Re: [lace] Bobbin lace in Celtic nations?

[Brenda Paternoster]

Malvary, I think you have got it spot on.

Brenda
>
> I might suggest finding a nice Celtic knot pattern and working that. Whether
people in Celtic nations ever made such a thing (probably not) isn't really
the point, it is to give the feel of the designs and for people to see lace
being made so that they have a good time while they are there.

Brenda in Allhallows
paternos...@appleshack.com
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

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Re: [lace] Bobbin lace in Celtic nations?

[Malvary Cole]

It seems to me that while it is good for Sally to find out about lace in 
Celtic nations, there probably won't be much time for her to pass on the 
information she has gleaned to the people who are wandering about.  What 
they will be interested in, is to see her making lace.


I might suggest finding a nice Celtic knot pattern and working that. 
Whether people in Celtic nations ever made such a thing (probably not) isn't 
really the point, it is to give the feel of the designs and for people to 
see lace being made so that they have a good time while they are there.


Just my two cents worth

Malvary in Ottawa where it is supposed to go up to 12c today (get rid of 
more of my snow banks).


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Re: [lace] Bobbin lace in Celtic nations?

[Clay Blackwell]

Reading Brenda's knowledgeable review of the apparent absence of lacemaking in 
Celtic regions reminds me of something I have seen for years in Virginia!  
Reenactment of  Civil War battles were all over the entire country in recent 
years, and reenactors were everywhere!  The problem is, lots of women wanted to 
get in on the fun, and so they dressed themselves in hoop skirts and sat on the 
sidelines making bobbin lace!  That was so wrong in so many ways!  Women,during 
the civil war, and especially near battlefields, did not make lace!  They 
struggled to provide food and shelter for their families and certainly did not 
have the time or interest in lacemaking.  Remember that machine lace had become 
available by that point, and Lacemaking by hand was quickly becoming a lost 
art.  It was not until a few decades after the end of the war that Europeans 
revived the lost art, and it was years later before American women caught on.  

I think that in our enthusiasm to share this wonderful work, we really need to 
provide accurate information.

Clay
Struggling now to "get off of my high horse" in Lynchburg, VA

Sent from my iPad

> 
>> 
>> I'd like to find some information about bobbin lace specifically in the
>> Celtic nations (officially: Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Isle of Man, Brittany
>> [northwest corner of France], and Cornwall, and some lists also include
>> Galicia in northern Spain). Can someone recommend a book or other source of
>> such information? All I've found online is about Ireland, and not very much
>> of that.
> 
> 

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Re: [lace] Bobbin lace in Celtic nations? - a brief history lesson!

[Brenda Paternoster]

Being Celtic is a cultural thing, not a genetic identity or a political
nationality.

At the time of the last glacial maximum (ice age) human populations in Europe
were confined to three small area; the Atlantis (modern Ukraine), the Balkans
(modern Greece) and Iberia  (modern Basque region of Spain).  The three groups
were separate long enough that natural genetic mutations made them into
genetically distinct groups.  Then when the ice retreated, about 10,000 years
ago the populations expanded northwards.  Those in Atlantis populated eastern
Europe, those in the Balkans populated central Europe, including Greece and
the Roman Empire and some got as far north as Scandinavia.  The people from
Iberia populated western Europe including Britain.  Melting ice and a tsunami
around 8,200 years separated Britain and Ireland from mainland Europe and the
people here became the ancient Britons from late stone age through the bronze
age and the iron age, but they were genetically the same as those in modern
Spain. France, Germany etc.  Archaeology shows that there was trading with the
continent and there could have been some inter-breeding with genetically
similar people, but it was not an age of literacy.

