Re: Offer to help development: Convert MIDI to Lilypond

2016-12-28 Thread karl 
Graham:
> On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 08:21:58PM +0100, k...@aspodata.se wrote:
> > > At that point, an interested person -- perhaps yourself? -- could
> > > offer further patches which improved the quality of the lilypond
> > > code.
> > 
> > Well, I'm working on theese:
> >  http://turkos.aspodata.se/git/musik/bin/miditoly.pl
> >  http://turkos.aspodata.se/git/musik/bin/midi_to_lilypond.tex
> 
> Hmm.  At the moment, there is no perl used in user scripts in
> lilypond, and thus we do not distribute a perl interpreter as part
> of our application bundle.  Adding perl would be a significant
> complication.

Yes, I know, that is why I haven't offered it for inclusion.

> That said, I'm quite willing to believe that your experience with
> miditoly.pl could help inform the conversion process in midi2ly.py
> -- what types of quantization work best, or how to decide which
> accidental to use, etc.  Once we have the basics working, Joe may
> want to investigate more advanced techniques.

That is why I started on the tex file, so that someone else could
grasp the issues and implementation choises.

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

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Re: Offer to help development: Convert MIDI to Lilypond

2016-12-28 Thread Graham Percival 
On Wed, Dec 28, 2016 at 08:21:58PM +0100, k...@aspodata.se wrote:
> > At that point, an interested person -- perhaps yourself? -- could
> > offer further patches which improved the quality of the lilypond
> > code.
> 
> Well, I'm working on theese:
>  http://turkos.aspodata.se/git/musik/bin/miditoly.pl
>  http://turkos.aspodata.se/git/musik/bin/midi_to_lilypond.tex

Hmm.  At the moment, there is no perl used in user scripts in
lilypond, and thus we do not distribute a perl interpreter as part
of our application bundle.  Adding perl would be a significant
complication.

That said, I'm quite willing to believe that your experience with
miditoly.pl could help inform the conversion process in midi2ly.py
-- what types of quantization work best, or how to decide which
accidental to use, etc.  Once we have the basics working, Joe may
want to investigate more advanced techniques.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: Offer to help development: Convert MIDI to Lilypond

2016-12-28 Thread karl 
Graham:
...
> At that point, an interested person -- perhaps yourself? -- could
> offer further patches which improved the quality of the lilypond
> code.

Well, I'm working on theese:
 http://turkos.aspodata.se/git/musik/bin/miditoly.pl
 http://turkos.aspodata.se/git/musik/bin/midi_to_lilypond.tex

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

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Re: Offer to help development: Convert MIDI to Lilypond

2016-12-27 Thread Graham Percival 
On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 08:43:34AM +0100, k...@aspodata.se wrote:
> Graham:
> > That is correct; the python midi2ly conversion is quite
> > independent of the rest of LilyPond.  As a result, it is an
> > excellent place to begin!  :)
> 
> So I propose that a better course of action would be to research

Thank you for the suggestion.

At the moment, it appears that midi.c is broken on at least one
architecture.  Fixing it would be a pain, and would do nothing to
reduce the problem it poses.  Moving to a completely python
solution would represent a solid step forward, both in terms of
reducing technical debt, and also in terms of a new contributor
getting familiar with our development process.

At that point, an interested person -- perhaps yourself? -- could
offer further patches which improved the quality of the lilypond
code.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: Offer to help development: Convert MIDI to Lilypond

2016-12-26 Thread karl 
Graham:
> On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 11:44:15AM -0500, Joseph Austin wrote:
> > I am offering to help with the project of converting midi2ly
> > from C to Python, or more generally converting MIDI to Lilypond.
> 
> Excellent!  I'd be delighted to serve as your mentor.
> 
> > I'm not sure if this is a good place for someone new to Lilypond
> > internals to start, but it seems this should be a relatively
> > independent utility so I shouldn't need a significant background
> > in the internals.
> 
> That is correct; the python midi2ly conversion is quite
> independent of the rest of LilyPond.  As a result, it is an
> excellent place to begin!  :)

If you want it as an exercise, that's fine, but if you want a better 
midi to lilypond converter you better start looking at what kind of 
output you want since the output that midi2ly produces could be much
better than what it is today.

