Re: [Leaf-devel] Webbased Configuration
some remarks about using forth: - certainly forth is missing all that nice pattern matching like awk or perl, all this has to be coded. Well, C is missing these as well, until you load a massive standard library :) - I assume that even arrays are not available in forth Not as part of the core language you'll get with the 10-20K interpreter, but you can easily add words to manipulate arrays. - because forth uses very unusual semantics (reverse polish notation) it is not easy to understand and to maintain (you have always to keep in mind, what is in this moment at which position on the stack). Like perl makes sense? I can't read most perl code becuase of all the implicit file-handles and data sources...I see the code that modifies stuff, but I don't know what it's working on. Too many $.@/ things for me to keep straight. Each language has it's idosyncracies... mawk is 49K compressed perl4 is 136k compressed AFAIK, neither can do direct linux system calls, and both require another apx. 500K (compressed) C library to function. Charles Steinkuehler [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: OSDN - Tired of that same old cell phone? Get a new here for FREE! https://www.inphonic.com/r.asp?r=sourceforge1refcode1=vs3390 ___ Leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [Leaf-devel] Webbased Configuration
Charles Steinkuehler schrieb:
some remarks about using forth:
- certainly forth is missing all that nice pattern matching
like awk or perl, all this has to be coded.
Well, C is missing these as well, until you load a massive standard
library :)
- I assume that even arrays are not available in forth
Not as part of the core language you'll get with the 10-20K
interpreter, but you can easily add words to manipulate arrays.
That is correct, but you have to take these points in acoount,
when comparing sizes. You can get a basic interpreter, that
fits in 2k of memory. It has less features than forth but it is
even smaller.
- because forth uses very unusual semantics (reverse
polish notation) it is not easy to understand and to
maintain (you have always to keep in mind, what is in
this moment at which position on the stack).
Like perl makes sense? I can't read most perl code becuase of all the
implicit file-handles and data sources...I see the code that modifies
stuff, but I don't know what it's working on. Too many $.@/ things for
me to keep straight.
Each language has it's idosyncracies...
The most important difficulty with forth is RPN. An example:
func(y/(5+3*x+z), y/6, y*y)
is in RPN
y 5 3 x * + z + / y 6 / y y * func
How long do you need to verify, if the two lines are the same?
y z 5 x 3 * + + / 6 y / y y * func
Is this the same? How long do you need?
Some years ago I have done a lot of postscript programming for
high quality typesetters. Postscript also uses RPN. I think
I would not have big problems reading forth.
Readability is a question of coding style. In any language you can
write code that is not easy to understand.
while() print
is the same as
while ($line = STDIN)
{
print $line
}
but the latter is more easily to understand.
It is also a question of experience with the language.
My boss is a experienced C programmer on DOS and embedded systems.
But when he sees a script line like this
[ $DEBUG ] echo `basename $file`
he asks me: What the hell are you doing here?
BTW, the most of this $%@... are an implicit type declararion
like in fortran, where all variables starting with [i-n] are
implicit integers.
mawk is 49K compressed
perl4 is 136k compressed
AFAIK, neither can do direct linux system calls, and both require
another apx. 500K (compressed) C library to function.
Both need only libc, which is needed anyway and libm, which is
38k compressed.
AFAIK web configuration is only manipulation of script and config files.
So I can see no necessity for any system calls, but I may be wrong.
At the moment I have not the time to get involved in this project,
so this is only my opinion and to share available information and
experience.
If someone wants to play around with perl4, I can make the lrp
publicly available. It passes the tests in the makefile and I
tested the server example of the manpage on a bering system.
