Re: LI Re: Is a Fetus a Person? + Liquid air for premamture births
Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Bill: OK I see where you are coming from. I still have a problem though. According to the Supreme Court a fetus is not considered a child, but according to the Civil statute a fetus is considered a child. They can't have it both ways, IMO. Either it is or it isn't. Sue Hi Sue, You're exactly right with respect to the rights of the woman and she should be able to sue the person who killed her fetus for a large judgment. But this does not relate to the rights of the fetus. It seems that the law says the fetus has not rights as a person until he/she is born. But once the fetus is born, those rights apply to any damages that was done to him/her at any time after conception. If the fetus dies before birth, then no rights would be in effect. But the rights of the mother are clearly defined by law. Again the issue of abortion seems to invite comparison here. IF a fetus had the same rights as a person that we all have, then included in this is the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But if a fetus is given those rights under the law, then how can the law allow abortion? Bill -- Two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. 2. Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
LI Re: Is a Fetus a Person? + Liquid air for premamture births
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (William J. Foristal) writes: Hi Sue, You're exactly right with respect to the rights of the woman and she should be able to sue the person who killed her fetus for a large judgment. But this does not relate to the rights of the fetus. It seems that the law says the fetus has not rights as a person until he/she is born. But once the fetus is born, those rights apply to any damages that was done to him/her at any time after conception. If the fetus dies before birth, then no rights would be in effect. But the rights of the mother are clearly defined by law. Again the issue of abortion seems to invite comparison here. IF a fetus had the same rights as a person that we all have, then included in this is the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. But if a fetus is given those rights under the law, then how can the law allow abortion? Bill On Fri, 27 Mar 1998 12:31:54 -0800 Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Steve: On the abortion issue, I think that Terry brought up something that to me makes sense. That issue relates to the rights of the woman. In this case the woman's rights were violated because she had no choice as to whether her baby was or wasn't harmed. That is the way I see it anyway. :) Sue As far as the law goes over here a fetus is not a baby or a child until it is to, advanced to legally allow a abortion, this includes using a fetus for genetic and Pharmaceutical research. I think that is a good place to begin with although there are minor pressure groups trying to get the legal limit reduced. The question of when does a baby become a person is one for which I cannot find a comfortable time for, and I think the research that I have seen on Discovery and other programs about when a baby becomes self aware all leave me feeling uneasy. Another thing we discussed (at college today) was the use of oxygenated liquid to help premature babies with undeveloped lungs survive, its an offshoot from deep sea diving technology (as in the film Abyss, your government was actually quite aggrieved that it was used in the film). As our ability to keep premature babies alive improves I feel it will make the above question more and more difficult. When the technology comes along to enable a baby to grow without its mother then some serious sociological questions have to be answered. Its bad enough with that but when we can successfully clone ourselves to use as spare parts then Frankenstein will be alive and well for sure. Medical technology is reaching a point were all the unacceptable things that we depicted in comic books, are now becoming closer to reality. Steve -- Two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. 2. Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues _ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com Or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
LI Re: Is a Fetus a Person? + Liquid air for premamture births
"Steve Wright" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: There are a lot of technical and basically humanistic questions here, and all posts will help... glad you chose to post, and please feel free to correct or amend the above. :) Best, LDMF. As far as the law goes over here a fetus is not a baby or a child until it is to, advanced to legally allow a abortion, this includes using a fetus for genetic and Pharmaceutical research. I think that is a good place to begin with although there are minor pressure groups trying to get the legal limit reduced. The question of when does a baby become a person is one for which I cannot find a comfortable time for, and I think the research that I have seen on Discovery and other programs about when a baby becomes self aware all leave me feeling uneasy. Another thing we discussed (at college today) was the use of oxygenated liquid to help premature babies with undeveloped lungs survive, its an offshoot from deep sea diving technology (as in the film Abyss, your government was actually quite aggrieved that it was used in the film). As our ability to keep premature babies alive improves I feel it will make the above question more and more difficult. When the technology comes along to enable a baby to grow without its mother then some serious sociological questions have to be answered. Its bad enough with that but when we can successfully clone ourselves to use as spare parts then Frankenstein will be alive and well for sure. Medical technology is reaching a point were all the unacceptable things that we depicted in comic books, are now becoming closer to reality. Steve Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI Re: Is a Fetus a Person? + Liquid air for premamture births
