Re: Key signatures in MIDI output

[Hans Åberg]

> On 10 May 2024, at 22:21, msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 10 May 2024, Hans Åberg wrote:
> 
>>> signature.  The MIDI file does not contain that information; it is up to
>>> whatever software reads the MIDI file, to display it appropriately.
>> 
>> So to go back to staff notation from MIDI, one must know what enharmonic
>> equivalences that have been applied.
> 
> Yes - and it's not Lilypond that does that step, so if the translation
> back to staff notation is not as desired, there's little that can be done
> within Lilypond to fix it.

On traditional meantone keyboards with 12 keys per octave, a common way to 
chose the notes are, expressed in iterated fifths:
  E♭ B♭ F C G D A E B F♯ C♯ G♯

One could indicate a note, like A, and from that, get 6 fifths down and 5 
fifths up.

Re: Key signatures in MIDI output

[Hans Åberg]

> On 10 May 2024, at 21:50, msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 10 May 2024, Hans Åberg wrote:
> 
>> Programs like ABC work so that one writes the music without accidentals,
>> and then apply a key signature to get them. It was my reading that the
>> OP asked for that.
> 
> Okay.  I didn't read it that way because the OP said he was getting
> correct output in the PDF, and if he'd misunderstood the input format in
> the way you describe, then the PDF would be wrong too.
> 
> But something else that occurred to me is that there may be a further
> misunderstanding of MIDI format in play here:  MIDI never contains
> "accidentals" at all.  It only contains note numbers.

MIDI is based on E12, the 12-equal tone system. The staff notation, as used in 
LilyPond, is originally based on Pythagorean tuning, without enharmonic 
equivalences, which must be applied for the MIDI output.

>  In my example code:
> 
> \score {
>  \new Voice {
>\key c \major
>c'4 d'4 e'4 f'4 |
>\key d \minor
>bes4 a4 g4 f4 |
>  }
>  \layout { }
>  \midi { }
> }
> 
> The MIDI output will contain roughly this information:
> 
> key change, C major
> note 60
> note 62
> note 64
> note 65
> key change, D minor
> note 58
> note 57
> note 55
> note 53
> 
> If some other software, reading the MIDI file, displays these as notes
> with or without accidentals, and does or doesn't make the key-change
> events visible, then that has very little to do with Lilypond, which only
> generates the above data.  Note 60, for instance, might be a C or a
> B-sharp.  Even if it is B-sharp, it might be displayed with or without a
> sharp sign depending on whether there is one in the displayed key
> signature.  The MIDI file does not contain that information; it is up to
> whatever software reads the MIDI file, to display it appropriately.

So to go back to staff notation from MIDI, one must know what enharmonic 
equivalences that have been applied.

Re: Key signatures in MIDI output

[Hans Åberg]

> On 10 May 2024, at 20:18, msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca wrote:
> 
> On Fri, 10 May 2024, Hans Åberg wrote:
> 
>> To change the MIDI output, you will need to change the notes, say by
>> transposing or something else.
> 
> MIDI files can include events ("key-change meta messages") for key
> signatures, each specifying a root and whether it's major or minor (which
> actually makes them more expressive than standard notation which can't
> distinguish, for instance, between C major and A minor).  Lilypond
> generates these events in the MIDI files on each key change in my
> installation.  If Giles's installation appears not to, I wonder whether
> that may be due to an issue with the software he's using to examine the
> MIDI files.
> 
> For instance, this input produces a MIDI file with key-change events at
> the indicated places:
> 
> \score {
>  \new Voice {
>\key c \major
>c'4 d'4 e'4 f'4 |
>\key d \minor
>bes4 a4 g4 f4 |
>  }
>  \layout { }
>  \midi { }
> }

Programs like ABC work so that one writes the music without accidentals, and 
then apply a key signature to get them. It was my reading that the OP asked for 
that.

Re: Key signatures in MIDI output

[Hans Åberg]

> On 10 May 2024, at 16:26, Giles Boardman  wrote:
> 
> I am reading that I can create MIDI output which is different from the 
> printed output. For example, I can unfold repeats in the midi output but use 
> alternative endings and double barlines in my score. Awesome!
> 
> So, I tried it and I notice that my MIDI output doesn't reflect the key 
> signatures (everything is in C with accidentals) while my on-screen preview 
> (even when I only have a midi block and no layout block) and the .pdf have 
> sharps and flats at the beginning of the staff.
> 
> The snippet about midi output in the documentation show the key signature as 
> written in the example, but as mentioned, that doesn't mean it has made it 
> into the MIDI file. Before I troubleshoot further, can anyone confirm what I 
> should expect, please?

The signatures are only a notational convenience to simplify reading; 
traditionally, they do not indicate even the key, even though "key signature" 
somehow got popular in English.

To change the MIDI output, you will need to change the notes, say by 
transposing or something else.

Re: nested beaming

[Hans Åberg]

> On 11 Apr 2024, at 17:14, Carl Sorensen  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Apr 11, 2024 at 6:44 AM Hans Åberg  wrote:
>> 
>> > On 10 Apr 2024, at 16:54, Carl Sorensen  wrote:
>> > 
>> > On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 10:23 AM Hans Åberg  wrote:
>> > 
>> >> In the past, it was possible to give 9/16 the beat structure [[2 2] [2 
>> >> 3]], as a 2/4 with an extra 1/16 at the end, like in the Bulgarian 
>> >> Daichovo, but currently it is only possible with [4 2 3] as in:
>> >>  \time 9/16
>> >>  \set beatStructure = #'(4 2 3)
>> >> Or [2 2 2 3]. But [[2 2] [2 3]] is easier to read.
>> >> 
>> > Can you tell me a version where you could do this, and provide some sample 
>> > code that uses it?
>> 
>> I have an old comment in a .ly file that I once wrote, but it does not tell 
>> the LilyPond version it was usable in, as the file has been updated:
>> 
>>   \tempo 4 = 120
>>   \time 11/16
>>   \set beatStructure = #'(4 3 4)
>> 
>> %  Old beam settings:
>> %  \overrideBeamSettings #'Score #'(11 . 16) #'end #'((* . (4 3 4)))
>> %  \set beatGrouping = #'(2 2 3 2 2)
>> %  \set subdivideBeams = ##t
>> %  #(override-auto-beam-setting '(end * * 11 16) 4 16)
>> %  #(override-auto-beam-setting '(end * * 11 16) 7 16)
>> %  #(set-time-signature 11 16 '(4 3 4))
>> 
> Thank you for this file.  This syntax makes sense to me (but I haven't 
> verified that it still works).  I have never known the nested square brackets 
> for nested beams as an input syntax to work.
> 
> I'll do some more investigation.

This link says override-auto-beam-setting got removed probably in LilyPond 2.13.

https://github.com/nsceaux/nenuvar/issues/7

Re: nested beaming

[Hans Åberg]

> On 10 Apr 2024, at 23:29, Carl Sorensen  wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 2:02 PM Hans Åberg  wrote:
>> 
>> There is actually one example of a naturally occurring meter, meaning it is 
>> used regularly, where such a sub-beaming might be useful, namely, a form of 
>> the Čoček in 9/8, 9 = 2+2+2+3, where 3 = 1+2. I wrote it as 2+2+2+1+2, but 
>> it would be nice to write it as 2+2+2+(1+2).
>> 
>> If I write
>>   \time 9/8
>>   \set beatStructure = 2,2,2,3
>>   \set subdivideBeams = ##t
>> then it ends up with all 2 = 1+1, and 3 = 1+1+1.
>> 
>> So such examples may occur even if there is not a composer trying to do 
>> something special.
> 
> So in the following, I think I get what you call 2+2+2+3, but unfortunately I 
> don't get 3 = 1+2.  Do you agree with this statement?
> 
> I have made it a little better, because the 2 are all 2, but the three is 
> just 3 (not 1+2)
> 
> \version "2.25.11"
> {
>\time 9/8
>\set beatStructure =  #'(2 2 2 3)
>\set subdivideBeams = ##t
>\set minimumBeamSubdivisionInterval = \musicLength 4
>\repeat unfold 18 a'16
> }

There is also the syntax
  \time 2,2,2,3 9/16
instead of
  \time 9/16
  \set beatStructure = #'(2 2 2 3)

Perhaps it should be extended somehow.

Re: nested beaming

[Hans Åberg]

> On 10 Apr 2024, at 16:54, Carl Sorensen  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 10:23 AM Hans Åberg  wrote:
> 
>> In the past, it was possible to give 9/16 the beat structure [[2 2] [2 3]], 
>> as a 2/4 with an extra 1/16 at the end, like in the Bulgarian Daichovo, but 
>> currently it is only possible with [4 2 3] as in:
>>  \time 9/16
>>  \set beatStructure = #'(4 2 3)
>> Or [2 2 2 3]. But [[2 2] [2 3]] is easier to read.
>> 
> Can you tell me a version where you could do this, and provide some sample 
> code that uses it?

I have an old comment in a .ly file that I once wrote, but it does not tell the 
LilyPond version it was usable in, as the file has been updated:

  \tempo 4 = 120
  \time 11/16
  \set beatStructure = #'(4 3 4)

%  Old beam settings:
%  \overrideBeamSettings #'Score #'(11 . 16) #'end #'((* . (4 3 4)))
%  \set beatGrouping = #'(2 2 3 2 2)
%  \set subdivideBeams = ##t
%  #(override-auto-beam-setting '(end * * 11 16) 4 16)
%  #(override-auto-beam-setting '(end * * 11 16) 7 16)
%  #(set-time-signature 11 16 '(4 3 4))

Re: nested beaming

[Hans Åberg]

> On 10 Apr 2024, at 23:29, Carl Sorensen  wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 2:02 PM Hans Åberg  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> There is actually one example of a naturally occurring meter, meaning it is 
>> used regularly, where such a sub-beaming might be useful, namely, a form of 
>> the Čoček in 9/8, 9 = 2+2+2+3, where 3 = 1+2. I wrote it as 2+2+2+1+2, but 
>> it would be nice to write it as 2+2+2+(1+2).
>> 
>> If I write
>>   \time 9/8
>>   \set beatStructure = 2,2,2,3
>>   \set subdivideBeams = ##t
>> then it ends up with all 2 = 1+1, and 3 = 1+1+1.
>> 
>> So such examples may occur even if there is not a composer trying to do 
>> something special.
>> 
>> So in the following, I think I get what you call 2+2+2+3, but unfortunately 
>> I don't get 3 = 1+2.  Do you agree with this statement?

Correct.

>> I have made it a little better, because the 2 are all 2, but the three is 
>> just 3 (not 1+2)
>> 
>> \version "2.25.11"
>> {
>>\time 9/8
>>\set beatStructure =  #'(2 2 2 3)
>>\set subdivideBeams = ##t
>>\set minimumBeamSubdivisionInterval = \musicLength 4
>>\repeat unfold 18 a'16
>> }

If I write
{
  \time 9/8
  \set beatStructure =  #'(2 2 2 3)
  \set subdivideBeams = ##t
  \set minimumBeamSubdivisionInterval = \musicLength 8
  \repeat unfold 18 a'16
}
then I get the sub-beams, but should only be applied to the last 3, and between 
the first 1/8 and the last 2/8.