Charles Steinkuehler
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Manfred Schuler
E_Mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [Leaf-devel] Webbased Configuration
Readability is a question of coding style. In any language you can write code that is not easy to understand. snip but the latter is more easily to understand. It is also a question of experience with the language. My boss is a experienced C programmer on DOS and embedded systems. But when he sees a script line like this [ $DEBUG ] echo `basename $file` he asks me: What the hell are you doing here? Exactly...familiar languages look normal, and unfamiliar ones look wierd. I can usually pick up a new computer language in about 1-2 weeks (to the point I'm writing code rather than crawling through reference manuals checking on syntax :), and be coding very well in 3-4. I really don't care which language gets picked, but it should be selected on it's merits for the task at hand. I think part of the problem is I have different tasks in mind than several other folks... If someone wants to play around with perl4, I can make the lrp publicly available. It passes the tests in the makefile and I tested the server example of the manpage on a bering system. Please make your perl4 package available. At the very least, that's the lightest perl implementation I've heard of for LRP, and I'm sure someone will find it useful. Charles Steinkuehler http://lrp.steinkuehler.net http://c0wz.steinkuehler.net (lrp.c0wz.com mirror) --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: OSDN - Tired of that same old cell phone? Get a new here for FREE! https://www.inphonic.com/r.asp?r=sourceforge1refcode1=vs3390 ___ Leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [Leaf-devel] Webbased Configuration
Mike Noyes schrieb: Manfred, Is your perl4 package different than the one already in our repository? Yes - it is compiled with gcc 2.95.3. If the tales about this compiler version are true, it should gain some speed. - it is linked static against libdb - it does not contain libm, libm.lrp must be loaded. - it does not contain /usr/lib/perl4/* - it is tested on bering. It is available at www.schuler-lehrte.de/lrp/perl4.lrp -- Manfred Schuler E_Mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: OSDN - Tired of that same old cell phone? Get a new here for FREE! https://www.inphonic.com/r.asp?r=sourceforge1refcode1=vs3390 ___ Leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
RE: [Leaf-devel] Webbased configuration
Everyone, I propose the creation of a config tree in our CVS src tree. All of the components necessary for this project can be placed there, and write access granted to team members. The structure of the config tree is left to the team members discretion. Example: leaf/src/config + | /core | /text | /ncurses | /web | /doc Alternate: leaf/src/config + | /sh-httpd | /weblet | /lrcfg | /acfg | /apkg On Sun, 2002-09-01 at 23:13, Richard Amerman wrote: We can take a look at how far I have gotten and decide if it is on track and ready to put in CVS. I have mainly been working on abstracting everything so that it is easy to construct content in a dynamic way. I'm interested in modules that include the configuration piece, but also inhanced log viewes, live statistics in as much of a dashboard fashion as possible, and other similar ideas. While some of these modules may be sizable, I, like the rest of you wish to keep the base system as small as possible -- Mike Noyes [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/ http://leaf-project.org/ --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: OSDN - Tired of that same old cell phone? Get a new here for FREE! https://www.inphonic.com/r.asp?r=sourceforge1refcode1=vs3390 ___ Leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [Leaf-devel] Webbased Configuration
Hi, some remarks about using forth: - certainly forth is missing all that nice pattern matching like awk or perl, all this has to be coded. - I assume that even arrays are not available in forth - because forth uses very unusual semantics (reverse polish notation) it is not easy to understand and to maintain (you have always to keep in mind, what is in this moment at which position on the stack). mawk is 49K compressed perl4 is 136k compressed Manfred Eric Wolzak schrieb: Hello all, I agree with Erich that it would be wise to get an architecture before thinking about the implementation. IMHO it should be : -easy to configure. -flexible , so adding new packages is possible without much programming. -flexible 2- so it is possible to use the same system on oxygen, bering ,dachstein, Wisp by merely changeing the Tools configuration file. -useable also on slow systems. I thought about it sometime and came up with a kind of a flowchart ( I am afraid , I am not good at Ascii art, so I put it up my webserver: http://wolzak.de/leaf/config1.jpg After some looking at this graphic I noticed that 1. The cgi and the primary Part have a common Trunk Useing a template with the variables to create a html or config file. 2. The intelligenz of this programm is on the firewall. With each call , there is a lot of computeing. 3. The configuration Template is created dynamically, but doesn't change . So why not create it offline or better of the box. So I came up with the next Idea: http://wolzak.de/leaf/config2.jpg The first Action is created on whatever computer under whatever system to create the Parsing rules The HTML Template and the Config Template. The Idea behind this is that as soon as the external Parser is written, it can create any HTML.template , parsing rules or config template just by creating a modules or package config file. What is this parsing rule thing. This is a file build something like `grep -q ^noauth` var1=noauth var2=$NETWORK_INTERFACE var3=`ls /etc/` now after running this shell script or any other (Forth, Java alike) you would have the variables var1, var2, var3 set Those are combined with the HTML template just by catting the template with the variables at the appropriate place. What kind of place is told by the Module configuration file. The kind of field the vars are placed in is destined by the kind of data it expect ( options, filenames, freetext etc) The Modules Config file (which could also be a database can be different formats: 1. xml in that case the template, parsing rules and config template can be generated by merely applying a xsl stylesheet. 