Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Please, consider that more people want to mark even their future ODBl OSM contributions as CC-BY-SA compatible
+1 It's the contributor terms that made me refuse to accept. Not ODBL. I can see the both the advantages and drawbacks of ODBL but these are not a major problem. For me the CT has been a problem. I principally refuse to sign a contract where I can be held legally responsible for data I contribute for free; where the other party engages itself to nothing at all, not even to take care of the data I contribute. Only on a legally immature medium as internet, where a contract can be signed with a click using a nickname (or that is what we are made to believe) such large number of sheep will accept such a contract. If the community were obliged so sign up with a written signature, OSM would have no contributors anymore. Regards, Gert Van: Mike Dupont [mailto:jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com] Verzonden: Saturday, July 28, 2012 2:45 PM Aan: Licensing and other legal discussions. Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Please, consider that more people want to mark even their future ODBl OSM contributions as CC-BY-SA compatible On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 12:38 PM, Frederik Ramm frede...@remote.org wrote: all the problems we had with the license change Lets be clear here, I think the problems is not because of the license change, but the contributor terms , ( the click through license and the mass collection of all IP rights by the OSF). As far as I know the new license is not even in place, the data is being deleted from users who did not agree to give up all rights to the OSMF and allow for the license to be changed at any time. so lets keep the terms clear here, thanks, mike -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org Saving wikipedia(tm) articles from deletion http://SpeedyDeletion.wikia.com Contributor FOSM, the CC-BY-SA map of the world http://fosm.org Mozilla Rep https://reps.mozilla.org/u/h4ck3rm1k3 ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Please, consider that more people want to mark even their future ODBl OSM contributions as CC-BY-SA compatible
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 6:20 AM, ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen g.grem...@cetest.nl wrote: For me the CT has been a problem. I principally refuse to sign a contract where I can be held legally responsible for data I contribute for free; where the other party engages itself to nothing at all, not even to take care of the data I contribute. I agree on that, The CTS are unacceptable for me to. for the ODBL, I am interested in seeing how it will play out. I wil wait and see on that license. Also since we are on the topic, I think that many people who are in the USA cannot legally sign the CT anyway because the would have to ask the employeer for permission. If you have signed a NDA you might be affected, some companies claim all employees copyright. see the discussion on the CC list. http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-community/2012-August/007283.html -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org Saving wikipedia(tm) articles from deletion http://SpeedyDeletion.wikia.com Contributor FOSM, the CC-BY-SA map of the world http://fosm.org Mozilla Rep https://reps.mozilla.org/u/h4ck3rm1k3 ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Please, consider that more people want to mark even their future ODBl OSM contributions as CC-BY-SA compatible
From: Mike Dupont [mailto:jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com] Subject: Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Please, consider that more people want to mark even their future ODBl OSM contributions as CC-BY-SA compatible Also since we are on the topic, I think that many people who are in the USA cannot legally sign the CT anyway because the would have to ask the employeer for permission. If you have signed a NDA you might be affected, some companies claim all employees copyright. see the discussion on the CC list. http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-community/2012-August/007283.html If someone is unable to sign the CTs because they don't hold copyright over their contributions then they'd be unable to legally contribute to OSM or any open mapping project regardless of the CTs. If someone is not working in a GIS field I can't see the courts considering that mapping they did on their own time as being the property of their employer. If they worked in a GIS field then it could get complicated, but none of this depends on the CTs. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] OSMF Board auto industry / What's the story?
Hi, On 08/09/2012 11:54 PM, Mike Dupont wrote: On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 8:05 PM, Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com wrote: CC-BY-SA is similar in broad terms (you must license the mixed database to the user under CC-BY-SA), but lacks the details more specific to datasets, like the reasonable-format requirement. Can you provide more information on this? I think this might be a misunderstanding. Both CC-BY-SA and ODbL have a clause that prohibits you to use technological measures to circumvent the freedoms guaranteed by the license. This is mostly aimed at DRM and similar concepts. For example, you could theoretically make an electronic map based on OSM which is freely copyable but users must buy a decryption code keyed to their software installation from you in order to be able to use it. This is prohibited under both licenses. (Some people are of the opinion that therefore any sale of OSM derived products through something like Apple's AppStore is not allowed under CC-BY-SA.) The ODbL has a clause softening that rule (4.7. b parallel distribution), which essentially says that you can distribute DRM-encumbered databases if you offer a non-DRM alternative that is at least as accessible as the non-restricted version. But neither CC-BY-SA nor ODbL clearly say what counts as restricting the data. For example, in order to be usable in a routing application, the data will likely have to be heavily preprocessed and indexed, and various manufacturers will use their own data formats for that. The line between complex data format and encrypted data is certainly blurry. I think, under ODbL as well as CC-BY-SA, car navigation manufacturers are in the following situation: * they can make OSM datasets available for their navigation systems * they do not have to publish their data format, or publish software that allows users to make their own OSM-derived datasets for the navigation system * they must not restrict the copying of such datasets (i.e. it must be possible for one guy to buy it and give it to another guy who has the same navigation system to use it there) * (ODbL special) if they do restrict copying then they must make an un-restricted version available in parallel that is at least as accessible as the restricted version, which in my opinion means that it must be loadable into the car navigation system. I don't know much about the automobile industry but my guess is that they are less concerned about loss of sales due to people being allowed to copy data; I think they are very keen on controlling precisely what gets into their cars because they have liability paranoia. Therefore I think neither license is an obstacle for them, because neither forces them to open up the car navigation system to free imports by the user. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] [OSM-talk] OSMF Board auto industry / What's the story?
