Re: http://lilypond.org/help-us.html afunctional

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Jul 05, 2018 at 08:49:12PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
> Graham Percival  writes:
> > I suspect that the issue is that we only want a string in the form
> > "2.19", and it was easier to create such a string by concatenating
> > MAJOR_VERSION and MINOR_VERSION, instead of taking VERSION_STABLE
> > of "2.19.65" and removing the final ".xy"
> 
> Hm.  I've done a change using VERSION_DEVEL locally but I am not sure
> whether there is one valid strategy for both development and stable
> releases.
> 
> I am not sure I understand the problem.

Sorry, I'm not certain if this is still an issue.  Here's the
problem as I recall it.

1) The regular MAJOR_VERSION / MINOR_VERSION / PATCH_LEVEL points
to the *next* lilypond release in git master.  This is so that if
a developer compiles the binary, there's a distinction between
  ./lilypond --version
and
  lilypond --version

(assuming that she has an officially released lilypond in her
$PATH).


2) Pages like
  http://lilypond.org/unix.html
  http://lilypond.org/development.html
are generated from
  Documentation/web/download.itexi
  Documentation/web/community.itexi
from git master.  These need to point to the latest *released*
versions, not the "n+1" version that one gets from compiling.

To see exactly how VERSION_STABLE and VERSION_DEVEL are used,
$ git grep versionStable -- Documentation/web
$ git grep versionDevel -- Documentation/web


Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: http://lilypond.org/help-us.html afunctional

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Jul 04, 2018 at 08:21:25PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
> "Phil Holmes"  writes:
> > I'm slightly surprised that the build picks up the location of those
> > pages from that part of the version, but obviously it does.  A simple
> > fix for the next build would be to align the versions given by the two
> > expressions, but could you have a think about why those pages pick up
> > different locations from all the others?
> 
> I am just as surprised as you are.  I would have thought that the
> VERSION_STABLE and VERSION_DEVEL lines are exactly used for figuring out
> the web sites to link to while MAJOR_VERSION/MINOR_VERSION/PATCH_LEVEL
> is what gets baked into the binary.

Commit 70adadcf60fa2571d3148115af5d7e96d80d57a5.

I suspect that the issue is that we only want a string in the form
"2.19", and it was easier to create such a string by concatenating
MAJOR_VERSION and MINOR_VERSION, instead of taking VERSION_STABLE
of "2.19.65" and removing the final ".xy"

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: translations in new LilyPond website [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[Graham Percival]

On Mon, Feb 20, 2017 at 12:23:06AM -0500, Paul wrote:
> What if we separated the design and implementation steps? First, come up
> with a design that just uses css and simple html (nothing fancy, no library
> dependencies, etc.), one that offers responsive design for smaller screens,
> etc.

That's more or less exactly the point behind [1]: work on the CSS
without fussing about the underlying HTML.  It resulted in one new
LilyPond contributor [2], who began cleaning up the CSS.

[1] https://github.com/gperciva/lilypond-web-css
[2] 
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/lilypond.git/commit/?id=ca2a46da10e1f627b68e7243958749b8ec007f43

Unfortunately, due to a combination of real-life problems and the
threat of throwing away the existing website, her interest in
working on this has dried up -- and I don't blame her in the
least!  I'm waiting for things to calm down, and then maybe I can
convince her to re-start.

There's also a technical tool which can help this process; I
mentioned that on the -devel list and hope to make it available
soon.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: translations in new LilyPond website [WAS: Re: New LilyPond website]

[Graham Percival]

On Mon, Feb 13, 2017 at 05:04:07PM +0100, Federico Bruni wrote:
> Il giorno gio 9 feb 2017 alle 0:11, John Roper  ha
> scritto:
> >Ok, you can see the most current version of my design on
> >http://jmroper.com/lilypond
> >
> >I am keeping the source for the website in
> >https://github.com/johnroper100/LilyPond-Web-Redesign
> 
> Before adding fancy stuff (such as embedded lilybin), I suggest that you
> provide a website that satisfies all the basic requirements. One of these -
> probably the most complex - is the translations. Do you have an idea already
> of how to manage it?

+1.  This, absolutely.  In addition to translations, I'd also like
to see an actual separation of content and templates.  In other
words, there should not be any files which contain website text
and html tags.


Also, I want to be clear so that there's no misunderstandings:
Doing the above does not mean that LilyPond will switch to a
different website generation method.  Doing the above only means
that we can begin to evaluate the technical merits of such a
change.

I would be very surprised if LilyPond ever switched to Blended --
that would be increasing our technical debt, not reducing it.  If
we switched from texinfo to a different static website generator,
I suspect it would be pelican, gitbook, or hugo -- existing
projects with thousands of users and a thriving developer
community.


I wish that I could sound less discouraging.  I think that there
are some interesting ideas in your latest webpage, and it would
not be hard to implement them within the current texinfo
framework.

- Graham

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

On Fri, Feb 03, 2017 at 05:31:20AM -0500, John Roper wrote:
> OK, I was asking because I have written a static command line HTML site 
> generator that builds from HTML, Markdown, reStruturedText, Textile, Plain 
> Text (.txt), and Microsoft Word (.docx).
> 
> http://jmroper.com/blended

I am not convinced that that changing our HTML generation is in
our best interest at this time.

Design is almost entirely a question of CSS.  I'd like to see some
serious effort at improving the CSS, since that it 99% of the
user-visible changes, and does not negatively impact the rest of
our code.  Again, I suggest that you look at:
https://github.com/gperciva/lilypond-web-css

If there is a need to style a particular element that currently
lacks an id= or class= name, I'd be quite happy to add that to our
existing texinfo and static site generation.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Feb 02, 2017 at 09:31:39PM -0500, John Roper wrote:
>Ok, so what are the major things you would like from a new web redesign
>(not including the docs)?
>I know of:
>Not reliant on JavaScript
>Can be translated
>Can be updated with each new build

There's a few non-negotiable points:
- no server-side processing, no "dynamic" website.  We're using
  a donated shared server.  Anything which increases our resource
  load or opens a security risk is a non-starter.
- can be created automatically from source.  (This is probably
  implied by your "can be updated with each new build" point, but
  better to be clear up-front.)

A few points which are highly encouraged, but which I suppose
could be negotated:
- should be relatively easy for newcomers to update.  Texinfo
  qualifies; I guess that HTML could qualify as long as there's
  a clear separation of content and styling.  Markdown would
  certainly satisfy this point, but I'm not confident that it can
  do everything we'd want.
- work within the existing system.  We have a lot of developers,
  and a lot of history.  There are certainly many ways that our
  processes can be improved, but we generally have reasons why
  things are the way they are.
- last December, I prepared a github repository specifically to
  address the case of somebody wanting to modify the website:
https://github.com/gperciva/lilypond-web-css
  One person started working on this, and her first change has
  already been accepted to the LilyPond git repository.
  Unfortunately her progress has stalled a bit due to my health
  and various deadlines on Feb 4, but I hope to pick things up
  next week.

I strongly recommend that you take a look at that repository and
follow the steps outlined there.  As Werner and Urs recommended,
start with one small change -- "evolution, not revolution".  See
what kind of reaction that gets, let it go through the development
process, then repeat.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: some mentoring available

[Graham Percival]

On Tue, Dec 27, 2016 at 05:37:44PM -0800, Flaming Hakama by Elaine wrote:
>I would enjoy learning the ropes to start to contribute more directly
>to the health and well-being of the Lilypond documentation.
>Is this mentoring offer still good?

Yes, absolutely!  Could you let me know (off-list) what your
technical background is, and what areas of the docs you are most
interested in working on?

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: Trying to Convert MIDI to Lilypond

[Graham Percival]

On Sun, Dec 25, 2016 at 09:58:39AM +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> This is the only file in the whole LilyPond distribution that needs a C
> compiler to compile.  It also makes for a whole lot of trouble.  What it
> does can likely be rewritten in Python without much of a performance
> impact for the application as a whole.

I completely entirely agree with the rewrite, but I'm curious
about why a C compiler causes problems, compared to the C++
compiler required for the main lilypond binary?

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: Small typo on LilyPond.org

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 11:54:33PM -, Phil Holmes wrote:
> If the documentation needed correcting, I'm in for a minimum 1.5
> hour build (sometimes 6 hours) and 5 hour upload (which also
> eats into my internet quota and stops my internet use at the
> time) to correct it.

Ouch, this might be misunderstood by some people.

- the website is AUTOMATICALLY regenerated HOURLY from our git
  repository.
- the website source is text.  In this case, the problem is:
  @emph{December 40, 2016}
- changing that line is the ONLY thing which is required to fix
  this problem.


As a nitpicky detail, this particular typo occurred within
  @ifset web_version
  ...
  @end ifset

so it has no impact on the documentation at all.  We can see that
by checking
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.19/Documentation/web/

Also, I'm surprised that you considered updating the unstable
documentation -- if it's wrong, wouldn't we just wait for the next
unstable release?

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: Small typo on LilyPond.org

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 04:09:02PM -0700, SoundsFromSound wrote:
> Graham Percival-3 wrote
> > As always, I'm happy to mentor anybody who wants to contribute to
> > LilyPond.  There's plenty of work to go around, even for easy
> > typo-fixes like changing
> >   @emph{December 40, 2016}
> > to
> >   @emph{December 04, 2016}
> 
> Sorry if I started something by sending my initial email, I didn't think it
> was a super big issue -but I just figured it was a small simple

Thanks for the report!  Yes, this is a small simple thing to fix.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: How to build LilyPond.app on macOS?

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 08:49:55PM +1100, Andrew Bernard wrote:
> I have offered on more than one occasion on the list to do the Python port. I
> have been knocked back, to be more accurate, strongly discouraged, each time.
> As somebody with over forty years of software development experience, I have
> the skills required, but not only that I have the time and the motivation, and
> the inclination to help.

If you are serious, then I would be happy to provide any mentoring
you require.  My rough guess is that it will take 30-60 hours to
make the change.

1) add python 3.x to our Grand Unified Builder:
https://github.com/gperciva/gub
Depending on how well python 3 crafted its build system, this
might require additional patches to their source tarball.
Hopefully it can be cross-compiled with only
./configure --options, though.
We currently have 30 different patches for python in GUB, although
those are spread between 2.4, 2.5, and 2.6.

This step is much more of "sysadmin task" or "unix developer" task
rather than a "python developer" task.  You'll run the script,
wait for a build failure, track down the missing dependency and/or
new ./configure --option required to build on the platform (for
example, cross-compiling for i386 or OSX, while running Linux
amd64), then repeat.

I'm guessing 20-40 hours for this part.


2) (could be simultaneous with 1): update our python scripts to
run in python3.  Ideally, ensure that they can run in 2 or 3 --
otherwise the coordination will be iffy and disruptive to other
developers.

I'm guessing 5-10 hours for this.



3) Make the switch, and fix whatever weirdness appears when people
use it "in the wild".

I'm guessing 5-10 hours.


If you're still interested, let's talk more!

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: Small typo on LilyPond.org

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 10:46:14PM +0100, Noeck wrote:
> Am 07.12.2016 um 11:24 schrieb Phil Holmes:
> > it would be too much effort to fix something so minor
> 
> From my naive point of view, there is something inherently wrong with a
> website system if it is too much effort to correct a typo...

I agree, but thankfully that's not the case here.  I'm looking
forward to receiving your patch, Noeck!  :)

As always, I'm happy to mentor anybody who wants to contribute to
LilyPond.  There's plenty of work to go around, even for easy
typo-fixes like changing
  @emph{December 40, 2016}
to
  @emph{December 04, 2016}

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: How to build LilyPond.app on macOS?

[Graham Percival]

On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 07:25:44PM +0100, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> Dear Graham,
> 
> On 6 December 2016 at 19:01, Graham Percival wrote:
> > This is compiled and uploaded to:
> > http://lilypond.org/downloads/gub-sources/osx-lilypad-universal/osx-lilypad-universal-0.6.3.tar.gz
> > and then GUB downloads that, inserts the cross-compiled
> > command-line binary, and packages it.
> 
> I can luckily skip that part :)
> Including instructions to fetch Python 2.6.
> (I really wonder why LilyPond nowadays ships with Python 2.6.)

Changing it to something else would require updating all our
scripts, cross-compiling the newer version of python on all 8 (or
so) architectures, and testing the whole thing.  This is a
non-trivial undertaking, especially since (ideally) the end result
is "things work exactly the way they did before spending 100 hours
on this task".

That's why technical debt is so hard to combat: it takes a lot of
effort, and there's usually no immediate payoff.  Sure, it would
help things in 1, 2, 5, or 10 years down the road.

> This is off-topic, but the idea of a package manager is usually to
> compile natively. I'm almost sure that Debian doesn't fetch your
> binaries either.

That is incorrect; Debian most definitely fetches pre-compiled
binaries.  Out of all the major Linux distributions, only gentoo
fetches source code and compiles it by default.

> > then adds some sort of GUI shell or editor.
> 
> Redesigning the GUI for LilyPond is something that would likely
> require more effort that I'm personally willing to spend for this.

Fair enough.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: How to build LilyPond.app on macOS?

[Graham Percival]

On Tue, Dec 06, 2016 at 08:44:58AM +0100, Mojca Miklavec wrote:
> I found
> http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.18/Documentation/contributor-big-page
> (didn't read it all) and only suspect that some logic might live in
> GUB, but I'm pretty much lost for the moment.

