Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
Jackie Fellows [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ron Yes, but there is also a common phrase in statistics--when you see an outlier, it is best to examine it closely--it may hold the key to a lot of things we don't understand at the present time. It seems that in the medical profession it is the anomaly that often leads to discoveries in medicine, just like in any other area of life. I guess just because it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it doesn't mean automatically it is a duck. jackief IOW there really is a platypus. When it was first described it was considered hilarious. Best, Terry Hi Terry You got it!! jackief "Lawyer - one trained to circumvent the law" - The Devil's Dictionary Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues -- In the sociology room the children learn that even dreams are colored by your perspective I toss and turn all night.Theresa Burns, "The Sociology Room" Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (William J. Foristal) writes: On Mon, 27 Apr 1998 21:44:56 EDT DocCec [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: DocCec [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 98-04-27 17:27:34 EDT, you write: Oh, I did not intend that as a guess at why you have none :-). My first guess would be an umbilical herniorrhaphy. Now I still have two guesses left :-) Ron Got it in one. At birth, so I've never really had a belly button, innie or outie. Surely that makes me a deprived child, doesn't it, and excuses any awful things I do in future? Doc Hi Doc, It means you could go to the Naval Observatory and they would not see you. :) Bill _ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
DocCec [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 98-04-29 13:27:45 EDT, you write: Hi Doc, It means you could go to the Naval Observatory and they would not see you. :) Bill William, you are B-A-D!!! Doc Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
Kathy E [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Mike and All :) The one thing everyone should remember is though the links given are quite interesting, not everyone has web access so they can't read the pages that are being used for reference for this conversation, thus some have no idea what is being discussed, I suggest maybe a short description be offered in layman's terms of what this is :) I don't think people were quick to jump on the bandwagon of convicting anyone due to the number of children killed, this women confessed to the murders, her husband tried to come out with an excuse on why she confessed and why people should forget about the confession, it seems some here have decided to forget the confession. IMHO to use her case and circumstances as a possible way of enlightening people to mitochondria is not a example I personally would do, especially since she confessed to the murders, it would seem much better for all concerned to use a actual case of someone who was/is affected by this instead of a confessed killer. Mike wrote: Actually, I just want to see the truth come out in the Noe's case. Whether that leads to murder *or* a medical explanation, or even both. The support that I offered to the folks in Philly, came after I heard of the interest in the case by Dr. Robert Naviaux (founder of the MMDC at UCSD, and also assistant professor of internal medicine at UCSD) and Angie Longenecker (clinical nurse coordinator), both of the Mitochondrial and Metabolic Disease Center at the University of California, San Diego. I'd hate to see someone convicted of a crime just because folks *think* that they did it. -- Kathy E "I can only please one person a day, today is NOT your day, and tomorrow isn't looking too good for you either" http://members.delphi.com/kathylaw/ Law Issues Mailing List http://pw1.netcom.com/~kathye/rodeo.html - Cowboy Histories http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/2990/law.htm Crime photo's Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Hi Kathy,
Confessions may actually be the one kind of evidence worse than eyewitness
testimony for determining guilt or innocence. Case in point: the
confession of Jesse Misskelly of the West Memphis 3, a retarded boy who
thought he was excusing himself from the murders that created a wave of
satanic hysteria that gripped the town. Jesse had to be prompted over and
over to get the story right (e.g. the times had to go from the morning, to
noon, to early afternoon, to late afternoon). There was the more flippant
"confession" of Damien Echols to two cheerleaders ("yeah, I did it") if it
happened. Echols continued to show his sarcasm and contempt for the
proceeding and is sitting on death row. The three convicted are almost
certainly innocent.
I don't know if Mrs. Noe is guilty or not of murdering her children but
there is a hardening consensus of guilt that has nothing to do with the
state of the evidence IMO. It is part of a new wave of hysteria that says
SIDS infants are murdered. No doubt some have been but it is foolish to
deny the syndrome and to level accusations needlessly.