Hi, On 08/10/2012 10:09 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: The ODbL has a clause softening that rule (4.7. b parallel distribution), which essentially says that you can distribute DRM-encumbered databases if you offer a non-DRM alternative that is at least as accessible as the non-restricted version. At least as accessible as the *restricted* version, sorry. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09 E008°23'33 ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Please, consider that more people want to mark even their future ODBl OSM contributions as CC-BY-SA compatible
On 08/10/2012 07:25 AM, Mike Dupont wrote: Also since we are on the topic, I think that many people who are in the USA cannot legally sign the CT anyway because the would have to ask the employeer for permission. If you have signed a NDA you might be affected, some companies claim all employees copyright. see the discussion on the CC list. http://lists.ibiblio.org/pipermail/cc-community/2012-August/007283.html If that's true, then their employers already have a claim on their work in OSM. That is a problem that the CTs can prevent. An FSF-style employer waiver scheme would allow US employees to contribute without the threat of this problem. - Rob. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Please, consider that more people want to mark even their future ODBl OSM contributions as CC-BY-SA compatible
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote: If someone is unable to sign the CTs because they don't hold copyright over their contributions then they'd be unable to legally contribute to OSM or any open mapping project regardless of the CTs. If someone is not working in a GIS field I can't see the courts considering that mapping they did on their own time as being the property of their employer. If they worked in a GIS field then it could get complicated, but none of this depends on the CTs. After working and living in Germany for many many years, and now moving back to the US and have been forced to deal with this issue. it seems that US corporations overreach on this issue and in some cases claim all copyright from employees. It is not just want you do at work or what is related to work but also to what you do in your free time. Of course I would love to have some comfort here and hope that I am overreacting, but if you see some of the links that I posted there are scary NDAS that you are forced to sign it you want to work or contract for some companies. So the CTs and a copyright assignment would basically have to be co-signed by some peoples employers, like the fsf requires for contributors as rob meyers mentions in the next post. I wonder for example, what people who work for bing or google maps have signed and how that might affect their contributions. thanks, mike -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org Saving wikipedia(tm) articles from deletion http://SpeedyDeletion.wikia.com Contributor FOSM, the CC-BY-SA map of the world http://fosm.org Mozilla Rep https://reps.mozilla.org/u/h4ck3rm1k3 ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Please, consider that more people want to mark even their future ODBl OSM contributions as CC-BY-SA compatible
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 12:58 PM, Mike Dupont jamesmikedup...@googlemail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 7:14 AM, Paul Norman penor...@mac.com wrote: If someone is unable to sign the CTs because they don't hold copyright over their contributions then they'd be unable to legally contribute to OSM or any open mapping project regardless of the CTs. If someone is not working in a GIS field I can't see the courts considering that mapping they did on their own time as being the property of their employer. If they worked in a GIS field then it could get complicated, but none of this depends on the CTs. After working and living in Germany for many many years, and now moving back to the US and have been forced to deal with this issue. it seems that US corporations overreach on this issue and in some cases claim all copyright from employees. It is not just want you do at work or what is related to work but also to what you do in your free time. They can claim what they want. Even if you sign such a contract it is not valid. It's called employer and not slave driver. No court will enforce such a contract. As Paul mentioned this could be a problem if you work in the same kind of business and your contributions to osm could harm your employer or let them loos business. Also using company ressources and what you learn at your job can't be used for other projects or secondary jobs. similar with patents. If you invent anything related it's owned by the company but if you invent something entirely different in your free time then it's yours. On top of all this US law probably does not consider such contributions as protected by copyright at all. This has been discussed here over and over and Russ did repeat it just 1-2 weeks ago. ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Please, consider that more people want to mark even their future ODBl OSM contributions as CC-BY-SA compatible
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 9:51 PM, Apollinaris Schöll ascho...@gmail.com wrote: They can claim what they want. Even if you sign such a contract it is not valid. It's called employer and not slave driver. No court will enforce such a contract. Mr Schöll, I have hear otherwise, first of all if you sign a contact with the plan to break it you are in a weak situation. And even if it is wrong, that does not mean you will have a job afterwards or the money to fight the case. What I am looking for for is a waiver in general for people working on collaborative projects to give to employeers, this is not just about OSM, see last post on that thread in the cc list. thanks, mike -- James Michael DuPont Member of Free Libre Open Source Software Kosova http://flossk.org Saving wikipedia(tm) articles from deletion http://SpeedyDeletion.wikia.com Contributor FOSM, the CC-BY-SA map of the world http://fosm.org Mozilla Rep https://reps.mozilla.org/u/h4ck3rm1k3 ___ legal-talk mailing list legal-talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk
