Re: es means ees???

[Richard Shann]

On Tue, 2014-10-07 at 11:04 +0900, Graham Percival wrote:
 On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 01:41:30PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
  Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes:
  
   Here, instead of ees, is written es.
  
  I read
  
  In Dutch, aes is contracted to as, but both forms are accepted in
  LilyPond. Similarly, both es and ees are accepted. This also applies
  to aeses / ases and eeses / eses. Sometimes only these contracted
  names are defined in the corresponding language files.
 
 Yes.  In case anybody was wondering, I deliberately moved the as
 and es contractions from the tutorial into the NR ages ago.  For
 people unfamiliar with that notation, it's easier to remember
 letter name plus -es or -is rather than introducing all the
 contractions.

That was a good idea I think. What is unfortunate is that the default
includes these contractions, with hindsight it might have been better to
have the default be the simplest set of names with those that wanted to
use the contractions including a language specific file (e.g.
nederlands). But this is a very minor thing, perhaps as a matter of
style the ly directory code should avoid the contractions?
This has a connection with the other thread about using the sharp and
flat symbols - they should be in a language neutral file.

Richard


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Re: es means ees???

[David Kastrup]

Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes:

 On Tue, 2014-10-07 at 11:04 +0900, Graham Percival wrote:
 On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 01:41:30PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
  Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes:
  
   Here, instead of ees, is written es.
  
  I read
  
  In Dutch, aes is contracted to as, but both forms are accepted in
  LilyPond. Similarly, both es and ees are accepted. This also applies
  to aeses / ases and eeses / eses. Sometimes only these contracted
  names are defined in the corresponding language files.
 
 Yes.  In case anybody was wondering, I deliberately moved the as
 and es contractions from the tutorial into the NR ages ago.  For
 people unfamiliar with that notation, it's easier to remember
 letter name plus -es or -is rather than introducing all the
 contractions.

 That was a good idea I think. What is unfortunate is that the default
 includes these contractions,

Uh, the contractions are the _proper_ names.  The non-contractions are
not correct note names in any language.

 with hindsight it might have been better to have the default be the
 simplest set of names with those that wanted to use the contractions
 including a language specific file (e.g.  nederlands).

I disagree.  There is nothing to be gained from using a notename
language nobody uses.  If we wanted that, we could take numbers.  I see
ees and aes more as a concession to computer-transliterated music than
to humans.  Now of course your main concern via Denemo _is_
computer-transliterated music but that does not mean that everybody
else's music should look that way.

 But this is a very minor thing, perhaps as a matter of style the ly
 directory code should avoid the contractions?

I'd consider that bad style.  Again, the contractions are not sloppy
writing or anything.  They are the _proper_ German and Dutch note names.
That's like stating for some hypothetical computer language we should
not have

   Variable x is y, was z
   Variable x has grue, had worm

but rather

   Variable x is y, ised z
   Variable x has grue, hased worm

because it is more regular and easier to get for non-English speakers.

-- 
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Re: es means ees???

[Richard Shann]

On Tue, 2014-10-07 at 09:50 +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes:
 
  On Tue, 2014-10-07 at 11:04 +0900, Graham Percival wrote:
  On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 01:41:30PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
   Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes:
   
Here, instead of ees, is written es.
   
   I read
   
   In Dutch, aes is contracted to as, but both forms are accepted in
   LilyPond. Similarly, both es and ees are accepted. This also applies
   to aeses / ases and eeses / eses. Sometimes only these contracted
   names are defined in the corresponding language files.
  
  Yes.  In case anybody was wondering, I deliberately moved the as
  and es contractions from the tutorial into the NR ages ago.  For
  people unfamiliar with that notation, it's easier to remember
  letter name plus -es or -is rather than introducing all the
  contractions.
 
  That was a good idea I think. What is unfortunate is that the default
  includes these contractions,
 
 Uh, the contractions are the _proper_ names.  The non-contractions are
 not correct note names in any language.