People are convicted of crimes because guilt is assumed. Just the way it
is, Kathy. The au pair case is the most recent example I know of. The best
experts available, who tesified for the defense, have been labeled
charlatans and paid liars, ivory tower types who know nothing of the real
world. They wrote the book on shaken baby syndrome. And once again we have
the supposed confession that wasn't.
Kathy E [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Hi Mike and All :)
The one thing everyone should remember is though the links given are
quite interesting, not everyone has web access so they can't read the
pages that are being used for reference for this conversation, thus some
have no idea what is being discussed, I suggest maybe a short
description be offered in layman's terms of what this is :)
I don't think people were quick to jump on the bandwagon of convicting
anyone due to the number of children killed, this women confessed to the
murders, her husband tried to come out with an excuse on why she
confessed and why people should forget about the confession, it seems
some here have decided to forget the confession.
IMHO to use her case and circumstances as a possible way of enlightening
people to mitochondria is not a example I personally would do,
especially since she confessed to the murders, it would seem much better
for all concerned to use a actual case of someone who was/is affected by
this instead of a confessed killer.
Mike wrote:
Actually, I just want to see the truth come out in the Noe's case. Whether
that leads to murder *or* a medical explanation, or even both. The support
that I offered to the folks in Philly, came after I heard of the interest
in the case by Dr. Robert Naviaux (founder of the MMDC at UCSD, and also
assistant professor of internal medicine at UCSD) and Angie Longenecker
(clinical nurse coordinator), both of the Mitochondrial and Metabolic
Disease Center at the University of California, San Diego.
I'd hate to see someone convicted of a crime just because folks *think*
that they did it.
--
Kathy E
"I can only please one person a day, today is NOT your day, and tomorrow
isn't looking too good for you either"
http://members.delphi.com/kathylaw/ Law Issues Mailing List
http://pw1.netcom.com/~kathye/rodeo.html - Cowboy Histories
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/2990/law.htm Crime photo's
Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Best, Terry
"Lawyer - one trained to circumvent the law" - The Devil's Dictionary
Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
"Mike" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Folks, I want to thank all of you for the opportunity to participate in this thread, especially Kathy. I'm a wee bit out of my element here as far as law issues goes, so I'm going to unsubscribe, but I wanted to make sure that you folk were aware that I was pleased with being able to discuss the Noe case with you. Kathy wrote: --- The one thing everyone should remember is though the links given are quite interesting, not everyone has web access so they can't read the snip --- Ouch... I keep forgetting that, thanks for the reminder, Kathy. --- snip confessed and why people should forget about the confession, it seems some here have decided to forget the confession. --- I hadn't forgotten about Marie's confession, but I kept in mind that mito folk can become quite paranoid and delusional from the deterioration of the brain. A confession would not have been out of line in this light, and quite understandable. --- IMHO to use her case and circumstances as a possible way of enlightening people to mitochondria is not a example I personally would do, snip --- If I gave the impression that this was my goal, Kathy, I humbly apologize. While I realized that there would be some exposure in the course of getting involved with the Noe case, it was never my intention of using my involvement to bring public attention to mitochondrial disorders (or Dr. Naviaux's either, I would hope.) If no one minds, I'll stay subscribed until tonight, and unsubscribe after 9:00 PM EST (US), just in case someone would like to respond to this post. Thanks for allowing me in, and for sharing your views. :-) TTFN Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
DocCec [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 98-04-27 22:32:56 EDT, you write: Hi Doc, You guys are killing me with your funny sayins! Vi Happy to be of service! Doc Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
DocCec [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 98-04-27 22:59:03 EDT, you write: I don't think that they had the Miranda Rights back then. I don't know why they didn't accept her confession, but they never did. Miranda or no Miranda, a confession is not evidence in law. Doc Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Viola Provenzano) writes: Hi Doc, Wrong, Doc, a confession may be considered evidence of guilt if it is made voluntarily and is consistent with the Miranda document. (Looked it up in a law dictionary) (ha). Vi "What the world needs more of is not love, but justice." Anon. __ You wrote: Miranda or no Mirandas a confession is not evidence in law. _ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Vi: Thanks. I'm glad to hear that. It seemed to me that a confession, legally obtained, should be allowed as evidence, but I didn't know. Sue Hi Doc, Wrong, Doc, a confession may be considered evidence of guilt if it is made voluntarily and is consistent with the Miranda document. (Looked it up in a law dictionary) (ha). Vi -- Two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. 2. Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
