Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Improving the usage of help.libreoffice.org site
On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 12:15 AM, Donald Rogers donr2...@clear.net.nz wrote: If we are to continue to have both the Help menu help and help.libreoffice.org help, can someone write some code to generate the help.libreoffice.org help from the same .po files that are used for the Help menu help? I thought we already do exactly *that*? And I don't understand why you see having many support channels as a problem. -- Adolfo -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] irk chat on website
2013/2/17 Jonathan Aquilina eagles051...@gmail.com: No need to code anything take a look at qwebirc, its python based. That way those that don't have an irc client can still join without needing an irc client or an account. I do not think you understood, I included qwbirc but it is only in English. Since I am working on a localized site I would prefer a localized web irc client. Are you suggesting to use a special switch with qwebirc so it starts talking Slovenian? If so, what would that flag be? Thanks, m. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
RE: [libreoffice-l10n] irk chat on website
Ahh my apologies for the misunderstanding. It seems like they have their own irc channel where you should get better help in regards to the localization into your language here http://qwebirc.org/irc -Original Message- From: martin.srebotn...@gmail.com [mailto:martin.srebotn...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Martin Srebotnjak Sent: 17 February 2013 10:11 To: Jonathan Aquilina Cc: Valter Mura; l10n@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] irk chat on website 2013/2/17 Jonathan Aquilina eagles051...@gmail.com: No need to code anything take a look at qwebirc, its python based. That way those that don't have an irc client can still join without needing an irc client or an account. I do not think you understood, I included qwbirc but it is only in English. Since I am working on a localized site I would prefer a localized web irc client. Are you suggesting to use a special switch with qwebirc so it starts talking Slovenian? If so, what would that flag be? Thanks, m. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Improving the usage of help.libreoffice.org site
Hi Donald, On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Donald Rogers donr2...@clear.net.nz wrote: It seems to me that there is a lot of duplication of effort and fragmentation of the help. We have at least the following: LO Help from the Help menu help.libreoffice.org Those are identical. That's the whole point of help.libreoffice.org wiki.documentfoundation.org this is more developer / active contributer oriented and less for endusers, although stuff is published there. But there's another discussion (or actually in this thread, I lost track) about not abusing wiki to publish large files, etc. the guides FAQ How can these be extra points when these are hosted on the mentioned sites? ask.libreoffice.org A user-helps-user platform, no static documentation, but answeres/solutions for specific problems. You cannot cover every cornercase in regular documentation. accessibility info features See above, not really belong here as separate points, as they are found on sites. Otherwise you could just make separate bulletpoints for whetever you like. But the new-features page surely is also a marketing tool. installation instructions Nobody reads those anyway :-) But what is wrong with having those? mailing lists similar to ask.libreoffice.org, but most mailinglists are for coordination of active contributors. And while ask.libreoffice.org is fine for easy problems, more complex ones are better off on the maiing list. Nabble That's just an interface to the mailinglists. Not everybody likes using their mailclient. And you forgot gmane/newsgroup interface, that also is an additional way to access/participate in the mailing lists. IRC (near) real-time discussion - so again a different scope, useful for different stuff than the other ways to get help. You did happily mix passive sources of information with interactive stuff... The guides are very good but to localize them requires not just translation and adaption, but also all the screen shots and other pictures need to be redone for each language. This would be a huge task. There are no guides yet for version 4.0. The principles of usage are the same, so no big deal really... And whether you do the screen shots or not is also a matter of taste... But doing screenshots of dialogs is getting easier and easier thanks to the gladification of the UI. If we are to continue to have both the Help menu help and help.libreoffice.org help, can someone write some code to generate the help.libreoffice.org help from the same .po files that are used for the Help menu help? That was already answered help.libreoffice.org is what is in the help-module. What sort of help is meant to be in the wiki? See above. I see it mainly as a source for information for active contributors/developers, less so for the enduser. Is there any possible synergy between the FAQ and ask.libreoffice.org? Are they to be localized too? well, apart from people monitoring what kind of questions get asked the most on ask.libreoffice.org, there is no synergy. Questions are too widespread/too special in most cases. LO apparently doesn't have the people power to keep even the English helps up to date, let alone all the other languages. Some of the localization teams are very small and can't keep up with even one of the help systems. Please explain / give an example what you are talking about here. I hate statements like that. The Wiki is easier to work with than the CMS. What CMS please. There are tons of them. ciao Christian -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Improving the usage of help.libreoffice.org site