Re: nested beaming

[Hans Åberg]

> On 10 Apr 2024, at 20:15, Carl Sorensen  wrote:
> 
> Forwarding to keep on list.
> 
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 11:35 AM Hans Åberg  wrote:
> 
> > On 10 Apr 2024, at 19:00, Carl Sorensen  wrote:
> > 
> > On Wed, Apr 10, 2024 at 10:22 AM Hans Åberg  wrote:
> > 
> > > So is the issue that you would like to have the final [2 3] beamed with a 
> > > pair of beamed 16th notes joined to a trio of beamed sixteenth notes by a 
> > > single beam?
> > 
> > Yes.
> > 
> > This works out of the box now, as 4+5 with subdivisions and 4+3 with 
> > subdivisions
> > 
> > \version "2.25.11"
> > {
> >\time 9/16
> >\set beatStructure =  #'(4 5)
> >\set subdivideBeams = ##t
> >\repeat unfold 9 a'16
> >
> >\time 7/16
> >\set beatStructure = 4,3
> >\repeat unfold 7 a'16
> > }
> 
> This works for the 9=(2+2)+(2+3); I attach a file that compiles, in case you 
> want to check. I need to check the 7/16 later. One could also have the 3 in 
> other places. like 9 = (2+2)+(3+2) or (3+2)+(2+2). They exist in Turkey and 
> Macedonia in slower forms without the sub-beaming, but in theory, it is 
> possible.
> 
> I think that it will not work if you want to subdivide with the 3 in the 
> first position.  I can imagine that there could be some sort of flag that 
> would allow it to work correctly with the 3 in the first position, but that 
> will require some extra development.  If you think it's important, I could 
> ping Jason Yip (who did the new autobeam functionality) to see if he has any 
> ideas about it.

There is actually one example of a naturally occurring meter, meaning it is 
used regularly, where such a sub-beaming might be useful, namely, a form of the 
Čoček in 9/8, 9 = 2+2+2+3, where 3 = 1+2. I wrote it as 2+2+2+1+2, but it would 
be nice to write it as 2+2+2+(1+2).

If I write
  \time 9/8
  \set beatStructure = 2,2,2,3
  \set subdivideBeams = ##t
then it ends up with all 2 = 1+1, and 3 = 1+1+1.

So such examples may occur even if there is not a composer trying to do 
something special.

Re: nested beaming

[Hans Åberg]

> On 10 Apr 2024, at 17:13, Carl Sorensen  wrote:
> 
>> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 10:23 AM Hans Åberg  wrote:
>> 
>>> On 8 Apr 2024, at 18:46, Simon Albrecht  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 08.04.24 18:22, Paul Scott wrote:
>>>> Many years ago I could nest square brackets in Lilypond. How can I write 
>>>> this now incorrect code:
>>>> 
>>>> a16[[ 16 16] 16[ 16 16]]  i.e. two groups of 3 beamed 16th notes joined by 
>>>> a single beam.
>>> 
>>> The question is: what is the context and why do you want this?
>> 
>> In the past, it was possible to give 9/16 the beat structure [[2 2] [2 3]], 
>> as a 2/4 with an extra 1/16 at the end, like in the Bulgarian Daichovo, but 
>> currently it is only possible with [4 2 3] as in:
>> \time 9/16
>> \set beatStructure = #'(4 2 3)
>> Or [2 2 2 3]. But [[2 2] [2 3]] is easier to read.
>> 
>>> Normally, this is called subdividing beams and there is a context property 
>>> to turn it on. This is explained in the NR at Rhythms -> Beams -> Setting 
>>> automatic beam behaviour (or similar). There have recently been significant 
>>> improvements to how LilyPond handles this, but IIRC it’s not fully ‘there’ 
>>> yet and in some situations manual intervention is needed besides defining 
>>> baseMoment etc.
>> 
>> But this has not yet been implemented?
> 
> So is the issue that you would like to have the final [2 3] beamed with a 
> pair of beamed 16th notes joined to a trio of beamed sixteenth notes by a 
> single beam?

Yes.

>  I could see that such a notation might be easy to read, but it violates the 
> mathematical beaming convention since the two subgroups joined by the single 
> beam are not each 1/8 in duration.  I'm not saying this notation is 
> incorrect; I'm just saying that to implement it we would need to bypass the 
> normal convention

The meter is like 2/4 but with one extra 1/16 on the last 1/8 metric sub-accent 
(or sub-beat), so the final [2 3] should be beamed together to properly express 
the relationship: If using 4+2+3, it suggests that the two last metric beats 
are equal. Likewise, (2+2)+(3+2) is a different meter, and 4+5 with no 
sub-beaming on the 5 would not make clear the metric beat structure.

One can do the opposite, take away 1/16 on the last beat, 7 = (2+2)+3, as in 
the Bulgarian rachenitsa. Then I use 7 = 4+3, which looks fine, but it does not 
show the sub-beat in the 4 = 2+2. Using 7 = 2+2+3 would be wrong, because that 
suggests the beats between the last 2 and 3 are about equal.

Re: nested beaming

[Hans Åberg]

> On 10 Apr 2024, at 16:54, Carl Sorensen  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Apr 9, 2024 at 10:23 AM Hans Åberg  wrote:
> 
> In the past, it was possible to give 9/16 the beat structure [[2 2] [2 3]], 
> as a 2/4 with an extra 1/16 at the end, like in the Bulgarian Daichovo, but 
> currently it is only possible with [4 2 3] as in:
>  \time 9/16
>  \set beatStructure = #'(4 2 3)
> Or [2 2 2 3]. But [[2 2] [2 3]] is easier to read.
> 
> Can you tell me a version where you could do this, and provide some sample 
> code that uses it?

It was so long time ago that I do not remember. The new interface is much 
simpler, so I felt it was not a crucial point. One sees sheet music with the 
beaming division 9 = 4+2+3. Bela Bartok used this meter, and it may have that 
latter written meter and beaming.

Re: nested beaming

[Hans Åberg]

> On 8 Apr 2024, at 18:46, Simon Albrecht  wrote:
> 
> On 08.04.24 18:22, Paul Scott wrote:
>> Many years ago I could nest square brackets in Lilypond. How can I write 
>> this now incorrect code:
>> 
>> a16[[ 16 16] 16[ 16 16]]  i.e. two groups of 3 beamed 16th notes joined by a 
>> single beam.
> 
> The question is: what is the context and why do you want this?

In the past, it was possible to give 9/16 the beat structure [[2 2] [2 3]], as 
a 2/4 with an extra 1/16 at the end, like in the Bulgarian Daichovo, but 
currently it is only possible with [4 2 3] as in:
 \time 9/16
 \set beatStructure = #'(4 2 3)
Or [2 2 2 3]. But [[2 2] [2 3]] is easier to read.

> Normally, this is called subdividing beams and there is a context property to 
> turn it on. This is explained in the NR at Rhythms -> Beams -> Setting 
> automatic beam behaviour (or similar). There have recently been significant 
> improvements to how LilyPond handles this, but IIRC it’s not fully ‘there’ 
> yet and in some situations manual intervention is needed besides defining 
> baseMoment etc.

But this has not yet been implemented?

Re: Still failing to operate lilypond 2.20.0 64-bit version.

[Hans Åberg]

> On Oct 19, 2023, at 12:47, Ian West  wrote:
> 
> From the attached photo you will see that I created in 'home'  a folder 
> called 'LilyPondArea', and in that a folder called 'lilypond-2.24.2'. In the 
> former I placed the downloaded tar, and in the latter the unpacked files of 
> lilypond-2.24.2 (i.e. 'bin', etc)

There is a problem if downloaded with a browser, because MacOS marks all 
executables (unix programs) as unknown, and to fix them all one by one is a 
chore. So it is better to use the Terminal:

Open a new Terminal window, type "pwd", it should show your home directory 
path. Then (only type what is after "% ":
% cd LilyPondArea
% curl -L 
"https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/releases/v2.24.2/downloads/lilypond-2.24.2-darwin-x86_64.tar.gz;
 --output lilypond-2.24.2.tar.gz
% tar -xf lilypond-2.24.2-darwin-x86_64.tar.gz
You don't have to type the full name "lilypond……": after a few letter, just 
type  and the shell will complete. The link given to "curl" is what is 
listed on the page https://lilypond.org/download.html. The option -L means to 
redirect to the real link, and --output … is a name that you chose. It is 
simpler to use wget, but the one I have is from MacPorts.

Then, for the LilyPond files, you might create a directory in the Documents 
folder, as if you have iCloud, it gets saved there.

To use the LilyPond program from Terminal, use:
% ~/LilyPondArea/lilypond-2.24.2/bin/lilypond file.ly
or with other options such as --version or --help.

To simplify, you might write a script in Terminal:
% touch lilypond
% open -t lilypond
First command creates a file; the second opens in the text editor chosen for 
.txt files. One can also write:
% open -a TextEdit lilypond
Paste, save and close:
export LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8
export LANG=en_US.UTF-8
exec HOME/LilyPondArea/bin/lilypond "$@"

Here, HOME is the "pwd" path you got above.

Then change permissions, so that any can run it:
% chmod a+x lilypond

Then install it on your system:
% sudo cp lilypond /usr/local/bin
This requires your password to be written.

But now when you want to run lilypond, instead type
% lilypond file.ly

Re: How to define a turn with two accidentals

[Hans Åberg]

> On Oct 12, 2023, at 23:10, Volodymyr Prokopyuk  
> wrote:
> 
> Is it possible to define a turn with two accidentals as shown below?

I think you must design them, say adding another column item to what I use:

mordentsharp = ^\markup \left-align \center-column {
 \musicglyph #"scripts.mordent" \raise #1.0 \tiny\sharp
}

turnlowersharp = ^\markup { \lower #8.0 \left-align \center-column {
  \musicglyph #"scripts.turn" \raise #1.0 \tiny\sharp
}
}

Re: Still failing to operate lilypond 2.20.0 64-bit version.

[Hans Åberg]

> On Oct 7, 2023, at 18:46, Ian West  wrote:
> 
> I can see that it is a complex business constructing a new software package.
> 
> I was under the impression that, on 12 Aug 2022, I downloaded lilypong02.20.0 
> build 20200311175017-darwin-64.tar, unpacked it and ran the package on my 
> 64-bit M2 MacBookAir running Ventura 13.4.1
> It ran successfully (once I had satisfied it that GS was ‘safe’. I used it 
> successfully for a year. 

From what I can see, there is
https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/releases/v2.24.2/downloads/lilypond-2.24.2-darwin-x86_64.tar.gz
listed on the page
https://lilypond.org/download.html

Download it, and unpack it. Probably it can be put anywhere, if compiled with 
relative links.

To use it: 

In Frescobaldi, Preferences, say which one binary to use.

Otherwise, use Terminal, or any other program that calls the binary.

Either call the binary with full or relative (Unix style) path in Terminal, or 
set the environment variable PATH to include its directory "bin", or write a 
script which includes it. The script can be put in /usr/local/bin/ as that is 
included by default in PATH. See what the PATH is say one of
echo $PATH
env

A script named "lilypond" put in say /usr/local/bin/ is a text file that may 
contain:
export LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8
export LANG=en_US.UTF-8
exec /opt/local/bin/lilypond "$@"
where /opt/local/bin/lilypond is if it is MacPorts, otherwise whatever path you 
have chosen.

After making the text file named "lilypond", make
chmod a+x lilypond
sudo cp lilypond /usr/local/bin/

Then, in to run it in Terminal, just write
lilypond …

Re: Still failing to operate lilypond 2.20.0 64-bit version.

[Hans Åberg]

> On Oct 7, 2023, at 07:43, Werner LEMBERG  wrote:
> 
>> libpaper is listed on
>> https://ports.macports.org/port/ghostscript/details/
>> 
>> Well, that's too bad since there is no actual license
>> incompatibility due to the use as subprocess, as already noted by
>> several others. Not sure if MacPorts can be taught that.
> 
> It would be a manual override by the MacPorts people to get pre-built
> LilyPond binaries.
> 
> However, a better solution to the whole problem is actually quite
> simple, providing someone has some experience with MacPorts and a bit
> of spare time: Just provide a Pull Request for
> 
>  https://trac.macports.org/ticket/66653
> 
> to get an LGPLed 'libpaper' library.