DocCec [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: In a message dated 98-03-27 14:44:21 EST, you write: Hi Steve - you have added a new time of accrual of 'personhood'! Offline we had discussed the standards that date 'personhood' from conception (the East), from the first independent breath (one and only one of the American Views), but viability in terms of danger in abortion is a third; and that can be a difficult call, can't it? Turning to both you and Sue here for your knowledge, and *yoohoo Doc Jackie and group*. :) LDMF. "When is a person?" is the real question, and no one can answer it. There are a plethora of opinions, but opinions are not answers. There's conception, implantation (shortly after conception but separable from it), brain development, heartbeat, "quickening" or movement, and viability outside the womb (a stage which changes as technology advances). I've probably omitted a few, but that's the general idea. No one knows. IMO no one will never know. We don't even agree on a good definition of "person" -- I'm a bit of a Kantian so I tend to go with his idea that a person can form a resolution re right and wrong that he/she would agree should govern every person. That not only eliminates fetuses, it does a number of kids as well. In the Kantian school, BTW, an unborn is either a "future person" or a "potential person" -- the first gets born, the second doesn't, and you don't know until one or the other happens. There are also categories called "person-like" which encompasses those mentally unable to reach the plateau of forming the imperative, but who in all other attributes are similar to persons, "former person" which would include the alzheimer's patient and/or one in a persistent vegetative state (except that we've seen a few of the latter recover, so...) The reason it's important is that we (Kantian ethicists) assign rights based on personhood. E.g., a person has a robust (you can't infringe on it) right not to be killed for sport. Non-persons do not have that right, although there may be other very valid reasons for not doing that to them -- society's interest, parental valuation of the not-yet-person, things like that. In Kantian terms, those rights are not "robust" but are called rights-sub-two whereas robust rights are rights-sub-one. Now, aren't you sorry you asked? All this, and masses more, is from the course in Philosophical Roots of Bioethics taught by Tris Englehardt for the Kennedy Institute at Georgetown. Doc Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
Re: LI Re: Is a Fetus a Person? + Liquid air for premamture births
Sue Hartigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Hi Steve: On the abortion issue, I think that Terry brought up something that to me makes sense. That issue relates to the rights of the woman. In this case the woman's rights were violated because she had no choice as to whether her baby was or wasn't harmed. That is the way I see it anyway. :) Sue As far as the law goes over here a fetus is not a baby or a child until it is to, advanced to legally allow a abortion, this includes using a fetus for genetic and Pharmaceutical research. I think that is a good place to begin with although there are minor pressure groups trying to get the legal limit reduced. The question of when does a baby become a person is one for which I cannot find a comfortable time for, and I think the research that I have seen on Discovery and other programs about when a baby becomes self aware all leave me feeling uneasy. Another thing we discussed (at college today) was the use of oxygenated liquid to help premature babies with undeveloped lungs survive, its an offshoot from deep sea diving technology (as in the film Abyss, your government was actually quite aggrieved that it was used in the film). As our ability to keep premature babies alive improves I feel it will make the above question more and more difficult. When the technology comes along to enable a baby to grow without its mother then some serious sociological questions have to be answered. Its bad enough with that but when we can successfully clone ourselves to use as spare parts then Frankenstein will be alive and well for sure. Medical technology is reaching a point were all the unacceptable things that we depicted in comic books, are now becoming closer to reality. Steve -- Two rules in life: 1. Don't tell people everything you know. 2. Subscribe/Unsubscribe, email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In the body of the message enter: subscribe/unsubscribe law-issues
