Re: texi2html web page, second attempt
Le 13/06/2009 20:14, Graham Percival a écrit : To counter-act the texi2html looks boring idea, here's a new version: http://percival-music.ca/blogfiles/out/lilypond-general_1.html You made the proof of concept of using texi2html to write a website in Texinfo; this is nice and promising, I'm now almost convinced that we could adopt this technical design. However, I'm sure I want to update the translation infrastructure first, as it will be reused in the website if we adopt this design: remember that it's about translating node names and section titles directly in the translated files, so it would well take between 10 and 15 hours to hack the scripts and apply and check the changes to existing translations. 2) Apologies to people who worked on the perl texinfo init file for the docs. I hacked it up horribly to get this version. You could thank them too :-D - also, if we end up going this route, somebody (I'm willing to do it, although I wouldn't mind delegating this :) needs to make the nagivation menu show the current subsections in a second list. (like the current webpage) This is possible, but I don't know how much Perl hacking it requires. It would be nice to generate the (sub)TOC as a drop-down menu activated by mouse hover/click BTW. - we also probably want to remove the h1section-name/h1 from the page. Not a big deal. ... or using the node names for links (cross-references) and menus, and reuse current web site h1 title as the section name in Texinfo sources so we still have the same h1 on the final HTML page. 3) Ok, so why do I want to use texinfo so much? - makes pdfs+info. I personally *never* use those formats, but I know that some people still use them. IMO, if we're going to support those formats for the manuals, we should support them for the information that's on the website. I'm not so enthusiast for a single huge PDF that contains so much heterogenous kinds of information. Anyway, that's not a big deal, as it's possible to have several master Texinfo files, with each being used to produce one PDF document. Of course, HTML output has a much higher priority. - we all know texinfo. It's easy to fix small mistakes in it. If we go this route, I can have the content of the new website done by the end of this weekend. Then we just need to adjust the style (tweak the init file, write a CSS, maybe make new images, etc). Oh, and adjusting the translation stuff[*]. If I may add an advantage of Texinfo over HTML, it is more concise and faster to type. Happy Texinfo/Perl/HTML hacking, John ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: texi2html web page, second attempt
On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 01:54:30PM +0200, John Mandereau wrote: Le 13/06/2009 20:14, Graham Percival a écrit : - also, if we end up going this route, somebody (I'm willing to do it, although I wouldn't mind delegating this :) needs to make the nagivation menu show the current subsections in a second list. (like the current webpage) This is possible, but I don't know how much Perl hacking it requires. It would be nice to generate the (sub)TOC as a drop-down menu activated by mouse hover/click BTW. I agree. For this to happen, we would need to have *one* unordered list instead of two separate lists. I'm referring to the one in div#tocframe. They would look like this: * unnumbered * unnumberedsec * unnumberedsec * unnumberedsubsec * unnumbered * unnumbered * unnumbered I could create drop-down menus with this structure (with pure CSS), but I don't know how much modification the init file would need. Thanks, Patrick ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: texi2html web page, second attempt
On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 09:57:20AM -0700, Patrick McCarty wrote:
On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 01:54:30PM +0200, John Mandereau wrote:
Le 13/06/2009 20:14, Graham Percival a écrit :
- also, if we end up going this route, somebody (I'm willing to do
it, although I wouldn't mind delegating this :) needs to make
the nagivation menu show the current subsections in a second
list. (like the current webpage)
This is possible, but I don't know how much Perl hacking it requires. It
would be nice to generate the (sub)TOC as a drop-down menu activated by
mouse hover/click BTW.
I agree.
Really? I prefer the current webpage's display, since you can see
all the sub-sections of each section. (or all the sections of
each chapter)
I mean, if somebody is reading Introduction-Features, I think
it'd be nice to see Introduction-Examples and Introduction-Crash
course, without having to hover the mouse around.
For this to happen, we would need to have *one* unordered list instead
of two separate lists. I'm referring to the one in div#tocframe.
They would look like this:
* unnumbered
* unnumberedsec
* unnumberedsec
* unnumberedsubsec
* unnumbered
* unnumbered
* unnumbered
I could create drop-down menus with this structure (with pure CSS),
but I don't know how much modification the init file would need.
