Re: [LegacyUG] speaking of location names

[CE WOOD]

The reason to have an alternate location list is so that whatever location name 
you have found/use for a particular location, it will link to the same physical 
place on the earth just as having an alternate name list will link to the same 
individual.


So, however many name changes, county changes, country changes, et alia, they 
can all be the location index and clicking on any of them will take you the 
that particular place on the Earth.


Anytime you find a particular location spelled differently, in a different 
county or country, it doesn't matter as long as you have that particular 
iteration of the location listed in the location index.


With an alternative location index, you will always know that X location in 
1300 was referred to as X and was in A county and B country, but was later 
referred to as Y in 1500 and was in A county and C country, ad infinitum.


Documents refer to the same location with myriad spellings. Alsace used to be 
German...then French...then German. Do you list is as Alsace, Germany, HRE, 
Prussia, France, etc. You can enter whichever is correct for the time period of 
the individual as long as you have an alternative location. It will lick to the 
same spot on your map, AND you will be able to trace how its "ownership" 
changed.



CE


From: LegacyUserGroup <legacyusergroup-boun...@legacyusers.com> on behalf of 
johnbernac...@iprimus.com.au <johnbernac...@iprimus.com.au>
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 4:23 PM
To: Legacy User Group
Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] speaking of location names

I have been using several different place name entries for the same physical
location. This is OK for me but makes it difficult to exchange information
with other researchers, in charts or reports, because they would be confused
by location names I use. Even Germans do not attempt to use names as they
were during the German Holy Roman Empire. Many do not even use place names
used by the FamilySearch location standardiser.

This is why I would like to expand the Legacy option which allows selection
of Short Location Names, to also allow selection of other name variations.
Before sending reports to others, I could select a more contemporary
location name e.g. instead of using: Püttlingen, Kriechingen, Wied-Runkel,
German HRE [1776 to 1788], I could select: Püttlingen, Saarland, Germany.

While writing my family history book, I included explanations of location
name variations and the geopolitical implications. I use Genelines timeline
software a lot. I research the histories of their towns, counties, provinces
etc. and add the events to Genelines. First, it helps me to get my head
around their histories. Second, I can include Genelines individual’s charts
in my book to complement my narrative, to help readers understand the
context of ancestors’ lives.

European locations can have very complex and fluid histories, especially
during the German HRE. Even if I have few errors in how a specific time
period relates to a specific town, or county, or province etc., my location
names still appear to be more specific/accurate than they are any other
family trees I have seen.

John

-Original Message-
From: Steve Hayes
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 3:36 PM
To: Legacy User Group
Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] speaking of location names

On 14 Apr 2017 at 10:35, johnbernac...@iprimus.com.au wrote:

> A few months ago I sent a suggestion to Legacy for the ability to add a
> number
> of name variations for locations, instead of only a short version. I have
> diverse ancestry from different parts of Europe where it is very common
> for
> the same location to have been under various countries or empires through
> history. Genealogists are supposed to use the location name as it was at
> the
> time of the event. You also learn a little more about the lives of
> ancestors
> if you know whether they lived under the Russian and /or Austrian Empires
> and
> /or Napoleon Bonaparte´s empire etc. Geo location can distract family
> historians from researching the actual borders of the time, finding
> interesting information and factors causing ancestors to emigrate etc.

Yes, I try, where possible, to do that, but FamilySearch seems to want to
use
the current name of a place, regardless of when the event took place. And it
sometimes has standardised on completely inaccurate place names, and
suggests
"standard" names that would mean that a place would have to be in two or
more
different places, none of them within 500 miles of where it actually is.

The German ones are particularly difficult, and, being unaware of all the
historical nuances, I usually enter things like "Woddow, Brandenburg,
Ueckermark, Prussia" even for periods when I'm not sure how accurate it is.

It does, however, mean that in Legacy, one can had 3-4 different place name
entries for the same physical location.