Dependent dynamic libraries, when binaries, are in MacPorts not bundled with 
the programs that depend on them, but installed separately, and linked at 
runtime. From a copyright point of view, this does not seem different from 
calling another installed program.

Re: Multi-trills

[Hans Åberg]

He is changing the auxiliary ad lib, just as your notation implies; the 
notation is a transcript. Here is another example, though it may be hard to 
hear:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AxgLm96eYx8

But anyway, you want to reproduce the notation in the link you gave.


> On 10 Jul 2023, at 15:49, Gregory Evans  wrote:
> 
> Hi Hans,
> your video shows a very cool technique! That's not quite what I'm after. 
> There is a somewhat established notational convention which follows the image 
> I supplied in my last email. See Carin Levine's "Die Spieltechnik der Flöte" 
> on pages 43-44 of the bilingual edition. Not every composer uses the notation 
> *precisely* the same. Sometimes, as you describe, the auxiliary note is what 
> is changing, but in some instances the composer means for the performer to 
> randomly combine alternations of any of the pitches in a trill-like manner. 
> There is an example on the first page if this score: 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQVeOp12_E4
> 
> regards,
> GR

Re: Multi-trills

[Hans Åberg]

> On 9 Jul 2023, at 14:16, Gregory Evans  wrote:
> 
> I was wondering if anyone has a technique for trills with more than one trill 
> pitch.

What musical effect do you want to describe? A trill where the auxiliary 
changes, as in this example?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h85k-rdiREk

Re: accidental query

[Hans Åberg]

> On 14 Feb 2023, at 19:49, Karim Haddad  wrote:
> 
> I found amazingly that Lily plays the 1/8th tones correctly as it does for 
> 1/4th tones.
> If i need to use other weird scales, can someone point me to the lily code 
> responsible for the midi pitch tuning (bend) in lilypond, so I can mess 
> around ...

You can easily do ETs that are multiples of 12. For other ETs, there is Graham 
Breed's file regular.ly.

Re: accidental query

[Hans Åberg]

> On 14 Feb 2023, at 15:27, Karim Haddad  wrote:
> 
> Maybe this was already submitted. I am looking for this particular symbol to 
> use as alteration for 1/8th tones. (cf. screenshot attached)
> However it seems missing in the Emmentaler font.

It is appears on the SMuFL page Extended Stein-Zimmermann accidentals at
https://www.w3.org/2021/03/smufl14/tables/extended-stein-zimmermann-accidentals.html

It can be typeset using say the Bravura font.

Re: irrational meters

[Hans Åberg]

> On 18 Jan 2023, at 01:46, H. S. Teoh via LilyPond user discussion 
>  wrote:
> 
> … it would be interesting if somebody composed a
> piece with an actually irrational meter, like π/4 or 3/π.  

I gave an example [1] where the numerator is an irrational number, 8+2√5.

If one wants to typeset them in LilyPond, one can apply continued fraction 
convergents to a suitable degree of accuracy.

> Only thing
> is, it would be impossible for human performers to play correctly, since
> there isn't any way to count the beats correctly (counting beats implies
> a rational fraction, since by definition it's impossible to count up to
> an irrational ratio by counting finite parts).

The example [1] is based on a popular Macedonian meter 12=3+2+2+3+2 [2], which 
in performance has heavy metric time bends [3].

A musical motivation writing such a meter might be to make performers to avoid 
trying to play an exact 3+2+2+3+2.


1. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2014-06/msg00237.htm
2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leventikos
3. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYR_pvRWO_g

Re: irrational meters

[Hans Åberg]

I gave an example [1] where the numerator is an irrational number, 8+2√5. It is 
implementable in LilyPond using continued fractions.

1. https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/2014-06/msg00237.html


> On 17 Jan 2023, at 18:40, Silvain Dupertuis  
> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the reference.
> This wikipedia article in English does not have it's counterpart in my 
> language (French), but a corresponding but different French article which 
> does not mention this notion.
> So this term “irrational” is indeed used that way in music (at least in 
> English) ­­— but I still think it would be better to use the terme «non 
> dyadic», also mentioned in the article, so as to harmonize teminology between 
> music and maths
> Silvain
> 
> Le 17.01.23 à 15:52, Hans Åberg a écrit :
>> 
>>> On 17 Jan 2023, at 15:20, Silvain Dupertuis  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I wonder about the term “irrational” meter. Should not we say “irregular” ??
>>> as in mathematics, an irrational number is a number which cannot be 
>>> represented as a fraction...
>>> 
>> The denominator is not a power of two. See:
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature#Irrational_meters
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> -- 
> Silvain Dupertuis
> Route de Lausanne 335
> 1293 Bellevue (Switzerland)
> tél. +41-(0)22-774.20.67
> portable +41-(0)79-604.87.52
> web: silvain-dupertuis.org

Re: irrational meters

[Hans Åberg]

> On 17 Jan 2023, at 15:20, Silvain Dupertuis  
> wrote:
> 
> I wonder about the term “irrational” meter. Should not we say “irregular” ??
> as in mathematics, an irrational number is a number which cannot be 
> represented as a fraction...

The denominator is not a power of two. See:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_signature#Irrational_meters

Re: ghostscript 9.56.1 in lilypond 2.23.14 no longer finds font Helvetica-Bold, but gs in 2.22.1 did

[Hans Åberg]

> On 13 Nov 2022, at 10:54, Jean Abou Samra  wrote:
> 
> Le 12/11/2022 à 05:27, Jeff Olson a écrit :
>> On 11/7/2022 6:58 AM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>>>> In 2.22 you successfully get "Hello, World!" at top of page.
>>> This example works in LilyPond 2.23.80 (MacPorts), on MacOS 13.0.
>> 
>> Interesting.  This must mean that Helvetica-Bold is available as a system 
>> font on MacOS, so even our stripped down ghostscript can find it there.  Not 
>> so on my Windows 10.
> 
> No; as far as I understand, it is because Hans installed LilyPond from 
> MacPorts, which comes with a fully functional Ghostscript, including its own 
> set of fonts.

One needs both the full Ghostscript and the Helvetica font. In my installation 
on MacOS, I have Ghostscript from both MacPorts and MacTex (TeXLive 2022), and 
it is not clear which one that MacPorts lilypond-devel is choosing. Properly it 
should be the one from MacPorts, but the one from MacTex is first in my PATH, 
as I set /use/local/bin/ before /opt/local/bin/. There was an issue with the 
installer into /opt/lilypond/ that I made from MacPorts, in that some 
components where selected from the PATH, instead from within the installation 
tree.

Re: ghostscript 9.56.1 in lilypond 2.23.14 no longer finds font Helvetica-Bold, but gs in 2.22.1 did

[Hans Åberg]

> On 12 Nov 2022, at 05:27, Jeff Olson  wrote:
> 
> On 11/7/2022 6:58 AM, Hans Åberg wrote:
>>> In 2.22 you successfully get "Hello, World!" at top of page.
>>> 
>> This example works in LilyPond 2.23.80 (MacPorts), on MacOS 13.0.
> Interesting.  This must mean that Helvetica-Bold is available as a system 
> font on MacOS, so even our stripped down ghostscript can find it there.  Not 
> so on my Windows 10.

Indeed, there is a TrueType Collection Helvetica.ttc, that also contains the 
bold font.

This link say you can download it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helvetica

Re: ghostscript 9.56.1 in lilypond 2.23.14 no longer finds font Helvetica-Bold, but gs in 2.22.1 did

[Hans Åberg]

> On 6 Nov 2022, at 06:12, Jeff Olson  wrote:
> 
> This MWE works in 2.22.1 but fails in 2.23.14 (running via Frescobaldi 3.1.1 
> on up-to-date Windows 10):
> \version "2.22.1"
> \markup {
>   \postscript #"
> /Helvetica-Bold findfont
> 4 scalefont setfont
> (Hello, World!) show
> "
> }
> In 2.22 you successfully get "Hello, World!" at top of page.

This example works in LilyPond 2.23.80 (MacPorts), on MacOS 13.0.

Re: Font path/finding issue on Mac OS Big Sur

[Hans Åberg]

> On 5 Oct 2022, at 19:59, Alex Harker  wrote:
> 
> The code was al put together on an earlier version of Mac OS and I did not 
> need to do anything further to make it work.
> 
> After some more investigation it looks like Frescobaldi is likely actually 
> using a MacPorts install of lilypond

This can eb changed in the Preferences menu.

> I now also see the fonts in the Document Fonts window of Frescobaldi, 
> although they turn up as “Text Fonts”. I’m not sure if that relates to the 
> issue of whether SMuFL fonts might work more generally (I have no idea what 
> that really means, but in my case I am using only accidentals via code 
> modified from ekmelily (http://www.ekmelic-music.org/en/extra/ekmelily.htm). 
> 
> So - I am now back in the world of eight-tone accidentals…

E48, as in ekmel-48.ily? —Lilypond sets the sharps to 1/2 E12, so 1/8 is a 1/4 
(quarter) E12 tone.

ETs that are not multiples of 12 are also possible, by the use to Graham 
Breed's regular.ly, for the MIDI output.

Re: Font path/finding issue on Mac OS Big Sur

[Hans Åberg]

> On 5 Oct 2022, at 14:21, Alex Harker  wrote:
> 
> I was wondering if anyone could help me debug a missing fonts issue on Mac. 
> I’m having an issue with a score that was working on a previous Lilypond.app 
> based install on a previous OS.
> 
> * My install *
> - I installed lilpond via Homebrew
> - I am running it via the latest Mac Frescobaldi release
> - I have installed the Ekmelos font to the system (and it is visible in other 
> Mac apps such as textedit
> 
> * The issue*
> - When I typeset the Ekmelos font gets auto-substituted with no warning and 
> my pdf is incorrect 
> - When I look at “Document Fonts” in Frescobaldi I don’t see Ekmelos listed 
> anywhere

It worked for me replacing the Bravura font on a sample using Helmholtz-Ellis 
accidentals, using MacPorts lilypond 2.23.13 on MacOS 12.6.

With another font, I had to mention it explicitly, as possibly FontConfig does 
not look up all fonts automatically, using:
  \override #'(font-name . "Kefa")

Re: Font path/finding issue on Mac OS Big Sur

[Hans Åberg]

> On 5 Oct 2022, at 14:21, Alex Harker  wrote:
> 
> I was wondering if anyone could help me debug a missing fonts issue on Mac. 
> I’m having an issue with a score that was working on a previous Lilypond.app 
> based install on a previous OS.
> 
> * My install *
> - I installed lilpond via Homebrew
> - I am running it via the latest Mac Frescobaldi release
> - I have installed the Ekmelos font to the system…

Just to make sure, do you see it with 'ls /Library/Fonts' in Terminal?

Re: Accent on single note of chord?

[Hans Åberg]

> On 24 Sep 2022, at 22:35, Werner LEMBERG  wrote:
> 
>>> Has anyone come across notation where only a single note in the chord
>>> has an accent?
>> 
>> I am pretty sure this is not a standard thing.
> 
> Actually, it is a standard thing, at least in piano music.  Attached
> is an example from Schumann's 'Humoreske' (Henle Urtext).

Also in piano performance, regardless whether notated.

Re: Create 16th-century microtonal accidental

[Hans Åberg]

The Harvard Concise says that in the 15th century, the term diesis was used to 
denote the sharp, and that the microtonal interpretations are modern.