That was actually the default for the init file -- it took me
about an hour to figure out how to hack-comment-out lines so it
wouldn't do this! :)
I could change it back for an experiment, though. If I see it in
action, I might like it better... or I may be outvoted :)
In any case, it would be easy to compare between the
current-webpage version and the drop-down version.
... ok, experiment pushed to web-gop. Go ahead and do your magic
to web-gop/texinfo/css/ anytime. :)
... nope, can't do. Whenever I try to commit it, I get:
gperc...@nagi:~/svn/web-gop$ git commit texinfo/web-texi2html.init
error: invalid object d92e8d14ac7c92171da2feb403f85eee6cade51a
error: Error building trees
Mao. I'll delete the whole dir and download everything from the
main repo again, then add the file. In the meantime, I've
attached the diff; you can apply it to your local copy and go from
there.
Cheers,
- Graham
--- /home/gperciva/svn/web-gop/texinfo/web-texi2html.init 2009-06-20 13:20:49.0 -0700
+++ web-texi2html.init 2009-06-20 13:16:57.0 -0700
@@ -619,11 +619,11 @@
}
# if no child nodes were generated, e.g. for the index, where expanded pages
# are ignored, don't generate a list at all...
-#if (@child_result) {
-# push (@result, \n$indul$NO_BULLET_LIST_ATTRIBUTE\n);
-# push (@result, @child_result);
-# push (@result, $ind/ul\n);
-#}
+if (@child_result) {
+ push (@result, \n$indul$NO_BULLET_LIST_ATTRIBUTE\n);
+ push (@result, @child_result);
+ push (@result, $ind/ul\n);
+}
}
push (@result, $ind/li\n);
return @result;
@@ -649,8 +649,8 @@
return () if not defined($current_element);
# Create the toc entries recursively
#FIXME
-my @toc_entries = (ul$NO_BULLET_LIST_ATTRIBUTE\n);
-#my @toc_entries = (div class=\contents\\n, ul$NO_BULLET_LIST_ATTRIBUTE\n);
+#my @toc_entries = (ul$NO_BULLET_LIST_ATTRIBUTE\n);
+my @toc_entries = (div class=\contents\\n, ul$NO_BULLET_LIST_ATTRIBUTE\n);
my $children = $current_element-{'section_childs'};
# FIXME: generate toc
foreach ( @$children ) {
@@ -658,8 +658,8 @@
}
push (@toc_entries, /ul\n);
#FIXME
-#push (@toc_entries, /div\n);
-push (@toc_entries, \n);
+push (@toc_entries, /div\n);
+#push (@toc_entries, \n);
return @toc_entries;
}
@@ -702,34 +702,16 @@
# ) . /h4\n;
-## FIXME: make this generate from the file properly
-#my $foo = table width=100%tr
-#tdHome/td
-#td[Introduction]/td
-#tdDownload/td
-#tdDocumentation/td
-##tdDevelopment/td
-#tdAbout/td
-#/tr/table
-#
-#table width=100%tr
-#tdFeatures/td
-#tdExamples/td
-#td[Crash Course]/td
-#/tr/table
-#;
-# print $fh $foo;
-
foreach my $line (@lines) {
print $fh $line;
}
# FIXME: do second layer
-print $fh br\n;
-print $fh ul class=\toc\\n;
-print $fh liFIXME Insert second-layer TOC frame here/li\n;
-print $fh /ul\n;
-print $fh /div;
+#print $fh br\n;
+#print $fh ul class=\toc\\n;
+#print $fh liFIXME Insert second-layer TOC frame here/li\n;
+#print $fh /ul\n;
+#print $fh /div;
print $fh /div\n\n;
}
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Re: texi2html web page, second attempt
On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Graham Percivalgra...@percival-music.ca wrote: On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 09:57:20AM -0700, Patrick McCarty wrote: On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 01:54:30PM +0200, John Mandereau wrote: Le 13/06/2009 20:14, Graham Percival a écrit : - also, if we end up going this route, somebody (I'm willing to do it, although I wouldn't mind delegating this :) needs to make the nagivation menu show the current subsections in a second list. (like the current webpage) This is possible, but I don't know how much Perl hacking it requires. It would be nice to generate the (sub)TOC as a drop-down menu activated by mouse hover/click BTW. I agree. Really? I prefer the current webpage's display, since you can see all the sub-sections of each section. (or all the sections of each chapter) I mean, if somebody is reading Introduction-Features, I think it'd be nice to see Introduction-Examples and Introduction-Crash course, without having to hover the mouse around. Well, I was mainly interested in it because I know how to do drop-down menus. But on second thought, the method does not work on IE (=6), so this will be more trouble than it's worth. For this to happen, we would need to have *one* unordered list instead of two separate lists. I'm referring to the one in div#tocframe. They would look like this: * unnumbered * unnumberedsec * unnumberedsec * unnumberedsubsec * unnumbered * unnumbered * unnumbered I could create drop-down menus with this structure (with pure CSS), but I don't know how much modification the init file would need. That was actually the default for the init file -- it took me about an hour to figure out how to hack-comment-out lines so it wouldn't do this! :) Okay, thanks for the patch. I started from scratch on the CSS. There might be some things I forgot, but see what you think. If this is an improvement (for now), I can send a patch. It should render decently. Not sure if the submenus will work in IE=6, but you probably don't use those browsers. :-) http://uoregon.edu/~pmccarty/web-lily/lilypond-general_1.html -Patrick ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: texi2html web page, second attempt