For example, I h

Re: [LegacyUG] speaking of location names

[johnbernacki1]

I have been using several different place name entries for the same physical 
location. This is OK for me but makes it difficult to exchange information 
with other researchers, in charts or reports, because they would be confused 
by location names I use. Even Germans do not attempt to use names as they 
were during the German Holy Roman Empire. Many do not even use place names 
used by the FamilySearch location standardiser.


This is why I would like to expand the Legacy option which allows selection 
of Short Location Names, to also allow selection of other name variations. 
Before sending reports to others, I could select a more contemporary 
location name e.g. instead of using: Püttlingen, Kriechingen, Wied-Runkel, 
German HRE [1776 to 1788], I could select: Püttlingen, Saarland, Germany.


While writing my family history book, I included explanations of location 
name variations and the geopolitical implications. I use Genelines timeline 
software a lot. I research the histories of their towns, counties, provinces 
etc. and add the events to Genelines. First, it helps me to get my head 
around their histories. Second, I can include Genelines individual’s charts 
in my book to complement my narrative, to help readers understand the 
context of ancestors’ lives.


European locations can have very complex and fluid histories, especially 
during the German HRE. Even if I have few errors in how a specific time 
period relates to a specific town, or county, or province etc., my location 
names still appear to be more specific/accurate than they are any other 
family trees I have seen.


John

-Original Message- 
From: Steve Hayes

Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 3:36 PM
To: Legacy User Group
Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] speaking of location names

On 14 Apr 2017 at 10:35, johnbernac...@iprimus.com.au wrote:

A few months ago I sent a suggestion to Legacy for the ability to add a 
number

of name variations for locations, instead of only a short version. I have
diverse ancestry from different parts of Europe where it is very common 
for

the same location to have been under various countries or empires through
history. Genealogists are supposed to use the location name as it was at 
the
time of the event. You also learn a little more about the lives of 
ancestors
if you know whether they lived under the Russian and /or Austrian Empires 
and

/or Napoleon Bonaparte´s empire etc. Geo location can distract family
historians from researching the actual borders of the time, finding
interesting information and factors causing ancestors to emigrate etc.


Yes, I try, where possible, to do that, but FamilySearch seems to want to 
use

the current name of a place, regardless of when the event took place. And it
sometimes has standardised on completely inaccurate place names, and 
suggests
"standard" names that would mean that a place would have to be in two or 
more

different places, none of them within 500 miles of where it actually is.

The German ones are particularly difficult, and, being unaware of all the
historical nuances, I usually enter things like "Woddow, Brandenburg,
Ueckermark, Prussia" even for periods when I'm not sure how accurate it is.

It does, however, mean that in Legacy, one can had 3-4 different place name
entries for the same physical location.

For example, I have

Johannesburg, Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek (short form ZAR)
Johannesburg, Transvaal
Johannesburg, Transvaal, South Africa (short form RSA)
Johannesburg, Gauteng, South Africa.

and there was even a period when Gauteng was known as PWV

FamilySearch now wants to tack "United Kingdom" on to places in England,
Scotland and Wales, at the very time when the Brexit vote makes it uncertain
hoe long the UK will last, and it wants that name for periods even before 
the

United Kingdom was formed.

I'm reminded of the book which features Lewis Carroll's Cheshire cat from
"Alice in Wonderland", only it introduces itself as "the Unitary Authority 
of

Warrington Cat".

Of course one can always record a history of the changes of name and
jurisdiction in the location notes, and perhaps that is the way to go.













I admit however, it can get very complicated. I am the only family 
historian

or genealogist that I know of who is "nutty" enough to attempt using
accurate location names for the extremely complex territories of the 
German

Holy Roman Empire- I think Family Search only uses locations as they were
after the 1815 Congress of Vienna which made enormous changes to borders
throughout Europe.

You can however be rewarded with very fascinating stories e.g. I have
ancestors who lived in a culturally German district which was a tiny 
French
exclave which had been geographically located within a bigger exclave of 
the

Duchy of Lorraine. These ancestors emigrated to a corner of "Poland" which
had been taken by the Austrian Empire. They, with other German f

Re: [LegacyUG] speaking of location names

[Chris Hill]

Of course, as well as alternative names we also have to be aware of the
dates when names and location were changed. And it not just because of a
change of country, as towns and cities have extended they have included
villages that used to be a separate location, and in the case of the county
of Middlesex it has completely disappeared.