I am familiar with the process as of 4 years ago; it may have
changed since then.  Much of it is in GUB, but the actual code for
the editor is here:
https://github.com/gperciva/lilypad

This is compiled and uploaded to:
http://lilypond.org/downloads/gub-sources/osx-lilypad-universal/osx-lilypad-universal-0.6.3.tar.gz
and then GUB downloads that, inserts the cross-compiled
command-line binary, and packages it.

> I would like to see LilyPond.app being distributed in a package
> manager, but for that to happen I first need to understand how to
> build it.

As others have commented, the text editor included in the
LilyPond.app is rather basic.  In addition, this whole process was
created a decade ago.  If I were interested in the lilypond
experience on OSX, I'd start looking at a new implementation:
something that takes the compiled lilypond package (which I
imagine can be easily done in homebrew or some other package
manager), then adds some sort of GUI shell or editor.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

On Sun, Dec 04, 2016 at 04:06:53AM +, Karlin High wrote:
> >From: Graham Percival <gra...@percival-music.ca>
> >Sent: Saturday, December 3, 2016 3:35 PM
> >   
> >If there was a single mentor for the new contributor, and if other
> >people didn't make well-intentioned but ultimately misleading
> >suggestions, we could have avoided 95% of this mess.
> 
> Dunno quite, but I gather you have far more experience in this area.

:)

> To me, a good web developer is someone with the technical skill
> of a computer programmer and the creativity and "style sense" of
> a graphic designer. I think people with those skill sets are
> rare indeed if they take kindly to being told how to do their
> own work in somebody else's way, and how and why their preferred
> methods are unsuitable for the job at hand.

Going by your definition of "web developer", I do not think they
would be a suitable match for the LilyPond project.  That is not
to cast doubt on their skills, and certainly not on their
employability or desirability for a large number of other
organizations.

This is a community project -- and in particular, a community
project of people who are attracted to highly polished music
engraving.  The ability to communicate well and navigate our loose
social organization is much more important than design ability.
This may well result in a less flashy website design, but I will
*enthusiastically* embrace that trade-off if it makes our existing
developers feel more positive about the project.

I am absolutely serious about that final clause.  Most people do
not realize how few people are working on LilyPond, and how much
more difficult it becomes when experienced developers leave.

> Couldn't offering a mentor leave the impression that the
> LilyPond community thinks they don't know their stuff?

I chose the word "mentor" because that's the word that Debian
uses.  Nobody can just sign up and start uploading packages; you
must have an existing Debian developer to mentor you, approve your
changes, and upload material on your behalf until you are deemed
to be sufficiently experienced with their particular system and
policies.

I'm certainly open to using another word if it can convey a
similar meaning without any unintended connotations.

> Maybe there's a parallel here: how about having the lilypond.org
> web development done by a current LilyPond documentation
> contributor (if any can be spared for the work)

heh.

I mentioned earlier "how few people are working on LilyPond"?  I
do not believe [1] that there are any dedicated LilyPond
documentation contributors at the moment.  Oh, there's a few
people who can make a few edits -- when they're not reporting
bugs, building releases, testing proposed patches for bugs, etc
etc.

There is a huge backlog of tasks.  Some of them are quite
complicated, of course, but many could be done by any reasonably
intelligent person who is willing to spend 3-5 hours a week
helping out.  And yes, improving the website CSS is one such
simple task [2].

[1] if there are such people, my apologies; I'm still getting up
to speed.

[2] For example, we currently define the font size in two places
in terms of pixels, instead of em.  So, task 1: replace "19px"
with "1.25em" in lilypond-website.css.  Then test on a few
different browsers.  There are websites which will let you test
web designs in browsers, and even on mobile devices.  If the
result looks ok, we'll get that patch put into operation.

Is this difficult?  Not at all.  That's one of the great tragedies
of our project.  If I took all the time I spent reading and
writing emails in this thread, and instead worked on the website
CSS, most of the problems would be fixed by now.  However, that
wouldn't help with the lack of contributors to LilyPond in the
long run.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

On Sat, Dec 03, 2016 at 03:39:58PM -0800, Graham Percival wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 03, 2016 at 11:08:00PM +0100, Simon Albrecht wrote:
> > On 03.12.2016 22:35, Graham Percival wrote:
> > >A wiki is never the right answer.
> > 
> > Please elaborate :-) Because it’s too open for everyone to alter?
> 
> Because "somebody else" will fix it.

PS: the fancy psychology term for this is "bystander effect".  I'm
not at all the first person to observe this behaviour!  Although
most of that literature is focused on how a person or group of
people acts in an emergency situation, not a mundane task such as
updating documentation.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

On Sat, Dec 03, 2016 at 11:08:00PM +0100, Simon Albrecht wrote:
> On 03.12.2016 22:35, Graham Percival wrote:
> >A wiki is never the right answer.
> 
> Please elaborate :-) Because it’s too open for everyone to alter?

Because "somebody else" will fix it.  Also, it adds yet one more
place that people are supposed to look at.

We tried two different wikis in the early days of LilyPond; they
were never sufficiently updated to be worthwhile.  LSR was a third
attempt at "handwavy community-edited content", but it was never
the success that the initial proponents suggested.

Diffuse responsibility begs people to think "oh well, somebody
else will do it".  In a project as huge as wikipedia, sure, if
0.0001% of readers get involved, it works.  But even in projects
as big as Debian or Ubutu, a wiki soon becomes riddled with
outdated info.

That's a mistake that the Grand Documentation Project went to
great lengths to avoid.  Individual volunteers took responsibility
for specific portions of the docs; they got the job done, moved on
to another portion, and repeated.  The results are beautiful.
Even the Bug Squad was organized on similar lines.  If we merely
had a pool of 5 people who processed emails, I'm sure it would end
up being a mess.  Instead, each person has a specific day(s), and
that system worked.  (At least for the first few years; not
certain how it's doing now.)

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

On Sat, Dec 03, 2016 at 08:45:30PM +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> Karlin High  writes:
> 
> > I like Urs Liska's idea of having a wiki or contributor guide entry for 
> > web developer work.
> 
> Yes, it makes sense.

A wiki is never the right answer.

Karlin's suggestion of adding a warnings to the Contributor guide
is good.  Even better would be if we had a mentorship program.  If
there was a single mentor for the new contributor, and if other
people didn't make well-intentioned but ultimately misleading
suggestions, we could have avoided 95% of this mess.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

On Fri, Dec 02, 2016 at 07:50:50PM +0100, Jean-Charles Malahieude wrote:
> I've already given it a try, but get stopped by some errors I don't know how
> to resolve (I've no knowledge about perl). Three patches are available for
> anybody willing to help me… I can compile the English version, except that I
> don't get the TOC sidebar.

Hmm, sounds like there's some duplicated effort there.  In July
2015, we created:
https://github.com/gperciva/lilypond-texinfo
to try to update lilypond-texi2html-init.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Dec 01, 2016 at 08:10:17PM -0500, Paul wrote:
> I just wish that working with texinfo (for the website) was more intuitive
> for contributors who know HTML but not texinfo.  For example, an HTML
> element with an id and also a number of classes, all used for styling it
> with CSS.  I don't know if you can generate that HTML element (with both id
> and classes) from texinfo with our current setup.

Here's an example from web.texi:

@divId{quickSummary}
LilyPond is a music engraving program, devoted to producing the
highest-quality sheet music possible.  It brings the aesthetics of
traditionally engraved music to computer printouts.  LilyPond is free
software and part of the @uref{http://gnu.org,GNU Project}.

@divClass{align-right}
Read more in our @ref{Introduction}!

@divEnd
@divEnd


The macros could be easily extended to add multiple classes (if they
don't do that already; I can't recall).

Cheers,
- Graham

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some mentoring available

[Graham Percival]

Contributing to LilyPond is not easy; there are a number of
technical and social challenges that make it daunting, especially
for people who have not contributed to mature open-source projects
before.

The best way to address this is by having a mentor.  An
experienced developer can help guide you through the process,
point out exactly what you need to read, commiserate about any
difficulties, and generally minimize any wasted time or effort.

I'm available to mentor 1-3 contributors to the documentation and
website.

Why me?  Although I've been "out of the loop" of lilypond
development for the past few years, I still have more experience
mentoring new lilypond developers than anybody else.  In 2008, I
ran the "Grand Documentation Project", which involved more than 20
contributors.  Many of the currently active developers began
working with me, and are now absolutely vital to the project.

Due to some health issues, I am not currently looking to run
another huge "Grand Project" yet.  I'm tentatively looking at
doing this in 4-6 months.  Before that, however, it would be
useful to guide a few people through the process.

If you're interested in helping out LilyPond and willing to spend
3-5 hours a week, get in touch!  Even if you're not particularly
interested in documentation, it's still a great way to "learn the
ropes".

Cheers,
- Graham Percival

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

I understand.  My apologies for being slow to get going; I only
re-joined LilyPond on Wednesday, in part because I suspected how
this was going to play out.  I plan to improve the process for new
contributors, but it will likely be 4-6 months before we have the
technical and social capability in place.

Cheers,
- Graham

On Fri, Dec 02, 2016 at 03:29:58PM -0500, John Roper wrote:
> This has turned into quite a bigger problem than I expected. I understand your
> reasons, but as a more modernistic designer and developer, I don't agree with
> most of your descisions no offense or problem. I just don't think I am the 
> best
> person for the job.
> 
> On Dec 2, 2016 2:19 PM, "Graham Percival" <gra...@percival-music.ca> wrote:
> 
> Hi John,
> 
> Thanks for your interest in helping LilyPond!  I wonder if you
> might be interested in having a dedicated mentor to help you
> navigate our development process.  We are more than 20 years old,
> and our process is aimed at allowing us to keep things rolling as
> smoothly as possible.
> 
> I've taken the liberty of uploading your latest (I think) css file
> and adding comments here:
> https://codereview.appspot.com/313170043/
> 
> As mentioned before, I strongly recommend that you begin by only
> making a small change; this CSS file includes a few changes at
> once, and that makes it harder to view how this file has changed
> over time.  Would you be willing to send a file which only changes
> the navbar, for example?
> 
> Cheers,
> - Graham
> 
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 09:38:32PM -0500, John Roper wrote:
> > And another fix for links.
> >
> 
> 

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

Hi John,

Thanks for your interest in helping LilyPond!  I wonder if you
might be interested in having a dedicated mentor to help you
navigate our development process.  We are more than 20 years old,
and our process is aimed at allowing us to keep things rolling as
smoothly as possible.

I've taken the liberty of uploading your latest (I think) css file
and adding comments here:
https://codereview.appspot.com/313170043/

As mentioned before, I strongly recommend that you begin by only
making a small change; this CSS file includes a few changes at
once, and that makes it harder to view how this file has changed
over time.  Would you be willing to send a file which only changes
the navbar, for example?

Cheers,
- Graham

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 09:38:32PM -0500, John Roper wrote:
> And another fix for links.
> 


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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

The same information that's on the website is also produced in pdf
and info (a GNU/Linux documentation system).

I *strongly* encourage you to modify the existing lilypond.css file
and use the current HTML files, rather than trying to recreate the
texinfo from scratch.  Even if you want to eventually make more
drastic changes, it would be good to start off with something easy
and see how the process goes.  For example, these changes can
definitely be done simply by editing the CSS File:
- different font
- flat colors in the navbar
- more space around the boxes

I personally would start off with the navbar changes.  Produce the
patch, submit it, get it accepted, see lilypond.org updated with
your work -- and then start on another change.

Cheers,
- Graham

On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 07:48:53PM -0500, John Roper wrote:
> Why specifically do we *need* to use textinfo? If I could make a new
> system that would auto generate the docs that works with the current
> system would you use it?
> 
> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 7:23 PM, John Roper  wrote:
> > What I had to do for the new design was create entirely new markup
> > from scratch. If it is not possible to use that, we have no new
> > design.
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 7:21 PM, John Roper  wrote:
> >> So, does texinfo create all the markup and you add the styling, or do
> >> you add some of the markup? If so, where is it?
> >>
> >> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 7:07 PM, John Roper  wrote:
> >>> https://github.com/johnroper100/LilyPond-Web-Redesign
> >>>
> >>> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 6:55 PM, John Roper  
> >>> wrote:
>  I am going to put the code in a GitHub repo for now so that I can keep 
>  track
>  of it.
> 
> 
>  On Nov 30, 2016 6:53 PM, "John Roper"  wrote:
> >
> > I am prepared to take my design and start to convert it over to the text
> > info generator (at least on the home page).
> >
> >
> > On Nov 30, 2016 6:29 PM, "Carl Sorensen"  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> On 11/30/16 2:58 PM, "Noeck"  wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >> >I was a bit disappointed that the suggestions have narrowed down so
> >> >quickly to something so close to the old layout. But perhaps the 
> >> >chances
> >> >are better to get somewhere from there than to have ~10 to quickly ~50
> >> >completely different proposals.
> >>
> >> Here's my view of the course of this discussion:
> >>
> >> 1) John came up with a Wordpress layout.  (I never saw that layout,
> >> because it has been replaced with the new "just adjust the CSS" 
> >> lilypond
> >> example).
> >>
> >> 2) Some people expressed appreciation for the new layout; others
> >> expressed
> >> concerns about the technology.  John, in an impressive burst of work
> >> created multiple versions responding to people's concerns.
> >>
> >> 3) Several users discussed preferences for the old design.
> >>
> >> 4) Some developers chimed in about the desire/necessity to keep the
> >> website auto created and pointed out that it would be straightforward 
> >> to
> >> change the CSS.
> >>
> >> 5) John followed that lead and jumped in with changes to the CSS.
> >>
> >> It seems likely to me that we are not too far from having new CSS that
> >> can
> >> be added to the LilyPond source to make some incremental, but 
> >> significant
> >> improvements to the website.
> >>
> >> Once John has worked on getting the new CSS implemented, he'll be in 
> >> much
> >> better shape to make recommendations for changes that are or can be 
> >> made
> >> consistent with our current infrastructure.  Such changes have a very
> >> high
> >> likelihood of implementation.  Since my time being involved with
> >> LilyPond,
> >> I can't remember a developer who proposed changes in the website that
> >> could be implemented in our current framework failing to get those
> >> changes
> >> adopted.
> >>
> >> Changes that require shifting large parts of our current source (and by
> >> that I mean documents, not code) to some different infrastructure will 
> >> be
> >> met with skepticism by the development community, I believe.  Someone 
> >> who
> >> wants to have such changes made will need to shoulder most (or all) of
> >> the
> >> burden to make those changes.  But if someone is willing to do that, 
> >> and
> >> the new infrastructure will support our translation process as well or
> >> better than our current infrastructure, I would expect those changes to
> >> eventually be implemented.
> >>
> >> I hope John doesn't feel like he's had a negative response.  I believe
> >> he's had a response that points out the 

Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 05:27:03PM +, Karlin High wrote:
> On 11/29/2016 11:07 AM, Graham Percival wrote:
> > Speaking as somebody with actual experience in this area (namely, the 
> > person who created the current website): start off by modifying the 
> > CSS file.
> 
> Would those be the CSS  files in this source code folder?
> 
> $YOURSOURCEDIR/Documentation/css

That looks right, but I think most web developers would be more
comfortable grabbing them from here:
http://lilypond.org/css/

That way, they can get the HTML files, get the CSS, and have it
running on their own server.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: New LilyPond website

[Graham Percival]

On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 05:22:25PM +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
> Karlin High  writes:
> 
> > On 11/29/2016 6:13 AM, John Roper wrote:
> >>
> >> Yea, where could the templates for the website now be found? I could 
> >> do style updates. I wouldn't look as good as the WordPress but it can 
> >> be better.
> >
> > And, maybe wait for further suggestions from someone with actual 
> > experience in this area.
> 
> The problem is that John may wait a long time then since a lot of stuff
> these days is maintained on autopilot by people with confined knowledge
> about the code in question.

I haven't seen John's new design, because all I see is a loading
icon (from email comments, apparently it requires javascript?
I browse without javascript because my chromebook can't handle the
"modern javascript" on most websites in what I consider to be a
reasonable amount of time).

Speaking as somebody with actual experience in this area (namely,
the person who created the current website): start off by
modifying the CSS file.

Again, I haven't seen his site, but 90% of the kinds of changes
that people propose for the lilypond website can be made easily in
the CSS.  This doesn't impact "make web", it doesn't impact the
translations... it causes absolutely 0 headaches for the existing
technical infrastructure.

(If you need extra , that would require 1-2
hours of developer attention to add it to the process.  Not at all
a problem.)

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: LilyPond logo?

[Graham Percival]

Why the emphasis on water flowers in the logo?  The important part
of LilyPond is the beautifully-engraved sheet music, not botany.

I think it would be a nicer approach to having something
recognizably "sheet music" in the logo.  For example, simply "Lp",
with the "p" being in the normal dynamic font, and the "L" being
some kind of fancy cursive thing.  That way, musicians would
instantly recognize the logo as having to do with sheet music.

On a related note, I highly recommend potrace, which does a
beautiful job of changing bitmaps into vector graphics.  To my
untrained eye, the output looks to be professionally drawn (due to
the gradual changes in line width):
http://potrace.sourceforge.net/samples.html


I also think it would be interesting to play with lilypond's text
markup commands.  There's a lot of neat things that can be done
with alignment, rotation, and the graphical text markup -- and
again, if the logo is comprised of elements of musical notation,
it will be much more recognizable as a logo for something to do
with sheet music.

Cheers,
- Graham Percival

On Sat, Aug 06, 2016 at 05:11:26PM +0200, Pierre Perol-Schneider wrote:
>Plus pdf
> 
>2016-08-06 17:10 GMT+02:00 Pierre Perol-Schneider
><[1]pierre.schneider.pa...@gmail.com>:
> 
>Logo test enclosed.
>Cheers,
>Pierre
> 
>2016-08-06 15:32 GMT+02:00 Carl Sorensen <[2]c_soren...@byu.edu>:
> 
>  On 8/5/16 11:28 AM, "Simon Albrecht" <[3]simon.albre...@mail.de>
>  wrote:
>  >Am 05.08.2016 um 15:50 schrieb Mark Knoop:
>  > > At 14:40 on 05 Aug 2016, Phil Holmes wrote:
>  > >> - Original Message -
>  > >> From: Andrew Bernard
>  > >>> I also note that there does not seem to be consistency as to
>  whether
>  > >>> lilypond is
>  > >>> ŒLilypond¹ or ŒLilyPond¹ or ŒLily Pond¹ or Œlilypond¹. That at
>  least
>  > >>> needs to be straightened out.
>  > >> LilyPond. Check the front page of the website.
>  > > $ git grep LilyPond Documentation/ | wc -l
>  > > 11154
>  > > $ git grep Lilypond Documentation/ | wc -l
>  > > 329
>  > > $ git grep "Lily Pond" Documentation/ | wc -l
>  > > 2
>  >
>  > I¹m sure a patch would be welcome :-) Not being familiar with sed,
>  I
>  > won¹t make one myselfŠ
>  A patch for the two occurrences of "Lily Pond" has been created.
> 
>Thanks,
>Carl
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> 
> References
> 
>1. mailto:pierre.schneider.pa...@gmail.com
>2. mailto:c_soren...@byu.edu
>3. mailto:simon.albre...@mail.de
>4. mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org
>5. https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user


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automatically populating \header from top-level variables?

[Graham Percival]

I'm preparing a few books of my compositions, and looking for the
best way to organize my files.  For example, one such book
consists of 5 pieces for 3 cellos.  I have:
- 5 "music data" files
- 20 "print instrument \bookpart" files ((1 score + 3 cellos) * 5
  pieces)
- 4 "top-level" files which combine the relevant "print
  instrument \bookpart" files into \books.

I have a working system (below), but I'm wondering if I can
simplify it.  In particular, I'd like to avoid repeating the
  \bookpart {
\header { ... }
material in every "print instrument" file.

Essentially, I'm hoping that it's possible to say "any time you
see a \bookpart, set its \header{} values to these
currently-defined variables, then clear those variables and
continue parsing".  So far all my attempts along those lines
result in definitions intended for the second piece being used for
the first piece as well.

Cheers,
- Graham


\version "2.18.2"

%%% music-op-1-1.ly
title = "title 1 in C"
opus = "Op 1, no. 1"
piece = "This is a short performance note."
music = <<
  \tag #'score \tag #'one { e'4 }
  \tag #'score \tag #'two { c'4 }
>>

%%% print-score-op-1-1.ly
\bookpart {
  \header {
title = \title
opus = \opus
piece = \piece
  }
  \score { \keepWithTag #'score \music }
}

%%% music-op-1-2.ly
title = "title 2 in D"
opus = "Op 1, no. 2"
piece = ""
music = <<
  \tag #'score \tag #'one { f'4 }
  \tag #'score \tag #'two { d'4 }
>>

%%% print-score-op-1-2.ly
\bookpart {
  \header {
title = \title
opus = \opus
piece = \piece
  }
  \score { \keepWithTag #'score \music }
}


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Re: python 2.6 in GUB Re: LilyPond-Book on Windows

[Graham Percival]

On Sun, Apr 06, 2014 at 10:44:19AM +0100, Phil Holmes wrote:
 Doesn't Julien have GUB with python 2.6 ready for testing?
 
 I should be able to test GUB with Julien's Python 2.6 later this
 week.  I'd just like to check the process.  I click the Merge pull
 request at https://github.com/gperciva/gub/pull/6 and this pushes
 Julien's changes into the GUB repo?

I do not recommend this -- his changes are untested, so we don't
want that to become master on the (I think?) official GUB used for
lilypond.

(incidently, I second the calls to have a shared lilypond
account on github.  I understand David's concerns about github,
and realize that moving to savannah might be better in the long
term.  But in the short term, going from github:gperciva to
github:lilypond does not lose anything.  And it's been months and
months (maybe over a year?) since I left lilypond development)

 I then pull the GUB repo on my GUB VM and this will get the
 changes into my version of GUB?

There's a way to get Julien's changes onto your local computer to
test them, but I can't speak with any certainty as to how this is
done.

 I then make lilypond as usual.  What if it doesn't work?  We
 then need to test the built binaries: should I put them on my
 own website for people to grab and test, or do a normal upload?

Please put them on your own website for people to grab and test.

Cheers,
- Graham

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python 2.6 in GUB Re: LilyPond-Book on Windows

[Graham Percival]

On Sat, Apr 05, 2014 at 08:53:04AM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 Jan Nieuwenhuizen jann...@gnu.org writes:
 
  David Kastrup writes:
 
  So my first impulse would be to throw out the workaround for 2.4.2 that
 
  Let's do that.
 
 Well, issue 1933
 URL:http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=1933 would
 suggest that this is a bad idea.  Nothing substantially has changed
 since then.  I'm currently trying to get the TEXINPUTS stuff integrated
 into the Mingw fix to arrive back at a working lilypond-book, but of
 course it is to be hoped that moving Python forward to 2.6 might make
 that problem go away.  But it will take longer to figure that out.

Doesn't Julien have GUB with python 2.6 ready for testing?  I
would move forward on that before diving into the dark waters of
os.popen in python 2.4.  I remember bug 1933; it was really
annoying.

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: moving LilyPond blog to our website

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Jun 05, 2013 at 11:19:01PM +0200, Janek Warchoł wrote:
 As for now i see that Wordpress provides everything i need and
 seems to work.

I have no personal experience with wordpress, but I heavily
recommend wordpress / google blogger / identi.ca / any pre-made
blog-hosting system,  rather than trying to handle the technical
sutff manually.

- Graham

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Re: moving LilyPond blog to our website

[Graham Percival]

On Tue, Jun 04, 2013 at 12:52:17PM +0100, Phil Holmes wrote:
 - Original Message - From: Janek Warchol
 it seems to be decided that we're moving the blog to our website (i.e.
 to be hosted on lilypond.org), and we're doing it asap, because as
 Paul said:

wait, what?

 I don't think we've agreed anything of the sort.  People have
 requested it, but nothing more.

Yes.

 I have them, because I need them to upload the website.  However, I
 honestly don't think it's a case of just asking someone and admin
 being given.  As others have said, what about the load on the
 server?  Will there be any other effect.  I'd suggest trying to
 involve GP before assuming this will automatically happen.

If the blog posts are being written in texinfo, then these posts
would just be news items.  Nothing strange.  Write a doc patch,
test with make website, git-cl, review, etc.  Or we could even
skip the review and push straight to staging as long as you test
with make doc first.

If you want to write the posts in rst or markdown, then you'd want
to look at a static site generator, like pelican or nikola.  I've
been experimenting with nikola for my own website (not uploaded
yet).  While you investigate those programs, you should check that
they can integrate nicely with the existing website.

If you don't have experience with static site generators and our
website build process, ETA 20 hours to get a decent hello world.
This time includes responding to patch reviews.

- Graham

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Re: lilypond on webserver

[Graham Percival]

On Sat, Jun 01, 2013 at 04:48:10PM -0400, Jim Tisdall wrote:
 I'm making interactive typesetting to provide material
 to users of a music book.  First pass, I'm using mac pro
 system and perl CGI and apache 2.2 server.  (I've programmed
 in scheme in the past, but perl is likely the best - quickest -
 tool for what I'm doing.)

You may be interested in this:
http://percival-music.ca/blog/2010-11-20-firelily.html

- Graham

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Re: LilyPond blog! who wants to join?

[Graham Percival]

On Sat, Jun 01, 2013 at 12:13:03AM +0200, Nils Gey wrote:
 On Fri, 31 May 2013 23:59:12 +0200
 Janek Warchoł janek.lilyp...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  and it's time for a first contest!  The blog needs a catchy name.
  Whoever suggests the best name will be the first one interviewed on
  the new blog!
 
 Aquatic Plants in Music

I like this.  Funny, but still classy, and definitely related to
lilypond.  I could totally imagine that being the title of a
contemporary music composition, too.

- Graham

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Re: LilyPond 2.16+ on WINE 1.0

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, May 09, 2013 at 09:48:11PM +0100, Silas S. Brown wrote:
 On Wed, May 08, 2013 at 12:50:46PM -0700, Graham Percival wrote:
  Bug report please.
 
 You mean, installing modern Lilypond on an ancient Linux
 distro is supposed to be supported?

If there's a specific requirement, then it might be nice to list
them on the lilypond.org/unix.html download page.

 Well, I downloaded
 http://download.linuxaudio.org/lilypond/binaries/linux-x86/lilypond-2.16.2-1.linux-x86.sh
 and chmod +x'd it and ran it, and it seemed to install,
 but then when I tried to run Lilypond it said:
 
 /usr/local/lilypond/usr/bin/lilypond: /lib/libgcc_s.so.1:
 version GCC_4.0.0 not found (required by
 /usr/local/lilypond/usr/bin/lilypond)
 
 so it seems this version of Lilypond won't run without a
 version of the GCC library that came with GCC 4.

Thanks, that's useful info.  Hopefully somebody can add Requires
gcc 4.0 libraries or higher (included in all modern
distributions) to the download page.

- Graham

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Re: LilyPond 2.16+ on WINE 1.0

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, May 08, 2013 at 08:43:13PM +0100, Silas S. Brown wrote:
 Thanks Francisco.  Unfortunately the recommended installers
 don't work for installing modern Lilypond on Debian Sarge.
 But thanks for the suggestion.

