Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 94131] FEATURE REQUEST - Easier Setting Default Templates
Hi Le 18/09/2015 13:23, bugzilla-dae...@bugs.documentfoundation.org a écrit : UX: what do you think? Agreed. But, conversely, going back to the default default template (hard-coded?) should be easy as well. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 94091] Removing File > Printer Settings
Le 14/09/2015 23:23, bugzilla-dae...@bugs.documentfoundation.org a écrit : https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94091 --- Comment #4 from Yousuf (Jay) Philips <philip...@hotmail.com> --- (In reply to pierre-yves samyn from comment #2) This menu item allows you to set options (choice of printer for example) *without printing* the document. So you want to set the printer you want to print to, but dont actually want to print the document. Can you elaborate on this? This is useful when you're preparing a template for use with a dedicated printer/tray (I'm just doing this at the moment!). The template designer won't actually print the document. (In reply to Cor Nouws from comment #3) The File > Printer settings makes sense to be able to set the default printer (and tray) for a document. Esp. if there are files that random people in an organisation print by just hitting the print icon. In the situation I describe, having a Print button (pre 4.4) is a blessing: the document has to be printed with the predefined settings, hence going to the File > Print dialog is one step too many (and is prone to errors). The discussion mentions two options w.r.t. the plan to (re)move that menu: 1. make it possible to do the same settings in dialog Page style. As a document can have multiple page styles, i dont think that it would be good to put printing options in to that dialog. One may want to feed some pages from some tray (eg color paper) and others from another one (my actual situation for the template stated above). Well, anyway, the Paper tray option is already in the Page Style dialog. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 93872] Make Navigator Navigation Toolbar Dockable
Hello Jay, Le 14/09/2015 22:38, Yousuf 'Jay' Philips a écrit : As shown in this mockup ( https://bug-attachments.documentfoundation.org/attachment.cgi?id=113625 ), the buttons from the navigation toolbar are now a drop down menu in the navigator tab. Ah ah! I did miss smthg. Failed to notice that at first. Does the drop down (which is not displayed in the mockup) include all the current Navigation toolbar buttons, ie: Reminders, Controls, etc? -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 81168] Remove placeholder names for accessible objects
Le 23/01/2015 20:29, bugzilla-dae...@freedesktop.org a écrit : Is there a better way of dealing with this issue than removing the placeholder names? I am thinking specifically of prompting the user to provide a meaningful name when inserting a frame. This would also be useful for many other types of objects. +1000! BTW, note that currently, the naming constraints are not consistent across objects: some accept spaces (eg: frame name) others won't (eg: table name). -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 88709] Allow Multiple References to Same Footnote
Le 24/01/2015 11:19, bugzilla-dae...@freedesktop.org a écrit : https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=88709 --- Comment #7 from Heiko Tietze heiko.tie...@user-prompt.com --- Some time ago I faced the problem as well and solved it with fake footnotes. But cross-referencing is in fact the best solution. When pasting a footnote you could internally insert the reference and superscript the text. Makes sense for usability POV because the normal incrementing is not broken in this way. But in my 4.3 installation this reference is not updated if I add another footnote before the referenced (e.g.He heard quiet steps1 behind him2. That didn't bode1 well. The last 1 is a (working) link to footnote 2). Update fields (F9) does not help, page preview is the same. And when I remove the footnote its reference needs to be cleared. Otherwise I get an Error: Reference source not found. So putting all together I would say we need a new type of reference (or special treatment for refs to footnotes). Using a cross-ref is the way to go. The newly inserted cross-ref should be set with the Footnote Anchor character style instead of hard-formatting it using superscript. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 73151] Navigator, Gallery, StylesFormatting should open in the Sidebar
Hi, dunno where to post, so as this is related to the Sidebar, here it goes. If you think this should be submitted as a new bug entry, just tell me. WRT the Sidebar, it is, in my view, a necessity to have keyboard shortcuts associated with the pane selection. I didn't notice if there's any yet. A professional writer or power user needs accessing the Navigator and the Stylist all the time. Keeping the current shortcuts (F5 and F11 resp.) is a requirement. BTW, having new ones for the other Sidebar panes would ensure consistency. Thanks, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 73151] Navigator, Gallery, StylesFormatting should open in the Sidebar