Jackie Fellows [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ronald Helm wrote: " TTFN Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is also a commonly used phrase in medicine, used to emphasize the fact that common things are common, rare things are rare. Child abuse is VERY common, mitochondrial disease is EXTREMELY rare. "When you hear the sounds of galloping hooves, think of horses, not zebras! Ron Hi Ron Yes, but there is also a common phrase in statistics--when you see an outlier, it is best to examine it closely--it may hold the key to a lot of things we don't understand at the present time. It seems that in the medical profession it is the anomaly that often leads to discoveries in medicine, just like in any other area of life. I guess just because it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, it doesn't mean automatically it is a duck. jackief 99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues -- In the sociology room the children learn that even dreams are colored by your perspective I toss and turn all night.Theresa Burns, "The Sociology Room" Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
"Mike" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Sue, It's very common for children with mito disorders to appear perfectly healthy for a time, anywhere from a few days to 11 or 12 years (in my wife's case, she had no obvious symptoms until the age of 26.) Children with these disorders can exhibit a wide or narrow range of a large group of symptoms, most of which can vary from very slight to life threatening. There's such a wide range of disorders that stem from mitochondrial problems (cerebal palsy, for instance is one of them), that the ratio of someone having a mito disorder is believed to be just 1 in 4000. Granted, 10 is the largest number of children that I've heard of possibly being lost due to a mito disorder, but I can also see where this could possibly happen due to the unique circumstances. The Noes hold to the beliefs of the Catholic church, so no birth control was practiced short of abstinence. Back in the 60's and 70's, mito disorders were unknown (when Karen, my wife, was diagnosed, there were fewer than 30 cases diagnosed world-wide; and this was in 1987), and genetics was an infant science. If there was a mito disorder involved, it could have very well taken the life of each of the children, and yet have been overlooked by the best medical minds available back then to the authorities. Even Mrs. Noe's apparent mental instability can be explained by the presence of a mito disorder. All this aside, I agree that all of the angles need to be examined, mito disorder or not. My personal concern stems from seeing all of the harassment that our own folk go through with medical professionals who still don't know enough about mito disorders. Some of them have even been accused of abusing/neglecting their children. I just want the Noe's to get a fair shake. TTFN Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Hi Kathy and Mike: I don't know what to think about this. I really don't. I guess there is a very good chance that this could be the answer, but what about the two that lived until they got home and then died within a very short snip --- Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
"Ronald Helm" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Some of them have even been accused of abusing/neglecting their children. I just want the Noe's to get a fair shake. TTFN Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] There is also a commonly used phrase in medicine, used to emphasize the fact that common things are common, rare things are rare. Child abuse is VERY common, mitochondrial disease is EXTREMELY rare. "When you hear the sounds of galloping hooves, think of horses, not zebras! Ron 99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
"Mike" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Ron, Mito disorders aren't "EXTREMELY" rare, just not diagnosed. 1 in 4000 is more common than pediatric cancer. Studies have shown that even aging is a process of the mitochondrial functions breaking down (Doug Wallace, Emory in Atlanta.) Because of this misconception, we've had parents put through horrendous situations by ignorant physicians who thought that they were 100% correct in their (mis)diagnosis. Folks have died as a result of this, we have children with permanent physical damage, and others have emotional scars that will take halfway to forever to heal because of well-meaning medical/social/protection services workers. TTFN Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- There is also a commonly used phrase in medicine, used to emphasize the fact that common things are common, rare things are rare. Child abuse is VERY common, mitochondrial disease is EXTREMELY rare. "When you hear the sounds of galloping hooves, think of horses, not zebras! Ron --- Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thanks, Mike. It is an old story. The one group of people that are most certainly guilty before proven innocent are parents. Our kindly government looks out for everyone else. "Mike" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Ron, Mito disorders aren't "EXTREMELY" rare, just not diagnosed. 