Bug report please.  As long as you get the right CPU type, it
should work.

- Graham

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Re: Request for feedback on 'lobbying' paper

[Graham Percival]

On Sat, Apr 20, 2013 at 01:05:40PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 Colin Hall colingh...@gmail.com writes:
 
  Here is a piece of opinion from me, so you know my position. Users of
  WYSIWYG engraving software accept the shortcomings because it is quick
  and effective. Users of text-based approaches accept the additional
  effort required because they are perfectionists.
 
 Actually, I tend to use text-based approaches not really because I care
 about the perfection of the result, but because it allows me to properly
 separate input, tool and output.

I haven't read the paper, but I'll chime in to say that I prefer
text-based because then I have complete control over my
documents (be they text, source code, or sheet music).  When
using a GUI tool[1], my hard work is at the mercy of some magical
process which may or may not save the data correctly.  If I want
to view my past work, I'm at the mercy of those tools.  When I was
a composition student, I found that my fellow students would give
excuses about their scores about once a week (oh, Finale put a
dotted line over those notes, but I couldn't figure out how to
remove it).

[1] yes, a few GUI tools save data in a human-readable format, but
those are unfortunately rare.


By contrast, using a text-based tool (especially in conjunction
with source control such as git) leaves me in control.  If
anything breaks (which it does occasionally), then I can easily
compare the previous (working) input to the current version and
figure how what I did wrong.

- Graham

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Re: svg output

[Graham Percival]

On Mon, Apr 15, 2013 at 01:25:42AM -0400, Bric wrote:
 
 How hard would it be to enhance the svg export with robust svg element id's 
 that
 retain (at least SOME of) the original lilypond's note characteristics ??
 
 instead of assigning anonymous generic inkscape object names (e.g.,
 id=rect7306 ), have id's such as:
 
 path style=... d=... id=note23_gis_head
 path style=... d=... id=note23_gis_stem
 path style=... d=... id=note23_gis_elem1
 path style=... d=... id=note23_gis_elem2
 ...
 etc.

This would be basically an extension of my patch here:
https://codereview.appspot.com/8273045
but unfortunately the academic project which would have required
that work was cancelled.  I think it would take 2-10 hours to get
the framework in place, depending on your level of familiarity
with lilypond internals.

- Graham

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Re: extending event-listener.ly

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Mar 28, 2013 at 08:09:45PM +0100, Phil Hézaine wrote:
 And what about the conversion of drum notes to midi pitches?
 I'm not able to find a way to write a specific function for that issue.
 Graham? Have you some time?

To clarify, I wasn't suggesting that drums should be converted to
midi pitches.  Rather, it should be possible to write a function
which extracts the MIDI pitch number (if it's a normal note), or
the drum name (if it's a drum note).  Using a function like that
would allow you to eliminate some duplicate lines, making the file
easier to maintain in the future.

- Graham

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Re: extending event-listener.ly

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Mar 27, 2013 at 08:21:53AM -0300, luis jure wrote:
 
 on 2013-03-26 at 16:04 Graham Percival wrote:
 
  I'm quite curious about this -- do drum events not have
  point-and-click info?
 
 BTW, i was quite curious myself about why the point-and-clik info was
 included in the first place. i thought it was only useful for pdf files.
 is this information used by your virtual violinist?

Yes, for the interactive training, I display the pdf, and when
users click on a note it displays information about that note (and
plays it audibly).  That allows users to identify mistakes, which
are then used to retrain the virtual violinist so that she
(hopefully) doesn't make that mistake again.

When running the virtual violinist in command-line mode, it's true
that point-and-click is not used for anything.

- Graham

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Re: extending event-listener.ly

[Graham Percival]

On Tue, Mar 26, 2013 at 08:12:42PM +0100, Phil Hézaine wrote:
 for NoteEvent:
 
 #(define (format-note engraver event)
(let* ((origin (ly:input-file-line-char-column
(ly:event-property event 'origin
  (print-line engraver
  note
  ;; get a MIDI pitch value.
  ;(+ 60 (ly:pitch-semitones
 (ly:event-property event 'drum-type) ;))

It would be nice if this was abstracted into a separate function:
  (get-pitch-or-drum
which would pick which type of output to produce.  Then I think we
could accept a patch to this effect without much fuss.

  ;; point and click info
  ;(ly:format point-and-click ~a ~a
  ;   (caddr origin)
  ;   (cadr origin))

I'm quite curious about this -- do drum events not have
point-and-click info?

- Graham

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Re: extending event-listener.ly

[Graham Percival]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 08:58:09AM -0300, luis jure wrote:
 i looked at event-listener.ly, but i'm afraid it's way over my head. i can
 hardly manage some basic python, for me scheme is undecipherable. 
 
 could anyone give me a hint how to modify event-listener.ly to recognize
 parenthesized notes?

Unfortunately you'll need some scheme knowledge, but if you can
get the general idea of the below function then you should be
fine:

#(define (format-note engraver event)
   (let* ((origin (ly:input-file-line-char-column
   (ly:event-property event 'origin
 (print-line engraver
 note
 ;; get a MIDI pitch value.
 (+ 60 (ly:pitch-semitones
(ly:event-property event 'pitch)))
 (ly:duration-string
  (ly:event-property event 'duration))
 (format-moment (ly:duration-length
 (ly:event-property event
'duration)))
 ;; point and click info
 (ly:format point-and-click ~a ~a
(caddr origin)
(cadr origin)

The important bit is the (print-line ...) function.  It has a
number of arguments:
  - engraver
  - note
  - a MIDI pitch value
  - a duration (like 4.)
  - a duration (like 1.25)
  - point-and-click info

To add \parenthesize, you need to create a similar function or
extend that original one to deal with those events.  To see the
events, try:

\displayMusic { c'4 \parenthesize d' e }

oh, it looks like \parenthesize is an option to a note, rather
than a separate event:
...
(make-music
  'NoteEvent
  'parenthesize
  #t
  'duration
  (ly:make-duration 2 0 1)
  'pitch
  (ly:make-pitch 0 1 0))
...


In that case, you need to add another argument to the
(print-line...) function to indicate whether the note is
parenthesized or not.  That requires a bunch more scheme, but this
should be enough hints for you to start reading the lilypond
scheme tutorial and the Extending manual.

A simple binary field would be enough for your personal use, but
it would be nice to have a more general approach in case people
want to add more options for notes.  Don't worry about this
general approach (required for accepted patches into mainstream
lilypond) right now; first just get the basics working for your
particular purpose.

- Graham

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Re: extending event-listener.ly

[Graham Percival]

On Mon, Mar 25, 2013 at 10:05:28PM +0100, Phil Hézaine wrote:
 Le 25/03/2013 17:29, Graham Percival a écrit :
 To add \parenthesize, you need to create a similar function or
 extend that original one to deal with those events.  To see the
 events, try:
 
 \displayMusic { c'4 \parenthesize d' e }

 Today, after the same discovery I was wondering the same question
 than Luis but for drum-types (in \drummode, ie: sna, wbl... )
 N.R. says: Not all lilypond music events are supported by
 ‘event-listener.ly’.
 Is it possible to 'listen' the drums symbols?

I think the above hint should suffice.

- Graham

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Re: Proposed new available and recommended behavior of \relative

[Graham Percival]

On Sat, Mar 09, 2013 at 12:20:19AM +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
 Olivier Biot olivier.b...@gmail.com writes:
 
  Treating the first pitch of \music in \relative \music differently is
  not intuitive and will likely result in octave errors.
 
 Treating the first pitch of \music in \relative is _absolutely_
 _unavoidable_ since the very _definition_ of relative pitches means that
 each pitch is specified in relation to the previous pitch, and the first
 pitch _has_ no previous pitch.

 So the first pitch will _always_ be special-cased.  With a reference
 pitch, it is special-cased to refer to that absolute pitch.  Without a
 reference pitch, it has to behave in _some_ manner as well.

The first pitch *within the {}* doesn't need to be special-cased.
It's just relative to the reference pitch, which is *outside* the
{}.  I still think that we should remove \relative { without any
reference pitch.

- Graham

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Re: Proposed new available and recommended behavior of \relative

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Mar 07, 2013 at 08:06:24PM +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
 
 The idea is that \relative { ... } (namely \relative used without an
 explicit reference pitch) uses the first note inside as the reference
 pitch.  That is, if the first note happens to be written as fis'' it
 will sound as fis'' (absolute pitch).

I don't like this, since it mixes the meanings of ' within a {}
scope.  I mean, with that change and given the input:
  \relative { c' c' }
the first c' means middle C
the second c' means jump an octave higher

Whereas keeping the explicit initial pitch:
  \relative c' { c' c' }
the c' outside the {} means middle C
each c' inside the {} means jump an octave higher

Is it really such a typing burden to add a c' between relative
and { in order to make the file easier to read?  I know that
David knows this, but just to remind people, you can absolutely do
things like
  \relative a'' { a b }
  \relative f,, { f d }

instead of using an octave of C for the initial pitch.

- Graham

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Re: Proposed new available and recommended behavior of \relative

[Graham Percival]

On Fri, Mar 08, 2013 at 12:37:55AM +0100, Martin Tarenskeen wrote:
 
 The idea is that \relative { ... } (namely \relative used without an
 explicit reference pitch) uses the first note inside as the reference
 pitch.  That is, if the first note happens to be written as fis'' it
 will sound as fis'' (absolute pitch).
 
 I wouldn't mind, if I can still use the the old syntax, which is
 what I prefer, and if the documentation clearly explains these two
 ways of usage. I think the old syntax is easier for me when I want
 to copy/paste notes.

I don't think the documentation *can* clearly explain the proposed
way of usage.

If you do not add an explicit pitch, the first note within the
{} is interpreted as an absolute note, while the following notes
within {} are interpreted as relative notes.

ok, the English grammar is not hard, but the concept is
unnecessarily complicated.

- Graham

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Re: Proposed new available and recommended behavior of \relative

[Graham Percival]

On Fri, Mar 08, 2013 at 06:29:34AM +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
 Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes:
 
  Whereas keeping the explicit initial pitch:
\relative c' { c' c' }
  the c' outside the {} means middle C
  each c' inside the {} means jump an octave higher
 
 Not every piece starts from c, and we had lots of discussions about what
 to do when it doesn't.  I think we promoted using \relative x''' { x for

Yes.

 this case so that one would not have to figure out the relation of x to
 c to figure out the starting pitch, and \relative x''' { x is really
 not more helpful than \relative { x'''.

I disagree.  In that case, the x''' *outside* the {} is interepted
as an absolute note, while all the xyz *inside* the {} are
interpreted as relative notes.


 Here are some examples from our code
 base:
 
 \context Voice  \relative c'' {

The fact that this uses \context Voice tells me that it was
probably written before 2005 or so, since I don't use that
construct and would normally complain about it if I saw it in a
patch.  I am entirely unsurprised that there are flaws in the
docs.

 sopranoMusic = \relative c'' {
   \clef treble
   r4 d2 a4 | d4. d8 a2 | cis4 d cis2 |
 }

looks ok to me?

 What's the deal with that?  How is this helpful when the starting pitch
 is not specified in relation to a preceding pitch in a musical phrase
 but rather in relation to some phantasmagoric pitch not in relation to
 scale or melody?  There is no c' in the key signature, so why in the
 \relative statements?

I wouldn't complain if somebody wanted to change the c'' to an
d''.

  I know that David knows this, but just to remind people, you can
  absolutely do things like \relative a'' { a b } \relative f,, { f d }
 
 And distribute the pitch information across two places possibly
 separated like
 
 \relative a'  \new Voice \time 2/4 \key g\major \clef treble R1*20
 \tuplet 3/2 { r r r } \tuplet 3/2 { r as

Spread of information is certainly a valid concern.  That's why my
scores would generally look like this:


  \new Voice {
\time 2/4
\key g\major
\clef treble

\relative a' {
  R1*20
  \tuplet 3/2 { r r r } \tuplet 3/2 { r as
}
  }



 And make no mistake: our code base does not show _any_ coherent usage of
 \relative.

That's no surprise to anybody familiar with the docs.

- Graham

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Re: Proposed new available and recommended behavior of \relative

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Mar 07, 2013 at 11:52:21PM -0600, Evan Driscoll wrote:
 Well... if you just don't emit the warning if the first pitch in a
 \relative {} block is incorrect, then it seems like you get exactly the
 current proposal except that you have to spell \relative { c'' } as
 \relative { c='' } instead.

I like that idea!

- Graham

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Re: Advocating non-free softwares [WAS: Heads up about Frescobaldi Ubuntu - Insert Menu Glitch]

[Graham Percival]

On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 10:03:30AM +0100, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote:
 Come to think of it, do we say something about the choice of operating
 system?  We don't do that on the download pages, we present them as
 equal choices.
 
 Why don't we say something on the download pages like:

-snip-

The download page is not a place for OS advocacy.  No user is
going to think hmm, this lilypond thing sounds interesting.
Maybe I should download it.  Oh look, a chunk of text that isn't
relevant to the task at hand.  I love reading irrelevant text!  oh
my goodness, apparently other operating systems are more free than
my current one.  I guess I'd better start backing up all my data
so that I can switch to a new OS.

The website is (mostly) streamlined, presenting just enough info
to the user to answer the immediate question at each stage of the
process.  I don't mind if you want to expand the
Introduction-Freedom page, but I am very wary of adding material
elsewhere unless it's absolutely necessary.

Perfection is achieved, not when there is nothing left to add,
but when there is nothing left to remove - paraphrased of a
translation from original French by Antoine St-Exuberie (sp).