So I propose that a better course of action would be to research
. what kind of lilypond code output you want to produce
. the net for a suitable lowlevel midi lib
. the net for alternative converters that are presently availble

and let that steer your direction.

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

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Re: Offer to help development: Convert MIDI to Lilypond

2016-12-26 Thread David Kastrup 
David Pirotte  writes:

> Hello,
>
>> On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 11:44:15AM -0500, Joseph Austin wrote:
>> > I am offering to help with the project of converting midi2ly
>> > from C to Python, or more generally converting MIDI to Lilypond.  
>
> Joseph, did you consider using Guile Scheme instead? One can argue
> about the power,
> flexibility ... Guile is just unbeatable :), it is used by lilypond
> itself, so in the
> end you'll be better prepared to help other lily devs (which I'm not)
> ... my 2c

I don't think we have any utilities written in Guile/Scheme.  So the
likelihood of him being able to be better prepared to help other lily
devs is more than dubious.

For better or worse, the use of Guile in LilyPond is very much
constricted to LilyPond proper (in the form of libguile) rather than
general programming.  I think there is not much other than
lilypond-invoke-editor.scm actually written as a utility program in
Guile.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Offer to help development: Convert MIDI to Lilypond

2016-12-26 Thread David Pirotte 
Hello,

> On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 11:44:15AM -0500, Joseph Austin wrote:
> > I am offering to help with the project of converting midi2ly
> > from C to Python, or more generally converting MIDI to Lilypond.  

Joseph, did you consider using Guile Scheme instead? One can argue about the 
power,
flexibility ... Guile is just unbeatable :), it is used by lilypond itself, so 
in the
end you'll be better prepared to help other lily devs (which I'm not) ... my 2c

I'm saying this because you mentioned earlier you do not know Python, which
means you are going to learn a new programming language, so, unless you have 
other
criteria along the line, I strongly recommend Guile (and geiser, the emacs 
inferior
mode that we all (guilers) use, which really rocks! and makes hacking just fun!

Cheers,
David

https://www.gnu.org/software/guile/
http://www.nongnu.org/geiser/

you can ask quiz on irc
channel #guile

This might be of interest as well, though I personally really don't like the 
'none
parens' syntax, it is worth reading, no matter wha your choice is/will be...:

http://www.draketo.de/proj/py2guile/


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Re: Offer to help development: Convert MIDI to Lilypond

2016-12-26 Thread Graham Percival 
On Mon, Dec 26, 2016 at 11:44:15AM -0500, Joseph Austin wrote:
> I am offering to help with the project of converting midi2ly
> from C to Python, or more generally converting MIDI to Lilypond.

Excellent!  I'd be delighted to serve as your mentor.

> I'm not sure if this is a good place for someone new to Lilypond
> internals to start, but it seems this should be a relatively
> independent utility so I shouldn't need a significant background
> in the internals.

That is correct; the python midi2ly conversion is quite
independent of the rest of LilyPond.  As a result, it is an
excellent place to begin!  :)

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: Offer to help development: Convert MIDI to Lilypond

2016-12-26 Thread David Kastrup 
Joseph Austin  writes:

> Lilypond Developers:
>
> I am offering to help with the project of converting midi2ly from C to
> Python, or more generally converting MIDI to Lilypond.
>
> Per attached, I understand an initial conversion attempt has been
> started and is awaiting completion and testing.
>
> I'm not sure if this is a good place for someone new to Lilypond
> internals to start,
> but it seems this should be a relatively independent utility so I
> shouldn't need a significant background in the internals.
>
> I may need a "mentor" to help get started with the nuts and bolts of
> Lilypond development.
>
> I've done programming for a living in C++, Java, PHP, and a few
> others, but not Python [too new] or C [too old],
> though I am somewhat familiar with both, and also somewhat familiar
> with the structure of MIDI.