No more than ef is the correct note name in English for e-flat.


 
  with hindsight it might have been better to have the default be the
  simplest set of names with those that wanted to use the contractions
  including a language specific file (e.g.  nederlands).
 
 I disagree.  There is nothing to be gained from using a notename
 language nobody uses.

yes, we do it for English to save typing.

   If we wanted that, we could take numbers.  I see
 ees and aes more as a concession to computer-transliterated music than
 to humans.

that is a very reasonable way to look at it.

   Now of course your main concern via Denemo _is_
 computer-transliterated music but that does not mean that everybody
 else's music should look that way.
 
  But this is a very minor thing, perhaps as a matter of style the ly
  directory code should avoid the contractions?
 
 I'd consider that bad style.  Again, the contractions are not sloppy
 writing or anything.  They are the _proper_ German and Dutch note names.

yes, from that perspective. Well it is 10 years too late, but perhaps
the sharp and flat signs would have been better, with things like s
f is es all available via an included language file. Most
everything else is either Italian or English. But that's life in
language development.

Richard


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Re: es means ees???

[Richard Shann]

On Tue, 2014-10-07 at 09:50 +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes:
 
  On Tue, 2014-10-07 at 11:04 +0900, Graham Percival wrote:
  On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 01:41:30PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
   Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes:
   
Here, instead of ees, is written es.
   
   I read
   
   In Dutch, aes is contracted to as, but both forms are accepted in
   LilyPond. Similarly, both es and ees are accepted. This also applies
   to aeses / ases and eeses / eses. Sometimes only these contracted
   names are defined in the corresponding language files.
  
  Yes.  In case anybody was wondering, I deliberately moved the as
  and es contractions from the tutorial into the NR ages ago.  For
  people unfamiliar with that notation, it's easier to remember
  letter name plus -es or -is rather than introducing all the
  contractions.
 
  That was a good idea I think. What is unfortunate is that the default
[...]
 
  But this is a very minor thing, perhaps as a matter of style the ly
  directory code should avoid the contractions?
 
 I'd consider that bad style.

Thinking about it, this bad style is the one recommended by the
LilyPond documentation, since the changes Graham introduced into the NR
ages ago. It lead to me being unable to read a LilyPond file without
consulting the note-names-in-other-languages section, which you don't
expect to need to do when this isn't an other language.

Richard






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Re: es means ees???

[David Kastrup]

Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes:

 On Tue, 2014-10-07 at 09:50 +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes:
 
  On Tue, 2014-10-07 at 11:04 +0900, Graham Percival wrote:
  On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 01:41:30PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
   Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes:
   
Here, instead of ees, is written es.
   
   I read
   
   In Dutch, aes is contracted to as, but both forms are accepted in
   LilyPond. Similarly, both es and ees are accepted. This also applies
   to aeses / ases and eeses / eses. Sometimes only these contracted
   names are defined in the corresponding language files.
  
  Yes.  In case anybody was wondering, I deliberately moved the as
  and es contractions from the tutorial into the NR ages ago.  For
  people unfamiliar with that notation, it's easier to remember
  letter name plus -es or -is rather than introducing all the
  contractions.
 
  That was a good idea I think. What is unfortunate is that the default
  includes these contractions,
 
 Uh, the contractions are the _proper_ names.  The non-contractions are
 not correct note names in any language.

 No more than ef is the correct note name in English for e-flat.

English has no actually computer-language suitable correct note names.
The closest would indeed be e-flat, but as an identifier that has been
become valid only recently, and indeed I am tempted to change the full
English notenames to that since they are primarily used for things like

\key aflat \major

The next best thing would be a♭ for both proper and frequent entry but
that's hard to type on many keyboards.  Let alone a턫or similar.
However, it would be conceivable to let a note-language aware editor use
that as visualization.

  with hindsight it might have been better to have the default be the
  simplest set of names with those that wanted to use the contractions
  including a language specific file (e.g.  nederlands).
 