1 in 4000 is more common than pediatric cancer. Studies have shown that even aging is a process of the mitochondrial functions breaking down (Doug Wallace, Emory in Atlanta.) Because of this misconception, we've had parents put through horrendous situations by ignorant physicians who thought that they were 100% correct in their (mis)diagnosis. Folks have died as a result of this, we have children with permanent physical damage, and others have emotional scars that will take halfway to forever to heal because of well-meaning medical/social/protection services workers. TTFN Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- There is also a commonly used phrase in medicine, used to emphasize the fact that common things are common, rare things are rare. Child abuse is VERY common, mitochondrial disease is EXTREMELY rare. "When you hear the sounds of galloping hooves, think of horses, not zebras! Ron --- Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues Best, Terry "Lawyer - one trained to circumvent the law" - The Devil's Dictionary Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
"Ronald Helm" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: http://www.neuro.wustl.edu/neuromuscular/mitosyn.html Actually much is known about mitochondrial disease and the above URL will tell all of you much more than you ever wanted to know about these rare disorders. For the Noe children to have all died in infancy, one would have to believe that they all inherited a congenital form of mitochondrial disease, and None of them would have been normal. My wife and I, in our combined 50 years of caring for newborns have seen only one child with this rare disorder, and the child was so sick that it died in the NICU, and was diagnosed at autopsy. These mitochondrial syndromes are being used to explain all of the disorders like Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, fibromyalgia, you name it. Blame your problems on "free radicals" mentality. No one wants to admit that some crazy woman killed all of her children. I doubt that exhumed tissues would be able to show whether any of these children had mitochondrial syndrome. 99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Mike: I'm not at all familiar with this type of thing. I think that Ron and his wife would be the ones who would be able to shed light on it. If this is an inherited type of thing, and the mother is exhibiting symptoms and/or signs of it, testing probably would be a good idea on her. But these deaths took place so long ago, that I doubt that they would be able to find out through exhumation and autopsy if this was the cause. Again I have to leave this up to someone who knows. Sue Hi Sue, It's very common for children with mito disorders to appear perfectly healthy for a time, anywhere from a few days to 11 or 12 years (in my wife's case, she had no obvious symptoms until the age of 26.) Children with these disorders can exhibit a wide or narrow range of a large group of symptoms, most of which can vary from very slight to life threatening. There's such a wide range of disorders that stem from mitochondrial problems (cerebal palsy, for instance is one of them), that the ratio of someone having a mito disorder is believed to be just 1 in 4000. Granted, 10 is the largest number of children that I've heard of possibly being lost due to a mito disorder, but I can also see where this could possibly happen due to the unique circumstances. The Noes hold to the beliefs of the Catholic church, so no birth control was practiced short of abstinence. Back in the 60's and 70's, mito disorders were unknown (when Karen, my wife, was diagnosed, there were fewer than 30 cases diagnosed world-wide; and this was in 1987), and genetics was an infant science. If there was a mito disorder involved, it could have very well taken the life of each of the children, and yet have been overlooked by the best medical minds available back then to the authorities. Even Mrs. Noe's apparent mental instability can be explained by the presence of a mito disorder. All this aside, I agree that all of the angles need to be examined, mito disorder or not. My personal concern stems from seeing all of the harassment that our own folk go through with medical professionals who still don't know enough about mito disorders. Some of them have even been accused of abusing/neglecting their children. I just want the Noe's to get a fair shake. TTFN -- Two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. 2. Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Terry: And children, especially the little ones, are the ones that get the least protection from the law, until it is too late sometimes. :( A baby's life doesn't seem to have any value when it comes to the law, IMO. Sue Thanks, Mike. It is an old story. The one group of people that are most certainly guilty before proven innocent are parents. Our kindly government looks out for everyone else. -- Two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. 2. Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
