Re: [L-I] On Centrism Today.
En relacin a Re: [L-I] On Centrism Today., el 14 Jan 01, a las 18:58, rosskommuna dijo: --- Nestor Miguel Gorojovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In fact, the working class can be integrated to the capitalist system, as it actually has been for decades in the core countries. But this integration cannot deny the fact that, existentially, this class is the negation of anything that is human by the system. So that it takes the form of a rebellious integration, thus, centrism. I am not sure I understand this last sentence, but the one before is implausible. The imperial working class simply could not have been integrated into imperial society unless it's been allowed to climb closer to the better end of the alienation stick. The average British or US worker is no more "existentially negated" than the pardoned genius of leveraged buyouts Milken or the chief editor of London Times. Now, it is me who did not understand. Could you please expand? Nstor Miguel Gorojovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] On Centrism Today.
Nestor, that was Vladimir Bilenkin. All four (when we were four) of us dumped him. in other words, he wont respond. Macdonald - Original Message - From: Nestor Miguel Gorojovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 15, 2001 3:30 AM Subject: Re: [L-I] On Centrism Today. En relacin a Re: [L-I] On Centrism Today., el 14 Jan 01, a las 18:58, rosskommuna dijo: Now, it is me who did not understand. Could you please expand? Nstor Miguel Gorojovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] On Centrism Today.
--- Nestor Miguel Gorojovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In fact, the working class can be integrated to the capitalist system, as it actually has been for decades in the core countries. But this integration cannot deny the fact that, existentially, this class is the negation of anything that is human by the system. So that it takes the form of a rebellious integration, thus, centrism. I am not sure I understand this last sentence, but the one before is implausible. The imperial working class simply could not have been integrated into imperial society unless it's been allowed to climb closer to the better end of the alienation stick. The average British or US worker is no more "existentially negated" than the pardoned genius of leveraged buyouts Milken or the chief editor of London Times. Centrism, if anything, and I don't care if I am not in agreement with Leon Trotsky here (though I am sure that if the Old Man were alive he would devilishly smile and support me), means not so much a _party_ that is not to the height of its own historic task. It means a _class_ which is not to the height of its own historic task. Bingo! So the centrist is the one who knows that the center holds, and very much so. Leon did smile you, Nestor, just about the last time, when he conscientiously envisioned the 'unlikely' outcome of WW2 and a 'new program' for the 'slaves' of the post-war world. Vladimir Bilenkin = Proletarii vsekh stran, soediniaites'! __ Do You Yahoo!? Get email at your own domain with Yahoo! Mail. http://personal.mail.yahoo.com/ ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] On Centrism Today.
Yoshie: Lenin's criticism of Economism (socialism conflated with trade-unionism) still stands, and if the criticism of Economism is what Lou means by "centrism," a "swamp," etc., I cannot agree more. I am not sure what you are trying to say. If you are trying to establish connections between Economism and centrism, then we disagree. Economism was a current in the emerging Russian socialist movement that opposed a nation-wide organization. It instead advocated struggles at the plant-gate level around demands that were of immediate interest to the working class. It was an obstacle to the consolidation of a nation-wide Marxist movement. Centrism, by and large, refers to a current *within* Marxism that emerged after 1917 and which occupies a space between the Second International and the Third International. Forces opposed to the creation of a Third International, such as the French Socialist Party and the German Independent Socialist Party, are classic "centrists". Although these types of parties existed throughout the 20s and 30s (they are virtually extinct today in the advanced capitalist countries but occasionally crop up in the third world--the MIR in Allende's Chile might be called a centrist type formation), there was little to distinguish them ideologically from Marxism broadly defined. Economism came to an end at the famous split conference that generated the "What is to be Done" pamphlet. The closest one comes to such a phenomenon today is autonomist Marxism, which makes a fetish of local organizing and eschews challenging the state on a national level. Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org/ ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
Re: [L-I] On Centrism Today.
It is entirely possible, nay necessary, to learn from centrists, especially like the POUM, but does Louis Proyect really want to stay in that mish-mash of political confusion? Or is it just an emotional response to their bravery and general anti-Stalinist approach to life. Explain yourself comrade. from a self-declared and unashamed centrist, but one who desperately wants to break out of this morass - - Steve Myers. I will tell you the same thing that I told Yoshie Furuhashi on the Marxism list. I like what you call the mish-mash, but I prefer to call it a swamp. All sorts of lovely, green things grown in the swamp. Have you ever seen an orchid? Or an Snowy Egret stretching her wings? Or bearded oaks? Or magnolias? It's enough to make a grown man cry. Louis Proyect Marxism mailing list: http://www.marxmail.org/ ___ Leninist-International mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] To change your options or unsubscribe go to: http://lists.wwpublish.com/mailman/listinfo/leninist-international