2. something with different fields example: field 1 = 0 (optional) /1 demanded field 2 = 0 (single) /1 (repeatedly possible) field 3= variable looks like 1 NAME=value 2 NAME value 3 value 4 filename 5 name= (value1 or value2 or value3) 6 name (value1 or value 2 or value3) 7 ( value1 or value2 or value 3) 8 ... 3 Database. I think I prefer the first option (xml). ... Any Comments , Reactions, flames Eric Wolzak member of the Bering Crew. --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: OSDN - Tired of that same old cell phone? Get a new here for FREE! https://www.inphonic.com/r.asp?r=sourceforge1refcode1=vs3390 ___ Leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel -- Manfred Schuler Beerenweg 4 31275 Lehrte Tel.: (0 51 75) 66 54 Fax: (07 21) 1 51 22 22 17 E_Mail: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: OSDN - Tired of that same old cell phone? Get a new here for FREE! https://www.inphonic.com/r.asp?r=sourceforge1refcode1=vs3390 ___ Leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [Leaf-devel] Webbased configuration
On Sun, 2002-09-01 at 13:08, Erich Titl wrote: you seem to be knowledgeable about the copyright stuff. I am about to paint an entry page for the config stuff and would like to use the LEAF logo for it. Is there a problem? Erich, Since I created it there is no problem. It can be used for anything that wouldn't upset our project members. Your proposed use is fine with me. BTW, I just added the Gimp xcf source file to our cvs repository, so you can generate the desired graphic size and format. Enjoy. http://cvs.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/leaf/devel/mhnoyes/phpwebsite/logo/ Note: we may want to have another logo contest in the future. We have more people associated with our project now. I'm sure many of them are better at graphic design than I am. -- Mike Noyes [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://sourceforge.net/users/mhnoyes/ http://leaf-project.org/ --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: OSDN - Tired of that same old cell phone? Get a new here for FREE! https://www.inphonic.com/r.asp?r=sourceforge1refcode1=vs3390 ___ Leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
Re: [Leaf-devel] Webbased configuration
On Sunday 01 September 2002 15:08, Erich Titl wrote: Mike you seem to be knowledgeable about the copyright stuff. I am about to paint an entry page for the config stuff and would like to use the LEAF logo for it. Is there a problem? Erich, Would you mind getting with Richard Amerman and working on the the www page format. Richard has already done quite a bit of work stream lining the existing Weblet page code. Possibly the two of you can create the front-end of a menu system a little easier by bouncing ideas/code together. I think Charles' existing code, that uses Jscript for setting up the graphical end is an excellent idea that saves some space. Mosquito is using a Frame setup (shudder!) built from Jscript that works quite well (GPL'ed). There might be some ideas from examining that code as well. I would believe we will want to use xml (or xhtml 1.x) compliant code in the html...possibly CSS style-sheets with the POST form method (to avoid more code to interpret GET and the 255 character limit). I have sent Charles a copy of James Sturdevant's POST patched sh-httpd application that will be available via LEAF CVS when Charles commits it to CVS. If you need a copy of it to work with before then, mail me off-list and I'll send you a copy. Does anyone else have any ideas, thoughts, or comments on this since both Erich and Richard have been doing work for some time on the interface end of the project. -- ~Lynn Avants aka Guitarlynn guitarlynn at users.sourceforge.net http://leaf.sourceforge.net If linux isn't the answer, you've probably got the wrong question! --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: OSDN - Tired of that same old cell phone? Get a new here for FREE! https://www.inphonic.com/r.asp?r=sourceforge1refcode1=vs3390 ___ Leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
RE: [Leaf-devel] Webbased configuration
I need to get my head back into it. I think I had a bit more work done than I had yet
deployed to my WebletDemo site. I also think that machine might be down. I will
check this week. I am particularly interested in working on the front end of things
for the moment as I have some momentem there, but I am slamed on my current project
for at least the next week or two. I will try to get my latest up on the WebletDemo
site and get it back up. The site has the built in ability to both view and download
it's source. We can take a look at how far I have gotten and decide if it is on track
and ready to put in CVS. I have mainly been working on abstracting everything so that
it is easy to construct content in a dynamic way. I'm interested in modules that
include the configuration piece, but also inhanced log viewes, live statistics in as
much of a dashboard fashion as possible, and other similar ideas. While some of these
modules may be sizable, I, like the rest of you wish to keep the base system as small
as possible
I have moved my main LEAF setup to two floppies, as setup that seems fantastic to me,
keeps the hardware write protection, still very easy to maintain, lots of space,
drives cheap, etc. I'm surprised I have not heard of more people going this route.