"Mike" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Ron wrote: --- snip disease, and None of them would have been normal. My wife and I, in our combined 50 years of caring for newborns have seen only one child with this rare disorder, and the child was so sick that it died in the NICU, and was diagnosed at autopsy. These mitochondrial syndromes are being used to explain all of the disorders like Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, fibromyalgia, you name it. Blame your problems on "free radicals" mentality. No one wants to admit that some crazy woman killed all of her children. I doubt that exhumed tissues would be able to show whether any of these children had mitochondrial syndrome. --- Ron, You might find it interesting to visit our website (address below in my signature). I've been dealing with mitochondrial disorders since 1982, and would never make a statement about mito disorders without solid evidence to back it up. I'm surprised that you based your conclusions on just that one child's diagnosis. There's a search results webpage at our website that includes 450 links to mito-related webpages, a page with links to other excellent mito-related websites, and downloadable PDF-format files on MELAS, the mito disorder that took my wife's life (and possibly the lives of three of our children, all at birth or just prior to it), and a short version of my wife's medical history. We have 127 families in our support listserv, the MMRD-List, quite a few with multiple children and the mother affected by their particular mito disorder. ... and ,yes, it would be well nigh impossible to exhume the bodies and diagnose a mito disorder. Please pardon the full signature... TTFN Mike Jackson, Director/Administrator --- MELAS Online Network the Following Listservs: MMRD-List -=- KIDS_MMRD-List -=- MITO_NET-List Dad to Mike, a tiggerrific son (11 nda), two Gerbils a Bunny Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - AOL IM ID: Mike MMRD MELAS Online Network: http://www.melas.org Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
"Ronald Helm" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Mike: I am now among the very special people who have visited your referenced website, thank you. As you know, there are inherited and acquired forms of mitochondrial disease and we certainly do not deny the existence of this disorder. However, to attempt to explain away the death of ten children in one child abuser's family, all of whom started out their childhood normal, and neither parent obviously died of this disease, by resorting to a hereditary disease ( which can never be proven) as the cause of these deaths is really a s-t-r-e-t-c-h. Is Noe a born again Christian? Ron If you're born again, do you have two bellybuttons? [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
DocCec [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 98-04-27 14:57:17 EDT, you write: If you're born again, do you have two bellybuttons? [EMAIL PROTECTED] I don't have even one. Now, go try to figure that one out! (I usually tell anyone who notices that I'm an android, but the last person I said that too freaked out and seemed to believe it, so I'd probably better get a new line.) Doc Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Ron: There is something here that is getting lost. She admitted to have killed them. She confessed to smothering them. Then took back her confession. Sue What kind of God would want a family to keep having children that would inherit a lethal anomaly? Mike, is the mode of inheritance for the inherited form of mitochondrial disease known? Is it autosomal dominant? Even if it is X linked recessive (could not be dominant or the mother would have it), only half of the children would likely inherit the disease. Ron -- Two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. 2. Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
"Ronald Helm" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Ron: Only eight of them died that way. One was still born, and another died within hours of birth in the hospital. They are Catholics and believe that God wanted them to keep having children. Sue What kind of God would want a family to keep having children that would inherit a lethal anomaly? Mike, is the mode of inheritance for the inherited form of mitochondrial disease known? Is it autosomal dominant? Even if it is X linked recessive (could not be dominant or the mother would have it), only half of the children would likely inherit the disease. Ron 99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
DocCec [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 98-04-27 15:12:25 EDT, you write: I don't have even one. Now, go try to figure that one out! Tummy tucks (abdominoplasties) would certainly be easier to do if the patients would be satisfied with having no belly button. Nowhere to put your salt when eating celery in bed. Ron Good guess, Ron, but wrong. Don't worry -- you get two more. Doc Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
"Ronald Helm" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Good guess, Ron, but wrong. Don't worry -- you get two more. Doc Oh, I did not intend that as a guess at why you have none :-). My first guess would be an umbilical herniorrhaphy. Now I still have two guesses left :-) Ron 99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