 I disagree.  There is nothing to be gained from using a notename
 language nobody uses.

 yes, we do it for English to save typing.

Using artificially longer regular notenames does not particularly save
typing, so that does not seem to favor aes.

 I'd consider that bad style.  Again, the contractions are not
 sloppy writing or anything.  They are the _proper_ German and Dutch
 note names.

 yes, from that perspective. Well it is 10 years too late,

You underestimate LilyPond's history.  At any rate, we should be more
concerned with the next 30 years than with the past 10, and convert-ly
can pitch in quite a bit (though most notenames are short and non-unique
enough to be really bad for automatic conversions).

I just don't see a case here.

 but perhaps the sharp and flat signs would have been better, with
 things like s f is es all available via an included language
 file.

Again, you are looking at this with the perspective of an automated
writer rather than a human one.  If that was the focus of LilyPond, we
would talk to it in MusicXML.

 Most everything else is either Italian or English.

Pretty much exclusively English unless it is a direct musical term
you'd also use when talking about music in English.

The notenames are the main exception because English notenames suck.
It's a wonder black keys survived in Britain since it is so inconvenient
to talk about them.  On the other hand, it would probably have been
imprudent using something like -is -es as distinguishing feature in a
language that might as well be written in the Hebrew alphabet for all
the care it exerts over the accuracy of its vowels.

 But that's life in language development.

LilyPond changed a lot over time.  I just don't see a point to change
anything _here_.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: es means ees???

[Richard Shann]

   If that was the focus of LilyPond, we
 would talk to it in MusicXML.
Hmm, I think there is a serious need to puncture the MusicXML bubble -
it is an appalling hotchpotch quite unsuited to representing typeset
music. From a casual look it seems to have been designed, but in fact
the real definition is the output of a proprietary program.
But, I do take your point, that LilyPond is intended to be written and
read by humans. It is designing for both the write and the read to be
easy that is tricky.

Richard




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Re: es means ees???

[David Kastrup]

Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes:

 On Tue, 2014-10-07 at 09:50 +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes:
 
  On Tue, 2014-10-07 at 11:04 +0900, Graham Percival wrote:
  On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 01:41:30PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
   Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes:
   
Here, instead of ees, is written es.
   
   I read
   
   In Dutch, aes is contracted to as, but both forms are accepted in
   LilyPond. Similarly, both es and ees are accepted. This also applies
   to aeses / ases and eeses / eses. Sometimes only these contracted
   names are defined in the corresponding language files.
  
  Yes.  In case anybody was wondering, I deliberately moved the as
  and es contractions from the tutorial into the NR ages ago.  For
  people unfamiliar with that notation, it's easier to remember
  letter name plus -es or -is rather than introducing all the
  contractions.
 
  That was a good idea I think. What is unfortunate is that the default
 [...]
 
  But this is a very minor thing, perhaps as a matter of style the ly
  directory code should avoid the contractions?
 
 I'd consider that bad style.

 Thinking about it, this bad style is the one recommended by the
 LilyPond documentation, since the changes Graham introduced into the NR
 ages ago. It lead to me being unable to read a LilyPond file without
 consulting the note-names-in-other-languages section, which you don't
 expect to need to do when this isn't an other language.

Then we should rectify this.  I don't think that would need more than a
single sentence.  I think it is a bad idea when one LilyPond user cannot
read a simple melody pinned down by another user without getting
confused.  LilyPond is not a write-only language but also a means of
communicating and cooperating.  For better or worse, the default
notename language is Dutch and so people should know what to expect when
exchanging music with musicians working with Dutch note names.

I think that \language english comes closest to the idea of
artificial but convenient language because of the inherently bad
natural English note names that nobody wants to use when writing down
melodies.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: es means ees???