So Stepney was a separate village in Middlesex to the east of London. By the
start of the 1800s it was still in Middlesex, but was just about joined by
buildings to London, In 1889 the County of London was created which occupied
the City of London and parts of Essex, Middlesex, Surrey and Kent. From 1900
Stepney was part of the Stepney metropolitan borough, which replaced the
ancient parish vestries and district boards. That was replaced in 1965 by
Greater London, which took over most of Middlesex, with parts going to
Hertfordshire and Surrey, along with parts of Essex, Hertfordshire, Surrey
and Kent. So now Stepney is part of the Tower Hamlets borough.

Given that my ancestors were based in Middlesex I have tended to use the
ancient Middlesex county, even for entries relating to dates after 1889, but
really I should be using a mixture of Stepney, Middlesex or Stepney, London
or Stepney, Tower Hamlets, Greater London.

Regards

Chris

-Original Message-
From: LegacyUserGroup [mailto:legacyusergroup-boun...@legacyusers.com] On
Behalf Of Steve Hayes
Sent: 14 April 2017 06:36
To: Legacy User Group <legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com>
Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] speaking of location names

On 14 Apr 2017 at 10:35, johnbernac...@iprimus.com.au wrote:

> A few months ago I sent a suggestion to Legacy for the ability to add 
> a number of name variations for locations, instead of only a short 
> version. I have diverse ancestry from different parts of Europe where 
> it is very common for the same location to have been under various 
> countries or empires through history. Genealogists are supposed to use 
> the location name as it was at the time of the event. You also learn a 
> little more about the lives of ancestors if you know whether they 
> lived under the Russian and /or Austrian Empires and /or Napoleon 
> Bonaparte´s empire etc. Geo location can distract family historians 
> from researching the actual borders of the time, finding interesting
information and factors causing ancestors to emigrate etc.

Yes, I try, where possible, to do that, but FamilySearch seems to want to
use the current name of a place, regardless of when the event took place.
And it sometimes has standardised on completely inaccurate place names, and
suggests "standard" names that would mean that a place would have to be in
two or more different places, none of them within 500 miles of where it
actually is.

The German ones are particularly difficult, and, being unaware of all the
historical nuances, I usually enter things like "Woddow, Brandenburg,
Ueckermark, Prussia" even for periods when I'm not sure how accurate it is. 

It does, however, mean that in Legacy, one can had 3-4 different place name
entries for the same physical location. 

For example, I have 

Johannesburg, Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek (short form ZAR) Johannesburg,
Transvaal Johannesburg, Transvaal, South Africa (short form RSA)
Johannesburg, Gauteng, South Africa. 

and there was even a period when Gauteng was known as PWV

FamilySearch now wants to tack "United Kingdom" on to places in England,
Scotland and Wales, at the very time when the Brexit vote makes it uncertain
hoe long the UK will last, and it wants that name for periods even before
the United Kingdom was formed. 

I'm reminded of the book which features Lewis Carroll's Cheshire cat from
"Alice in Wonderland", only it introduces itself as "the Unitary Authority
of Warrington Cat". 

Of course one can always record a history of the changes of name and
jurisdiction in the location notes, and perhaps that is the way to go. 











> 
> I admit however, it can get very complicated. I am the only family
historian
> or genealogist that I know of who is "nutty" enough to attempt using
> accurate location names for the extremely complex territories of the
German
> Holy Roman Empire- I think Family Search only uses locations as they were
> after the 1815 Congress of Vienna which made enormous changes to borders
> throughout Europe. 
> 
> You can however be rewarded with very fascinating stories e.g. I have
> ancestors who lived in a culturally German district which was a tiny
French
> exclave which had been geographically located within a bigger exclave of
the
> Duchy of Lorraine. These ancestors emigrated to a corner of "Poland" which
> had been taken by the Austrian Empire. They, with other German families
> established their own colony/settlement. This region then fell to
Napoleon,
> becoming part of the Duchy of Warsaw.