"Ronald Helm" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Ron: There is something here that is getting lost. She admitted to have killed them. She confessed to smothering them. Then took back her confession. Sue Of course she killed them, why would she confess if she hadn't. Just like that "Angel of Mercy" nurse confessed to killing all those patients, but the authorities can not just accept a confession. Sheesh. Uncoerced confessions, if Miranda Rights read, should be accepted and taken directly to a sentencing hearing. Ron 99 percent of lawyers give the rest a bad name. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
"Mike" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Ron, Just saw your post about your "downsizing" experience, and realized that I was explaining things to someone who already knows far more than I about genetics. Sorry 'bout that. TTFN Mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Viola Provenzano) writes: Hi Doc, You guys are killing me with your funny sayins! Vi __ You wrote: . . . I've never really had a belly button, innie or outie. Surely that makes me a deprived child, doesn't it, and excuses any awful things I do in future? Vi "What the world needs more of is not love, but justice." Anon. __ _ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
[Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
Hi all this was sent to me in email I thought you all would be interested in it also :) -- Kathy E "I can only please one person a day, today is NOT your day, and tomorrow isn't looking too good for you either" http://members.delphi.com/kathylaw/ Law Issues Mailing List http://pw1.netcom.com/~kathye/rodeo.html - Cowboy Histories http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/2990/law.htm Crime photo's (Please excuse the interruption, but I thought that this may present another angle on the Noe case. I tried to post this to the LI list, but I'm not a subscriber.) --- Letter posted to the Philadelphia Magazine --- Dear Ms. , The copy of the magazine arrived today, and I was most intrigued my Mr. Fried's story "Cradle To Grave". Thank you for the gift of the magazine. After reading Mr. Fried's article, "Cradle To Grave", I find myself agreeing with Dr. Robert Naviaux (founder of the MMDC at UCSD, and also assistant professor of internal medicine at UCSD) and Angie Longenecker (clinical nurse coordinator), both of the Mitochondrial and Metabolic Disease Center at the University of California, San Diego; that the Noe case has all of the hallmarks of a family possibly suffering from a mitochondrial myopathy-based or related disorder. All of the children's deaths could be consistent with the symptoms and complications associated with mitochondrial myopathy-based disorders, as can be shown by the various case histories of the 127 families in our Mitochondrial Myopathies and Related Disorders support group (listserv-based), the MMRD-List. Even my own wife's case would show similarities to the Noe's, with the loss of three children (one additional child survived, my son is currently 11 yo and symptom free, "nda", "not diagnosed with anything"), and her mental deterioration and death (in '92). One note, my wife's mental deterioration was much more pronounced than Mrs. Noe's. There is a downloadable PDF file at our website containing a condensed version of my wife's case history, should you or Mr. Fried desire to read it. I would not be adverse to presenting a survey of Mr. Fried's questions to our group should Mr. Fried desire to get their opinions on the Noe case. The group is already aware of the case via the Philadelphia Inquirer/Daily News articles of recent print. I also agree that it's possible that the blood test, and/or the fresh muscle biopsy test done by Dr. John Shoffner at Scottish Rites Children's Medical Center in Atlanta, GA. would be helpful to the current investigation. Unfortunately, neither test is 100% successful in diagnosing a mitochondrial disorder (though, in the opinion of our support group folk, the fresh muscle biopsy test is preferred over frozen muscle or the blood test.) Sincerely yours, Mike Jackson, Director/Administrator --- MELAS Online Network the Following Listservs: MMRD-List -=- KIDS_MMRD-List -=- MITO_NET-List Dad to Mike, a tiggerrific son (11 nda), two Gerbils a Bunny Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - AOL IM ID: Mike MMRD MELAS Online Network: http://www.melas.org
Re: [Fwd: LI Noe: Update]
Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Kathy and Mike: I don't know what to think about this. I really don't. I guess there is a very good chance that this could be the answer, but what about the two that lived until they got home and then died within a very short time. One being kept in the hospital for almost a year (if I remember correctly), the other for weeks. The doctors and hospital kept them there for their own protection even though they were both perfectly healthy. But finally had to release them due to legal reasons. The mother was at one time threatening to kill one of them because it wouldn't stop crying. The baby died. Both died shortly after getting home, although both were in perfect health when they left the hospital. Sue Hi all this was sent to me in email I thought you all would be interested in it also :) -- -- Two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. 2. Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI Noe: Update
Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Kathy: I haven't heard of blackouts with migraines either. That was my point. :) I guess it could happen, it is just that I have never heard of it. I was wondering if it could possibly have been some kind of "defense" that she was trying to make up at the time. Sort of like "I may have killed them during one of my blackouts". I do feel that most people would want to know exactly what killed their child or children, no matter how many years had passed. And if she and/or her husband are innocent of any wrong doing, I would think that they would welcome any investigation into this. Sue Hi Sue :) I agree it could be anything we just don't know yet, that is why I'm attempting to keep an open mind on this. I caught the migraine thing, I had one problem with it though, first off if you suffer migraines they have medicine you get, I'm not going to name the various medicines but the ones I was given when I had them were able to do a lot of different things, the first one you put under your tongue to stop it as soon as you felt it coming on, they also give you pain relievers to take when you feel it coming on, that will usually stop it, I also had injections that worked great, grant it I didn't like giving myself injections but that was better than going through a full scale migraine. Yes migraines are terrible and I know there were a couple of times I wished someone would shoot me due to the pain, and if they got real bad they would take me in the ER and hook you up to a IV and give you valium until things turned back to normal, but blackouts? I never had those at all, and I am wondering if that is normal, I hadn't heard of it before. Hell I would have loved to have a blackout and forget the pain, unfortunately that didn't happen. OTOH I am wondering is it possible she killed her babies when suffering migraines? Anything is possible in my mind right now. Concerning the husband, well sorry people don't forget about 8 babies dying for no reason or no explanation. -- Two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. 2. Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI Noe: Update
Kathy E [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Terry :) I know they do the autopsies, I had a next door neighbor who's daughter died of SIDS, she was six weeks old, Linda went into her room on Easter morning and the baby was dead, it was horrendous. Yet they never found out why she died, they did all known test, the baby just died. Yet what I am standing on in this case is known fact. A lot of cases that were ruled SIDS that have been reopened have been discovered to be murder instead. One of the cases I can think of off the top of my head I mentioned on here before a mother had a couple of her kids die of alleged SIDS, when the police decided to reinvestigate they found out through modern medical technology that she had suffocated the babies. Now you may wonder how was that missed at first? Well science has made leaps and bounds in recent years, before they didn't realize the things to look for in a baby when it suffocates, is bruising on the gums and inner lip, burst blood vessels in the nose and eyes and so on. Sure that sounds like common sense to us nowadays, but what is common sense now days wasn't 30 years ago, no one had compiled the data on what to look for, it was done and now we have a list of common injuries to look for in children's deaths. And yes this mother was convicted of murder. I don't believe all parent's of SIDS babies are killers, I do think SIDS is real, but I also realize from what I have seen it is rare to have more than one child die in a family of SIDS, and it is completely unheard of having 8 children die of SIDS in one family. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Kathy, In fact every case of SIDS is "checked into." Autopsies in cases of such deaths are routine. More "checking into" may be indicated at times no doubt. But considering every parent who has a crib death a likely murderer is not a great idea. Multiple SIDS deaths are not unknown. It took a very long time to get over the belief that all parents of such infants were killers. It is not great to take a backward step. -- Kathy E "I can only please one person a day, today is NOT your day, and tomorrow isn't looking too good for you either" http://members.delphi.com/kathylaw/ Law Issues Mailing List http://pw1.netcom.com/~kathye/rodeo.html - Cowboy Histories http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/2990/law.htm Crime photo's Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI Noe: Update