- Graham

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Re: Behind Bars

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Feb 14, 2013 at 10:48:37PM +0100, m...@mikesolomon.org wrote:
 I'll just throw it out there that I'm broke after planning my wedding and 
 honeymoon in April (woohoo!) but have wanted to buy Behind Bars for some 
 time. If anyone feels like buying it for me for a wedding present, it'd get a 
 special spot in our new Ikea library! We'd even name a shelf after you!

I'll take this one.  :)

Mike, do you have this on a wedding registry, or should I find it
from amazon or something?  Also, which country are you in now?

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: Source code for website examples?

[Graham Percival]

On Mon, Feb 11, 2013 at 09:04:53PM +0100, Florian Hollerweger wrote:
 Plus, clicking the slide's heading will open the .ly file.
 Pretty sweet, don't you think? :)

I would actually caution against this; some of those source files
are not written to be easy to read.  Showing them to people
unfamiliar with lilypond might scare them off.  I'm thinking of
things like aucun-snippet.ly and bach-schenker.ly.  Of course, if
somebody cleaned up those files, that concern would be lessened.

- Graham

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Re: [ANNOUNCE] ly2video 0.3.0

[Graham Percival]

On Tue, Jan 29, 2013 at 06:59:37PM +, Adam Spiers wrote:
 I forgot to include a new example of the output.  The desire to make
 this video was the main reason I ended up taking over maintainership:
 
 http://youtu.be/asQtwd3dJfs

Woah, massively cool!

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: Guide to Writing Orchestral Scores with Lilypond?????

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Jan 10, 2013 at 10:43:42AM +0100, Urs Liska wrote:
  * Maintain the library's documentation and the tutorials (starting
with Antonio's proposed text on orchestral scores and hopefully with
a conversion of my existing tutorial) as a set of LaTeX documents.
  * I think there is no real alternative to this because

Why LaTeX as opposed to texinfo?  If it's latex, do you plan to
use latex2html, or simply not offer any html output at all?  If
you work in texinfo, then material could be added to the main
lilypond documentation, exposing it to more readers.

- Graham

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Re: Lilypond in Mac OS X Terminal

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 08:47:27PM +0100, Hans Aberg wrote:
 
 On 12 Dec 2012, at 16:32, David Kastrup wrote:
  Stupid question: why would one create executable shims to something like
  DIR/LilyPond.app/Contents/Resources/bin/* in ~/bin and then add ~/bin to
  one's PATH when one can just add
  DIR/LilyPond.app/Contents/Resources/bin/ instead?  Is DIR expected to
  contain stuff that is bad for PATH?
 
 This directory contains other stuff that might be conflicting with other same 
 named executable. For example, ps2pdf and such comes with the TeXLive 
 installation.

Yes, that's precisely the case.  Back in the 10.4 days, prepending
that directory to the path resulted in other programs (such as
pdflatex) being unable to produce valid pdf files due to some
conflict or missing share directory.  The executable shims ensure
that lilypond uses the packaged ps2pdf, while other command-line
osx programs don't use that.  This particular problem might be
avoidable by appending that dir to the path rather than
prepending, but then I'd be concerned about lilypond using the
system ps2pdf rather than our packaged one.

The executable shims avoid those problems, while being relatively
easy to explain to newbies.

- Graham

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Re: Lilypond in Mac OS X Terminal

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Dec 12, 2012 at 09:14:12PM +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
 Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes:
 
  The executable shims avoid those problems, while being relatively easy
  to explain to newbies.
 
 The libexec route appears to cater for all of that.  We should use bin
 just for executables supposed to be entry points of LilyPond.

I have no objection to that.  Patches will most likely be required
for both:
https://github.com/gperciva/gub
https://github.com/gperciva/lilypad

- Graham

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Re: Supporting LilyPond development financially

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Nov 08, 2012 at 10:38:53AM +0100, David Kastrup wrote:
 Francisco Vila paconet@gmail.com writes:
  If I were the sole designer/developer of the web page, I'd put a big
  star-shaped Donate! or Sponsor! button clearly visible on the front
  page. Tiny, personal projects do it all the time.
 
 Ah, but this is not a tiny, personal project.  We discussed this before,
 and putting a Donate to David button on a central LilyPond page was
 deemed inappropriate.  And just to make this very clear: _I_ consider it
 inappropriate as well.  Donating to the LilyPond project and Donating
 to David are separate things, and I don't want any mechanism in place
 where the first is more or less silently converted into the second.

David is completely correct here.

I would encourage interested people to put more effort into
fostering and maintaining a community: lilynet, maybe blogs, maybe
making mutopia (or some platform) more active, etc.  At the moment
there's a huge gap between the daily activity of mailing lists and
most users.  lilynet is a good start, but it's always in need of
more contributors and a more regular schedule.  And more
advertising... nobody added lilynet 28 to the main lilypond
website news, for example.

- Graham

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Re: Supporting LilyPond development financially

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Nov 08, 2012 at 01:30:58PM -0800, Jim Long wrote:
 On Thu, Nov 08, 2012 at 08:25:56PM +0100, Werner LEMBERG wrote:
  I think that there is 100% approval that you *do* such a huge amount
  of work.  And you should be payed for that IMHO.

I agree with the first sentence.  I have problems with the second
sentence -- nothing personal, just a general reluctance to support
any statement of the form X should be paid for Y without further
qualifications.  I definitely agree with X should be paid in
accordance with an agreement to exchange work or time for money.
I cannot agree with X should be paid for Y without specifying
exactly who should be doing the paying.

 I think that there is 100% agreement that David should continue
 to work on LilyPond.

With my previous paragraph in mind, I disagree; thus there is not
100\% agreement.

- Graham

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Re: Manual search returns results from wrong version

[Graham Percival]

On Tue, Oct 16, 2012 at 09:02:18AM +0100, Phil Holmes wrote:
 It's a common header, used on all the web pages, and therefore uses the same 
 version number throughout.  Non-trivial to change.

Shouldn't it be v2.16, though?  It's safer to point to v2.16
rather than v2.17.

- Graham

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Re: documentation download?

[Graham Percival]

On Fri, Oct 12, 2012 at 07:04:04AM +1100, Nick Payne wrote:
 On 11/10/12 23:18, Eluze wrote:
  if you have good ideas how to
  design this page better and make it more informative you are welcome
  to send them as an enhancement request to the bug list!
 
 With previous versions, the downloadable PDFs could be accessed directly
 from the web page http://lilypond.org/manuals.html, but this is no
 longer the case.

I cannot recall the pdfs ever being on manuals.html, and a quick
check of
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.14/Documentation/web/manuals
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.13/Documentation/web/manuals
suggests that my memory is not flawed.  Are you thinking of the
doc tarball at
http://lilypond.org/all.html
?

oh, maybe you're thinking of the development page?
http://lilypond.org/development.html

- Graham

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Re: How to reserve more space for fermata mark (to prevent large vertical shifts)

[Graham Percival]

On Sat, Oct 06, 2012 at 06:44:18AM +0200, Werner LEMBERG wrote:
 
  Rehearsal marks are one of the things that has extra-spacing-width
  set to (inf . -inf) so that it reserves no space during note-spacing
  
\once\override Score.RehearsalMark #'extra-spacing-width = #'()
 
 Something learned again :-)  Could this please be added to the
 `Rehearsal marks' section in the documentation?

Remember that any such effort in this direction should begin with
a LSR snippet, or if it relies on post-2.14 material, a snippet
which goes to Documentation/snippets/new/

- Graham

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Re: Possible feature request for 'q' shorthand or tie syntax

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Sep 19, 2012 at 11:56:02PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 Jim Long lilyp...@umpquanet.com writes:
 
  Please educate me if there is already a way to do this, but it
  appears that 'q' as a shorthand for the repetition of the
  previous note(s) only works for chords.  It would be handy if it
  worked for single notes also, specifically in ties.
 
 A single note name is not that much longer to type than q.  If it is
 really important to you, place the single note in a chord:
 des is perfectly repeatable by q.

What would we lose if every note was automatically a (single-note)
chord?

- Graham

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Re: Possible feature request for 'q' shorthand or tie syntax

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Sep 20, 2012 at 07:45:41PM +0200, Nicolas Sceaux wrote:
 
 Le 20 sept. 2012 à 19:21, Graham Percival a écrit :
 
  A single note name is not that much longer to type than q.  If it is
  really important to you, place the single note in a chord:
  des is perfectly repeatable by q.
  
  What would we lose if every note was automatically a (single-note)
  chord?
 
 That behavior is intended, so that you can write:
 
   c e g c' g q c q g q
 
 And the idea, if you wanted to repeat the previous single note, is
 to enclose it between  .
 q repeats the last chord, not the last note.  That's why it's named
 chord repetition symbol.

I thought the behaviour was intended to simplify things like
  c e g4 q q q

I'm particularly asking about making every note into a chord
because that would make David's favorite  construct a *lot* more
consistent.  At the moment, we have
  no note at a time unit: 
  single note at a time unit: c'4
  multiple notes at a time unit: c e g4

If c'4 was actually a shortcut for c'4, then we could have a
consistent notion that every time unit in every voice is a chord;
that chord may contain 0, 1, or many notes.

- Graham

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Re: lilypond manual intro

[Graham Percival]

On Sat, Sep 08, 2012 at 09:19:36PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes:
 
  (I'd also like to have an \absolute keyword so that doc examples
  using it could be more explicit, but that would need to wait until
  we have a good way to discuss syntax changes)
 
 absolute =
 #(define-music-function (parser location m) (ly:music?)
   #{ \transpose f f $m #})
 
 \relative c' { c f b \absolute { c' d' e' } c }
 
 It is not impervious against notename changes (I think I will at some
 point work on the notename language of #{...#} to correspond to the
 language at the time of definition rather than of use), but if required,
 it could be written equivalently in Scheme.

The point isn't to enable nesting of various \relative or
\transpose constructs.  It's to make the notation more explicit.
At a first glance, renaming \sequential to \absolute (or adding a
symlink which means that \absolute does the same thing as
\sequential) would achieve the goal.

- Graham

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Re: lilypond manual intro

[Graham Percival]

On Sun, Sep 09, 2012 at 12:30:44AM +0200, Janek Warchoł wrote:
 On Sun, Sep 9, 2012 at 12:14 AM, Karl Berry k...@freefriends.org wrote:
 
  Probably for the same reason I didn't: when we go to the web site and
  simply click the obvious links, the browser shows the version-dependent
  url.
 
  It is surely possible to make mod_rewrite not change the visible url, or
  otherwise arrange for the version-independent url to be shown, if
  there's a will for that to be the case ...
 
 That sounds very interesting!

I'm not certain that's a good idea, since it opens the door to
dead links.
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/learning/accidentals-and-key-signatures
is a valid link and will remain visible for the next 10 years
(barring truly unfortunate accidents)
http://lilypond.org/doc/stable/Documentation/learning/accidentals-and-key-signatures
will only remain visible as long as we do not change the structure
of the Learning manual.

For the sake of people looking up emails in mailing list archives,
I would prefer to keep the redirect rather than mod_rewrite.  It
might be good to mention
http://lilypond.org/stable
somewhere (in the CG?), but only with a caution that only that
link can be safely used (i.e. no subdirectories or exact
filenames).

- Graham

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Re: lilypond manual intro

[Graham Percival]

On Sat, Sep 08, 2012 at 06:20:09PM +0100, Trevor Daniels wrote:
 
 Karl Berry wrote Friday, September 07, 2012 11:45 PM
 
  The first example there looks good (and is in fact what I sent her).
  But then the second example, instead of showing how to typeset other
  kinds of notation, goes into \relative.  Is this really the next thing
  people want from a tutorial?  I would have expected to see how to choose
  a different clef or time signature or type of note or ... anything but
  that.
 
 Again, a reasonable point to make, but as pretty well all the following 
 examples are in relative mode and as this is usually the best one for
 beginners to use it seemed best to get this out of the way early, rather
 than teaching absolute entry only to ditch it a few pages later.

Yes.  If anything, I think we should consider making the very
first example \relative.
(I'd also like to have an \absolute keyword so that doc examples
using it could be more explicit, but that would need to wait until
we have a good way to discuss syntax changes)

  On another front: it seems suboptimal to me for that url to embed the
  version number.  It means that when I give out the url, it is basically
  never going to change.  What I really want to give out is the current
  tutorial url, to take advantage of whatever improvements get made.
 
 That's because there are always (at least) two versions of LilyPond
 available - the latest stable with an even number (14, 16) and the
 latest development with an odd number (17).  Best stick with even
 numbers at this stage.  They change quite slowly.

http://lilypond.org/doc/stable/Documentation/learning/index
redirects to
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/learning/index
The same is true of 
http://lilypond.org/doc/stable/

I use the word redirects because I don't know what the correct
apache / .http term is.  The .htaccess contains:

RedirectMatch ^/stable/doc/stable
RedirectMatch ^/doc//*stable/*(.*)$ /doc/v2.16/$1

- Graham

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Re: Markup query

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Sep 06, 2012 at 10:37:37AM +0100, Peter Gentry wrote:
 It is a shame that the manuals do not contain a single source including a 
 precise definition of all the markup options - similar to
 a c++ manual say. 

Notation A.10 is intended to give such a source of definitions.

- Graham

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Re: Markup query

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Sep 06, 2012 at 07:55:32PM +0100, Peter Gentry wrote:
 On Thu, 6 Sep 2012 03:36:40 -0700 Graham Percival wrote
 
  Notation A.10 is intended to give such a source of definitions.
 
