Re: [lace] Securing knots in silk - conservation comments

2018-09-29 Thread Malvary Cole
I don't have any experience with this and wonder if anyone has asked Bart 
and Francis if they have any recommendations on how to finish off the knots.


Malvary in Ottawa where it is a lovely sunny day, so different from last 
weekend when the area was hit by 6 tornadoes.


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[lace] Securing knots in silk - conservation comments

2018-09-29 Thread Jeri Ames
If you work with slippery silk, please read last paragraphs (below).
Did the regular list of members receive the reply sent to Liz in North
Carolina yesterday?  The people on my bcc list (including myself) got it. 
However, AOL sent me a reject message because I put www in front of
lace@arachne.com,   

If you know someone using gmail who does not get what I write, that is an
Arachne programming issue.  To get around that, I have a private bcc list. 
Send a request directly to me.  Bcc messages do not show your address to any
other people.  Cc messages do.
Remember to search the AOL archives when backed into a corner. 
http://www.mail-archive.com/lace@arachne.com/index.html

Just searched "knotting silk" and got a couple old silk tying off messages
right at the top, no mention of paste, from Jane Partridge and Sue Babbs. 
Sue referred back to advice from David (Australia).  Lacemakers, if you work
with slippery silk, why not do a short test today of what they said compared
to what you do, and report back to Arachne giving silk manufacturer's name and
describing the knot?  (By the way, Sue has been bcc'd because she uses
gmail.)

Original question and comments to Liz are below, for those who did not receive
yesterday's letter from me.  Sorry Avital, but I do not know if regular
subscribers received yesterday's letter.
Jeri Ames in Maine USALace and Embroidery Resource
Center--
 In a message dated 9/27/2018 10:16:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
lbuy...@nc.rr.com writes:
I have a question about the best way to secure knots in silk thread?  I have
just finished a piece from the "Into a Circle" pattern pack using Bart and
Francis flat silk thread.  I have done the sewings and tied a surgeons
knot.  I have not cut off the bobbins yet and I can see that some of the
knots are beginning to open up.
In Japanese Embroidery a dab of wheat paste is used to make sure nothing
slips.  But I can hear Jeri gasping in horror from here!
Do any of you have any suggestions?  Thank you, Liz R, Raleigh, NC
--Dear Liz
in North Carolina (3 states north of Florida),
Location is explained for non-Americans who might not be able to identify
NC.  Raleigh is located inland.  To conservation experts, climate matters. 
With this explanation you can relate to weather maps seen on the news.
The advice to weave cut ends of threads back into the lace as invisibly as
possible sounds like a good choice to me.  Change direction once if able to
do so, before you cut.
I will not gasp about the use of wheat paste, Liz.  That is what I used when
I took Japanese silk and metal embroidery lessons.  However, this form of
embroidery was stitched on silk material that had an underlining of firm
cotton.  The cotton served as a barrier so paste did not seep through to silk
material.
Conservation begins when an object is 1) designed and 2) the materials for
making it are selected.  You have no idea how any purchased fiber has been
processed and made into thread, and what may be embedded deep in the fibers. 
Silk thread choice of slippery or matte depends on the visual effect you
want.  Since it is traditionally used in the Orient, follow the lead of
millions of professionals who have used silk - for centuries.  Some of the
best silk works ever created (usually for royalty) have survived for a long
time.  Even longer, when found in sealed tombs and ice caves where air did
not affect them. 

In the present, there are decisions to make.  Will you ever want to wash the
lace?  If so, no paste!   The lace belongs to you.  Choose wheat- or
rice-based powders and make into paste with distilled water, if you absolutely
feel it is necessary.  That depends, of course, on how the silk lace will be
used.  (Some old silk laces in my collection were starched - potato-based -
and dipped in tea, which are other questionable practices.  I have soaked
them in distilled water to restore them to being softer and of a creamy
color.  There have been no bad results that might be caused by pasted knots
because paste was probably never used when these old laces were made.)  If
you must use paste, Liz, I would advise against those sold in craft stores. 
Formulas change constantly and have not been time-tested on lace.  

Please remember what I have advised about lace conservation concerns.  Make a
small throw-away "doodle" piece using threads you will use in the larger
project.  Test knots and paste or glue on that.  It will not be totally
fool-proof, because food-based substances will change in character over
time.  Oxidation will darken them.  Wheat or rice pastes are edible, and may
attract microcosms looking for a meal.  If critters "nibble" they weaken
threads.  There are no guarantees even though you try to follow best possible
advice from conservators.   Choose what you know to be best for 

Re: [lace] Securing knots in silk

2018-09-27 Thread Adele Shaak
Hi Liz:

If you’ve done Japanese embroidery and have finished it with wheat paste, then 
you will know whether or not the paste will show. It might depend on the colour 
of thread you’ve used. Even clear glue will make a noticeable dark spot on the 
thread; I don’t think wheat paste will do that. However, - wheat paste works by 
stiffening the fibers, and if the piece is worn or repeatedly flexed for some 
reason, the wheat paste will break down. And of course if you wash the lace it 
will come out. So if you’re going to frame your piece and put it on the wall, 
the wheat paste will probably work just fine, but if you’ll wear it, maybe it 
won’t work so well.

As you no doubt know from your Japanese embroidery, if you stitch silk through 
itself the scales catch on one another and the thread will not slip away from 
that. You could put each thread through a needle and stitch it through any 
other thread to hold it. Of course that’s pretty tedious and there’s a strong 
chance you won’t be able to stitch so many threads without in some way pulling 
the silk out of alignment. 

Each method has its pros and cons; I think if you’re just planning this as a 
show piece you could easily firm up the knots with wheat paste and leave it at 
that.

Hope this helps.

Adele
West Vancouver, BC
(west coast of Canada)

> I have a question about the best way to secure knots in silk thread?
> 
> I have just finished a piece from the "Into a Circle" pattern pack using Bart 
> and Francis flat silk thread.  I have done the sewings and tied a surgeons 
> knot.  I have not cut off the bobbins yet and I can see that some of the 
> knots are beginning to open up.
> 
> In Japanese Embroidery a dab of wheat paste is used to make sure nothing 
> slips.  But I can hear Jeri gasping in horror from here!
> 
> Do any of you have any suggestions?
> Thank you,

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Re: [lace] Securing knots in silk

2018-09-27 Thread Sue Babbs

I usually darn the ends in with silk, after the following knot:

1 right over left and under; right over left and under  (ie two wraps here)
2 left over right and under

then sometimes step 3 too: a further right over left and under

Glue can show on silk, because it seems to be absorb even a drop of glue 
more quickly than cotton does, so more glue seems to wick into silk




Sue

suebabbs...@gmail.com

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[lace] Securing knots in silk

2018-09-27 Thread Lbuyred
I have a question about the best way to secure knots in silk thread?

I have just finished a piece from the "Into a Circle" pattern pack using Bart 
and Francis flat silk thread.  I have done the sewings and tied a surgeons 
knot.  I have not cut off the bobbins yet and I can see that some of the knots 
are beginning to open up.

In Japanese Embroidery a dab of wheat paste is used to make sure nothing slips. 
 But I can hear Jeri gasping in horror from here!

Do any of you have any suggestions?
Thank you,
Liz R, Raleigh, NC

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