Julius Ceaser invaded Britain in 55BC and Britain came under Roman rule from
43AD-410AD but although they left a lot of technology the Romans (mid European
originating from the Balkans) were a separate ruling class and did not
inter-marry with the ancient Britons.  There is very little Roman DNA in the
indigenous population of the British Isles.  When the Romans left there was a
void in the leadership of the islands and that’s when there were lots of
small invasions from all over western Europe,  Angles and Jutes from modern
Denmark and Saxons from modern Germany became the Anglo-Saxons who took over,
and interbred with the ancient Britons in what is now eastern and  southern
England.  People from modern Spain and southern France (the Keltoi tribes)
moved across to western England, north through Wales, Cumbria and western
Scotland.  They also went to Ireland and the Isle of Man.  These were the
Celts and they too intermarried with the ancient Britons - but as all of these
people had originated from the ice-age population in Iberia it is very
difficult, if not impossible, for geneticists to distinguish between them.  On
the other hand Viking genes from northern Scandinavia can be identified in
northern Scotland and some parts of Ireland.

It seems to be the language as much as anything which identifies a group of
people as Celtic - and that’s why Gallacia in northern Spain is not always
considered to be Celtic; the language there died out and Spanish took its
place.  The ancient British language, which was never written down, died out
and the germanic languages of the Angles and Saxons became Old English and
developed through middle English into Modern English.  On the western side of
the British Isles  the incoming Celtic languages, although similar, remained
distinct, but they too replaced the language of the ancient Britons.  Welsh,
Breton and Cornish are in the Britannic group of Celtic and Manx, Scots Gaelic
and Irish Gaelic are in the Goidelic group.  All of these languages remained
as first languages for some people until about the 20th century when English
gradually took over but all the Celtic regions are keen to keep their historic
languages alive.

Lacemaking is much more recent and doesn’t follow the same patterns.  Bobbin
lace goes back to about the 16th century and it is debatable as to whether it
came over from Flanders (northern France/Belgium) or developed independently
in England.  There are only two main areas of England where BL was made; the
east Midlands which is firmly in the Anglo-Saxon area and Honiton in Devon
which was part of the Cornish Celtic area.  Most of Britain does not have any
traditional bobbin lace although embroidery, and hence embroidered laces, was
widespread and done mostly by upper class ladies and by nuns who had the time
to devote to their needlework.  There is no tradition of bobbin lace elsewhere
in the British Isles.

http://atlantis-today.com/Atlantis_Ice_Age.htm
https://vieilleeurope.wordpress.com/2011/05/27/restart-of-europe-after-last-i
ce-age/
https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0315/180315-fine-scale-british-isle-
genetic-map

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/primaryhistory/anglo_saxons/who_were_the_anglo-s
axons/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages

Brenda in Allhallows
paternos...@appleshack.com
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

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[lace] Bobbin lace in Celtic nations

[Jane Partridge]

You haven't mentioned any time period - is the demonstration meant to reflect
what is being done in the regions regarded as having a Celtic past now, or in
historical times? If now, then you could probably make more or less anything
as most modern lacemakers don't worry about only working the lace previously
made in their town or region. If it is historical, then you need to consult
the history books (you might find something like Martine Bruggeman's book
L'Europe de la Dentelle useful, if you can read French) as to what was being
made in the period you are trying to represent. A lot of the laces we know now
(Limmerick,  and Bedfordshire being two that spring to mind) developed from
other lace techniques in the 19th Century. Tatting is reckoned to be 19th,
with its origins in knotting. Needlelace and bobbin lace in general go back
further. Just because there isn't a traditional history of lacemaking in a
town or region doesn't mean that lace wasn't being made there - one member of
my husband's family (a large Bedfordshire lacemaking family) lived and worked
in Oswestry, which is on the Welsh border. We know that lace was used as a
means of earning an income by agricultural workers during the winter, and we
also know that (once the English feudal system was out of the way) the field
workers travelled to find work, so may have taken their lace with them. (I was
always under the impression that our ancesters "stayed put" until I discovered
that my 4xGr Grandfather was a mail coach driver, and he moved from Devises to
Coventry!).
In a message dated 3/11/2016 4:30:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
dansing...@gmail.com writes:Hello all,In 2 months I will be demonstrating
bobbin lace at a Celtic Festival. Mostof the festival involves music and
dance, but the organizers wanted somefiber arts too, so here I go.

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Re: [lace] Bobbin lace in Celtic nations?

[Brenda Paternoster]

Ireland doesn’t have any tradition of bobbin lace - but they do have some
wonderful needle laces ; Youghal, Carric-ma-Cross, Limerick….