> On 4 Sep 2022, at 17:44, Johannes Keller  wrote:
> 
> Thank you for these thoughts. I'm aware of the Helmholtz-Ellis notation
> and decided not to use it (or any other contemporary approach to
> microtonality). My thesis is that Vicentino's notation is in fact a
> tabulature for his Archicembalo / Arciorgano (keyboard instruments with
> up to 36 keys per octave), so they are a reference to a location on the
> keyboard, not to a specific pitch (be it relative or absolute). Since
> the tuning of those instruments is context-dependent it would be
> confusing to define the 'meaning' of the notation in terms of exact
> interval sizes. I'm happy to discuss this further in case you are
> interested, but maybe we better do that off the lilypond-list.
> 
> 
> Hans Åberg  writes:
> 
>>> On 2 Sep 2022, at 10:24, Johannes Keller  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I would like to use Lilypond for a critical edition of Nicola
>>> Vicentino's treatise "L'antica musica" (Rome 1555). The original
>>> notation uses an unconventional accidental to indicate a pitch
>>> modification of a "Diesis" (ca. 1/5 of a whole tone).
>> …
>>> Examples of the original notation can be found here, see for example
>>> fol. 12v (PDF p. 24):
>>> 
>>> http://vmirror.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/9/94/IMSLP114662-PMLP210243-lantica_musica.pdf
>> 
>> In case you would want to translate into modern microtonal notation:
>> 
>> The enharmonic diesis 128/125, the difference between an octave 2 and
>> three Just Intonation major thirds 5/4, is actually an interval of
>> relative scale degree 1, not an accidental, or an interval of relative
>> scale degree 0.
>> 
>> So this means that if this old manuscript, where the enharmonic diesis
>> is written as an accidental, is translated into modern Helmholtz-Ellis
>> notation, the note ends on the position one above in the staff
>> notation, with a triple raised syntonic comma 81/80, combined with
>> some other accidental like a flat or double flat.

Re: Create 16th-century microtonal accidental

[Hans Åberg]

> On 2 Sep 2022, at 10:24, Johannes Keller  wrote:
> 
> I would like to use Lilypond for a critical edition of Nicola
> Vicentino's treatise "L'antica musica" (Rome 1555). The original
> notation uses an unconventional accidental to indicate a pitch
> modification of a "Diesis" (ca. 1/5 of a whole tone).
…
> Examples of the original notation can be found here, see for example
> fol. 12v (PDF p. 24):
> 
> http://vmirror.imslp.org/files/imglnks/usimg/9/94/IMSLP114662-PMLP210243-lantica_musica.pdf

In case you would want to translate into modern microtonal notation:

The enharmonic diesis 128/125, the difference between an octave 2 and three 
Just Intonation major thirds 5/4, is actually an interval of relative scale 
degree 1, not an accidental, or an interval of relative scale degree 0.

So this means that if this old manuscript, where the enharmonic diesis is 
written as an accidental, is translated into modern Helmholtz-Ellis notation, 
the note ends on the position one above in the staff notation, with a triple 
raised syntonic comma 81/80, combined with some other accidental like a flat or 
double flat.

Re: Resource for sharing PDFs and ly file?

[Hans Åberg]

> On 21 Aug 2022, at 02:29, wmil...@aol.com wrote:
> 
> As I prepare to retire I would like to know if there is anyone interested in 
> piano, ukulele and or guitar teaching files I have developed over the last 20 
> years? I am happy to share them for free.

Make sure to choose a suitable copyright license. It is generally a mistake to 
put copyrightable material in the public domain, as it does no mean what one 
would think. Some links below; other on this list might help with detailing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free-software_license
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons_license
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_copyright_license

Re: 64-bit MacBook Air M2 problems

[Hans Åberg]

[List changed to LilyPond-User, from LilyPond-Devel.]

> On 16 Aug 2022, at 22:16, Ian West  wrote:
> 
> I reset my laptop to abolish 'smart quotes' . Successful. But there must be 
> other subtleties that are frustrating me. Perhaps if I type the text with 
> textedit, then copy and paste to feed it to Ly. Or just change the suffix 
> from .txt to .ly?

You might try Frescobaldi, which is in effect an integrated development system 
for LilyPond. Both type and compile from within the app.

The program 'lilypond' does not care about the filename other than that if the 
filename extension is '.ly' it can be omitted when passed as argument, and 
there may be some more.

The extension might also be set so that if it ends on ".ly" some favorite app 
is opened, say Frescobaldi.

If one has a lot of these filename extensions to set, one can use the System 
Preferences pane RCDefaultApp by Rubicode, which is for free. It may require 
changing something in Security & Privacy to work.

Otherwise, in general, it is set from the Finder in the pop-up menu for the 
file "Open With…", or Info on the file.

Re: Amharic

[Hans Åberg]

> On 15 Aug 2022, at 23:22, Werner LEMBERG  wrote:
> 
>>> On my system (Ubuntu), your amharic characters are encoded in the
>>> Ethiopan pane (U+1200-U+137C) and they are displayed with the
>>> FreeSerif Font
>> 
>> This works.
> 
> Maybe your Mac OS Amharic font is using Apple-specific SFNT tables
> (not covered by the OpenType standard) that are not understood and/or
> supported by Pango...

It is a TrueType Collection, containing two fonts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TrueType#TrueType_Collection

I get:

% file /System/Library/Fonts/Supplemental/Kefa.ttc 
/System/Library/Fonts/Supplemental/Kefa.ttc: TrueType font collection data, 
2.0, 2 fonts, at 0x20 TrueType Font data, 17 tables, 1st "GDEF"

% file /Library/Fonts/FreeSans.ttf 
/Library/Fonts/FreeSans.ttf: TrueType Font data, 19 tables, 1st "FFTM", name 
offset 0x15e75c

Re: Amharic

[Hans Åberg]

> On 15 Aug 2022, at 19:02, Silvain Dupertuis  
> wrote:
> 
> On my system (Ubuntu), your amharic characters are encoded in the Ethiopan 
> pane
> (U+1200-U+137C)
> and they are displayed with the FreeSerif Font

This works. I tried copy-pasting the Kefa font into the same location this font 
ends up in*), but it did not work. So somehow is Lilypond not able to see this 
font.

One should make sure to download from the GNU site, as there are a lot of 
modified versions out there.

https://www.gnu.org/software/freefont/

*) /Library/Fonts/ as opposed to the original location in /System/Library/Fonts/

Re: Amharic

[Hans Åberg]

On my system both input text and font use the Unicode range for Amharic. So the 
question is why it is changed to a private area character in the PDF. If 
Lilypond does not see the font, one would think the code point should not be 
changed.


> On 15 Aug 2022, at 19:02, Silvain Dupertuis  
> wrote:
> 
> On my system (Ubuntu), your amharic characters are encoded in the Ethiopan 
> pane
> (U+1200-U+137C)
> and they are displayed with the FreeSerif Font
> For example ቱ (the third character) is defined as
> U+1271 ETHIOPIC SYLLABLE TU
> 
> So they are not in any private area.
> 
> I tested them in a LilyPond file, and your amharic charaters show up normally.
> Looking at the properties of the PDF files, it gives these fonts :
> 
> name type  encoding emb 
> sub uni object ID
>  -  --- 
> --- --- -
> ETFDGR+C059-RomanType 1C   Custom   yes 
> yes no   7  0
> MNLSBV+Emmentaler-20 Type 1C   Custom   yes 
> yes no  13  0
> VLWNVH+FreeSerif TrueType  WinAnsi  yes 
> yes yes  9  0
> 
> So I would suggest you try and install FreeSerif on your system
> Look for example and fonts here
> 
> Le 15.08.22 à 17:55, Hans Åberg a écrit :
>> composer = "Mulatu Astatke (ሙላቱ አስታጥቄ)"
> 
> 
> -- 
> Silvain Dupertuis
> Route de Lausanne 335
> 1293 Bellevue (Switzerland)
> tél. +41-(0)22-774.20.67
> portable +41-(0)79-604.87.52
> web: silvain-dupertuis.org

Re: Amharic

[Hans Åberg]

> On 15 Aug 2022, at 18:19, Werner LEMBERG  wrote:
> 
>> Amharic does not display when using:
>> \header{
>>  composer = "Mulatu Astatke (ሙላቱ አስታጥቄ)"
>> }
>> Instead, showing a series of PRIVATE USE AREA-10FC18 U+10FC18.
>> 
>> On MacOS, there is a system font Kefa for Amharic.
>> 
>> So what is missing here?
> 
> No idea.  On my GNU/Linux box using current git, this works just fine.

I am using MacPorts lilypond 2.23.11. Should the font name somehow be indicated?

Also, when passing from lilypond 2.23.10 to 2.23.11, there are a syntax changes 
that convert-ly cannot amend:
Script #'script-priority → Script.script-priority
TextScript #'script-priority → TextScript.script-priority
Score.RehearsalMark #'break-visibility → Score.RehearsalMark.break-visibility

Amharic

[Hans Åberg]

Amharic does not display when using:
\header{
  composer = "Mulatu Astatke (ሙላቱ አስታጥቄ)"
}
Instead, showing a series of PRIVATE USE AREA-10FC18 U+10FC18.

On MacOS, there is a system font Kefa for Amharic.

So what is missing here?

Re: very simple off-topic question regarding command line viewing of postscript files on macOS

[Hans Åberg]

> On 3 Aug 2022, at 06:43, Kenneth Wolcott  wrote:
> 
>  I'll look into that, but I already installed xquartx, via homebrew,
> which provides an X11 environment.

I have MacPorts xorg-server installed, and when launching X11 programs from the 
Terminal app, it automatically launches XQuartz.

On MacOS, there is also Frescobaldi, in effect a LilyPond IDE.

Re: \time 9/8 (3/4)

[Hans Åberg]

> On 29 Jul 2022, at 15:21, Kieren MacMillan  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Hans,

Hello,

>> Hindemith, "Training…", indicates that 6/8 is always bipartite, so the 3/4 
>> is a metric shift in this music piece.
> 
> Correct.
> 
>> By contrast, 9/8 is tripartite, just as 3/4, so I do not see any obvious 
>> difference here.
> 
> The difference is that each of the three big beats in 9/8 is subdivided into 
> three eighth notes, while each of the three big beats in 3/4 is subdivided 
> into two eighth notes… Writing it this way means that you don't have to write 
> the tuplet notation on alternate bars.

Yes, notational convenience, but the OP described it as wanting to have 3/4 
"feeling", which raised some questions over what this might mean.

Re: \time 9/8 (3/4)

[Hans Åberg]

> On 29 Jul 2022, at 15:14, Paul Hodges  wrote:
> 
> From: Hans Åberg  
> 
> There is also the practise to write the triplet markers just a few bars, and 
> then skipping them. Perhaps for simplifying handwriting and helping then 
> engraver in the days this was done by hand, so would not be needed nowadays 
> when done electronically. 
> 
> Not needed maybe, but in some contexts actually easier to read in my view.

For a Leventikos, like Egejki Majki, I use
  \time 3,2,2,3,2 12/8
  \override TupletNumber.text = #tuplet-number::calc-fraction-text
which has duplets on the 3s, I use this first:
\once \override TupletNumber.text = 
  #(tuplet-number::fraction-with-notes (ly:make-duration 2 0) (ly:make-duration 
2 1))
  \tuplet 2/3 {f16 g a d,}  …
to get small notes added. And then
  \tuplet 2/3 {f16 g a c,} …
just writes numbers over. I get small hooks over
  \times 2/3 {f4\trill~f8} …

It does not look so intrusive.

Re: \time 9/8 (3/4)

[Hans Åberg]

> On 29 Jul 2022, at 14:27, Eef Weenink  wrote:
> 
> The question started with a piece of Liszt. It has to be played adante. Time 
> is set:
> first part:  9/8 (3/4)
> second part: 6/8 (2/4) istesso tempo (means that a 1/4 stays 1/4. So the 
> duration of the measure changes). 
> 
> Writing it this way, prevents printing the triplet everywhere. 
> The feel of the piece is for sure 3/4 resp. 2/4. 
> 
> NB: I also have seen similar pieces where, the composer/arranger, just wrote 
> it is this way, without mentioning it in the time. When reading it, you 
> suddenly see 3 x 1/8 in a 1/4. (OK this must be triplets :-) and of you go.