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Kathy, Child Abuse, Inc., seems to be whipping up another wave of hysteria since the last one about the imaginary wholesale sexual abuse of children in nursery schools ebbed. The parents of children who die of SIDS are particularly vulnerable. SIDS like other diseases, notably multiple sclerosis, is a disease of exclusion. The cause has never been found though there are numerous theories. That homicides have been attributed to SIDS should go without saying but the new wave of claims is going far beyond that, calling into question even the existence of SIDS. Kathy E [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Sue :) You did a message recently on this case here's the latest I saw: A lawyer says police used fear and force to make his client, 69-year-old Marie Noe, sign a confession that reportedly says she used a pillow to smother at least five of her 10 children -- all of whom died as infants. Prosecutors would not comment on the confession reported in the Philadelphia Daily News but confirmed they are investigating the tragic string of baby deaths that took place over 30 years ago. Lawyer David Rudenstein says Marie and Arthur Noe were brought in for questioning on March 25 by police following the publication of an article in Philadelphia magazine that suggested foul play was involved in the deaths. The article concluded the case would only solved by a confession. Rudenstein says Marie, who has only a fifth-grade education, was held against her will, even though she complained of headaches and has a history of migraines and blackouts. He says: ``She was told she was not allowed to leave until she had signed some papers. She would have signed a peace of paper saying she was the killer of Dr. King if that's what it took to leave.'' Each of the Noes' 10 children died between 1949 and 1968. One died shortly after birth, another was stillborn, and the rest died at home before they reached 15 months. Life Magazine did an article in 1962 that portrayed the Noe children as victims of crib death, known also as Sudden Infant Death Syndrome or SIDS. However, a number of officials connected with the Noe case tell Philadelphia magazine they suspected foul play in the deaths. Rudenstein says that every expert has an opinion, but there has never been any solid evidence against Maria Noe. He also cast doubt on the reports of her confession, saying, ``I don't know about other cities, but in Philadelphia they don't let people go after they confess to five murders.'' -- Kathy E "I can only please one person a day, today is NOT your day, and tomorrow isn't looking too good for you either" http://members.delphi.com/kathylaw/ Law Issues Mailing List http://pw1.netcom.com/~kathye/rodeo.html - Cowboy Histories http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/2990/law.htm Crime photo's Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues Best, Terry "Lawyer - one trained to circumvent the law" - The Devil's Dictionary Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI Noe: Update
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Kathy, In fact every case of SIDS is "checked into." Autopsies in cases of such deaths are routine. More "checking into" may be indicated at times no doubt. But considering every parent who has a crib death a likely murderer is not a great idea. Multiple SIDS deaths are not unknown. It took a very long time to get over the belief that all parents of such infants were killers. It is not great to take a backward step. Kathy E [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Terry :) I'm all against hysteria of course :) Yet we also can't ignore something that is staring you right in the face, it's rare matterfact unheard of having 8 kids in the same family die from SIDS, that just doesn't happen Terry. With medical science so improved from when the children originally died they should be able to hopefully come up with some answers at least I hope so. Yet to not investigate and make sure these were SIDS deaths and not homicide would be a crime against the babies that died IMHO. I do believe there is such a thing as SIDs, but basically all I'm saying there is that sometimes babies die and we don't know why, yet to have more than two die in one family, that is questionable and that should be checked into. For all we know it could be something that was in the house that caused the deaths, and by that I'm not talking about the parents but some sort of chemical that they breathed in, we just don't know. And for all the parent's know it's quite possible this investigation may finally put to end the talk about their kids and how they died. If they are truly innocent as they claim, don't you think they would want that? I do. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Kathy, Child Abuse, Inc., seems to be whipping up another wave of hysteria since the last one about the imaginary wholesale sexual abuse of children in nursery schools ebbed. The parents of children who die of SIDS are particularly vulnerable. SIDS like other diseases, notably multiple sclerosis, is a disease of exclusion. The cause has never been found though there are numerous theories. That homicides have been attributed to SIDS should go without saying but the new wave of claims is going far beyond that, calling into question even the existence of SIDS. -- Kathy E "I can only please one person a day, today is NOT your day, and tomorrow isn't looking too good for you either" http://members.delphi.com/kathylaw/ Law Issues Mailing List http://pw1.netcom.com/~kathye/rodeo.html - Cowboy Histories http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/2990/law.htm Crime photo's Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues Best, Terry "Lawyer - one trained to circumvent the law" - The Devil's Dictionary Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