 Ah I had downloaded all twelve of the pdf manuals which I routinely search 
 via the Adnaced Search option to find inspiration and or
 confusion.
 
 Notation A.10 is in the html document which doesn't get searched routinely.

It should also be present in notation.pdf.  If it's missing, that
would be a serious bug in our documentation-building system.

 It does have a set of definitions although not all examples cover material in 
 the pdf manuals.

The HTML and pdf documentation should be identical, with one minor
difference in the beginning of Learning when it talks about
clickable examples for html.  If you see any other difference,
it's highly likely to be a bug; please report such problems to the
bug-lilypond mailing list.

- Graham

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Re: update all files with convert.ly

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Sep 05, 2012 at 09:52:47PM +, David Bobroff wrote:
 I seem to remember that convert-ly used to, or used to have an option,
 to descend into sub-directories.  Am I mistaken?

You're mistaken; convert-ly only applies to a single file.  You're
probably thinking of somebody's wrapper shell script fro
convert-ly, since there have been a bunch of those posted to this
mailing list over the years.

- Graham

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Re: Some problems in the docs, as encountered by a beginner

[Graham Percival]

On Tue, Sep 04, 2012 at 05:27:46PM +, Neil Sands wrote:
 I hope this is the right place to point out some errors in the LilyPond 
 Learning 
 Manual.

Thanks for the feedback!  Normally this would go to the
bug-lilypond mailing list, which I've CC'd.

 1. http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/learning/building-a-score-from-
 scratch
 
 On this page, in the variable called 'ManualTwoMusic', we see the text 'e8~ 
 ees16', which seems to mean an E tied to an E flat. A warning about an 
 unterminated tie is given during the compilation process, and the score that 
 results (and the example score in the docs) both show an E natural followed 
 by 
 an E flat at that point. So I think the tilde symbol ~ for the tie is just 
 wrong 
 here.

Yes, that looks like a typo.

 2. http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/learning/fixing-overlapping-
 notation
 
 In a few places on this page, we see this sort of thing:
 '{ e''8 e'' e'' e''  e'' e'' e'' e''  f''2 g'' }'
 when in the example score in the docs, we see a row of Es all in the same 
 octave. When you compile the code given above, it puts each note up two 
 octaves 
 in relation to the last. The examples on this page are full of this kind of 
 thing.

Hmm.  Most examples use \relative c' as stated here:
http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/learning/omitted-material
however, some examples use absolute note names.  By default, if
you write

{ c'4 }
then it will be interpreted as written with absolute note names.

I personally wish that we had explicit \absolute{} for such cases,
but it will be tricky to figure out exactly what to do about this.

 3. http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/learning/style-sheets
 
 In the code immediately under this text...
 'Let’s copy the current ‘definitions.ily’ to ‘web-publish.ily’ and modify 
 that. 
 Since this music is aimed at producing a pdf which will be displayed on the 
 screen, we’ll also increase the overall size of the output.'
 ... the first line of code has the comment '%%%  definitions.ily', when 
 actually 
 it should be '%%% web-publish.ily' (as that's the name of the file people 
 following the text have been instructed to edit).

That looks like the correct fix.

 4. http://lilypond.org/doc/v2.16/Documentation/learning/other-sources-of-
 information
 
 In the GNU/Linux information, the path name 
 INSTALLDIR/lilypond/usr/share/lilypond/current/ is given. In fact, it should 
 begin INSTALLDIR/LilyPond/... (i.e. LilyPond in mixed case).

Hmm, are you sure?  On my system, I see /lilypond/
gperciva@kuro:~
$ ls .usr/lilypond/usr/
bin  etc  lib  share  var

Do you have it installed in /usr/local/ ?  maybe it uses that
capitalization when in /usr/local/ but not when it's in a
different directory?

- Graham

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Re: Lilypond 2.16.0 released!

[Graham Percival]

Please send such questions to lilypond-user; hopefully somebody
can help you with this and if you have a bug it can get to
bug-lilypond.

- Graham

On Mon, Aug 27, 2012 at 10:18:40AM -0500, Fredric Dannen wrote:
 
 Graham,
  
 I'm having a problem with 2.16 that may have a simple solution, and perhaps 
 you
 can advise me. All of my self-produced scores are in 2.14. But even when I use
 the convert-ly -e *.ly function, 2.16 will not open any of them. Based on the
 log files, it appears to be a case of outmoded syntax, for which 2.14 was
 tolerant, but 2.16 is not. I can't figure it out. Is this a known issue, and 
 is
 there a solution?
  
 Many thanks,
 Fred

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Re: Lilypond 2.16.0 released!

[Graham Percival]

On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 11:15:13AM +0200, Hans Aberg wrote:
 This page says MacOS X 10.7 Lion is not yet supported, but the Intel 
 version GUI works on 10.7.4, and for the LilyPond PPC version, it will never 
 be supported as 10.7 cannot run it (10.6 could run it via the Rosetta 
 emulator, but it is not available on 10.7).
   http://lilypond.org/macos-x.html

Thanks for the report, this was added as
  http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2774

- Graham

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[servera...@gmail.com: A Letter from a Turkish Composer and LilyPond user...]

[Graham Percival]

I always love hearing about people using lilypond, especially when
there's some sheet music or videos to watch.  Here's a nice story
of LilyPond use.

He's also made some nice instructional videos about
lilypond+Frescobaldi.  It would be neat if somebody translated
those into English, or French, or any other languages.  I'm not
eager to be hosting videos ourselves, but we could embed youtube
videos into a web page in Introduction-videos.

- Graham


- Forwarded message from Server Acim servera...@gmail.com -

Date: Mon, 13 Aug 2012 00:45:33 +0300
From: Server Acim servera...@gmail.com
To: Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca
Subject: A Letter from a Turkish Composer and LilyPond user...

Dear Graham Percival,
Hello.

I am a composer, Linux Mint User and GNU/LilyPond user.
I am also a music teacher at the Inonu University-State Conservatory,
Malatya, TURKEY.
I am also the Head Director of State Conservatory.

I am a volunteer about promoting my students to use GNU/LilyPond. I am
giving a lesson that is titled as Free and Open Source Music Softwares and
Operation Systems to the students who they are taking lesson at the first
year of Masters Degree of Music. This lessons go on for two semesters and
contain the topics like  Free Software Philosophy, Linux Story, Linus OS,
Music Softwares in Linux and then GNU/LilyPond and Frescobaldi editor.

I also prepared a web page for my students that includes information and
some videos about GNU/LilyPond and Frescobaldi editor. Here are some links:
http://acim.name.tr/lilypond/2012/index.html
http://acim.name.tr/lilypond/2012/videos.html

And as a composer I typeset my work with GNU/LilyPond and here you can see
and download the score of my work:
http://archive.org/details/DUALITY_318

And this work is performed by my friends at the US. Here is the video in
YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZCQYrBQRxw

The goal of this mail is to let you know that there is a Turkish composer
who uses Gnu/LilyPond with a great love and passion.

With my respects.

Bye.


-- 
Server ACİM
- Besteci (Composer)
- İnönü Üniversitesi Devlet Konservatuvarı Öğretim Uyesi (University
Academic Staff)
- Linux kullanicisi, katkicisi ve destekcisi (Linux user, contributor and
supporter)
http://about.me/server.acim
http://acim.name.tr

- End forwarded message -

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Re: Waltrop meeting outline

[Graham Percival]

On Sun, Aug 19, 2012 at 03:02:29PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 
 The schedule would focus on stable release work and criteria on Friday,
 with the goal of getting most participants hands-on experience or at
 least exposure to GUB work.  Coursework goal is the release of 2.16, and
 getting the computing facilities up and running.

I'll reboot my university desktop into 10.04 so that we can build
releases on it.  I'll also bring a USB stick with the GUB repo and
all downloaded source files for GUB so that we don't need to
download 750 megs, for anybody who wants to try GUB on their own
laptops.

I assume that you have wifi?  and will get a VGA projector for at
least Friday, Saturday, and Sunday?

- Graham

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Re: \include in a .ly file included in a LilyPond-Book document (.lytex)

[Graham Percival]

On Mon, Aug 20, 2012 at 12:27:35AM +0200, Jakub Pavlík wrote:
 it seems behavior of lilypond-book concerning .ly files including other .ly
 files changed between 2.14.2 and 2.15.42:

Yes, I think this was done in 2.15.24.  See issue 2104 in the
tracker.  It's deliberate.

- Graham

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Re: Paralellizing Lilypond [was: Re: Sibelius Software UK office shutsdown]

[Graham Percival]

On Sat, Aug 11, 2012 at 01:21:27PM +0100, Joseph Rushton Wakeling wrote:
 ... but I think it emphasizes my real point: this puts the onus on
 the user to split up a project into independently-compilable units.
 I think that it's worth having Lilypond try and automatically
 identify independent units, which could have knock-on benefits in
 terms of minimizing rebuild times for scores.

Even though this phrase has gone out of favor, it was really
common 5-10 years ago on the lilypond mailing lists, and I think
it's appropriate: Patches appreciated.

- Graham

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Re: LilyPond developeruser meeting in Waltrop, August 24th to 28th

[Graham Percival]

On Mon, Aug 06, 2012 at 02:13:06PM +0200, Janek Warchoł wrote:
 On Thu, Aug 2, 2012 at 6:13 PM, Joseph Rushton Wakeling
 joseph.wakel...@webdrake.net wrote:
  Just a suggestion, but given the recent news regarding Sibelius (cf.
  discussion on User list), why not drop a line to a couple of the main
  MuseScore developers and as them if they'd like to come along?
 
  It would be a nice outreach gesture and might lead to some productive
  discussions.
 
 Good idea.  I can write an email to them - is anyone opposed?

Talk to musescore developers?  Sure, if you want.

- Graham

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Re: yay! for lilypond 2.15

[Graham Percival]

On Sat, Aug 04, 2012 at 04:06:10PM +0200, Stefaan Himpe wrote:
 
 I've written two tutorials on how I calculated the music (including
 the lilypond code, which I'm sure can be improved!) which can be
 read in [1] and [2].
 [1] 
 http://a-touch-of-music.blogspot.be/2012/07/tutorial-on-my-technique-for-writing.html
 [2] 
 http://a-touch-of-music.blogspot.be/2012/07/explanation-about-technique-used-in.html
 [3] http://soundcloud.com/stefaanhimpe/5-part-canon
 [4] http://soundcloud.com/stefaanhimpe/6-part-invention

Thanks for posting these!  It's always neat to see what people are
doing with lilypond.

- Graham

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Re: New issue of The LilyPond Report!

[Graham Percival]

On Fri, Aug 03, 2012 at 11:36:53AM +, Valentin Villenave wrote:
 PS. Graham, is that enough for you? :-)

I don't see a patch in staging which announces this on
lilypond.org, so... no?

- Graham

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Re: GOP2-2b - Stable 2.16.x releases (dictator) (probable decision)

[Graham Percival]

On Fri, Aug 03, 2012 at 07:42:34PM +0200, John Mandereau wrote:
 Il giorno mer, 01/08/2012 alle 20.51 +0100, Graham Percival ha scritto:
  I was particularly thinking of the download links and links to
  docs (on both the Downloads page and the Development page).  That
  needs to do build number - python - texinfo macros - html.  But
  at least it's fully debuggable just with make website, without
  bringing in the hour of a normal make doc.
 
 Oh, I see.  I thought the scripts building this (e.g.
 scripts/build/create-weblinks-itexi.py) were already looking for actual
 release numbers instead of assuming 1.

That's the issue.  Those scripts get the normal triple from
VERSION, but the release number requires an http connection.
However, we of course don't want to require that the build system
has http, so a graceful fall-back to 1 is required.

  I'm not sure offhand how to get the build number, since we don't
  put it into VERSION.  Maybe check the http directory and grab the
  filename if there's an internet connection, or else not default to
  -1 ?
 
 As for make doc, could GUB set up an environment variable?

For the build number?  Probably, but it's been a long time since I
looked at that code and I'm not volunteering to look at it again.

 As for make website, we could use something similar to what
 was used for the old website on a separate Git branch.

I'd rather keep it on the same branch.  If there's an http
connection, then presumably python has a nice way to get a
directory list of the relevant download directory, and one you
have a list of files it should be simple to find the files with
the same version and increment the release number.

It's a pain, but at least each step is relatively simple.  It just
takes work (maybe two hours?), for relatively little gain.

  ok, I suppose we could just not bother with this, then.
 
 It appears from this discussion that this issue is not so urgent,

Yep.  It might serve as a good introduction to this stuff if
somebody wants to start learning about the build system.

 http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=1004
 
 Please correct me if my comment there is wrong.

It looks correct (although I'd rather not hard-code anything for
lilypond.org; an http request to itself shouldn't be any harm).

- Graham

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Re: Sibelius Software UK office shuts down

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Aug 02, 2012 at 06:22:49PM +0200, m...@apollinemike.com wrote:
 On 2 août 2012, at 18:18, Lucas Gonze wrote:
 
  Is it architecturally possible to make a significant amount of
  overhead go away? Are incremental compiles plausible?
 
 It is very difficult.  It's better to use a front-end editor
 that shows some sorta mock-up of the score and that only
 compiles the nice LilyPond version from time to time (if this
 exists).  Getting an actual LilyPond score requires calculating
 line breaks and there's no way to get rid of the overhead.

Sure there is.  Compile each bar individually with the default
spacing (i.e. whatever you get if your entire score is one bar and
you use ragged-right=##t).  The concatenate bars until the sum is
larger than the allowable line-width, at which point you put the
bar on the next line.