There is also the practise to write the triplet markers just a few bars, and 
then skipping them. Perhaps for simplifying handwriting and helping then 
engraver in the days this was done by hand, so would not be needed nowadays 
when done electronically.

Re: \time 9/8 (3/4)

[Hans Åberg]

> On 29 Jul 2022, at 13:30, Kieren MacMillan  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi Carl,
> 
>> Just curious, because I know precious little about polymetry.
>> Does 9/8 (3/4) mean anything different from (3 + 3 + 3)/8 ?
> 
> Yes: the parenthetical notation is usually an instruction to alternate time 
> signatures, not simply a clarification of intention. For example, in “West 
> Side Story”, Bernstein uses 6/8 (3/4) to indicate that alternate bars should 
> be felt/conducted as 6/8 then 3/4 then 6/8 then 3/4…

Hindemith, "Training…", indicates that 6/8 is always bipartite, so the 3/4 is a 
metric shift in this music piece.

> Hope that helps!
> Kieren.
> 
> p.s.
> 
>> To my novice eye, both mean that it's 9/8 with three primary beats per 
>> measure.  Also to my novice eye, it seems that 9/8 can/t have a 3/4 
>> alternate time signature; perhaps a (3/4.) , but not a (3/4).
> 
> Perhaps the intention is to save the notational ink of changing between 
> triple and duple feel? So there continue to be three primary beats per 
> measure, but alternating between “triplets“ and “straight eighths” without 
> having to add tuplet numbers?

By contrast, 9/8 is tripartite, just as 3/4, so I do not see any obvious 
difference here.

These metric refers to CPP (common practise period) music. In Bulgarian music, 
I found an example of 6/8, 6 = 2+2+2 contrasted against a 7/8, perhaps a 3+2+2.

In Irish music, jigs are written in 6/8 and slip jigs in 9/8. The Bulgarian 
pravo horo, called zonaradikos in Greece, has a similar triple rhythms as 6/8, 
but is invariably written in 2/4 in Bulgaria, perhaps because performances have 
something similar to notes inégales (swinged notes, as in jazz) on the dotted 
notes.

Re: \time 9/8 (3/4)

[Hans Åberg]

> On 29 Jul 2022, at 09:44, David Kastrup  wrote:
> 
> Hans Åberg  writes:
> 
>>> On 28 Jul 2022, at 22:43, Jean Abou Samra  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Also here:
>>> 
>>> https://myrealbook.vintherine.org/mesures-composees.html
>> 
>> One also write I think:
>>  \time #'(4 4 3) 11/8
> 
> Slightly more human-readable:
> 
> \time 4,4,3 11/8

This is better.

In older code I used:
  \time 11/16
  \set beatStructure = #'(4 3 4)

In even older LilyPond, one could use substructures for the beaming. This would 
be useful for say a Daichovo horo meter 9 = (2+2)+(2+3), meaning that the beat 
on the third 2 is more stressed than the second 2. In current LilyPond, it ends 
up as 9 = 4+2+3. It is not a big issue though.

Re: \time 9/8 (3/4)

[Hans Åberg]

> On 28 Jul 2022, at 22:43, Jean Abou Samra  wrote:
> 
> Also here:
> 
> https://myrealbook.vintherine.org/mesures-composees.html

One also write I think:
  \time #'(4 4 3) 11/8

For a kopanitsa 11=4+3+4, I use:
  \time #'(4 3 4) 11/16

Re: LilyPond on macOS (was: \repeat unfold has problems inside \repeat volta)

[Hans Åberg]

> On 2 Jul 2022, at 18:35, Carl Sorensen  wrote:
> 
> On Sat, Jul 2, 2022 at 10:23 AM Jean Abou Samra  wrote:
> 
>> Le 02/07/2022 à 18:14, Carl Sorensen a écrit :
>> 
>>> I can't currently run 2.23.10 on my Mac, so I can't try it,
>> 
>> 
>> What is the problem you are encountering? I think that normally, it
>> should work on all 64-bit-capable Macs.
> 
> 
> I don't run LilyPond at the command line, but I use Frescobalidi.
> 
> When I extract the files from lilypond-2.23.10-darwin-x86_64.tar.gz and
> place it in my Applications folder, then point Frescobald to lilypond in
> bin/ , I get the following error:

Have you tried lilypond from the command line, in Terminal? —When downloading 
the tar file using Safari of Firefox, the OS blocks the unpacked binaries. Then 
one after trying to run it, one has to unblock in System Preferences → Security 
& Privacy → General, by clicking "Allow Anyway". It may work trying to run it 
from the Finder pop-up menu "Open".

Alternatively, one can take down the link using say wget, which is not 
installed by default, though.

When doing that, the binary worked fine for me, compiling a small snippet.

Re: What is the meaning of a mordent on top of a sharp sign?

[Hans Åberg]

> On 28 Jun 2022, at 06:23, Kenneth Wolcott  wrote:
> 
>  What remains (that I did not specify) is how to engrave this?

I have:

above = { \once \override Script #'script-priority = #-100 }
below = { \once \override TextScript #'script-priority = #-100 }

And then, for a trill with a natural above (also used for a prall), and a 
mordent with sharp below:
  \above fis8\trill^\markup{\natural}
  \below b8\mordent^\markup{\sharp}

These accidentals may change when transposing, and LilyPond does not seem to 
have a way to adjust that automatically.

Re: Consecutive trills

[Hans Åberg]

> On 29 Apr 2022, at 23:53, Lukas-Fabian Moser  wrote:
> 
> Hi Hans,
> 
> Am 29.04.22 um 20:33 schrieb Hans Åberg:
> 
>> In BWV 1067, first movement, there is for the flute a long note with several 
>> ties with a trill span ending somewhere in the middle, indicating the length 
>> of the trill followed by untrilled part. I do not know if Bach himself write 
>> it that way, [...]
> It seems he did:
> 
> 

My modern score is exactly the same! Good to know, because editors may change 
things.

Re: Consecutive trills

[Hans Åberg]

This is interesting. When transcribing Balkan music, I found that the musicians 
often end the trill in a timed manner, like suggested by this notation. Of 
course, ornaments are up to the musician to decide, but it helps a consistent 
result.


> On 29 Apr 2022, at 22:02, Kira Garvie  wrote:
> 
> It is true that Bach used the signs interchangeably, but if a trill 
> terminates before the note itself terminates in his music, it indicates to 
> stop trilling at that point and continue holding the note. At least that’s 
> how we interpret his organ music notations! 
> 
> On Fri, Apr 29, 2022 at 3:54 PM Mark Stephen Mrotek  
> wrote:
> Hans, 
> 
> Without getting into detail, Arnold Dolmetsch contends that
> "They (the various indications of a trillo) have no particular shade of 
> meaning, being only the consequence of his (Bach's) lack of system."
> The Interpretation of the Music of the 17th and 18th Centuries, p. 169.
> 
> Mark
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: lilypond-user 
> [mailto:lilypond-user-bounces+carsonmark=ca.rr@gnu.org] On Behalf Of Hans 
> Åberg
> Sent: Friday, April 29, 2022 11:33 AM
> To: Kieren MacMillan 
> Cc: Martín Rincón Botero ; Lilypond-User 
> Mailing List 
> Subject: Re: Consecutive trills
> 
> 
> > On 29 Apr 2022, at 19:06, Kieren MacMillan  
> > wrote:
> > 
> >>> As far as I know that's not a notation rule, but I agree that it makes 
> >>> more sense to use the trill + wavy line for tied notes.
> >> I haven't seen "tr" plus chevron on a single untied note
> > 
> > When it’s a chain of trills — some tied, others single — I find the 
> > consistency [of using the wavy line on *all* trills, and not just the tied 
> > notes] is appreciated by conductors and performers.
> 
> In BWV 1067, first movement, there is for the flute a long note with several 
> ties with a trill span ending somewhere in the middle, indicating the length 
> of the trill followed by untrilled part. I do not know if Bach himself write 
> it that way, but I found it useful in Balkan music, where it is common to not 
> have an alteration on the last 16th of say a trilled dotted 8th note. I 
> decided to write that with an 8th having a "tr" tied to a following 16th, 
> otherwise those not accustomed with the style would not know how to play it 
> (and I find it is hard to remember). Trilled notes can be syncopated in 
> Balkan music, and then it may be necessary to use a trill span. Hindemith, 
> "Elementary Training", says that on short notes, a trill can have only one 
> alteration. This occurs in Balkan music, but I decided to write a prall sign 
> as it is more compact.
> 
> 
> 
> 

Re: Consecutive trills

[Hans Åberg]

> On 29 Apr 2022, at 19:06, Kieren MacMillan  
> wrote:
> 
>>> As far as I know that's not a notation rule, but I agree that it makes more 
>>> sense to use the trill + wavy line for tied notes.
>> I haven't seen "tr" plus chevron on a single untied note
> 
> When it’s a chain of trills — some tied, others single — I find the 
> consistency [of using the wavy line on *all* trills, and not just the tied 
> notes] is appreciated by conductors and performers.

In BWV 1067, first movement, there is for the flute a long note with several 
ties with a trill span ending somewhere in the middle, indicating the length of 
the trill followed by untrilled part. I do not know if Bach himself write it 
that way, but I found it useful in Balkan music, where it is common to not have 
an alteration on the last 16th of say a trilled dotted 8th note. I decided to 
write that with an 8th having a "tr" tied to a following 16th, otherwise those 
not accustomed with the style would not know how to play it (and I find it is 
hard to remember). Trilled notes can be syncopated in Balkan music, and then it 
may be necessary to use a trill span. Hindemith, "Elementary Training", says 
that on short notes, a trill can have only one alteration. This occurs in 
Balkan music, but I decided to write a prall sign as it is more compact.

Re: Consecutive trills

[Hans Åberg]

> On 29 Apr 2022, at 16:31, Martín Rincón Botero  
> wrote:
> 
> Thanks Hans!
> 
> As far as I know that's not a notation rule, but I agree that it makes more 
> sense to use the trill + wavy line for tied notes.

I haven't seen "tr" plus chevron on a single untied note, though the Harvard 
Concise mentions that "t" plus chevron has been used historically, but then 
perhaps not extending beyond the note itself.

Re: Consecutive trills

[Hans Åberg]

> On 29 Apr 2022, at 12:07, Martín Rincón Botero  
> wrote:
> 
> consider:
> 
> \version "2.22.1"
> 
> {
>   d'2
> \startTrillSpan
> b2
> \startTrillSpan
> b1\stopTrillSpan
> }

You might use \trill in these cases, as the trill symbol "tr" by itself applies 
to the whole note it is written above, and it only. —The trill span is only 
needed for slurred notes.

Re: Musical questions

[Hans Åberg]

> On 11 Apr 2022, at 16:16, Jacques Menu  wrote:
> 
> Hello folks,
> 
> In Mendelssohn Bartholdy’s Ave maris stella, the soprano has this:
> 
> 
> 
> With LilyPond, I can obtain the ad lib cue notes with smaller note heads in a 
> cadenza. Is that my best bet?
> 
> Also, what is the musicial signification of the ligatures above the staff?

Another score does not have them, so it might be (incorrect) phrase marks added 
by the editor.