You'd need to look at what the midi module (in the LilyPond source tree
at python/midi.c) does and redo it in Python.

I haven't looked at the code or its quality, but on the surface the task
would seem to be well-confined and should yield to someone with a bit of
willingness to muddle through and make himself more acquainted with
Python again.  It is well possible that there already exist suitably
licensed modules (GPLv3+ or compatible) capable of reading Midi files in
Python, but matching them to the current midi.c interface might be more
work than it seems worth at first glance.

One challenge will be setting up a suitable developing environment for
working on this problem and being able to build and test results.  You'd
likely want to get a suitable version of the LilyDev virtual environment
for that: ask on the developer list for details and/or look up the
available information in the "Contributor's Guide" to LilyPond (part of
its documentation).  You also might want to ask on the developer list
whether or not somebody will specifically act as a mentor to get you
started on the development.

All the best!

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: Offer to help development: Convert MIDI to Lilypond

2016-12-26 Thread Urs Liska 
Hi Joseph,

welcome to the LilyPond community. It is great to see someone volunteering for 
such a task.

It is a good idea to ask for a mentor, although that person would probably be 
mostly a mediator between you and the developers.

Personally I don't think I could be that mentor but I wanted to give you 
immediate feedback, in case too many devs are in holiday mode.

It may be interesting for you that there are several current plans and ideas 
around regarding import and export to various formats.

Best wishes
Urs



Am 26. Dezember 2016 17:44:15 MEZ, schrieb Joseph Austin 
:
>Lilypond Developers:
>
>I am offering to help with the project of converting midi2ly from C to
>Python, or more generally converting MIDI to Lilypond.
>
>Per attached, I understand an initial conversion attempt has been
>started and is awaiting completion and testing.
>
>I'm not sure if this is a good place for someone new to Lilypond
>internals to start,
>but it seems this should be a relatively independent utility so I
>shouldn't need a significant background in the internals.
>
>I may need a "mentor" to help get started with the nuts and bolts of
>Lilypond development.  
>
>I've done programming for a living in C++, Java, PHP, and a few others,
>but not Python [too new] or C [too old],
>though I am somewhat familiar with both, and also somewhat familiar
>with the structure of MIDI.
>
>Joe Austin
>
>>> On Dec 25, 2016, at 4:05 AM, Federico Bruni 
>wrote:
>>> 
>>> Il giorno dom 25 dic 2016 alle 9:58, David Kastrup  ha
>scritto:
> ImportError: dlopen
>
>(/Applications/LilyPond-2-19-45.app/Contents/Resources/lib/lilypond/current/python/midi.so,
> 2): no suitable image found.  Did find:
>
>/Applications/LilyPond-2-19-45.app/Contents/Resources/lib/lilypond/current/python/midi.so:
> mach-o, but wrong architecture
> joemacbook:midi josephaustin$
> I get a similar problem trying to do the convert from within
>Frescobaldi.
> This is my first attempt at MIDI-to-Lilypond conversion,
> so I may be making some elementary error.
 This is the only file in the whole LilyPond distribution that needs
>a C
 compiler to compile.  It also makes for a whole lot of trouble. 
>What it
 does can likely be rewritten in Python without much of a
>performance
 impact for the application as a whole.
 So rewriting this module in Python proper would be very much
>desirable.
 I think that somebody™ should really do this.
 In other words: raise an issue report about this problem, and I
>think
 the suggestion to solve this problem area once and for all by not
>using
 a C module in the first place should be high on the list of
>desirable
 solutions for the issue.
>>> 
>>> I think that there's already an issue for this (and also an
>abandoned patch):
>>> https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/3067/
>>> 
>> 
>
>
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Re: Offer to help development: Convert MIDI to Lilypond

2016-12-26 Thread karl 
Joe Austin:
> I am offering to help with the project of converting midi2ly from
> C to Python, or more generally converting MIDI to Lilypond.
...

midi2ly is part python and part c, you can find them in git repo.:
 scripts/midi2ly.py
 python/midi.c
 
midi2ly has been in the repository since 2001 according to logs.