It'll be completely ugly (ragged score lines?  even finale doesn't
do that!), but it eliminates the overhead of line breaks.  Then
the question is what trade-offs of speed for beauty you want to
make.  I mean, a slightly less invasive/drastic speed-up would be
to have the user hard-code 4 bars per line.  That's also ugly, but
not as bad as the previous option.


In short: if there is a concerted effort to create a quick
render output, I would be absolutely shocked if it wasn't at
least 10 times faster than the current output.  Kill line breaks,
draw slurs as rectangles, place noteheads on a strict timing grid
instead of optical spacing... there's a lot of beautiful things
that lilypond does which uses CPU resources.

 As for the svg, significant improvement can be made in the speed
 of LilyPond's svg export - contributions are certainly welcome
 in this area.  The backend is very well written but it is all in
 Scheme

The compiled scheme in guile 2.0 could help here.  So if anybody
feels like picking up the porting-to-guile2.0 work...

- Graham

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Re: GOP2-2b - Stable 2.16.x releases (dictator) (probable decision)

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 12:31:55PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 
 At the time the 2.16 branch will be cut, the versioning for the unstable
 branch will need to advance to 2.17 in order to maintain an ordered
 relation between version numbers and LilyPond language.

Do you mean 2.16 instead of 2.17 ?

 What versioning should I be using for the release
 candidates?  Numerically, one has the options to start with

 2.15.95

why not 2.15.42 ?  I'm not planning on making any devel releases
until 2.16.0 is out, but even if I were, I'd start at 2.17.0.

 or with
 
 2.16.0.95

I don't think that GUB supports this.  There are hints in the code
that such support was desired at some point, but I seriously doubt
that it would work.  In fact, I'm not even certain if the normal
build system and docs can handle such numbers (thinking about the
website generation in particular).

 The disadvantage of the former is that we'll want to run all the version
 updating procedures at the moment we split into a 2.17 and a 2.16
 branch.  If anybody has relevant input on that, this will be welcome.

oh, I get it now.  Yes, if a user has a score with \version
2.16.0, they should expect convert-ly for version 2.17.2 to
handle it correctly.  hmm... actually, I don't there's a problem
here.  Provided that you don't change the syntax between current
git and 2.16.0, then I don't see a problem having a 2.17.0 release
while you're still working on 2.15.43 or 2.15.44.

... still, I think the easiest thing is not to have devel releases
until 2.16.0 is out.

 One of the reasons to release a stable release is to get the benefits
 and excitement to it about users and distributors.  For that reason, I
 would like to have the LSR updated.

Before 2.16.0?  I don't see that happening.  Get 2.16.0 out first,
have some rounds of testing leading to 2.16.1 and 2.16.2, and
*then* start trying to recruit somebody to handle the LSR update
and coordinate with Sebastiano.

 Since it is supposed to be a
 resource helpful to average users, that would mean that for a while,
 optimally two versions should be available in parallel, one for 2.14,
 one for 2.16.  At first the 2.16 version just as a beta or something,
 later the 2.14 as a fallback or so.
 
 I have no idea how feasible this would be, but if we manage to
 eventually get to a reasonable stable release schedule, the usefulness
 of this resource would be increased by supporting more than just one
 stable release.

Not feasible, although patches appreciated.  Source code for LSR
is available; it's written in java.  Instead of patches, you could
rewrite the entire system in a different language.  Both options
have been discussed on -devel, starting from about 4 years ago I
think?  Latest one was within the past 6 months, or maybe 12?

- Graham

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Re: GOP2-2b - Stable 2.16.x releases (dictator) (probable decision)

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 02:37:58PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes:
 
  What versioning should I be using for the release
  candidates?  Numerically, one has the options to start with
 
  2.15.95
 
  why not 2.15.42 ?
 
 Because the 2.16 branch is supposed to produce the versions for
 prereleases of GNU/Linux distributions.  We won't be able to sell it for
 that purpose using 2.15.42 as a number.  And anyway, 2.15.42 is already
 taken for the next _unstable_ release.

I'm not certain what you mean by prereleases of GNU/Linux
distributions.  If 2.16.0 is not out, then distributions like
Ubuntu or Redhat shouldn't be touching 2.15.x.

  2.16.0.95
 
  I don't think that GUB supports this.  There are hints in the code
 
 It would make sense to put this under scrutiny.  There is support for it
 in our VERSION file and several Makefiles, it has been used in the past.

past being about 10 years ago.

 If it is non-operative, it should be either made operative or removed.
 There is no point dragging it along as purely dead weight we should not
 be using.

Sure, patches appreciated.
Initial wild guess: 20 hours to fix stuff in lilypond git, and 20
hours to fix stuff in GUB.  Not counting the time it takes you to
find a computer that can actually compile GUB.

  ... still, I think the easiest thing is not to have devel releases
  until 2.16.0 is out.
 
 A prerelease is not a devel release.  2.15.42 has had 56 issues so far
 in 3 weeks.  The stabilizing phase of branch 2.16 will take several
 weeks at least, or the stable label will be a mockery.

Yes, this is tricky.

 By the time we release 2.17.0, I want to have a version of the 2.16
 branch out that is clearly recognizable as different from the 2.15
 releases so far, even if it is not the final stable release.

I'm missing something.  What's wrong with this scenario:
- I release 2.15.42 today or tomorrow.
- you branch stable/2.16 from that.
- in a week I release 2.17.0.
- you do whatever you want with 2.15.43, 2.15.44, etc, until you
  reach 2.16.0.  Other than probably having no syntax changes
  because I really don't know how that can be juggled.

 2.15.95 would presumably protest against snippets already being at
 2.16.0.

The final change of version numbers it the last thing we've done
in the past, and just tested on my local machine with make doc.

 Complicated.

There's a bunch of notes in the CG releases chapter.  But be
warned that they're mostly out of date and therefore probably
misleading.

Still, it might give some clues that might be helpful.

- Graham

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Re: GOP2-2b - Stable 2.16.x releases (dictator) (probable decision)

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 03:21:34PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes:
 
  If it is non-operative, it should be either made operative or removed.
  There is no point dragging it along as purely dead weight we should not
  be using.
 
  Sure, patches appreciated.
 
 You know that this comes across as In my opinion nobody but the foolish
 person asking for this should think of working on that problem.?  I am
 staking out the requirements I need to get the appointed job done.
 Unless you have some reasonable suggestions how to get around those
 requirements, I see little point in discouraging others from helping
 with them.

I apologize; you are quite correct.


  I'm missing something.  What's wrong with this scenario: - I
  release 2.15.42 today or tomorrow.  - you branch stable/2.16
  from that.  - in a week I release 2.17.0.  - you do whatever
  you want with 2.15.43, 2.15.44, etc, until you reach 2.16.0.
  Other than probably having no syntax changes because I really
  don't know how that can be juggled.
 
 There will be no syntax changes in the 2.16 branch, at least not
 of the convert-ly kind (one reasonably established syntax to a
 different intended one).

Shall I go ahead and do 2.15.42, then?

  2.15.95 would presumably protest against snippets already
  being at 2.16.0.
 
  The final change of version numbers it the last thing we've
  done in the past, and just tested on my local machine with
  make doc.
 
 Hm.  At any rate, it seems strange to have 2.17.0 released and
 no recognizable disruption in the 2.15 release series while 2.16
 is not finished.

Well... I agree that it's a sub-optimal situation.  But this is
the least disruptive (in terms of development) and least
resource-intensive (in terms of fighting with build systems)
manner I can think of.  I think we can live with a bit of
strangeness.

If we had experts actively maintaining our build system and GUB
(people such as Jan, John, or Julien [1]), I would be much more
interested in discussing ideal policies for users and developers.
Or even if we had no experts but I had time and interest to fight
with GUB.  However, at the present time we lack either experts or
non-experts with excessive interest in GUB.  So I reluctantly
recommend that you optimize the 2.16 policies for a lack of build
system changes.  If the situation changes (say, Julien finishes
university and gets sponsored to work on lilypond full-time, or
you get a computer capable of compiling GUB), then of course I
would withdraw that unpleasant recommendation.

[1] I would have added your name to the list, but it doesn't begin
with a J in alphabetical order of chronological order of working
on the build system.

- Graham

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Re: GOP2-2b - Stable 2.16.x releases (dictator) (probable decision)

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 04:15:34PM +0200, John Mandereau wrote:
 I'm sometimes slow to react (up to one week for making a patch), but I'm
 willing to help with version number management in the build system if
 this definitely appears to be the route to go with.

Regardless of the question of having a tuple of four values, it
would be nice to support build numbers, i.e. 2.15.43-2:
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=977

This definitely requires work in both lilypond git and GUB git.

- Graham

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Re: GOP2-2b - Stable 2.16.x releases (dictator) (probable decision)

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 06:36:14PM +0200, John Mandereau wrote:
 Il giorno mer, 01/08/2012 alle 15.52 +0100, Graham Percival ha scritto:
  Regardless of the question of having a tuple of four values, it
  would be nice to support build numbers, i.e. 2.15.43-2:
  http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=977
  
  This definitely requires work in both lilypond git and GUB git.
 
 I'm confident we don't want to add support for tuples of four values or
 release tags in convert-ly, but website generation and docs generation
 (Texinfo macros and HTML footers) need work.  Do you prefer that I spend
 effort on building GUB for the coming week or rather make patches on
 lilypond.git only?

Hmm.  I can't answer this directly, but I'll pass along my
considerations:

- if you try to compile GUB on debian unstable (or any other
  recent distro), you will likely encounter odd compile failures.
  These are important to fix at some point in time (otherwise we'd
  be stuck GUB on ubuntu 10.04 only), and require a great deal of
  knowledge of compilers and searching for solutions online.
  OTOH, it might just work out of the box in which case it'll
  just take 6-12 hours and then be working.
- I think that supporting build numbers will be an easier
  introduction to version number handling in GUB and our docs than
  jumping straight into 4-tuples.  The first step is to make it
  work in make website, which is infinitely easier than trying
  to do anything in GUB.  This is a relatively easy thing to fix,
  so it might make sense to leave it for a relative beginner...
  OTOH, the bug has existed for two years, so might as well tackle
  it now.  Also, David is quite likely to want to use build
  numbers if they are available.
  (whereas I'm happy to say screw users or screw version
  numbers and either not bother updating with -2 if there's a
  serious problem, or else bump to .x+1 one day after a .x
  release; neither of those options are particularly ideal for a
  stable branch)


- Graham

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Re: GOP2-2b - Stable 2.16.x releases (dictator) (probable decision)

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 08:10:26PM +0200, John Mandereau wrote:
 Il giorno mer, 01/08/2012 alle 18.08 +0100, Graham Percival ha scritto:
  The first step is to make it
work in make website, which is infinitely easier than trying
to do anything in GUB.  This is a relatively easy thing to fix,
so it might make sense to leave it for a relative beginner...
OTOH, the bug has existed for two years, so might as well tackle
it now.
 
 I guess that if we want the release number in make website, we want it
 in HTML footers and manuals, don't we?

I was particularly thinking of the download links and links to
docs (on both the Downloads page and the Development page).  That
needs to do build number - python - texinfo macros - html.  But
at least it's fully debuggable just with make website, without
bringing in the hour of a normal make doc.

I'm not sure offhand how to get the build number, since we don't
put it into VERSION.  Maybe check the http directory and grab the
filename if there's an internet connection, or else not default to
-1 ?

 IMHO patch level numbers are cheap, as it doesn't often happen to
 release twice within two or three days.

ok, I suppose we could just not bother with this, then.

- Graham

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Re: Enc2ly: converter from Encore to Lilypond (GPLv3+)

[Graham Percival]

On Sat, Jul 28, 2012 at 10:35:08PM +, Felipe Castro wrote:
 I have written a little program to convert from that infamous format, Encore, 
 so 
 that I may use many scores available on the web, without much effort to 
 retype 
 everything in lilypond.
 
 Here it is:
 http://enc2ly.sourceforge.net/en/

Thanks for writing it and letting us know about it!  I've added a
request to have this added to our easier editing webpage:
http://code.google.com/p/lilypond/issues/detail?id=2706

Cheers,
- Graham

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Re: Dealing with Deprecation (Was Re: Vertical spacing: Was between-system-space deprecated?)

[Graham Percival]

On Sun, Jul 29, 2012 at 04:25:54PM -0500, ivan.k.kuznet...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Does such a large revision of syntax where keywords are deprecated
 happen often?  How do people who have large collections of lilypond
 scores deal with this?

This is indeed a problem.  The developers are currently discussing
a proposal to define certain portions of the input as stable
(not changing) in order to lessen this problem.  However, that
solution is years away from stabilizing things like vertical
spacing.

Past discussion here:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-devel/2012-07/msg00639.html
Updated proposal:
http://lilypond.org/~graham/gop/gop_4.html
(just sent to the -devel list a few minutes ago)

- Graham

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Re: Lilypond syntax

[Graham Percival]

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 01:01:01PM -0500, Tim McNamara wrote:
 Some weeks back there was some discussion of the Lilypond
 syntax, I made some suggestions and was asked to write up a
 sample .ly file with the ideas I had in mind.  Basically my
 notion was to separate content (notes and chords) from form
 (number of bars, repeats, codas, rehearsal marks, etc.) in how
 things are coded into .ly files.  I've been playing around with
 that some and here is a sample .ly file with some of those
 ideas.  They may be terrible ideas, they may be impractical,
 they might require a total rewrite of Lilypond to implement,
 etc.  I think like a musician, not a programmer, after all.  To
 me the form is the container of the music and it makes sense to
 specify the form first and then place the music within it.
 Others may see this very differently.