Re: Mac Monterey 12.3 and Lilypond 2.2.2

[Hans Åberg]

> On 18 Mar 2022, at 20:28, Miguel Abrams  wrote:
> 
> Hi Hans:
> 
> I wondered if you could suggest the next steps I should take.  I have 
> completed the following successfully.
> 
> MacPorts was installed successfully, after Xcode install completed
> 
> Both appear operational
> 
> I followed the instructions displayed at :
> 
>   https://ports.macports.org/port/lilypond/
> 
> To Install Lilypond, run the following command in macOS Terminal
> 
>   sudo port install Lilypond
> 
>   Lilypond version 2.22.2 Updated 3 weeks ago approx
> 
> The  install appears to have been completed without error.
> 
> Please understand that I have limited knowledge of Terminal use.
> 
> My question for you is how do you launch Lilypond?

I think that MacPorts writes a line to change the PATH variable to include the 
stuff in /opt/local/bin/, where alos lilypond is.

So on a test file test.ly, in Terminal, just try
lilypond test.ly
or
/opt/local/bin/lilypond/test.ly

You might install Frescobaldi and typeset it from there. It knwos about 
MacPorts so should work automatically.

If you have some problems with the language that lilypond writes, then you 
might try the script I gave. Type
echo $PATH
If /usr/local/bin is not before /opt/local/bin, then it means that MacPorts 
programs are chosen over those in /usr/local/bin. Then file ~/.zshrc may have 
to be edited.

All this may be complicated and a bit confusing at first, but not really 
difficult compared to music. :-)

Re: Mac Monterey 12.3 and Lilypond 2.2.2

[Hans Åberg]

> On 18 Mar 2022, at 20:28, Miguel Abrams  wrote:
> 
> Hi Hans:
> 
> I wondered if you could suggest the next steps I should take.  I have 
> completed the following successfully.
> 
> MacPorts was installed successfully, after Xcode install completed
> 
> Both appear operational
> 
> I followed the instructions displayed at :
> 
>   https://ports.macports.org/port/lilypond/
> 
> To Install Lilypond, run the following command in macOS Terminal
> 
>   sudo port install Lilypond
> 
>   Lilypond version 2.22.2 Updated 3 weeks ago approx
> 
> The  install appears to have been completed without error.
> 
> Please understand that I have limited knowledge of Terminal use.
> 
> My question for you is how do you launch Lilypond?

I use a script, called 'lilypond' and put in /usr/local/bin/:
export LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8
export LANG=en_US.UTF-8
exec /opt/local/bin/lilypond "$@"

MacOS have these set to the value UTF-8 without the 'en_US.' part which is 
causing problems for some components that LilyPond relies on.

Then it can be used as 'lilypond' in Terminal. Otherwise, one can call 
'/opt/local/bin/lilypond' directly.

To create the script, in Terminal:
touch lilypond
chmod a+x

Then to edit it in an editor say TextEdit use 'open -a TextEdit lilypond' or 
the text editor that opens .txt files 'open -t lilypond'. After saving, in 
Terminal use
sudo cp lilypond /usr/local/bin/
to get the above mentioned copy.

Use 'which lilypond' to see which lilypond you are calling. If the 
environmental variable PATH is not set properly, you may get the MacPorts one, 
and not the script.

Then 'rm lilypond' if you do not want the working copy anymore.

This can be used for other lilypond programs as well, convert-ly, midi2ly, etc.

> Does it always have to be launched through the terminal?

All programs will call this program 'lilypond' but for example Frescobaldi will 
do it for you so you don't have to use Terminal.


>   I have yet, therefore, been able to confirm if this install will work in 
> Mac Monterey OS Version 12.3.

Just try, on some test file test.ly,
/opt/local/bin/lilypond test.ly

Re: Mac Monterey 12.3 and Lilypond 2.2.2

[Hans Åberg]

> On 18 Mar 2022, at 17:23, David Wright  wrote:
> 
> On Fri 18 Mar 2022 at 10:34:08 (+0100), Hans Åberg wrote:
>> On 17 Mar 2022, at 23:39, Hans Aikema wrote:
> 
>>> You cannot have both active indeed, but you can install them both (one 
>>> active, one inactive). The recipe to end up with stable, but have current 
>>> development version at hand for activation:
>>> 
>>> sudo port install lilypond-devel
>>> sudo port deactivate lilypond-devel
>>> sudo port install lilypond
>>> 
>>> then when you want to try develop:
>>> sudo port deactivate lilypond
>>> sudo port activate lilypond-devel
>>> 
>>> and the other way around to switch back to stable:
>>> sudo port deactivate lilypond-devel
>>> sudo port activate lilypond
>> 
>> This seems simpler than having a separate MacPorts installation. —To avoid 
>> having to write 'sudo' all the time, one can start 'sudo -s'.
> 
> It might be safer to use, say, an alias, a shell function, or a script
> for each version, so that you can just type "lpdev" or "lpprod" to switch.
> And if you collect a number of versions, "lp", "lp2236", … , maybe?

For fun, here is a script 'lilypond-select'; I haven't tried it. Use it with 
'sudo'.

--
#!/bin/bash

# Select MacPorts LilyPond version lilypond or lilypond-devel.


if [ "$1" = "dev" ]
  then
port deactivate lilypond
port activate lilypond-devel
elif [ "$1" = "stb" ]
  then
port deactivate lilypond-devel
port activate lilypond
else
echo "lilypond-select  selects MacPorts ."
echo "Takes one argument, \"dev\" for lilypond-devel, \"stb\" for lilypond."
fi
--

Re: Mac Monterey 12.3 and Lilypond 2.2.2

[Hans Åberg]

> On 17 Mar 2022, at 23:39, Hans Aikema  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 17 Mar 2022, at 23:18, Hans Åberg  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On 17 Mar 2022, at 23:06, Hans Aikema  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I also prefer to run development releases alongside stable, but any music I 
>>> try to write for stable (unless there is something I neer for it that only 
>>> works in the development version). Development I only run from time
>>> to time to see that nothing I use is breaking on it.
>> 
>> In the past I used support for irregular meters and microtonality with 
>> support slowly coming along in the development version, but that has now 
>> moved to the stable version. Unfortunately, one cannot install both the 
>> development version and the stable one side by side in the standard 
>> MacPorts, I think, because they have the same name, unless one makes a 
>> separate installation of MacPorts in a different location than /opt/local/, 
>> which is also possible. 
> 
> You cannot have both active indeed, but you can install them both (one 
> active, one inactive). The recipe to end up with stable, but have current 
> development version at hand for activation:
> 
> sudo port install lilypond-devel
> sudo port deactivate lilypond-devel
> sudo port install lilypond
> 
> then when you want to try develop:
> sudo port deactivate lilypond
> sudo port activate lilypond-devel
> 
> and the other way around to switch back to stable:
> sudo port deactivate lilypond-devel
> sudo port activate lilypond

This seems simpler than having a separate MacPorts installation. —To avoid 
having to write 'sudo' all the time, one can start 'sudo -s'.

> only the active one will be upgraded with a sudo port upgrade outdated (over 
> time you can even have multiple historical versions side by side at hand for 
> activation by specifying the explicit version)

This is something that should be remembered.

Re: Mac Monterey 12.3 and Lilypond 2.2.2

[Hans Åberg]

> On 17 Mar 2022, at 23:06, Hans Aikema  wrote:
> 
> Hans Aikema, direct vanuit de iCloud
> 
>> Op 17 mrt. 2022 om 22:31 heeft Hans Åberg  het volgende 
>> geschreven:
>> 
>> 
>>> On 17 Mar 2022, at 22:26, Jean Abou Samra  wrote:
>>> 
>>>> The latest development version works, and I gather it does not differ much 
>>>> from the "stable" version fairly recent updates (the old development 
>>>> version become new stable).
>>> 
>>> Not sure what you're referring to here? The latest stable release, which is 
>>> quite recent, is 2.22.2, which is from the 2.22 series. It has only 
>>> received bug fixes compared to the previously available stable release, 
>>> 2.22.1. It does not receive the current development changes. If you want to 
>>> help as a beta tester for the development release, 2.23.6, or just enjoy 
>>> its new features, you are of course welcome to do so, but it is what it is: 
>>> an unstable release. It does differ significantly from 2.22.2.
>> 
>> The versions before did not change for a long time, and I always used the 
>> development version as needing the features, and I have had not problems 
>> with that.
> 
> The observed (in)stability depends on the use-case. For lilypond-devel I 
> currently run into https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/issues/6203
> as I use Lilypond (among others) to create create images with transparent 
> background for powerpoint slides. A use-case that works fine with the stable 
> release, but is broken in the current development release (and expected to be 
> working again once 2.23.7 is released according to the issue status)
> 
> I also prefer to run development releases alongside stable, but any music I 
> try to write for stable (unless there is something I neer for it that only 
> works in the development version). Development I only run from time
> to time to see that nothing I use is breaking on it.

In the past I used support for irregular meters and microtonality with support 
slowly coming along in the development version, but that has now moved to the 
stable version. Unfortunately, one cannot install both the development version 
and the stable one side by side in the standard MacPorts, I think, because they 
have the same name, unless one makes a separate installation of MacPorts in a 
different location than /opt/local/, which is also possible. 

Re: Mac Monterey 12.3 and Lilypond 2.2.2

[Hans Åberg]

> On 17 Mar 2022, at 22:26, Jean Abou Samra  wrote:
> 
>> The latest development version works, and I gather it does not differ much 
>> from the "stable" version fairly recent updates (the old development version 
>> become new stable).
> 
> Not sure what you're referring to here? The latest stable release, which is 
> quite recent, is 2.22.2, which is from the 2.22 series. It has only received 
> bug fixes compared to the previously available stable release, 2.22.1. It 
> does not receive the current development changes. If you want to help as a 
> beta tester for the development release, 2.23.6, or just enjoy its new 
> features, you are of course welcome to do so, but it is what it is: an 
> unstable release. It does differ significantly from 2.22.2.

The versions before did not change for a long time, and I always used the 
development version as needing the features, and I have had not problems with 
that.

Re: Mac Monterey 12.3 and Lilypond 2.2.2

[Hans Åberg]

> On 17 Mar 2022, at 21:49, Hans Aikema  wrote:
> 
>> On 17 Mar 2022, at 21:04, Jonas Hahnfeld via LilyPond user discussion 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Am Donnerstag, dem 17.03.2022 um 19:48 + schrieb Michael T Abrams:
>>> Hi,
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>>> Seems confusing to me that the gitlab 64 bit version of lilypond
>>> 2.2.2 might not work in Mac OS Monterey 12.3?
>> 
>> There is no 64 bit version of LilyPond 2.22.2 for macOS.
> 
> There is of course the 64-bit macports (https://www.macports.org/install.php) 
> version of lilypond 2.22.2
> It has ports for the Apple silicon systems (aarch64) as well as intel systems 
> (x86_64):
> https://ports.macports.org/port/lilypond/builds/?builder_name__name=12_arm64_name__name=12_x86_64
> 
> Which appears to work fine on my M1 MacBook Pro (only just started using it; 
> I used the intel-builds of MacPorts for Big Sur on my previous intel-based 
> MacBook Pro and still use those on a Mac Pro 2013 that I still need to 
> upgrade to Monterey some day)
> 
> The ‘quick install’ steps would be:
> - install Xcode including commandine tools (see macports install page for 
> details)
> - Install MacPorts package (see macports install page for details)
> - on the terminal: sudo port install lilypond

The latest development version works, and I gather it does not differ much from 
the "stable" version fairly recent updates (the old development version become 
new stable).