Hi :) The Published Guides are hosted on the wiki but they are very different from the wiki. With the Guides it is easy to see exactly which release of LibreOffice they were written for. Also easy to see how recent (or old) each book is. Also all the pages in a chapter, or even the entire book, are all written for the same version of LIbreOffice so users can extrapolate easily. All the other forms of help have a high chance of being inconsistent even within a page. Also words may be used differently or different words used for the same thing. For example are the buttons on the icon-bar buttons or icons or even tools? How about on the keyboard? Is there an on/off button on your keyboard? The documentation team agrees on what terms to use in order to be consistent throughout the guides. For screen-shots they avoid shots done on Windows as there might be possible problems with MS's EULA. Legal experts have advised in both directions so it's easier to be safe than to potentially have to deal with a problem later on. However they also follow the principles of Release early and release often so each release may not be 100% perfect but they do get closer to it. So if i were involved in doing the translations then i would leave updating the screen-shots to the 2nd release or subsequent version in any particular language. Of course some teams may find they have a person that figures out how to do them quickly and manages to race through the whole lot quite quickly. Similarly with the quality of the translations. As the bulk of the guides remain much the same from one release to the next it's possible to just gradually increase the quality over the course of a few new releases. Regards from Tom :) From: Christian Lohmaier lohmaier+ooofut...@googlemail.com To: Donald Rogers donr2...@clear.net.nz Cc: LibreOffice-l10n l10n@global.libreoffice.org; website+h...@global.libreoffice.org Sent: Sunday, 17 February 2013, 12:15 Subject: Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Improving the usage of help.libreoffice.org site Hi Donald, On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Donald Rogers donr2...@clear.net.nz wrote: It seems to me that there is a lot of duplication of effort and fragmentation of the help. We have at least the following: LO Help from the Help menu help.libreoffice.org Those are identical. That's the whole point of help.libreoffice.org wiki.documentfoundation.org this is more developer / active contributer oriented and less for endusers, although stuff is published there. But there's another discussion (or actually in this thread, I lost track) about not abusing wiki to publish large files, etc. the guides FAQ How can these be extra points when these are hosted on the mentioned sites? ask.libreoffice.org A user-helps-user platform, no static documentation, but answeres/solutions for specific problems. You cannot cover every cornercase in regular documentation. accessibility info features See above, not really belong here as separate points, as they are found on sites. Otherwise you could just make separate bulletpoints for whetever you like. But the new-features page surely is also a marketing tool. installation instructions Nobody reads those anyway :-) But what is wrong with having those? mailing lists similar to ask.libreoffice.org, but most mailinglists are for coordination of active contributors. And while ask.libreoffice.org is fine for easy problems, more complex ones are better off on the maiing list. Nabble That's just an interface to the mailinglists. Not everybody likes using their mailclient. And you forgot gmane/newsgroup interface, that also is an additional way to access/participate in the mailing lists. IRC (near) real-time discussion - so again a different scope, useful for different stuff than the other ways to get help. You did happily mix passive sources of information with interactive stuff... The guides are very good but to localize them requires not just translation and adaption, but also all the screen shots and other pictures need to be redone for each language. This would be a huge task. There are no guides yet for version 4.0. The principles of usage are the same, so no big deal really... And whether you do the screen shots or not is also a matter of taste... But doing screenshots of dialogs is getting easier and easier thanks to the gladification of the UI. If we are to continue to have both the Help menu help and help.libreoffice.org help, can someone write some code to generate the help.libreoffice.org help from the same .po files that are used for the Help menu help? That was already answered help.libreoffice.org is what is in the help-module. What sort of help is meant to be in the wiki? See above. I see it mainly as a source for information for active contributors/developers, less so for the enduser. Is there any possible synergy between the FAQ and
[libreoffice-l10n] i18ned entry of numbers within LibreOffice