Hi, Le 07/08/2014 14:55, bugzilla-dae...@freedesktop.org a écrit : As I said, the ideal solution would be to have detachable panes in the toolbar -- the same approach that GIMP, Inkscape, and Adobe CS programs take. It'd be great if you could find someone to work on that. I don't use any of those, so I can't tell. Unless I misunderstood you, is this not what's exactly happening currently with the Navigator (F5) and the Stylist (F11)? The compromise that I would suggest, then, if we must have the individual panes as well as the sidebar, is to put the panes into View Floating Panes (and remove them from the toolbar). Dunno how restrictive is your wording Floating Panes, but it is obvious to me that these panes *must* be able to be anchored. Are you trying to mend something that's not broken? -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 81475] Meta: enhancing Writer's standard and formatting toolbars
Le 07/08/2014 15:22, bugzilla-dae...@freedesktop.org a écrit : The concept of styles are foreign to many users and they will stick with using the font names dialog to select fonts they want to use and i doubt there is anything that will change this behaviour unless styles are introduced in a new manner that is very ease to grasp. +1 Yes, but the font name drop-down is rarely used, Could you elaborate, please? When I see the people around me (corporate environment, 400+ users) who don't use styles (most of them, unfortunately), the font drop-down *is* used very often. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Bug 81902] UI: Navigator-window should be not floating but fixed on left side
Hi, Le 31/07/2014 08:28, bugzilla-dae...@freedesktop.org a écrit : https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=81902 Samuel Mehrbrodt s.mehrbr...@gmail.com changed: What|Removed |Added Status|UNCONFIRMED |RESOLVED Resolution|--- |WONTFIX CC||s.mehrbr...@gmail.com --- Comment #2 from Samuel Mehrbrodt s.mehrbr...@gmail.com --- We have decided to remove that floating window since the navigator is in the sidebar (see bug #73151). Unless I missed the obvious, the sidebar doesn't allow to view the Navigator *and* the Stylist both at once. In this case, I much prefer the two individual panels, anchored one above the other (on the right ;) -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [writer] Where is the table cell unprotection option?
Hi, I'm currently playing with Writer tables. The Table menu has a Protect Cells entry which I had to use. Unless I'm blind or I overlooked smthg, I can't find any Unprotection option in the same menu. Of course, I have customized the Table toolbar so that it now shows both options, but it seems strange to me that the user can protect a cell using a menu option but can't unprotect it with the same means. Of course, I know of other means to get unprotected cells like right-clicking or using the Navigator. Still I think the main menu should have both options or none. Best, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer
Hi, Le 14/11/2013 17:10, Mirek M. a écrit : I would definitely vote for removing these buttons from the scrollbar. I wouldn't. Many people use it without using the Navigator (yes, they are wrong but that's life :) If we get a number of complaints about the feature being available only from the Navigator, we can add it to the status bar, which at least has a static height on all platforms. Wouldn't this add clutter to the status bar? Given that it's been removed from Office 2013 without vocal complaints (it seems), I don't think there will be need for that. Argh! Stop comparing LibO to MSO. Please. LibO has to get its own personality and be itself. Promoting styles, for instance :) -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Remove the Navigator button below the scrollbar in Writer
Hi Mirek, Le 14/11/2013 22:45, Mirek M. a écrit : On Thu, Nov 14, 2013 at 8:49 PM, Jean-Francois Nifenecker jean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net mailto:jean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net wrote: Hi, Le 14/11/2013 17:10, Mirek M. a écrit : I would definitely vote for removing these buttons from the scrollbar. I wouldn't. Many people use it without using the Navigator (yes, they are wrong but that's life :) Can you back up that statement? Yes. The first fact is, in the French version at least, the Navigator is not displayed by defaut. Nor is the Stylist, BTW. BTW2: I've always felt that those two (Navigator and Stylist) should be defaulted as anchored on the right side of the screen, the default zoom being Optimal. That's just my view about the default ;) If the Navigator is not on screen, the users won't see its items. And won't use them. I'm dealing with 400+ users and regularly meet 10s more because of my job. I estimate less than 1% (yes: ONE per cent) have *ever* wondered what that funny button is for. On a more general pov, the users are using the text processor as a typewriter. They have no clue about what can be done using the software. Soem of them actually see the Navigation button (caution: terms collision) and *do* use it... Not necessarily. The three buttons feel right at home next to the navigation section of the status bar (the one that says Page 1/1). All that's needed is to add the three buttons next to it. The added advantage here is that we could theme these buttons to fit with the rest of the status bar. iWork Pages does the same thing [1]. Thx for the link. Also, the three buttons are cluttering up the scrollbar, where they stick out like a sore thumb. They don't fit in well with any operating system's scroll bars and are sometimes too small to be comfortably targeted with a mouse (and, as mentioned, sometimes even too small for the icons to be visible at all). My main gripe with the Navigation buttons is that they are placed very far from the menus, forcing the user to move the mouse across the screen (using the Navigator is much more mouse friendly). I'd have them at the top of the vertical scrollbar instead. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] File menu thoughts ...
Hi Michael, Le 09/10/2013 17:57, Michael Meeks a écrit : Just a quick query; I rather like the idea of turning the 'File' menu into rather a more advanced / full-screen/window way of popping up details about the document, and eventually providing a more intuitive place to anchor - document statistics, embedding of images / multimedia etc. as well as better ways to browse templates / cloud etc. my main grief lies with the current Properties pages : 1. A standard shortcup should be available (I have to set mine every now and then when I update), for an easier access to the metadata 2. Inserting metadata should be more user friendly, in both directions : -- setting a metadata value from a value in the document (eg : setting the document name from selected words) --- inserting a metadata value using a shorcut in the document (eg : I press a shortcut, the software then shows a menu with all current metadata variables, and a Add... entry for adding a new one). My 2 euro-cents, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar
Hi Cor, my time is very sparse as well. Sorry for the delay. Le 26/09/2013 21:05, Cor Nouws a écrit : -- styles and formatting window: possibility of hiding styles This allows document creators to have a set of basic styles which won't be used by the final users. These only see the styles they are meant to apply. AFAIK, the current hiding mechanism do support that well. Can you pls explain what misses? Yes. In a business/administrative environment, it is quite often that some people create the templates that are to be used company-wide. In this situation, the template-makers may create basis styles that are then given children for actual use by final users. EG : I may set a paragraph style MyBasis with all the basic settings for all my documents. Then, when I derive real styles for different documents, they inherit from that basis style. The basis style is not meant for users but only for styles conception. What I'd like, and unless I missed smthg here, is the ability to hide the basis style from the users view. IOW, only give users a view on what they really need to complete their job in their context. Hopefully I was clear enough, that time. All the best, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] LO's styles are more confusing then MSO's (Was Re: some thoughts on the Sidebar)
Hi Pedro, Le 19/09/2013 12:02, Pedro a écrit : To be honest the Microsoft approach is much more efficient: when you press the Bold button, the Style is automatically changed to Normal+Bold which allows you to modify the Style for all Bold word at a later stage... Didn't know that. My latest use of MSOffice was in the MSO97 times ;-) Maybe LO should make the buttons have the same effect? From a user perspective it is applying a direct formatting but in the background it is creating and applying Styles... This is interesting, indeed. But I see a problem here: the automatic setting (the bad word is automatic). This won't make styles apparent to users and you may end with users changing bold to italics by hand, just because they miss the style side of the thing. I always (well, quite always ;) disable automatic behaviours, just because it means you forget it after a (short) while and if things go bad, you don't know how to set them back. Having been in first level help desk for years, I can see how often people are bitten by such automatisms (auto backup is an example). Just my 2 cents ;) and mine, as well :-) -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] LO's styles are more confusing then MSO's (Was Re: some thoughts on the Sidebar)
Hi, Le 18/09/2013 18:38, dollyp a écrit : I think that it is too simplistic to just think that styles are the answer to everything. Well, no. What's simplistic is to think a computer is a glorified typewriter. Unfortunately for the masses and for more than 20 years, *all* software publishers (the MSs, WordStar, Borland, incl. Star Division and Sun when it comes to OOo/LibO/AOO) have always used that motto: computing is easy. That motto is meant to please the bosses: easy means costless with no or little training. To John Doe it means he may use the computer at home effortlessly, even grandpa and grandma may. Sorry to rain on your party: this is plain wrong. Computing has to be learnt, just like any other technique or craft. Those who miss that requirement will stay away from the big picture, I'm afraid. - Using a computer is difficult. Noone wants to hear these words, but they have to be told. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] LO's styles are more confusing then MSO's (Was Re: some thoughts on the Sidebar)
Le 18/09/2013 18:45, Pedro a écrit : To do the same with Styles you need to select the Paragraph and at least 5 mouse clicks (assuming you know where Styles are) ;) Yes, for sure. But changing a style is extensive: the changes apply throughout the document, whereas a local format is, well, local. IOW, changing a style is worth the few extra clicks, if any and setting direct formatting is actually requiring many more clicks (you forgot to multiply the local formatting clicks by the number of local settings). -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] some thoughts on the Sidebar
Hi Cor, Le 18/09/2013 17:16, Cor Nouws a écrit : It would be my strong, very strong, preference to make controls for direct formatting hidden, far hidden, and clearly show styles in a useful way. \o/ Yeah! I love you! Go for it! We *need* that! Styles are the very feature that distinguishes LibO. It should be highly publicised. BTW, enhancements to styles are possible: -- styles and formatting window: possibility of hiding styles This allows document creators to have a set of basic styles which won't be used by the final users. These only see the styles they are meant to apply. AFAIK, the current hiding mechanism do support that well. -- Table styles A long-time missing feature -- Simplify the list styles (though I do like them) and probably others... All the best, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Proposal to limit border widths to 4 values