Well, I have Stored Procedures calling my name, back to work.
Richard Amerman
-Original Message-
From: guitarlynn [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Sun 9/1/2002 10:50 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc:
Subject: Re: [Leaf-devel] Webbased configuration
On Sunday 01 September 2002 15:08, Erich Titl wrote:
Mike
you seem to be knowledgeable about the copyright stuff. I am about to
paint an entry page for the config stuff and would like to use the
LEAF logo for it. Is there a problem?
Erich,
Would you mind getting with Richard Amerman and working on the the
www page format. Richard has already done quite a bit of work stream
lining the existing Weblet page code. Possibly the two of you can create
the front-end of a menu system a little easier by bouncing ideas/code
together.
I think Charles' existing code, that uses Jscript for setting up the
graphical end is an excellent idea that saves some space. Mosquito
is using a Frame setup (shudder!) built from Jscript that works
quite well (GPL'ed). There might be some ideas from examining that
code as well.
I would believe we will want to use xml (or xhtml 1.x) compliant code
in the html...possibly CSS style-sheets with the POST form method
(to avoid more code to interpret GET and the 255 character limit).
I have sent Charles a copy of James Sturdevant's POST patched
sh-httpd application that will be available via LEAF CVS when
Charles commits it to CVS. If you need a copy of it to work with
before then, mail me off-list and I'll send you a copy.
Does anyone else have any ideas, thoughts, or comments on this
since both Erich and Richard have been doing work for some time
on the interface end of the project.
--
~Lynn Avants
aka Guitarlynn
guitarlynn at users.sourceforge.net
http://leaf.sourceforge.net
If linux isn't the answer, you've probably got the wrong question!