(Please keep me and Zolnai in CC in this discussion. Thanks.) In the context of https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/1994 Zolnai is contributing a nice feature to LibreOffice Base, but in the review of the patch I'm hitting what should be a simple issue: how to get a number (or special value All) from the user? My assumption is that in some locales we should allow the user to use other digits that the ASCII 0-9 (byte values 0x30 to 0x39). I *think* Zolnai's patch does this right, but could someone please check it out from this POV? Thanks in advance. Maybe there is even simpler (as in more code reuse instead of reinventing the wheel), and there is a vcl class that we can just derive from to get a number entry box? But we also need a special value All, so maybe Zolnai did it the simplest way possible already :) One question I'm less sure about: In the non-ASCII digit locales, is there any reason to reject ASCII digits? Should we do that? In all these questions, if we do the same as the other number entries in LibreOffice (e.g. font size, configuration of undo stack depth, ...), then I'm happy. I'm not trying to do better. Thanks in advance for the help, -- Lionel -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to l10n+h...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/l10n/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Improving the usage of help.libreoffice.org site
Hi Christian Thank you and Adolfo for your replies. My main point was simply the huge amount of work and that small teams are trying to do. (EO team in my case). Obviously we have to prioritize our tasks. I am trying to get a better feel for what is most important. We have the UI done, but the help is at about 40% done. I have stopped working on it because I found that some of the menus have changed in LO 4.0 and I personally don't want to translate stuff now and have to do it again when the help has been updated for v 4.0. On 18/02/2013, at 1:15 AM, Christian Lohmaier wrote: Hi Donald, On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 7:15 AM, Donald Rogers donr2...@clear.net.nz wrote: It seems to me that there is a lot of duplication of effort and fragmentation of the help. We have at least the following: LO Help from the Help menu help.libreoffice.org Those are identical. That's the whole point of help.libreoffice.org That's good. (I mostly use the menu help) wiki.documentfoundation.org this is more developer / active contributer oriented and less for endusers, although stuff is published there. But there's another discussion (or actually in this thread, I lost track) about not abusing wiki to publish large files, etc. the guides FAQ How can these be extra points when these are hosted on the mentioned sites? They all add to the work that could be done. ask.libreoffice.org A user-helps-user platform, no static documentation, but answeres/solutions for specific problems. You cannot cover every cornercase in regular documentation. accessibility info features See above, not really belong here as separate points, as they are found on sites. Otherwise you could just make separate bulletpoints for whetever you like. But the new-features page surely is also a marketing tool. installation instructions Nobody reads those anyway :-) But what is wrong with having those? I am not saying there is anything wrong with having them. They have to be accessible before installing LO, so obviously aren't part of the menu help. mailing lists similar to ask.libreoffice.org, but most mailinglists are for coordination of active contributors. And while ask.libreoffice.org is fine for easy problems, more complex ones are better off on the maiing list. Nabble That's just an interface to the mailinglists. Not everybody likes using their mailclient. And you forgot gmane/newsgroup interface, that also is an additional way to access/participate in the mailing lists. IRC (near) real-time discussion - so again a different scope, useful for different stuff than the other ways to get help. You did happily mix passive sources of information with interactive stuff... Each has a separate focus, as I see it. The guides are very good but to localize them requires not just translation and adaption, but also all the screen shots and other pictures need to be redone for each language. This would be a huge task. There are no guides yet for version 4.0. I just checked. EN has guides for 3.4, 3.5, 3.6 or 4.0, and ID has the full set of about 80 documents for LO 3.3, 3.4 or 3.5. FR has 36 (by my count) for LO 3.5 or 3.6. All other languages apparently have none. (I looked on wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Publications/fr and equivalent pages.) The principles of usage are the same, so no big deal really... And whether you do the screen shots or not is also a matter of taste... But doing screenshots of dialogs is getting easier and easier thanks to the gladification of the UI. What is gladification? If we are to continue to have both the Help menu help and help.libreoffice.org help, can someone write some code to generate the help.libreoffice.org help from the same .po files that are used for the Help menu help? That was already answered help.libreoffice.org is what is in the help-module. What sort of help is meant to be in the wiki? See above. I see it mainly as a source for information for active contributors/developers, less so for the enduser. Is there any possible synergy between the FAQ and ask.libreoffice.org? Are they to be localized too? well, apart from people monitoring what kind of questions get asked the most on ask.libreoffice.org, there is no synergy. Questions are too widespread/too special in most cases. LO apparently doesn't have the people power to keep even the English helps up to date, let alone all the other languages. Some of the localization teams are very small and can't keep up with even one of the help systems. Please explain / give an example what you are talking about here. I hate statements like that. LO is about to publish version 4.0.1 but we have not yet finished the help for 4.0.0. The Wiki is easier to work with than the CMS. What CMS please. There are tons of them. I refered to the Silverstripe CMS that we use in xx.libreoffice.org. This is not an important point, and I am