Le 18/06/2013 15:52, Eike Rathke a écrit : Hi Michael, On Friday, 2013-06-07 16:25:38 +0200, Michael Stahl wrote: sure, screen has limited resolution. this may be more relevant for Calc than Writer, since i'd guess spreadsheets are not printed as often. Don't underestimate the number of documents where spreadsheets were abused to design mouth-painted forms and handouts with lots of fancy borders. History knows plenty tales of horror. Here's one of those tales: I've seen with my very eyes an organization chart created using... Calc. I get goose-bumps when I think to the work that was required from the poor guy who made that... err... thing. Worse, if possible: this %$§ is *still* in use although I trained these people to use Draw :,( -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Template manager issues pending
Le 20/05/2013 09:34, pierre-yves.sa...@laposte.net a écrit : Hello to all Just to clarify this because I fear that my proposals have been misunderstood. 61396 - FILEOPEN: [Template Manager]Possibility to edit a template that is not in the repository, is lacking I saw a comment with the proposal : when a user does Open from the File menu and selects a template, then LO should open the template ; instead of creating a new file from the template. Could work, but would _introduce_ the opposite problem, that a user cannot start a new file from a template that is not in the template repository... My proposal is: 1. File Open Select a .ot(tsg...) file creates a new document (current behavior, no change) 2. File Open Select a .ot(tsg...) file *AND* select type: ODF model xxx edits the model New behavior that does not introduce the problem raised by Cor: - user can start a new file from any template - user can edit any template - the dialog already has everything that is needed. (no checkbox or other additional control required). While I understand what Pierre-Yves discusses, I'd emphasise smthg here. From a user POV, if I File / Open / Template : I want to *open* a template, ie modify it. This is *not* what a user wants on a regular basis. If I File / New / Template, I guess this should state File / New / From template, I want to create a *new* document *from* a template. This is what a user wants most of the time. I guess the words have some weight here. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Think about the Save Icon and Navigator Icon please
Hi Astron, Le 19/02/2013 19:08, Stefan Knorr a écrit : Not sure why you think one could only recognize this item from filing cabinets at work – my nightstand looks very similar to the cabinet in question (it's made from wood not metal, though) and it stores my socks. :) well, I'm probably suffering from lack of imagination but I can tell you that it took me a lng time to understand what was that strange thing on the Save toolbutton under my Linux at home. I'm one of these workers who never had such a file cabinet at work nor saw any in their neighborhood. I can ascertain that most of my colleagues wouldn't know either (fortunately we're using the Windows version with the floppy icon ;-) And it doesn't look like any nightstand I had. Some kind of a cultural gap, maybe? -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Deleting multiple styles at once
Hi Michel, Le 13/02/2013 10:59, Michel Renon a écrit : While I agree in the general principle (if it's undoable, don't ask confirmation), there is something different here : when you undo the deletion of a style, the style is not associated anymore to the text. So it's a partial undo (just tested in LO 3.5 3.6) [1]. In this case, the user must be informed that the text will definitely loose his style (and can't be undone). Good point. I accept that this is a drawback. Now, given the audience for heavy styles usage (ie, power users), does it really apply? I haven't got a definitive answer here. Or if devs can re-associate style to the text, then no need for confirmation. But it should be much much more complicated ! Yep. This would be the best option and I agree it might be difficult to implement. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Deleting multiple styles at once
Hi, Le 08/02/2013 13:32, Samuel Mehrbrodt a écrit : We should not annoy the user with Confirmation dialogs if the change is undo-able (which _is_ the case). So _one_ warning would be ok, if some of the styles are in use. But if they are not, we don't need a Confirm dialog. Every time anaction is un-doable, then no warning is necessary. Now, to the topic: style-s deletion. -- People using styles and managing them are -- unfortunately -- very few. and -- People using styles and managing them know what they do when they add/change/delete one ore more styles. Thus, a confirmation dialog is unnecessary for them. Moreover, the proposal I read above in this thread seems an half-full plate: The previous behavior was: you get a message box with text depending on the fact you're trying to delete an used style or not. If so you get a message: You are deleting an applied Style! Do you really want to delete Style name? Options: YES NO To a newbie, this is too much or not enough. Too much because the action can be undone, as stated above; not enough because the user is not told what the consequences can be. To a power user, this is a disruption in his workflow. If the style isn't used you get the same message but without the first rule: Do you really want to delete Style name? Options YES NO Same here: if I delete the style, what are the consequences? - state it or stay silent. So, as you might have guessed ;) my proposal is to get rid of any message box for that matter. My 2 euro-cents, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Should formatting apply to word at cursor position or only characters typed after formatting was invoked