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Re: [Leaf-devel] Webbased Configuration
Hello Lynn, Charles , List On Saturday 31 August 2002 14:21, Eric Wolzak wrote: Hello all, I agree with Erich that it would be wise to get an architecture before thinking about the implementation. IMHO it should be : -easy to configure. -flexible , so adding new packages is possible without much programming. -flexible 2- so it is possible to use the same system on oxygen, bering ,dachstein, Wisp by merely changeing the Tools configuration file. -useable also on slow systems. Agreed, in all likely regards, we are integrating/replacing lrcfg with this project. A good idea would be to consider 'apkg' as well, since it includes some advanced features that are lacking with 'lrcfg'. Considering (and examining) Forth, this will possibly end up in a totally new base system that may or may not be integrated with existing variants and should be considered. A new boot-method and required packaging/configuration compatibility are my reasoning behind this statement. This project will end up with a required baseline for compatibility. In examination of possible Forth implementations, eForth and kForth (18K download) seemed good possibilities. The User's guide for kForth seems pretty easy to interpret. http://ccreweb.org/software/kforth/kforth0.html The Idea behind this is that as soon as the external Parser is written, it can create any HTML.template , parsing rules or config template just by creating a modules or package config file. Thanks for making the flow-charts! The second jpeg is pretty much what I have had in mind. I don't see a distint reason for using uncgi, particularly with POST data, many people on the list also have ~10 line GET parsers as well. Personally, I see a more secure method by using the CGI to simply set the environment and call the applicable executable to do the actual work, so ineffect the CGI/www-server is the parser and doesn't do the work. The executable, run under a SUID, can be done in any language that can be interpreted. Does anyone see any problems with this method? I agree with you I didn't mean the Programm uncgi but rather some engine creating variables from the cgi statement. The Modules Config file (which could also be a database can be different formats: 1. xml in that case the template, parsing rules and config template can be generated by merely applying a xsl stylesheet. snip I think I prefer the first option (xml). I would prefer this method as well. I have only one question, will the XML need an interpreter on the www-server? No it is not even available on the router as the xml files are only used to generate the parsing rules, html template and config template. I just have to be more precise with describeing ; ) ( Thoughts??? -- ~Lynn Avants aka Guitarlynn Reactions ? Eric Wolzak --- This sf.net email is sponsored by: OSDN - Tired of that same old cell phone? Get a new here for FREE! https://www.inphonic.com/r.asp?r=sourceforge1refcode1=vs3390 ___ Leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
RE: [leaf-devel] Webbased configuration
Well put!
I know that I have not been vocal in the past month, I have been overloaded with a
rush project at work, and my Wife has taken to Zope, so between these, I have had
little time for LEAF. This does not mean that I am less interested. :-)
Your post is right on track. One thing I would sugest, just repeating a few
sugestions made by others a month or so ago, since we are realy talking about two
things, the sh-httpd and the Weblet/configuration piece, we need to keep
distinguishing between them. A good messege subject line might be Web Config -
Weblet/Configurator and Web Config - sh-httpd.
Richard Amerman
-Original Message-
From: Erich Titl [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Fri 8/30/2002 2:12 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc:
Subject: [leaf-devel] Webbased configuration
Hi folks
Thanks for the hearty welcome
I did a bit of a fly by on all the summaries presented lately on the
Webbased config subject. I would like to make a few suggestions, not
necessarily technical ones because I feel the matter has been well understood.
- Could we keep this on leaf-devel, it makes it easier to concentrate if I
don't have 2 lists to watch?.
- Could we agree to a common subject line, my procmail mail sorter is a lot
happier that way? I suggest to keep 'Webbased configuration' in the
subject for mail recognition.
- My current work is on a Java based Web application which was badly
designed, we are not in a hurry, lets try to get a good pattern for the
configurator.
- I believe we should try to build this with the currently available tools
in Dachstein/Bering, e.g. sh-httpd. Even if it eats a few cycles, it has a
miraculously small footprint.
- Let's try to build the configurator in a modular way, someone on the list
suggested to build kind of plugin to a generic configuration webpage which
would have to be implementd in each package. I think this is an excellent
idea and we should try to write specs for the interface. The developers and
maintainers of the current distributions/packages will certainly be the
most valuable resource.
- Can we build up a small subtree in the CVS structure for the
configuration tool which can be accessed by everyone just for development
purposes. A start could be the POST sh-httpd so we would not have to ask
for copies explicitly. Suggestions for the structure please. This could
help as a coordination point for our efforts.
Thanks for comments, improvements and critics.
It's late east of Greenwich, good night.
Erich
THINK
Püntenstrasse 39
8143 Stallikon
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Re: [Leaf-devel] Webbased configuration
Hi Eric, Lynn, Charles Asking for permission to come aboard. Dive right in! You'll either sink or swim. Please don't swim within 30 minutes of eating. Remember your life-preserver. Go with the flow, swim against the current, or maybe just try treading water...your preference. Please keep your arms and legs inside the vehicle until the ride comes to a full and complete stop. WELCOME ABOARD! ...OK, enough already :) Charles Steinkuehler [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- This sf.net email is sponsored by:ThinkGeek Welcome to geek heaven. http://thinkgeek.com/sf ___ Leaf-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/leaf-devel