Then the last install step is instead:
  sudo port install lilypond-devel

Also see
  https://ports.macports.org/port/lilypond-devel/
  https://ports.macports.org/port/lilypond/

Re: Windows laptop

[Hans Åberg]

> On 12 Feb 2022, at 10:50, Lukas-Fabian Moser  wrote:
> 
>> I neglected to consider the development releases. I feel so incompetent.
> No need to!
> 
> The term "development" (as opposed to "stable") tends to scare users away. 
> And while it is basically true that
> 
> - the development releases might have syntax changes (that might even be 
> changed again in later development releases)
> - the development releases reflect the current state of cutting-edge 
> development and therefore may contain changes that turn later out to be less 
> than ideal and have to be reverted,
> 
> in practice, the development releases are absolutely suited for everyday 
> production work. The reason is that there's a pretty rigid procedure for 
> adding new changes (commits, merge requests) to LilyPond which includes both 
> a thorough review and automated tests against a very extensive suite of 
> regression tests.

There is currently not so much difference, I would think, since you recently 
have changed version, making the current regular release the old development 
version.

> So, I've always thought that the juxtaposition of "stable" vs. "unstable" 
> releases on the LilyPond home page is not really ideal, as nobody wants to 
> have "unstable" software. But these releases are routinelly stable for use; 
> they're just not guaranteed to be stable in the sense of having frozen 
> feature sets.

I think the terms "development version" is better.

> But: With the newly created binaries for current MacOS, we're actually really 
> at the point where we talk about "new infrastructure, please test and report 
> back if you encounter problems". If you're willing to do that - and the 
> lilypond-user list is a great place for reporting back -, you should be good 
> to go with the new 2.23.6 release. Happy engraving!

The MacPorts version is though still using Guile 1.8, so there is not much 
experimentation there.

Re: Windows laptop

[Hans Åberg]

> On 12 Feb 2022, at 10:21, Jeremiah Reilly  wrote:
> 
> Thank you. I understand your response. MacPorts (sadly) is outside my field 
> of competence. I am component with Terminal, but not with MacPorts. I looked 
> at several user descriptions of installing Lilypond with MacPorts et al. and 
> frankly had no idea of what to do. I will try it, if it comes to that.

You have installing instructions here:
  https://www.macports.org/install.php

If you know how to use Terminal, it should not be a problem. It gives access to 
many Unix program installations. See the homepage:
  https://www.macports.org

Re: Windows laptop

[Hans Åberg]

> On 12 Feb 2022, at 09:31, Jeremiah Reilly  wrote:
> 
> Problem: Lilypond does not run on current MacOS 12.x Monterrey. 

LilyPond runs on MacOS, I use the MacPorts version called lilypond-devel, which 
is currently LilyPond 2.23.6, the latest. They are very quick at updating, so I 
recommend that.

Re: Installing Alternate Music Fonts with Frescobaldi and Homebrew Installation on M1 Mac

[Hans Åberg]

> On 9 Feb 2022, at 22:25, Jesse Wiener  wrote:
> 
> Ok in 2.23.6, it works! I have to put the font into the 
> share/lilypond/2.23.6/fonts/otf folder but the font does change and I don't 
> get the seg fault. 

I think I used something like that at first with the 32-bit app, but then one 
has to put them in again when upgrading, so I switched to put them in as system 
fonts. It does not work in ~/Library/Fonts/ though, so one has to make sure 
they are under the "Computer" heading in the Font Book app, or /Library/Fonts/.

Re: Installing Alternate Music Fonts with Frescobaldi and Homebrew Installation on M1 Mac

[Hans Åberg]

> On 9 Feb 2022, at 21:51, Jesse Wiener  wrote:
> 
> I'll update LilyPond via MacPorts and see what I find. Also, I acknowledge 
> that I need to get better about quoting previous emails. It's been a long 
> long time since I was an active participant in a mailing list.

Indeed, if it prevails with the MacPOrts version, it might be the architecture.

Re: Installing Alternate Music Fonts with Frescobaldi and Homebrew Installation on M1 Mac

[Hans Åberg]

> On 9 Feb 2022, at 21:28, Jean Abou Samra  wrote:
> 
> Le 09/02/2022 à 21:23, Hans Åberg a écrit :
>> I get the warning below repeated a number of times; It would be good if 
>> somebody could explain.
>> % lilypond test-e53smufl.ly
>> GNU LilyPond 2.23.6 (running Guile 1.8)
>> Processing `test-e53smufl.ly'
>> Parsing...
>> Interpreting music...
>> warning: cannot find property type-check for `glyph-name-alist' 
>> (backend-type?).  perhaps a typing error?
>> warning: skipping assignment
>> …
> 
> You need to run convert-ly on the file that is using
> the glyph-name-alist property.

Thanks, it helped. The nee name is alteration-glyph-name-alist.

Re: Installing Alternate Music Fonts with Frescobaldi and Homebrew Installation on M1 Mac

[Hans Åberg]

> On 9 Feb 2022, at 20:12, Jesse Wiener  wrote:
> 
> Yeah - I tried installing them using FontBook before I did anything else. No 
> dice. 

I use LilyPond 2.23.6, MacPorts version on Intel, MacOS 12.2, and it worked 
right now with SMuFl and the font Bravura.otf. I can send you the sample.

I get the warning below repeated a number of times; It would be good if 
somebody could explain.

% lilypond test-e53smufl.ly 
GNU LilyPond 2.23.6 (running Guile 1.8)
Processing `test-e53smufl.ly'
Parsing...
Interpreting music...
warning: cannot find property type-check for `glyph-name-alist' 
(backend-type?).  perhaps a typing error?
warning: skipping assignment
…

Re: Installing Alternate Music Fonts with Frescobaldi and Homebrew Installation on M1 Mac

[Hans Åberg]

> On 9 Feb 2022, at 00:03, Jesse Wiener  wrote:
> 
> I have an M1 mac running Monterey. I use Frescobaldi and my LilyPond install 
> was done with Homebrew. It all works wonderfully well. 
> 
> My question is: 
> 
> Is there some way to install alternate music fonts with this setup?

I think just installing them as system fonts should work. Open the Font Book 
app and drop them there (or put them in /Library/Fonts/ say from the Finder).

Re: Engraving chords with the same note twice, but different accidentals

[Hans Åberg]

> On 3 Feb 2022, at 19:04, Knute Snortum  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Feb 3, 2022 at 9:32 AM Leo Correia de Verdier
>  wrote:
>> 
>> On Thu, Feb 3, 2022, 11:51 AM Kieren MacMillan 
>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi all,
>>> 
 Speaking as a keyboard player (and lilypond novice) I would recommend 
 re-spelling the a flat as a g sharp! Sometimes, theory has to take a 
 backseat to readability.
>>> 
>>> If theoretical correctness (or, say, accuracy to a previous source) isn't a 
>>> requirement, then I agree with Charlie: this is a moment in which, as a 
>>> keyboard player, I'd much rather see two different notes [by pitch name].
>>> 
>>> Otherwise, I'd say the split-stem convention is [perhaps 
>>> counterintuitively?!] more readable for me. If you want to do this in 
>>> Lilypond, I'm pretty sure Harm has solved this particular issue (see e.g., 
>>> https://archiv.lilypondforum.de/index.php/topic,1176.msg6932.html#msg6932).
> 
> Ok, the first attachment is using Harm's splayed stem chord function.
> Better?  Worse?
> 
> Respelling the chord using a "gs" for the "af" is a possibility, but
> what about respelling the "a" as a "bff"?  The second attachment shows
> how that would look.

This seems to be the theoretically correct, as you have a number of persistent 
A♭, and above a B♭ which is lowered chromatically, so it becomes a B턫 then.

One example of a playability concern is for an orchestral harp, which can set 
pedal flats and sharps as in a key signature, but can not change the pedals 
fast enough during performance. Then it must be a G♯ and an A; letting the 
harpist do the respelling costs money (according to Blatter).

Re: trillSpan question:

[Hans Åberg]

> On 28 Jan 2022, at 01:03, Kenneth Wolcott  wrote:
> 
>  I have trouble understanding how to implement the \startTrillSpan
> and \stopTrillSpan.
…
>  Another related question: what is the difference in the actual
> performance of the two types?

The trill symbol only applies to the note it is written above, so if the latter 
is tied to one or more following notes, one must make clear which ones of those 
the trilling should be extended to. The notation says nothing about how the 
trilled should be performed other than that.

Then \stopTrillSpan should be put after the last of those notes that should be 
trilled.

There could be other uses, but that us how I think of it.

Re: Persian accidentals (koron and sori)

[Hans Åberg]

> On 6 Dec 2021, at 15:49, Werner LEMBERG  wrote:
> 
 https://w3c.github.io/smufl/latest/tables/persian-accidentals.html
>>> 
>>> Yes, and it is soo ugly.
>> 
>> It is best consulting some with traditional Persian sheet music.
>> But the few ones I have seen tend to be hand drawn, not of very high
>> quality, but similar.
>> 
>> The accidentals were designed by Ali-Naqi Vaziri, and became popular
>> for use in Persian sheet music.
>> 
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali-Naqi_Vaziri
> 
> I know, thanks.  Here you can find some glyph examples
> 
>  https://corp.unicode.org/~roozbeh/sori-koron.pdf

Your design is similar to the first scanned example, so perhaps it is OK to 
sync them with the standard accidentals then.

Perhaps Adam Good has something to say (CC-ed).

Re: Persian accidentals (koron and sori)

[Hans Åberg]

> On 6 Dec 2021, at 15:34, Werner LEMBERG  wrote:
> 
>>> In case there are experts on Persian music notation: please have a
>>> look here
>>> 
>>> https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/merge_requests/1047
>>> 
>>> and comment on the design.
>> 
>> Here is how they look at SMuFL. Rather thin and of equal thickness,
>> contrary to the standard accidentals.
>> 
>> https://w3c.github.io/smufl/latest/tables/persian-accidentals.html
> 
> Yes, and it is soo ugly.

It is best consulting some with traditional Persian sheet music. But the few 
ones I have seen tend to be hand drawn, not of very high quality, but similar.

The accidentals were designed by Ali-Naqi Vaziri, and became popular for use in 
Persian sheet music.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali-Naqi_Vaziri

Re: Persian accidentals (koron and sori)

[Hans Åberg]

> On 6 Dec 2021, at 12:10, Werner LEMBERG  wrote:
> 
> In case there are experts on Persian music notation: please have a
> look here
> 
>  https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/merge_requests/1047
> 
> and comment on the design.

Here is how they look at SMuFL. Rather thin and of equal thickness, contrary to 
the standard accidentals.

https://w3c.github.io/smufl/latest/tables/persian-accidentals.html

Re: CPU stress tests for LilyPond

[Hans Åberg]

> On 2 Dec 2021, at 02:41, Paolo Prete  wrote:
> 
> Hello Hans,
> 
> I don't think this test can give reliable results for what we need to compare.
> With my processor (Intel Celeron N3350) it took 96 seconds to compile MSDN.ly 
> 
> But my CPU is listed with score 287:
> https://browser.geekbench.com/processors/intel-celeron-n3350
> ---> (1712 / 287)
> 
> From what I see,  is it true that geekbench 5 is single core, but it 
> intensively uses RAM and the test we need should not be focused on RAM. I 
> would consider a Gzip compression test, instead.
> 
> https://openbenchmarking.org/vs/Processor/Apple%20M1,Intel%20Celeron%20J3455
> 
> (note that it compares Apple M1 with Celeron J3455, which is NOT my CPU, but 
> it should be very similar for single-core tests.)

On the M1, Lilypond may run in interpreted mode, emulating Intel, which is 
slower than native Apple Silicon code. MacPorts can make native code, but I do 
not know if it currently does with Lilypond. 

Re: CPU stress tests for LilyPond

[Hans Åberg]

> On 30 Nov 2021, at 19:11, Jean Abou Samra  wrote:
> 
> Le 30/11/2021 à 15:22, Hans Åberg a écrit :
>> It gives errors with LilyPond 2.23.4.
> 
> You should upgrade automatically using convert-ly.
> While leaving a few warnings, it does a pretty good
> job on the file.