Le 08/12/2012 20:28, Mirek M. a écrit : We've discused this on today's design IRC meeting, and we agreed that, when within a word, subscript and superscript should not apply to the whole word, but other formatting commands should, as it's usual for a user to want to italicize or underline a whole word, but uncommon for a whole word to be a subscript or a superscript. Would this subscript/superscript behaviour be optional? I've seen technical docs using superscript for whole words. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Fwd: [PATCH] Hide the rulers in Writer by default for a cleaner look]
Le 01/11/2012 11:32, Michael Meeks a écrit : Hi guys, Thoughts on this ? I guess there are issues around seeing / creating tabs etc. ATB, Michael. Forwarded Message Subject: [PATCH] Hide the rulers in Writer by default for a cleaner look I have submitted a patch for review: https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/956 ... Hide the rulers in Writer by default for a cleaner look This is consistent with Impress. Might need to be discussed with ux-advise Certainly *not* Rulers -- that I don't use to set tab stops or something -- help having a global view of the document. Hiding rulers, hiding the document margins, hiding the non-printable chars are all children of the same kind: hide things to user, things that *are* indeed useful for an intelligent use of the tools. Opposite to what software creators say to ignorants: computing is *not* easy. Computing is *not* intuitive at all. Computing has to be learnt and taught. In this regard, text automation *must* be learnt. I strongly beg the powers-that-be in LibO to understand that hiding things will *not* help users, it will make them more difficult to use the software. We, as a free-software, have a responsibility: make the people understand that, whatever tool they elect, they have to understand it then to learn its use. So I repeat my answer: the rulers must certainly *not* be hidden, neither in Writer nor in Impress. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [Writer] Header/footer deletion from the UI
Hello, (not sure whether this goes to design or ux, so I'm flooding both :) LibO version 3.6.4.0+ (Build ID: 2f42a6c) Xubuntu 12.04 Writer interface - Using the header (resp. footer) option in the UI If I ask to delete an existing header using the Header button, I'm receiving a confirmation dialog informing that the header contents will be lost. I feel that this behaviour is interfeering with the user workflow. IMO, the header deletion should be immediate (if the users asks for that, of course he knows that the contents will disappear!) so that the user can continue working on his document. But, of course, this operation should be undoable (which it is not currently). Thanks for your comments, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Advice required on auto text resize (Impress)
Le 13/10/2012 23:58, Jean-Baptiste Faure a écrit : I think it is a good idea. Perhaps this icon should have two states, one which indicates that this property is enabled and another when autofit is in action (text size is actually reduced) with a tooltip saying that autofit is enabled and what is the actual font size. And, disabling the aufit feature after having enabled it should give the original font size back, of course. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Disabling file opening and saving in print preview mode
Hi, Le 31/05/2012 17:48, Kohei Yoshida a écrit : Views and opinions appreciated. As Regina has already pointed out: *page* preview print preview. Page preview doesn't imply printing. Eg; exporting to PDF is usefully previewed with Page preview. BTW, I share the comment that the print preview is cluttered. To me, it is too much integrated with the modules. A modal window would less disturb the user, making things clear about what is what (eg: the page preview in Calc displays two zoom rulers... why so? Which is the right one?) -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Disabling file opening and saving in print preview mode
Le 03/06/2012 15:23, Stefan Knorr (Astron) a écrit : Hello again, so, one thing is always sure, when Regina writes here: lots of the misunderstandings I have about the inner workings of the product are resolved. Thanks! ;) But still... it would be a useful feature for the PDF export dialogue I didn't ask for that. I just noted that the page preview is not limited to printing and may have other uses. Anyway, if it is easy to export a PDF over and over again, I think it is better to handle the dirty details before. The most useful thing about the Page Preview indeed seems to be modifying margins. But that is only useful for Calc users, since in every other application it is trivial to turn on rulers in the main view/rulers are by default turned on in the main view. For the uninitiated, it might also be somewhat counterintuitive to set the page margins in the Page/Print Preview. It is not only counter-intuitive (BTW, there's not such thing as intuition when it comes to IT), it is *difficult* and highly imprecise. I have trained 5 groups to Calc (entry-level, 35 people in all) during the last two weeks and all agreed that setting margins is more precise with the Format/Page dialog and that the page preview is quite unpracticable to this regard. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Mirek's visit in SUSE :-)