On 6/20/09 2:21 PM, Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca wrote: On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 09:57:20AM -0700, Patrick McCarty wrote: On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 01:54:30PM +0200, John Mandereau wrote: Le 13/06/2009 20:14, Graham Percival a écrit : - also, if we end up going this route, somebody (I'm willing to do it, although I wouldn't mind delegating this :) needs to make the nagivation menu show the current subsections in a second list. (like the current webpage) This is possible, but I don't know how much Perl hacking it requires. It would be nice to generate the (sub)TOC as a drop-down menu activated by mouse hover/click BTW. I agree. Really? I prefer the current webpage's display, since you can see all the sub-sections of each section. (or all the sections of each chapter) I mean, if somebody is reading Introduction-Features, I think it'd be nice to see Introduction-Examples and Introduction-Crash course, without having to hover the mouse around. Me, too. I much prefer having the TOC available to having it hidden. Carl ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: texi2html web page, second attempt
On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 03:59:59PM -0700, Patrick McCarty wrote: On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Graham Percivalgra...@percival-music.ca wrote: That was actually the default for the init file -- it took me about an hour to figure out how to hack-comment-out lines so it wouldn't do this! :) I started from scratch on the CSS. There might be some things I forgot, but see what you think. If this is an improvement (for now), I can send a patch. It should render decently. Not sure if the submenus will work in IE=6, but you probably don't use those browsers. :-) http://uoregon.edu/~pmccarty/web-lily/lilypond-general_1.html Looks great! I copied the CSS verbatim and dumped it into git; if you have access you can push further changes directly. If not, I'm more than happy to commit them for you. Ok, I'm thinking about announcing this on -user on Monday or Tuesday. There's a bit more I want to write for the content, and if you want to make any more CSS changes, that's fine. The idea is just to get initial feedback and any major feature requests, so it doesn't need to be perfect by any stretch of the imagination. :) Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: texi2html web page, second attempt
On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 12:00:21PM -0700, Patrick McCarty wrote: On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 11:14 AM, Graham Percivalgra...@percival-music.ca wrote: To counter-act the texi2html looks boring idea, here's a new version: http://percival-music.ca/blogfiles/out/lilypond-general_1.html Cool! I think this is a definite improvement to the website's organization. I really wish we could port everything to XHTML, since it makes designing a little easier, but I guess we will have to use HTML 4.0 Transitional. Well, we _could_ make it XHTML by hacking texi2html... but I think the current HTML version is fine. I'll just note in passing that this one more advantage to using texinfo as an intermediate language: we can export it to whatever backend(s) we want, assuming we're willing to write those backend(s). :) I would be willing to work on the CSS when everything is ready. There are some major annoyances that texi2html has (like using table class=menu ... instead of something more reasonable like div class=menu), but these issues can be worked around. That's (relatively) easily changed (actually I changed it already for the TOC in the init file). If there's any particular annoyances, let me know and I'll look through the init file and/or the texi2html source. - we also probably want to remove the h1section-name/h1 from the page. Not a big deal. Or we could just hide it. I'm already hiding The music typesetter on this page, because I could not think of a good place to put it: Up to you, as the graphics designer. :) Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: texi2html web page, second attempt
On Sat, Jun 20, 2009 at 01:54:30PM +0200, John Mandereau wrote: Le 13/06/2009 20:14, Graham Percival a écrit : To counter-act the texi2html looks boring idea, here's a new version: http://percival-music.ca/blogfiles/out/lilypond-general_1.html You made the proof of concept of using texi2html to write a website in Texinfo; this is nice and promising, I'm now almost convinced that we could adopt this technical design. However, I'm sure I want to update the translation infrastructure first, as it will be reused in the website if we adopt this design: remember that it's about translating node names and section titles directly in the translated files, so it would well take between 10 and 15 hours to hack the scripts and apply and check the changes to existing translations. Ok; I have no problems waiting for this. Remember I was talking about having the English version done this month, and translations around Aug. There should be a lot of shared infrastructure between the new website and the main docs... actually, since they're all texinfo, I'm not certain if there'd be *any* difference. 2) Apologies to people who worked on the perl texinfo init file for the docs. I hacked it up horribly to get this version. You could thank them too :-D I think I thanked them when they did the original version during GDP. And we wouldn't want to double-thank people, after all! Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: texi2html web page, second attempt