[David Kastrup]

Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes:

   If that was the focus of LilyPond, we
 would talk to it in MusicXML.
 Hmm, I think there is a serious need to puncture the MusicXML bubble -
 it is an appalling hotchpotch quite unsuited to representing typeset
 music. From a casual look it seems to have been designed, but in fact
 the real definition is the output of a proprietary program.
 But, I do take your point, that LilyPond is intended to be written and
 read by humans. It is designing for both the write and the read to be
 easy that is tricky.

The LilyPond language is focused on humans.  That might seem a bit hard
to swallow for people not used talking to computers.  But it makes
LilyPond tricky to import rather than interpret.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: es means ees???

[Hans Aberg]

 On 7 Oct 2014, at 09:33, Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com wrote:
 
 On Tue, 2014-10-07 at 11:04 +0900, Graham Percival wrote:
 On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 01:41:30PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes:
 
 Here, instead of ees, is written es.
 
 I read
 
In Dutch, aes is contracted to as, but both forms are accepted in
LilyPond. Similarly, both es and ees are accepted. This also applies
to aeses / ases and eeses / eses. Sometimes only these contracted
names are defined in the corresponding language files.
 
 Yes.  In case anybody was wondering, I deliberately moved the as
 and es contractions from the tutorial into the NR ages ago.  For
 people unfamiliar with that notation, it's easier to remember
 letter name plus -es or -is rather than introducing all the
 contractions.
 
 That was a good idea I think. What is unfortunate is that the default
 includes these contractions, with hindsight it might have been better to
 have the default be the simplest set of names with those that wanted to
 use the contractions including a language specific file (e.g.
 nederlands).

The convention is same in Swedish, that is, “gess” and “ess”, so it is natural 
to use the default “ges” and “es.

 But this is a very minor thing, perhaps as a matter of
 style the ly directory code should avoid the contractions?

However, I found it convenient to switch to the English conventions, so I have 
mixture.

 This has a connection with the other thread about using the sharp and
 flat symbols - they should be in a language neutral file.

Another topic is to add postfix operators. Right now, each note, with 
accidental or not, must be given a new LilyPond name. With operators, that is 
not necessary. Especially when adding microtonal accidentals, the combinations 
multiply so heavily it is no longer practical to write them out as note names.



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es means ees???

[Richard Shann]

In the lilypond 2.19 installed file

usr/share/lilypond/current/ly/chord-modifiers-init.ly

I see the following at line 27

  c es ges-\markup { \super o } % should be $\circ$ ?


Here, instead of ees, is written es.

I've tried this out, and it appears to be a synonym, but I don't see
this documented. Anyone know what's going on?

Richard
 



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Re: es means ees???

[David Kastrup]

Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes:

 In the lilypond 2.19 installed file

 usr/share/lilypond/current/ly/chord-modifiers-init.ly

 I see the following at line 27

   c es ges-\markup { \super o } % should be $\circ$ ?


 Here, instead of ees, is written es.

 I've tried this out, and it appears to be a synonym, but I don't see
 this documented. Anyone know what's going on?

That's the natural name for it, cf
URL:http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/music-glossary/pitch-names.
I don't know where you have looked for the information, but in the
canonical point of documentation (or, depending on how you view it,
immediately adjacent and cross-referenced from it), namely
URL:http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/writing-pitches#note-names-in-other-languages,

I read

In Dutch, aes is contracted to as, but both forms are accepted in
LilyPond. Similarly, both es and ees are accepted. This also applies
to aeses / ases and eeses / eses. Sometimes only these contracted
names are defined in the corresponding language files.

The sometimes sentence is somewhat hand-waving and it is not clear to
what it applies.  Dutch as the default note entry mode also intended for
foreigners and automatic notename generation, is more lenient in its
forms.  German, IIRC, only accepts the correct contracted forms.

-- 
David Kastrup

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Re: es means ees???