Re: [LegacyUG] speaking of location names

[Steve Hayes]

On 14 Apr 2017 at 10:35, johnbernac...@iprimus.com.au wrote:

> A few months ago I sent a suggestion to Legacy for the ability to add a number
> of name variations for locations, instead of only a short version. I have
> diverse ancestry from different parts of Europe where it is very common for
> the same location to have been under various countries or empires through
> history. Genealogists are supposed to use the location name as it was at the
> time of the event. You also learn a little more about the lives of ancestors
> if you know whether they lived under the Russian and /or Austrian Empires and
> /or Napoleon Bonaparte´s empire etc. Geo location can distract family
> historians from researching the actual borders of the time, finding
> interesting information and factors causing ancestors to emigrate etc.

Yes, I try, where possible, to do that, but FamilySearch seems to want to use 
the current name of a place, regardless of when the event took place. And it 
sometimes has standardised on completely inaccurate place names, and suggests 
"standard" names that would mean that a place would have to be in two or more 
different places, none of them within 500 miles of where it actually is.

The German ones are particularly difficult, and, being unaware of all the 
historical nuances, I usually enter things like "Woddow, Brandenburg, 
Ueckermark, Prussia" even for periods when I'm not sure how accurate it is. 

It does, however, mean that in Legacy, one can had 3-4 different place name 
entries for the same physical location. 

For example, I have 

Johannesburg, Zuid-Afrikaansche Republiek (short form ZAR)
Johannesburg, Transvaal
Johannesburg, Transvaal, South Africa (short form RSA)
Johannesburg, Gauteng, South Africa. 

and there was even a period when Gauteng was known as PWV

FamilySearch now wants to tack "United Kingdom" on to places in England, 
Scotland and Wales, at the very time when the Brexit vote makes it uncertain 
hoe long the UK will last, and it wants that name for periods even before the 
United Kingdom was formed. 

I'm reminded of the book which features Lewis Carroll's Cheshire cat from 
"Alice in Wonderland", only it introduces itself as "the Unitary Authority of 
Warrington Cat". 

Of course one can always record a history of the changes of name and 
jurisdiction in the location notes, and perhaps that is the way to go. 











> 
> I admit however, it can get very complicated. I am the only family historian
> or genealogist that I know of who is "nutty" enough to attempt using
> accurate location names for the extremely complex territories of the German
> Holy Roman Empire- I think Family Search only uses locations as they were
> after the 1815 Congress of Vienna which made enormous changes to borders
> throughout Europe. 
> 
> You can however be rewarded with very fascinating stories e.g. I have
> ancestors who lived in a culturally German district which was a tiny French
> exclave which had been geographically located within a bigger exclave of the
> Duchy of Lorraine. These ancestors emigrated to a corner of "Poland" which
> had been taken by the Austrian Empire. They, with other German families
> established their own colony/settlement. This region then fell to Napoleon,
> becoming part of the Duchy of Warsaw. It then went to the Russian Empire
> ("Russian Poland"). All this in one ancestor´s lifetime! Other branches
> of my family tree also have fascinating stories relating to locations.
> 
> Researching locations takes time so I mostly research my direct ancestors and
> sometimes their siblings, rather than spending time finding thousands of
> distant cousins which to me seems pointless and much less interesting.
> 
> John
> 


-- 
Steve Hayes
E-mail: sha...@dunelm.org.uk
Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com
Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm
Phone: 083-342-3563 or 012-333-6727
Fax: 086-548-2525



-- 

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Re: [LegacyUG] speaking of location names

[CE WOOD]

So glad to find another interested in locations, their histories, and various 
iterations! I hope Legacy can add the facility of an alternate name index. It 
is simple to do in Access.