In message 4a33fbd3.2040...@gmail.com, Jonathan Kulp jonlancek...@gmail.com writes Graham Percival wrote: 3) Ok, so why do I want to use texinfo so much? - makes pdfs+info. I personally *never* use those formats, but I know that some people still use them. IMO, if we're going to support those formats for the manuals, we should support them for the information that's on the website. For what it's worth, I almost always go to the pdf manual first when I need to find something. Ditto. In fact, I actively *dislike* html help - I can never find what I'm looking for because a search never finds it, and I can't just scan the document from top to bottom. (At least, I can, if like lily you provide an all in one page option, but in that case I might as well have the pdf, anyways :-) Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - anth...@thewolery.demon.co.uk ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: texi2html web page, second attempt
Jonathan Kulp wrote: Graham Percival wrote: 3) Ok, so why do I want to use texinfo so much? - makes pdfs+info. I personally *never* use those formats, but I know that some people still use them. IMO, if we're going to support those formats for the manuals, we should support them for the information that's on the website. For what it's worth, I almost always go to the pdf manual first when I need to find something. Just for balance I always go to the HTML manual. Paul Scott ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: texi2html web page, second attempt
Hi all, 3) Ok, so why do I want to use texinfo so much? - makes pdfs+info. I personally *never* use those formats, but I know that some people still use them. IMO, if we're going to support those formats for the manuals, we should support them for the information that's on the website. For what it's worth, I almost always go to the pdf manual first when I need to find something. Just for balance I always go to the HTML manual. 1. Since I'm offline more than 50% of the time I'm engraving, I use the PDF manual. 2. I prefer the PDF interface, especially for searching. [And, yes, I know how to Google the docs.] Perhaps when the AJAX searching features are built-in to the HTML docs, this difference will be eliminated? Just my 2¢. Kieren. ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: texi2html web page, second attempt
And for completeness, I'm the guy who uses info! -- Cameron Horsburgh Blog: http://spiritcry.wordpress.com/ ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
texi2html web page, second attempt
To counter-act the texi2html looks boring idea, here's a new version: http://percival-music.ca/blogfiles/out/lilypond-general_1.html 1) *NO*, I don't think the garish colours and backgrounds look good. I'm showing that we can do whatever we want, not proposing that red-text-on-black-image is easy to read! I'm probably the worst graphics designer on this list, so I'm not even going to *pretend* to be a graphics designer. If we end up going this route, then OF COURSE we'll ask those people to produce a beautiful css file. 2) Apologies to people who worked on the perl texinfo init file for the docs. I hacked it up horribly to get this version. - also, if we end up going this route, somebody (I'm willing to do it, although I wouldn't mind delegating this :) needs to make the nagivation menu show the current subsections in a second list. (like the current webpage) - we also probably want to remove the h1section-name/h1 from the page. Not a big deal. 3) Ok, so why do I want to use texinfo so much? - makes pdfs+info. I personally *never* use those formats, but I know that some people still use them. IMO, if we're going to support those formats for the manuals, we should support them for the information that's on the website. - we all know texinfo. It's easy to fix small mistakes in it. If we go this route, I can have the content of the new website done by the end of this weekend. Then we just need to adjust the style (tweak the init file, write a CSS, maybe make new images, etc). Oh, and adjusting the translation stuff[*]. Yes, I know that texinfo is confusing for beginners -- by we all know, I mean all the major lilypond contributors. In other words, all the people who might be fixing typos and incorrect content on the website. [*] For this reason -- and this reason only -- I don't think we should aim to have the new website ready by 2.14. Tentative plan is to release 2.14 in early