Le 26/05/2012 11:31, Stefan Knorr (Astron) a écrit : Right, so I've looked around a bit on the internets/in LibreOffice: * I found one page that claimed Overwrite mode had no practical use today, I didn't find any that listed any uses of it. * The only use case I can imagine is filling out order forms that are comprised of ASCII text only (with as placeholders) – it's safe to say that no one does that any more since PDF's are reasonably easy to generate. * I've found enough pages that describe how utterly confusing/frustrating Overwrite mode is to many people, due to it being so easy to trigger * In Word 2007+ you need to enable the Ins key in the options before you can use it * Thunderbird/Firefox/Evolution/Google Docs/Apple Pages don't have any Overwrite mode at all * Gedit still has it (and it's turned on/off with Ins) * Shift-Ins currently does the same as Ctrl-V (paste) – so that particular accelerator won't work, but Ctrl-Ins isn't taken yet * As always, accelerators are configurable, so if anyone really needs Ins, they can just set it up this way * I noticed that unlike with the Selection modes there's no menu item for Overwrite mode... which is bad, because it also means that people won't notice when we've changed the accelerator. Agreed with all of this. Overwrite mode is mostly a thing of the past. When people inadvertently press the Insert key, they feel rather annoyed. Conclusion: * I personally wouldn't mind seeing Overwrote mode go entirely, +1 * If we want to keep Overwrite mode alive, but without a status bar indicator: ##1 do it like MSO does it – add a preference that's turned off by default ##2 add a menu item Overwrite mode to the Edit menu, which would obviously mostly serve to advertise our new accelerator ** Mirek's proposal of a red caret seems very good to me if we go with either of the above two ways (but a red block would be even more descriptive methinks) Dunno about the red thing wrt visually impaired people, but, at least, having a block caret is a good idea. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] layout of data bars
Hi Markus, Le 21/05/2012 00:46, Markus Mohrhard a écrit : Hey, the data bar code is now in a quite good shape so that I can focus on the smaller things. There is one thing were I have no idea which one is better. You'll find attached two versions of the same file. In the small version the data bar does not fill the whole cell while it does in the large version. Excel uses something similar to the small version. wow! Which version do you prefer and which one is the clearest from an UX point of view? If, using the Format/Cell, Borders dialog, the user may insert some space between the cell contents (ie, the data bar) and the cell (possibly invisible) border, then the large layout is the best for me. In this case, with the small version, the user is constrained to have some spacing which he might not want. Thus the large layout fits more needs/tastes. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] A sheet by default
Le 21/05/2012 11:33, Mirek M. a écrit : Hi everyone, I'm wondering -- is there a good reason for creating a spreadsheet with three sheets by default instead of with one sheet? I feel that creating three sheets by default unnecessarily increases the document size and confuses readers of the document, as they have to look through all three sheets to see if there is additional content -- and they often don't anymore, as they're used to those two sheets being empty. That means they're potentially missing out on data should the creator have chosen to actually use those two additional sheets. Could we make the default one sheet? As for the file size, here's a test I've just done (Lib0 3.3.4): Open LibO Calc. Enter A in Sheet1.A1, then Save as-is (3 default sheets), the file size is 7,413 B Delete the 2 unused sheets, then save. Now the file size is 7,398 B - is a 15 B difference such a big deal? As for the users' confusion: yes, it might be. OTOH, I think it might also help users understand a spreadsheet can hold more than one sheet. As a result, I'd stay with the current 3 default sheets scheme. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] [writer] Paragraph formatting
Hello, in the Format / Paragraph dialog, Borders, I consider there's an inconsistency: while the Shadow style Position preset selection is framed, the Line arrangement Default preset is not (there's a tiny shadow surrounding the selected preset). Unless there's a reason I don't see, I think it would be better to have both presets' selection to behave consistently. Thanks for your attention, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] Full customization of LibreOffice
Hi! Le 06/05/2012 14:24, Daniel Mania a écrit : Here is another suggestion ... this time less difficult to implement. One thing that has been bothering me for some time now is that LibreOffice is not giving me enough freedom to customize everything I want to. Users can create their own document templates, but we cannot create templates for charts or other objects. Defaults can be customized in LibreOffice, but the possibilities are very limited. The only thing I could find was options for charts and here only the colour table can be modified. But what about all the other options? Why not set the line width to 0.05 cm by default, instead of 0.08 cm? Why not set XY-plots with points and lines as default? Why not set a certain colour for rectangles or ellipses as default? IMO, this is all about a styles expansion. Could be very useful, yes, but would require much coding I guess, contrary to what you're thinking. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
[Libreoffice-ux-advise] Proportional cropping of images