CE



From: LegacyUserGroup <legacyusergroup-boun...@legacyusers.com> on behalf of 
johnbernac...@iprimus.com.au <johnbernac...@iprimus.com.au>
Sent: Thursday, April 13, 2017 5:35 PM
To: LegacyUserGroup@Legacyusers.com
Subject: [LegacyUG] speaking of location names

A few months ago I sent a suggestion to Legacy for the ability to add a number 
of name variations for locations, instead of only a short version. I have 
diverse ancestry from different parts of Europe where it is very common for the 
same location to have been under various countries or empires through history. 
Genealogists are supposed to use the location name as it was at the time of the 
event. You also learn a little more about the lives of ancestors if you know 
whether they lived under the Russian and /or Austrian Empires and /or Napoleon 
Bonaparte’s empire etc. Geo location can distract family historians from 
researching the actual borders of the time, finding interesting information and 
factors causing ancestors to emigrate etc.
I admit however, it can get very complicated. I am the only family historian or 
genealogist that I know of who is “nutty” enough to attempt using accurate 
location names for the extremely complex territories of the German Holy Roman 
Empire- I think Family Search only uses locations as they were after the 1815 
Congress of Vienna which made enormous changes to borders throughout Europe.
You can however be rewarded with very fascinating stories e.g. I have ancestors 
who lived in a culturally German district which was a tiny French exclave which 
had been geographically located within a bigger exclave of the Duchy of 
Lorraine. These ancestors emigrated to a corner of “Poland” which had been 
taken by the Austrian Empire. They, with other German families established 
their own colony/settlement. This region then fell to Napoleon, becoming part 
of the Duchy of Warsaw. It then went to the Russian Empire (“Russian Poland”). 
All this in one ancestor’s lifetime! Other branches of my family tree also have 
fascinating stories relating to locations.
Researching locations takes time so I mostly research my direct ancestors and 
sometimes their siblings, rather than spending time finding thousands of 
distant cousins which to me seems pointless and much less interesting.
John
-- 

LegacyUserGroup mailing list
LegacyUserGroup@legacyusers.com
To manage your subscription and unsubscribe 
http://legacyusers.com/mailman/listinfo/legacyusergroup_legacyusers.com
Archives at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/

[LegacyUG] speaking of location names

[johnbernacki1]

A few months ago I sent a suggestion to Legacy for the ability to add a number 
of name variations for locations, instead of only a short version. I have 
diverse ancestry from different parts of Europe where it is very common for the 
same location to have been under various countries or empires through history. 
Genealogists are supposed to use the location name as it was at the time of the 
event. You also learn a little more about the lives of ancestors if you know 
whether they lived under the Russian and /or Austrian Empires and /or Napoleon 
Bonaparte’s empire etc. Geo location can distract family historians from 
researching the actual borders of the time, finding interesting information and 
factors causing ancestors to emigrate etc.

I admit however, it can get very complicated. I am the only family historian or 
genealogist that I know of who is “nutty” enough to attempt using accurate 
location names for the extremely complex territories of the German Holy Roman 
Empire- I think Family Search only uses locations as they were after the 1815 
Congress of Vienna which made enormous changes to borders throughout Europe. 

You can however be rewarded with very fascinating stories e.g. I have ancestors 
who lived in a culturally German district which was a tiny French exclave which 
had been geographically located within a bigger exclave of the Duchy of 
Lorraine. These ancestors emigrated to a corner of “Poland” which had been 
taken by the Austrian Empire. They, with other German families established 
their own colony/settlement. This region then fell to Napoleon, becoming part 
of the Duchy of Warsaw. It then went to the Russian Empire (“Russian Poland”). 
All this in one ancestor’s lifetime! Other branches of my family tree also have 
fascinating stories relating to locations.

Researching locations takes time so I mostly research my direct ancestors and 
sometimes their siblings, rather than spending time finding thousands of 
distant cousins which to me seems pointless and much less interesting.

John
-- 

LegacyUserGroup mailing list
LegacyUserGroup@legacyusers.com
To manage your subscription and unsubscribe 
http://legacyusers.com/mailman/listinfo/legacyusergroup_legacyusers.com
Archives at:
http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/