July, then work on the translation infrastructure for the texinfo website, then release the new website in early Aug. - texinfo enforces the content vs. presentation thing. All our webpages will have a consistent look; it's not *possible* to do weird hacks in texinfo to create odd stuff for individual pages. (at least, not without modifying the global css file as well) - I think it would be cool. Everybody knows that texinfo is boring and bland; I think it would be really neat to have a fancy website created from texinfo. It could also serve as a great example for other projects as to the possibilities of texi2html. I think we all agree that it's been great for our manuals, after all! Cheers, - Graham ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: texi2html web page, second attempt
2009/6/13 Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca: To counter-act the texi2html looks boring idea, here's a new version: http://percival-music.ca/blogfiles/out/lilypond-general_1.html You haven't asked for comments but here they are anyway: -- The garish colours and backgrounds look bad. -- Red-text-on-black-image is very difficult to read. -- Please don't pretend to be a graphics designer. You'd better ask designers to produce a decent css file. That said, looks promising, go ahead. -- Francisco Vila. Badajoz (Spain) www.paconet.org ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: texi2html web page, second attempt
On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 11:14 AM, Graham Percivalgra...@percival-music.ca wrote: To counter-act the texi2html looks boring idea, here's a new version: http://percival-music.ca/blogfiles/out/lilypond-general_1.html Cool! I think this is a definite improvement to the website's organization. I really wish we could port everything to XHTML, since it makes designing a little easier, but I guess we will have to use HTML 4.0 Transitional. 1) *NO*, I don't think the garish colours and backgrounds look good. I'm showing that we can do whatever we want, not proposing that red-text-on-black-image is easy to read! I'm probably the worst graphics designer on this list, so I'm not even going to *pretend* to be a graphics designer. If we end up going this route, then OF COURSE we'll ask those people to produce a beautiful css file. I would be willing to work on the CSS when everything is ready. There are some major annoyances that texi2html has (like using table class=menu ... instead of something more reasonable like div class=menu), but these issues can be worked around. - we also probably want to remove the h1section-name/h1 from the page. Not a big deal. Or we could just hide it. I'm already hiding The music typesetter on this page, because I could not think of a good place to put it: http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.13/Documentation/user/lilypond/index - texinfo enforces the content vs. presentation thing. All our webpages will have a consistent look; it's not *possible* to do weird hacks in texinfo to create odd stuff for individual pages. (at least, not without modifying the global css file as well) If there is a way to change the class or id for tags on individual pages, then we could use the same global CSS file. - I think it would be cool. Everybody knows that texinfo is boring and bland; I think it would be really neat to have a fancy website created from texinfo. It could also serve as a great example for other projects as to the possibilities of texi2html. I think we all agree that it's been great for our manuals, after all! I agree. Thanks for working on this! -Patrick ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
Re: texi2html web page, second attempt
Graham Percival wrote: 3) Ok, so why do I want to use texinfo so much? - makes pdfs+info. I personally *never* use those formats, but I know that some people still use them. IMO, if we're going to support those formats for the manuals, we should support them for the information that's on the website. For what it's worth, I almost always go to the pdf manual first when I need to find something. - we all know texinfo. It's easy to fix small mistakes in it. If we go this route, I can have the content of the new website done by the end of this weekend. Then we just need to adjust the style (tweak the init file, write a CSS, maybe make new images, etc). Oh, and adjusting the translation stuff[*]. Yes, I know that texinfo is confusing for beginners -- by we all know, I mean all the major lilypond contributors. In other words, all the people who might be fixing typos and incorrect content on the website. I like this idea Graham, although I think I'd give you a run for your money in the worst designer on the list contest. :) As a small fix guy, it would definitely be easier for me to deal with texinfo files than with html. As weird as texinfo is, I find it much more human-readable than html source. I like the flexibility of its output, too. Jon -- Jonathan Kulp http://www.jonathankulp.com ___ lilypond-devel mailing list lilypond-devel@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-devel