I like the general idea, but I have a feeling that most of this is
already possible if you use a \global variable or \applyOutput or
\applyContext or something like that.  I know that you are not a
programmer, but you might find it worthwhile to look into the
scheme side of lilypond.  There are also some frameworks like
Reinhold's orchestrallily which do some of this:
http://wiki.kainhofer.com/lilypond/orchestrallily

Also, please don't send copyrighted material to the mailing list.
Your ideas could have been demonstrated with something like

form = {
  verse 1 = 4 bars
  chorus = 4 bars
}
music = {
  c1 c c c
  d1 d d d
}

obviously in more detail to show everything you had, but still --
there was no need to involve copyrighted material.  Remember that
even if you think that this usage is acceptable by the laws of
your country, other countries have different laws.

- Graham

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Re: LilyPond developeruser meeting in Waltrop, August 24th to 28th

[Graham Percival]

On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 10:40:30PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 
 Location is Waltrop near Dortmund in Germany, date is August 24th to
 28th.  Here is the web site, and the agenda for starters.

 URL:http://news.lilynet.net/?LilyPond-meeting-in-Waltrop

To get the ball rolling, I'm flying in to Dusseldorf airport on
Aug 23, at 19:20.  If anybody else is flying there and wants to
figure out the local transport (trains/bus/underground)
together, I'm happy to wait at the airport for an hour or two so
that we can travel together.

- Graham

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Re: LilyPond developeruser meeting in Waltrop, August 24th to 28th

[Graham Percival]

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 03:35:09PM +0200, Nils wrote:
  On Fri, Jul 20, 2012 at 10:40:30PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
   Location is Waltrop near Dortmund in Germany, date is August 24th to
   28th.  Here is the web site, and the agenda for starters.
  
   URL:http://news.lilynet.net/?LilyPond-meeting-in-Waltrop
 
 Is it possible to just visit for one or two days?

Yes, absolutely!

 I am from Cologne so I would come by car and do not need any space sleep or 
 food etc.

not even lunch?  :)
anyway, sounds great.

 My main reason, besides meet and greet,  for a visit would be to make a small 
 presentation of my graphical Lilypond frontend Laborejo 
 (http://www.laborejo.org) as an aside, if you want that.

That sounds good -- but note that this is in a ranch, presumably
without any data projectors.  So I expect that we'd be clustered
around a single computer, or possibly around a few computers which
are showing the same webpage or pdf files ?

Does anybody know if it's possible to rent a low-quality (say,
640x480) VGA projector for a weekend in Germany for any reasonable
price?  assuming that David has any walls painted white, or maybe
also renting a portable screen?

My vague sense is that most VGA projector rentals would be aimed
at businesses, and would probably be a few hundred euros per day.
That's absolutely not what we want... actually, it might even be
cheaper to find an old VGA projector on ebay or craigslist or
whatever the equivalent is in Germany.


Come to think of it, I might be able to borrow something from my
supervisor at university -- but then I'd need to take it on the
airplane, through airport security, etc.  And it would be quite
big and bulky.

- Graham

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Re: LilyPond developeruser meeting in Waltrop, August 24th to 28th

[Graham Percival]

On Fri, Jul 27, 2012 at 04:52:29PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes:
  Does anybody know if it's possible to rent a low-quality (say,
  640x480) VGA projector for a weekend in Germany for any reasonable
  price?  assuming that David has any walls painted white, or maybe also
  renting a portable screen?
 
 LCD projector is €10/day at the local video rental.  I guess that we'll
 make use of that offer at least on some days.  It is necessary booking
 ahead, though, but that should not be much of a problem.

That low?  Seriously?  wow.  ok, that's covered.

Ok, what else... you've mentioned more people able to roll
releases, which would be a fantastic way to increase our bus
factor.  However, that would require serious horsepower, and
you've only got six (according to the website).  I'm only bringing
my netbook, and I know that your laptop can't handle it.  I
suppose that I could leave my university desktop on and we could
ssh into it (under supervision), but if anybody has a reasonably
powerful desktop computer and doesn't mind bringing it, that would
make the process _much_ easier.  I can bring a CD with the
relevant downloads so that we don't need to download 600 MB+ on
your rural internet connection[1].


[1] which, in the US or Canada, would absolutely suck, but I now
suspect is better than my connection in central Glasgow.

- Graham

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Re: tunefl and other web services

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 07:40:58PM +0200, Janek Warchoł wrote:
 and you can see a nice old/new comparison here:
 http://news.lilynet.net/IMG/gif/clef_comparison.gif).

-snip-
 
 PS concerning the girl, she's pretty indeed, but some of the /priests/
 using Lily might have a problem with that :)

I sometimes skim emails in a non-linear fashion, so I happened to
read the last sentence immediately prior to the first
sentence+url.  Gives a rather different take on the situation.

- Graham

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Re: tunefl and other web services

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Jul 11, 2012 at 12:03:45PM -0700, David Rogers wrote:
 I'm not a priest. However, I still don't like the picture.

I agree.  It reminds me of sleazy 1990s CD-roms selling shareware
sofware.

 I don't think that's the best possible impression Lilypond can
 give.

Fortunately, that website has nothing to do with the LilyPond
project.  Unfortunately, the name (Lilypond cloud music engraving
IDE) suggests that it *is* affiliated with us.

- Graham

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Re: tunefl and other web services

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 05:57:02AM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 Mike Blackstock blackstock.m...@gmail.com writes:
 
  I agree. As I pointed out, the model was meant to personify Aquinas'
  definition of 'beauty' and tie that in with the beauty of Lilypond. We
  disagree on what 'sleaze' is. Not how 'gatekeeper' comes into play and
  as for marketing - well, this is free, and I'm defering to the
  judgment of the Debian Linux ad, as I thought I made clear.
 
 The Debian ad goes to a bit more effort than depicting an arbitrary
 snapshot of a woman in a swimsuit.  And I still don't see them pulling
 this off convincingly either.

Wait a moment -- *what* Debian ad?  The 2.bp.blogspot.com image
has the url linu...blogspot.com, which redirects me to some
spam-ish site.  There's no way that's an official Debian
advertisement.

Look folks, anybody can slap some text onto an image.  Back in
2001, I found a set of jpegs of naked girls that somebody had
photoshopped (or gimped) Linux mascots onto.  Those weren't
official linux advertisements; it was obviously just some horny
teenagers who thought it would be cute[1] to slap some Linux
penguins onto chicks.

[1] to be fair, at the time I was in my very early 20s, and I
thought it was funny too.  Also, there was one picture of a girl
in a waterfall that was particularly hot.  I can't remember any
specifics of the images, though.

- Graham

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Re: tunefl and other web services

[Graham Percival]

I don't drink beer.
- Graham

:)


On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 12:40:52AM -0400, Mike Blackstock wrote:
ok,ok, ok - I'll remove the model, you guys win. sigh.
 
It's not a real Debian ad? What a shame, it should be.
 
I'm going for a beer - let's agree on that at least ?
 
;)
 
-Mike
 
 
On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 12:13 AM, Graham Percival
[1]gra...@percival-music.ca wrote:
 
On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 05:57:02AM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 Mike Blackstock [2]blackstock.m...@gmail.com writes:

  I agree. As I pointed out, the model was meant to personify
Aquinas'
  definition of 'beauty' and tie that in with the beauty of Lilypond.
We
  disagree on what 'sleaze' is. Not how 'gatekeeper' comes into play
and
  as for marketing - well, this is free, and I'm defering to the
  judgment of the Debian Linux ad, as I thought I made clear.

 The Debian ad goes to a bit more effort than depicting an arbitrary
 snapshot of a woman in a swimsuit.  And I still don't see them
pulling
 this off convincingly either.
 
  Wait a moment -- *what* Debian ad?  The [3]2.bp.blogspot.com image
  has the url linu...[4]blogspot.com, which redirects me to some
  spam-ish site.  There's no way that's an official Debian
  advertisement.
  Look folks, anybody can slap some text onto an image.  Back in
  2001, I found a set of jpegs of naked girls that somebody had
  photoshopped (or gimped) Linux mascots onto.  Those weren't
  official linux advertisements; it was obviously just some horny
  teenagers who thought it would be cute[1] to slap some Linux
  penguins onto chicks.
  [1] to be fair, at the time I was in my very early 20s, and I
  thought it was funny too.  Also, there was one picture of a girl
  in a waterfall that was particularly hot.  I can't remember any
  specifics of the images, though.
  - Graham
 
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[5]lilypond-user@gnu.org
[6]https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user
 
 References
 
1. mailto:gra...@percival-music.ca
2. mailto:blackstock.m...@gmail.com
3. http://2.bp.blogspot.com/
4. http://blogspot.com/
5. mailto:lilypond-user@gnu.org
6. https://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/lilypond-user

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Re: tunefl and other web services

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 10:11:09AM -0300, Han-Wen Nienhuys wrote:
 On Wed, Jul 4, 2012 at 8:04 PM, Graham Percival
 gra...@percival-music.ca wrote:
  Commercial services are ok, but non-Free software is not.  The GNU
  coding standards are quite clear on this:
 
  A GNU program should not recommend, promote, or grant legitimacy
  to the use of any non-free program. Proprietary software is a
  social and ethical problem, and our aim is to put an end to that
  problem.
  http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/References.html
 
 neither scorio nor tunefl are considered non-free programs, so they
 should be OK. FSF's beef is with restrictive licensing, since
 licensing means you cannot freely copy the software (share with your
 neighbors).

I must be blind, because I can't find any source code on the
scorio website.  I _do_ see apps for the ipad, and I know that due
to Apple's licensing terms, those aren't compatible with the GPL.
Of course, since scorio presumably owns their own source code,
they could be dual-licensing it.

I also can't find source on the tunefl website.  Their legal
page says that they allow third-party companies to track you on
their webiste, and that users shouldn't submit copywritten
material and that the users licenses tunefl.com to use that
material.

I'm not seeing how I can freely copy either of their software.
Granted, this probably gets into the realm of software as a
service, but given that the GPLv3 specifically losed some
loopholes about that, I doubt that GNU would consider non-source
software as a service to be Free software.  I can check, if you
want.

- Graham

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Re: tunefl and other web services

[Graham Percival]

On Thu, Jul 05, 2012 at 03:57:00PM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 Graham Percival gra...@percival-music.ca writes:
 
   A GNU program should not recommend, promote, or grant legitimacy
   to the use of any non-free program. Proprietary software is a
   social and ethical problem, and our aim is to put an end to that
   problem.
   http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/References.html
 
  I must be blind, because I can't find any source code on the
  scorio website.  I _do_ see apps for the ipad, and I know that due
  to Apple's licensing terms, those aren't compatible with the GPL.
 
 The GPLv3 does not address the availability of software used as a
 service: you need to use the Affero GPL for that.
 
 URL:http://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/Freedom-for-Web-Pages.html#Freedom-for-Web-Pages
 states for hosting GNU software:

Hmm.  I think that the GNU coding style guide (above) is more
relevant here, but you have a good point.

 The situation changes immediately if the named sites actually also
 license or sell the software their site is running on.

Scorio sells ipad apps; it's not clear how closely tied those are
to their website software.  But I think this is exactly what
granting legitimacy to the use of any non-free program is
referring to.

You have a stronger point about tunefl.  But I still think the
coding standards are still firmly against it.

- Graham

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Re: tunefl and other web services

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Jul 04, 2012 at 11:29:28AM +0200, Jan Nieuwenhuizen wrote:
 Do we know about http://tunefl.com ?
 
 Also, should we be mentioning commercial services like scorio.com
 on our website?

Commercial services are ok, but non-Free software is not.  The GNU
coding standards are quite clear on this:

A GNU program should not recommend, promote, or grant legitimacy
to the use of any non-free program. Proprietary software is a
social and ethical problem, and our aim is to put an end to that
problem.
http://www.gnu.org/prep/standards/html_node/References.html


This is a bit of a shame, since it's nice advertising to show
how lilypond is used, but I didn't make up the rules, and it's
entirely consistent with GNU's position.

- Graham

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Re: transcribe notes

[Graham Percival]

On Wed, Jun 13, 2012 at 07:25:27AM +0200, David Kastrup wrote:
 While I applaud the magnitude of your conscience, I consider your sense
 of responsibility overblown.  I would have no qualms encouraging people
 into trying to get involved.

That's because you are an excellent programmer, mathematician, and
all-round technical guy who would have no trouble learning git
if you didn't know it already.  I am not -- at best I'd say that
I'm a good programmer, almost competent mathematician, and
passable technical guy.  So I have a great deal of empathy for
people who have difficulty with those.

More to the point, I have experience mentoring over 20 people for
lilypond doc work.  I *know* that people find it difficult.  I
know that people find it difficult even when somebody else takes
care of all the git stuff for them!  If you want me to listen to
anybody who says oh, there's some friction, but just tell them to
jump in, then mentor at least 5 people who stick around for at
least 3 months.

 Now if things are as bad as to make 80% give up eventually, it
 means that 20% eventually manage to contribute.

At the karma cost of wasting the time and effort of the 80%.
I'm not willing to pay that cost -- especially when we could cut
that in half with 10-20 hours of prep work.

If it was just a general yeah, only 20% of people survive, then
I could roll with that.  But yeah, you only have a 20% chance of
doing anything, but that could be 60% if I could be bothered to
spend a week or two preparing stuff strikes me as immoral.


Or, to put it in a more cold-blooded way: I want to get the
reputation of treating lilypond volunteers well, since that will
encourage more people to volunteer.  By discouraging people from
having a hard time now, I'm gambling on a long-term benefit in
that when the CG is better and we actively recruit volunteers,
more people will step up.

- Graham

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