Hi, dunno if this is UX or Design only, so I post to both ;) When we want to redimension/crop an image (eg in Writer), we can alternatively use: -- the mouse we just drag the image handles to get the wanted result. Pressing [Shift] along with the dragging will crop proportionaly. So far so good. The drawback is that mouse use is never very precise. For a precise handling, we need to go to the Image dialog. -- the Image dialog (double-click the image) In the Crop thumbnail we just change the percentage(s) or the dimension(s) and that's it. Well, not if we need a proportional cropping by knowing a reference dimension. Here we *must* change the percent only, taking care of the similar proportions ourselves to get the result. Changing a dimension value will require to look at the corresponding percentage, then get to the percent value for the other dimension and change that percentage proportionaly. Doh. Also, I'm not sure the percent value to be an exact calculation from a dimension value as percentages never seem to display any decimals. ISTM that a Proportional checkbox would be welcome in the dialog in order to bypass those multiple steps and allow a simple way of changing dimensions proportionaly. That checkbox state should be recorded. This has annoyed me since the very beginning when I got to use OOo 1.1. Would the change be a big deal? Thanks for your attention, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] named formatting attributs overwrite automatic formatting attributs (paragraph / character)
Hi, Le 29/03/2012 22:09, Rafael Rocha Daud a écrit : This is intended behaviour. LibreOffice makes an assumption that when you apply a style you want the paragraph to look like that, so it overrides the direct formatting that had been applied to the whole paragraph. The assumption works otherwise when the direct formatting was affecting only a portion: you want the paragraph to look like the style, but you want that portion to retain it's direct formatting. Generally, direct formatting overrides styles, but they are not really meant to be used in conjunction, but you still can if you want to. The best thing to do in your specific case is to change the style itself so it applies your bold atribute (or you may create a new style, based on that one, to do that). The second best thing is to apply the direct formatting after applying the style (but remember you will have to do that for each paragraph you want that atribute in, and you will have to re-do it if you later change the paragraph style again. To me there are two questions : the one Maxime asked, ie the homogeneity between paragraph style and character style use. The second one is whether the tool should encourage to a correct use of the tool or not. Homogeneity I share Maxime's thoughts and, imo, both style types should apply the same, iow, applying a style should replace the underlying formatting (direct or style). Correct use Styles are the first reason to adopt LibreOffice. This should be highly emphasized and promoted. As a trainer, I always bring questions back to styles: 3 times upon 2, using a style solves the problem (yes, 3 times upon 2 ;). Hence, direct formatting should be discouraged. Better yet, for instance, pressing the Bold toolbutton should apply the correct character style (bold emphasis by default) instead of setting the bold property to the underlying characters. Side note: I feel a very important need for table styles in Writer. -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] ux-advise advice
Hello Michael and all, wow! At least! Some *precise* and to the point answers! Thanks! Le 18/02/2012 09:21, Michael Meeks a écrit : On Sat, 2012-02-18 at 08:50 +0100, Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote: As I understand (correct me if necessary) this list goal -- which I find excellent -- is to narrow the topic to actual user experience enhancements Well - the idea is that this is a place that hackers can get advice from user experience experts. ie. I want to do XYZ change, I have a patch to do it - first let me check with some UX experts. It is intended to try to build good relationships between designers and those who actually implement their designs, thus far it seems to be working. Ah! Ah! I'm starting to get the real thing which has nothing to see with what I was presented at first: this list is in *no* way for users to ask for a change/enhancement to the devs! It is all the way around: the devs are those asking for advice to the world. So, if this is the actual goal, telling people in the users' discussion lists to come here is plain *wrong*. - The list to go is *[design]* isn't it? My feeling, at this first participation, is that apparently it's quite difficult to make ideas flow here when one's not from the happy few. The design list is a great place for this 'flowing' of ideas. uh uh... So here are a few questions of mine that will help me understand the nuts and bolts of this list: Where do the discussions lead ? Who decides to (not) implement a change discussed here ? When is a consensus considered valid ? Who decides that ? So in all of these cases, the discussions produce advice to a developer who asked for advice. It is fairly useless having a consensus solely of people who are unable to make any real change in the code :-) As such, pissing off the developers by immoderate criticism is a highly ineffective way to achieve any change, instead it is likely to solidify opposition. Now I have a much clearer view of this list usage. It seems I goofed and pissed people off without even knowing I did so. Sorry for that. - I guess TDF should make things clearer to the outer world and internally. *Much* clearer. This would be a service to all: the devs who wouldn't be bothered by some whingers (like myself, though I wouldn't classify me as such) and users like myself who wouldn't spoil their time sending hopeful messages to some inappropriate place. As I wish to post a few new messages wrt various UX topics I'm considering important, I'd better know how things are held so that the threads don't go wild because of respective ignorance. If this is initiated by you, and you have no intention of doing any coding on the topic, this is the wrong place - please try the 'design' list. *Now* I understand