[bobr...@centrum.is]

- Original Message -
From: Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com
To: lilypond-devel@gnu.org
Sent: Monday, October 6, 2014 11:12:55 AM
Subject: es means ees???

In the lilypond 2.19 installed file

usr/share/lilypond/current/ly/chord-modifiers-init.ly

I see the following at line 27

  c es ges-\markup { \super o } % should be $\circ$ ?


Here, instead of ees, is written es.

I've tried this out, and it appears to be a synonym, but I don't see
this documented. Anyone know what's going on?

Richard
 

*

I'm not sure about actually being documented but I do recall seeing this 
written somewhere.  Your surmise is correct; 'ees' and 'es' *are* synonyms.  I 
think the logic runs like this; d = d and d + es = des (d-flat) so e + es = ees 
= e-flat as 'es' by itself actually indicates a flat sign.  I think that 'es' 
is the normal usage, however, and it is a bit shorter.  I've always just used 
'es' and later learned that 'ees' was a synonym.  I think that 'as' and 'aes' 
may also be synonyms as well.

-David

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Re: es means ees???

[Abraham Lee]

Richard,

AFAIK, it's not documented, but you can find all available note names in the 
file scm/define-note-names.scm, in which you'll find that both es and ees work 
for writing e-flat. 

Regards,
Abraham

Sent from my iPhone

 On Oct 6, 2014, at 5:12 AM, Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com wrote:
 
 In the lilypond 2.19 installed file
 
 usr/share/lilypond/current/ly/chord-modifiers-init.ly
 
 I see the following at line 27
 
  c es ges-\markup { \super o } % should be $\circ$ ?
 
 
 Here, instead of ees, is written es.
 
 I've tried this out, and it appears to be a synonym, but I don't see
 this documented. Anyone know what's going on?
 
 Richard
 
 
 
 
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Re: es means ees???

[Richard Shann]

Thank you to all who replied - I didn't think to look in the note names
in other languages section.
Richard

On Mon, 2014-10-06 at 13:41 +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes:
 
  In the lilypond 2.19 installed file
 
  usr/share/lilypond/current/ly/chord-modifiers-init.ly
 
  I see the following at line 27
 
c es ges-\markup { \super o } % should be $\circ$ ?
 
 
  Here, instead of ees, is written es.
 
  I've tried this out, and it appears to be a synonym, but I don't see
  this documented. Anyone know what's going on?
 
 That's the natural name for it, cf
 URL:http://www.lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/music-glossary/pitch-names.
 I don't know where you have looked for the information, but in the
 canonical point of documentation (or, depending on how you view it,
 immediately adjacent and cross-referenced from it), namely
 URL:http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/notation/writing-pitches#note-names-in-other-languages,
 
 I read
 
 In Dutch, aes is contracted to as, but both forms are accepted in
 LilyPond. Similarly, both es and ees are accepted. This also applies
 to aeses / ases and eeses / eses. Sometimes only these contracted
 names are defined in the corresponding language files.
 
 The sometimes sentence is somewhat hand-waving and it is not clear to
 what it applies.  Dutch as the default note entry mode also intended for
 foreigners and automatic notename generation, is more lenient in its
 forms.  German, IIRC, only accepts the correct contracted forms.
 



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Re: es means ees???

[Graham Percival]

On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 01:41:30PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 Richard Shann rich...@rshann.plus.com writes:
 
  Here, instead of ees, is written es.
 
 I read
 
 In Dutch, aes is contracted to as, but both forms are accepted in
 LilyPond. Similarly, both es and ees are accepted. This also applies
 to aeses / ases and eeses / eses. Sometimes only these contracted
 names are defined in the corresponding language files.

Yes.  In case anybody was wondering, I deliberately moved the as
and es contractions from the tutorial into the NR ages ago.  For
people unfamiliar with that notation, it's easier to remember
letter name plus -es or -is rather than introducing all the
contractions.

Cheers,
- Graham

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