Scotland doesn’t have any tradition of bobbin lace, but the Shetland Isles
(norse rather than Celtic) have lovely knitted lace.  Also Ayrshire work which
is between needlelace and fine embroidery.

Wales doesn’t have any tradition of bobbin lace either; their fibre crafts
are mostly weaving.

Cornwall doesn’t have any tradition of bobbin lace, but just across the
county border into Devon (just about into the Celtic region) is Honiton.  A
huge amount of bobbin lace was made in the villages around Monition, but also
in the area Branscombe Point needle lace was made.

Isle of Man doesn’t have any lace traditions.

Brittany has the elaborate lace head dresses, but they seem to be made from
all sorts of laces - bobbin, needle, machine.  It’s not a traditional
lacemaking area.

Galicia is most definitely a Celtic region, but again I don’t think they
have any tradition of bobbin lace.

Brenda

>
> I'd like to find some information about bobbin lace specifically in the
> Celtic nations (officially: Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Isle of Man, Brittany
> [northwest corner of France], and Cornwall, and some lists also include
> Galicia in northern Spain). Can someone recommend a book or other source of
> such information? All I've found online is about Ireland, and not very much
> of that.

Brenda in Allhallows
paternos...@appleshack.com
www.brendapaternoster.co.uk

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Re: [lace] Bobbin lace in Celtic nations?

[Jeriames]

Dear Sally,
 
Do you belong to any local lace guild?  Do they have a  lending library, or 
helpful local members
 
It is amazing that you cannot find information.  Have you looked  at the 
IOLI website's library listings?  Books are available for  borrowing, which is 
one of the valuable benefits of membership.  Many have  donated books (and 
videos), making it easy for American lacemakers to study  in the comfort of 
their homes.  
 
http://www.internationalorganizationoflace.org/Library/library.html  
 
Select the Bobbin Lace option.
 
Jeri Ames in Maine USA
Lace and Embroidery Resource Center
- 
 
In a message dated 3/11/2016 4:30:12 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
dansing...@gmail.com writes:

Hello  all,

In 2 months I will be demonstrating bobbin lace at a Celtic  Festival. Most
of the festival involves music and dance, but the organizers  wanted some
fiber arts too, so here I go.

I'd like to find some  information about bobbin lace specifically in the
Celtic nations  (officially: Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Isle of Man, Brittany
[northwest  corner of France], and Cornwall, and some lists also include
Galicia in  northern Spain). Can someone recommend a book or other source of
such  information? All I've found online is about Ireland, and not very much
of  that.

Thank you,
Sally

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Re: [lace] Bobbin lace in Celtic nations?

[Debora Lustgarten]

Well, I've seen pictures of beautiful traditional lace coifs in 
Brittany, and with Galicia alone, you have an enormous bobbin lace 
industry. And, yes, it has very strong Celtic roots!

Best of luck,

Debora Lustgarten

At 04:29 PM 3/11/2016, you wrote:

Hello all,

In 2 months I will be demonstrating bobbin lace at a Celtic Festival. Most
of the festival involves music and dance, but the organizers wanted some
fiber arts too, so here I go.

I'd like to find some information about bobbin lace specifically in the
Celtic nations (officially: Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Isle of Man, Brittany
[northwest corner of France], and Cornwall, and some lists also include
Galicia in northern Spain). Can someone recommend a book or other source of
such information? All I've found online is about Ireland, and not very much
of that.

Thank you,
Sally in western Oregon, where the daffodils are in full bloom

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[lace] Bobbin lace in Celtic nations?

[Sally Jenkins]

Hello all,

In 2 months I will be demonstrating bobbin lace at a Celtic Festival. Most
of the festival involves music and dance, but the organizers wanted some
fiber arts too, so here I go.

I'd like to find some information about bobbin lace specifically in the
Celtic nations (officially: Ireland, Wales, Scotland, Isle of Man, Brittany
[northwest corner of France], and Cornwall, and some lists also include
Galicia in northern Spain). Can someone recommend a book or other source of
such information? All I've found online is about Ireland, and not very much
of that.

Thank you,
Sally in western Oregon, where the daffodils are in full bloom

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