that. Thanks again for clarifying. - don't you think it would be *very* beneficial to all to make things *very* *very* *VERY* clear about what each list is meant for? Who's asking what to whom? Thanks again for answering and giving me a clearer view about UX. It's a shame that those who participate (hey, Cedric!) are themselves directing people here while we (I) should go elsewhere (ie, [design]). Then they feel pissed off... Doh! So I see that my place is not here. I'll un-subscribe when this thread is over and leave you in peace. Accept my apologies for my dumb questions. I'll go the [design] route. Hopefully my messages will find their way there. PS: wrt the text boundaries thingy, do you know if that feature discussed on [design]? If it was not, then we're in a catch 22. Best regards, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux ___ Libreoffice-ux-advise mailing list Libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org http://lists.freedesktop.org/mailman/listinfo/libreoffice-ux-advise
Re: [Libreoffice-ux-advise] ux-advise advice
Hi again Michael, it's a real pleasure to talk with you in a smooth and sensible manner. I feel much better than when reading some previous msgs on the other thread. I may be somewhat long here and, hopefully, won't bother and take too much of your (precious) time. Before I go any further, let me introduce myself -- which I should have done long before: I'm a 56 yo French civil servant using OOo since 2005 when my employer decided to move from MSO. Since then I never looked back and I have always been very pleased with OOo. In a former part of my professional life, I had been an unofficial part-time programmer (Turbo-Pascal, Object Pascal then Delphi). Though this was supposed to be a part-time job, it in fact took most of my time, daily and nightly for nearly 15yrs. I was forced to stop sometine after I switched job as I couldn't do both. Now, I've been an IT tech (support chain) for 20yrs. As such, among a lot of other things, I help and train my colleagues to our office automation suite of choice (was MSO, now OOo, soon to be LibO). More importantly, I can see everyday how and why my colleagues use the software, what they do right and what they do wrong. To the risk of seeming overly proud, I think I have a broad view of our corporate workflow and I can tell where the local pitfalls are (wrt office automation tools). I have some ideas of what's wrong with the current textprocessors and in which direction some changes would be beneficial to their users. (hence my visit here ;) Now, back to the discussion :) Le 18/02/2012 15:51, Michael Meeks a écrit : On Sat, 2012-02-18 at 14:00 +0100, Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote: Ah! Ah! I'm starting to get the real thing which has nothing to see with what I was presented at first: this list is in *no* way for users to ask for a change/enhancement to the devs! Right - we have few-to-no mechanisms for users to ask devs for things, beyond bugzilla and perhaps some user surveys if someone wants to put the work in to set these up. This is in large part because we have a factor of ~a million more users than developers. It is hard to think of a functioning system that can deal with 10^6 random conflicting opinions -per-developer- and filter them in a meaningful way. It is all the way around: the devs are those asking for advice to the world. Preferably not the world, but some known-sane-and-decisive UI / LibreOffice feature experts, like Astron, Christophe, Regina, and others. As I understand from your words, here's part of the workflows: users - [users lists] - UI experts - community members devs - [UX] - UI experts designers - [design] - UI experts others(*) - (*) who? Are users listened at? On what criteria? Who are the designers? What do they do with the lists discussions? What are their interactions with the devs? If there are UI experts who have a view, they should be here, such that when people ask for advice they can give it. Ok, that's neat. What makes someone a UI expert? Fine - please write up some new blurb for the list description, and/or edit the wiki where it refers to this to some new, more descriptive / balanced position. Which page do you refer to (there are plenty ;)? As for what's on the site/wiki (see copies below) I can tell that UX and design are mixed up, which doesn't help a user's choice. Well, [UX] remains quite hidden, though. From what I read on the second page, I can't tell where User Experience is dealt with: is it UX or is it Support and Training (as the helpdesk personel has also a wide view of user experience)? Also, I can find links from the Design pages that point to UX (wikipedia). This doesn't help making sense and encourages coming to [ux] while [design] is probably better suited. But I'm still unsure... On this page: http://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/ one can read 8 -- Do user experience [UX] and visual design: Design provides the visual basis for any tool. In addition to the factual content, it is able to transport usability, quality and emotions. The LibreOffice Design Team dedicates its skills and creativity to improving LibreOffice by visual means, inside the office suite, in user interaction and at any place where the product, or the community behind it, is visible in public. Our team consists of professionals and ambitious amateurs in several areas. If you're interested, and want to share and improve your knowledge by working collaboratively in an active and friendly team, join in. -- 8 And on that one: http://www.libreoffice.org/get-involved/ux-visual-designers/ we read 8 -- UX/Visual Designers If you're interested in user experience and visual design work, we'd love to hear from you. Primary points of contact and resources: the Design Team wiki page and the Design mailing list. LibreOffice aims