If external dependances are ok, you can find midi support for python
below the header "MIDI Mania" in

 https://wiki.python.org/moin/PythonInMusic

https://github.com/vishnubob/python-midi can possible be of help.

///

Midi file spec. are available at:

http://www.music.mcgill.ca/~ich/classes/mumt306/midiformat.pdf
https://www.midi.org/specifications/item/standard-midi-files-smf

The midi-file spec. and RP-017 could be of help.

///

If you are interested, I'm working on a similar tool, in perl though:

 http://turkos.aspodata.se/git/musik/bin/miditoly.pl

I'm using perls midi module https://metacpan.org/pod/MIDI, a simple
midi dump program is available at

 http://turkos.aspodata.se/git/musik/bin/midi.pl

///

I have just started writing a paper to discuss implementions and
huristics in the conversion:

 http://turkos.aspodata.se/git/musik/bin/midi_to_lilypond.tex

I'd be happy if you want to contribute to that paper and any possible
developments around midi -> lilypond in any programming language.

From the top of my head, on my wishful agenda is:

 collect midi files generated from different notation programs together 
   with pdf outputs from same programs

 examine and establish huristics how to identify lyrics character 
   encodings

 try to reserach and define a few conventions on how the lilypond code
   should be written and structured and write a output module/function
   for each convention
   e.g. relative and absolute pich output, names of music variables
   to match the users preferences

 research how polyfonic settings are written to midi file, how do you
   identify voices from a track with multiple voices

 research and define huristics to guess voice and instrument names

 support note scaling, i.e. duble, half note values and such

among other things.

Regards,
/Karl Hammar

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Offer to help development: Convert MIDI to Lilypond

2016-12-26 Thread Joseph Austin 
Lilypond Developers:

I am offering to help with the project of converting midi2ly from C to Python, 
or more generally converting MIDI to Lilypond.

Per attached, I understand an initial conversion attempt has been started and 
is awaiting completion and testing.

I'm not sure if this is a good place for someone new to Lilypond internals to 
start,
but it seems this should be a relatively independent utility so I shouldn't 
need a significant background in the internals.

I may need a "mentor" to help get started with the nuts and bolts of Lilypond 
development.  

I've done programming for a living in C++, Java, PHP, and a few others, but not 
Python [too new] or C [too old],
though I am somewhat familiar with both, and also somewhat familiar with the 
structure of MIDI.

Joe Austin

>> On Dec 25, 2016, at 4:05 AM, Federico Bruni  wrote:
>> 
>> Il giorno dom 25 dic 2016 alle 9:58, David Kastrup  ha scritto:
 ImportError: dlopen
 (/Applications/LilyPond-2-19-45.app/Contents/Resources/lib/lilypond/current/python/midi.so,
 2): no suitable image found.  Did find:
 /Applications/LilyPond-2-19-45.app/Contents/Resources/lib/lilypond/current/python/midi.so:
 mach-o, but wrong architecture
 joemacbook:midi josephaustin$
 I get a similar problem trying to do the convert from within Frescobaldi.
 This is my first attempt at MIDI-to-Lilypond conversion,
 so I may be making some elementary error.
>>> This is the only file in the whole LilyPond distribution that needs a C
>>> compiler to compile.  It also makes for a whole lot of trouble.  What it
>>> does can likely be rewritten in Python without much of a performance
>>> impact for the application as a whole.
>>> So rewriting this module in Python proper would be very much desirable.
>>> I think that somebody™ should really do this.
>>> In other words: raise an issue report about this problem, and I think
>>> the suggestion to solve this problem area once and for all by not using
>>> a C module in the first place should be high on the list of desirable
>>> solutions for the issue.
>> 
>> I think that there's already an issue for this (and also an abandoned patch):
>> https://sourceforge.net/p/testlilyissues/issues/3067/
>> 
> 


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