I mentioned it to point out that in the current form it is not usable as a 
benchmark test.

Re: CPU stress tests for LilyPond

[Hans Åberg]

So, to illustrate the idea of using the benchmark at the list below, it might 
be the Mac mini (Late 2020) with single-core score 1712 and the other Macs of 
this year have a similar performance. It gives for the iMac 2008 used a 
single-core score 372 (depending on model), and it took 4–5 minutes to compile 
the same example. Then 1712/407 = 4.6, and dividing 4 minutes with that gives 
53 seconds, and this ignores speedups in lilypond self, but it seems one can 
get a rough idea of performance this way.

https://browser.geekbench.com/mac-benchmarks


> On 30 Nov 2021, at 16:36, Jacques Menu  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Here is what I get for this 102 page score:
> 
> jacquesmenu@macmini > time lilypond MSDM.ly
> GNU LilyPond 2.22.1
> ;;; note: auto-compilation is enabled, set GUILE_AUTO_COMPILE=0
> ;;;   or pass the --no-auto-compile argument to disable.
> … … … …
> real  0m39.590s
> user  0m37.119s
> sys   0m2.285s
> 
> jacquesmenu@macmini > ls -sal MSDM.*
>8 -rw---@ 1 jacquesmenu  staff2695 Nov 17  2016 MSDM.ly
>   88 -rw-r--r--  1 jacquesmenu  staff   42641 Nov 30 16:32 MSDM.mid
> 1888 -rw-r--r--  1 jacquesmenu  staff  963019 Nov 30 16:32 MSDM.pdf
> 
> The machine is a Mac Mini M1, 8GB RAM, 256 GB disk.
> 
> JM
> 
>> Le 30 nov. 2021 à 15:28, Hans Åberg  a écrit :
>> 
>> 
>>> On 30 Nov 2021, at 14:26, Paolo Prete  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I need to buy a new PC, more powerful than the one I own. The CPU and RAM 
>>> must be chosen on the time required to produce LilyPond output. Are there 
>>> any test sheets with different CPUs and the time they take to output a 
>>> score that takes a long time to compile? In case this doesn't exist 
>>> specifically for LilyPond, is there anything equivalent I can use?
>> 
>> There are general benchmarks, like those below, maybe the single core ones 
>> can be useful.
>> 
>> https://browser.geekbench.com
>> https://browser.geekbench.com/mac-benchmarks
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 

Re: CPU stress tests for LilyPond

[Hans Åberg]

> On 30 Nov 2021, at 14:26, Paolo Prete  wrote:
> 
> I need to buy a new PC, more powerful than the one I own. The CPU and RAM 
> must be chosen on the time required to produce LilyPond output. Are there any 
> test sheets with different CPUs and the time they take to output a score that 
> takes a long time to compile? In case this doesn't exist specifically for 
> LilyPond, is there anything equivalent I can use?

There are general benchmarks, like those below, maybe the single core ones can 
be useful.

https://browser.geekbench.com
https://browser.geekbench.com/mac-benchmarks

Re: CPU stress tests for LilyPond

[Hans Åberg]

> On 30 Nov 2021, at 14:47, Karlin High  wrote:
> 
> On 11/30/2021 7:26 AM, Paolo Prete wrote:
>> Are there any test sheets with different CPUs and the time they take to 
>> output a score that takes a long time to compile?
> 
> Search the archives for Carver MDSM.
> 
> 
> 
> It's a large project that has often been used for performance comparisons.

It gives errors with LilyPond 2.23.4.

Re: LilyPond 2.23.3 installer on MacOS 11

[Hans Åberg]

> On 2 Nov 2021, at 08:52, Thomas Scharkowski  wrote:
> 
> 
>>> 
>>> Am 31.10.2021 um 18:36 schrieb Hans Åberg :
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>> On 31 Oct 2021, at 11:43, Thomas Scharkowski  
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>> 
>>>>> Hi, I have installed this version on a fresh MacOS 12  and get this error 
>>>>> message:
>>>> 
>>>> I have made an installer using MacPorts directly on MacOS 12; see separate 
>>>> post.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> I get the same error with this one.
>>> 
>>> On my other machine (MacBook Pro) I had installed LilyPond with MacPorts, 
>>> Frescobaldi are exactly the same on both machines (I once had different 
>>> versions of Frescobaldi 3.1.3.).
>>> I wanted to avoid installing MacPorts on my iMac, but perhaps I will try 
>>> this way.
>> 
>> I have installed LilyPond via MacPorts now (it took several hours for all 
>> this stuff) - now it works!
>> :-)
> 
> macOS 12.0.1
> iMac 14,2
> Xcode 13.1
> MacPorts 2.7.1
> 
> The Frescobaldi version is this one, no bug here:

It is actually a feature, not a bug, I think: LilyPond is set to call some 
packages by name and not absolute paths, which is a carried over to the 
MacPorts version. So if one does not set PATH, there will be an error. When 
installing MacPorts, it used to add this to PATH, but there is a different 
addition for the installer.

Re: LilyPond 2.23.3 installer on MacOS 11

[Hans Åberg]

> On 1 Nov 2021, at 11:33, Thomas Scharkowski  wrote:
> 
> Am 31.10.2021 um 18:36 schrieb Hans Åberg :
>> 
>> 
>>> On 31 Oct 2021, at 11:43, Thomas Scharkowski  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi, I have installed this version on a fresh MacOS 12  and get this error 
>>> message:
>> 
>> I have made an installer using MacPorts directly on MacOS 12; see separate 
>> post.
>> 
>> 
> I get the same error with this one.

I can reproduce the error, both with the installer version and the regular 
MacPorts version, if the environment variable PATH is not properly set.

For the installer, it works with:
export 
PATH=/opt/lilypond/bin:/opt/lilypond/sbin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/usr/X11/bin

And for the MacPorts version, it works with:
export 
PATH=/opt/local/bin:/opt/local/sbin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/usr/X11/bin 

The trailing directories are what comes with the MacOS installation.

To see the error in both variants, installer and MacPorts, it suffices to set 
to use the system searchpaths only:
export PATH=/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/sbin:/sbin:/usr/X11/bin

Re: LilyPond 2.23.3 installer on MacOS 11

[Hans Åberg]

> On 1 Nov 2021, at 11:33, Thomas Scharkowski  wrote:
> 
> Am 31.10.2021 um 18:36 schrieb Hans Åberg :
>> 
>> 
>>> On 31 Oct 2021, at 11:43, Thomas Scharkowski  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi, I have installed this version on a fresh MacOS 12  and get this error 
>>> message:
>> 
>> I have made an installer using MacPorts directly on MacOS 12; see separate 
>> post.
>> 
>> 
> I get the same error with this one.

When I made the first installer, I compiled a small snippet with it and it 
worked. A suggestion in this thread is that the error has to do with the 
searchpaths PATH.

> On my other machine (MacBook Pro) I had installed LilyPond with MacPorts, 
> Frescobaldi are exactly the same on both machines (I once had different 
> versions of Frescobaldi 3.1.3.).
> I wanted to avoid installing MacPorts on my iMac, but perhaps I will try this 
> way.

Then you also get the updates when they appear.

Re: LilyPond 2.23.3 installer on MacOS 11

[Hans Åberg]

> On 31 Oct 2021, at 11:43, Thomas Scharkowski  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi, I have installed this version on a fresh MacOS 12  and get this error 
> message:

I have made an installer using MacPorts directly on MacOS 12; see separate post.

LilyPond 2.23.3 installer on MacOS 12

[Hans Åberg]

This is a LilyPond 2.23.3 installer, latest unstable release, for use on MacOS 
12, made from MacPorts lilypond-devel, available on the link below [1]. Does 
not work on earlier MacOS versions.

It installs in /opt/lilypond/, with the program in /opt/lilypond/bin/lilypond, 
and /opt/lilypond/bin/ contains other LilyPond programs.

If you have already something installed in this directory, it may be prudent to 
remove it first. This can be done by the command
sudo rm -rf /opt/lilypond

1. https://web2.storegate.com/share/GKHFfnf


It may be the case that 'lilypond' is best to be run from a script that sets 
LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 (which otherwise on MacOS is LC_CTYPE=UTF-8). It can be 
created and installed as follows:

In Terminal write (^D is D):
% cat > lilypond
export LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8
export LANG=en_US.UTF-8
exec /opt/lilypond/bin/lilypond "$@“
^D

% chmod a+x lilypond
% sudo -s cp lilypond /usr/local/bin/lilypond

The program can then be called by 'lilypond' in Terminal, as /usr/local/bin/ is 
in the system searchpath.

And do 'rm lilypond' if you do not want to keep the local copy of the script.

Re: LilyPond 2.23.3 installer on MacOS 11

[Hans Åberg]

It is available on MacPorts MacOS 12, but I made this installer version for 
MacOS 11 to make sure there is at least one available.

To install on MacPorts, I use for latest unstable release:
  sudo port install lilypond-devel
The stable release is also available by
  sudo port install lilypond
The binaries end up in /opt/local/bin on these.



> On 31 Oct 2021, at 13:19, Jefferson Felix  wrote:
> 
> As an alternative, you can use homebrew to install last development version:
> brew install --HEAD lilypond
> 
> Pros:
> - the latest current development version with latest features;
> - trusted sources (homebrew and official lilypond development repository);
> - install all dependencies automatically
> 
> Cons:
> - it compiles from source code (could be take a while);
> - it installs the current development version (2.23.5) and can have
> unknown bugs;
> - It uses guile 2.2 (a little bit more slower to startup);
> - it install texlive (3.6 GB), but you can remove texlive after installation
> 

LilyPond 2.23.3 installer on MacOS 11

[Hans Åberg]

This is a LilyPond 2.23.3 installer, latest unstable release, for use on MacOS 
11, made from MacPorts lilypond-devel, available on the link below [1].

Does not work on earlier MacOS versions. Might possibly work on MacOS 12 if 
installed on MacOS 11 before updating.

It installs in /opt/lilypond/, with the program in /opt/lilypond/bin/lilypond, 
and /opt/lilypond/bin/ contains other LilyPond programs.

If you have already something installed in this directory, it may be prudent to 
remove it first. This can be done by the command
sudo rm -rf /opt/lilypond

1. https://web2.storegate.com/share/nI5ql1K


It may be the case that 'lilypond' is best to be run from a script that sets 
LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8 (which otherwise on MacOS is LC_CTYPE=UTF-8). It can be 
created and installed as follows:

In Terminal write (^D is D):
% cat > lilypond
export LC_CTYPE=en_US.UTF-8
export LANG=en_US.UTF-8
exec /opt/lilypond/bin/lilypond "$@“
^D

% chmod a+x lilypond
% sudo -s cp lilypond /usr/local/bin/lilypond

The program can then be called by 'lilypond' in Terminal, as /usr/local/bin/ is 
in the system searchpath.

And do 'rm lilypond' if you do not want to keep the local copy of the script.

Re: Ornamentation in Bach's piece

[Hans Åberg]

> On 19 Sep 2021, at 14:44, 田村淳  wrote:
> 
> Hello Lukas,
> 
>> 2021/09/19 21:14、Lukas-Fabian Moser のメール:
>> 
>> Hi Jun,
>> 
>> Am 19.09.21 um 09:07 schrieb 田村淳:
>>> Is there a snipett to realize this?
>>> This is from the 3rd movement of the Sonata for Viola da Gamba and 
>>> Harpsichord in G-minor, BWV 1029, by J. S. Bach.
>>> 
>>> Thanks in advance for your kind help.
>>> 
>>> Jun
>>> 
>>> 
>> I think that's an instance of
>> 
>> https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/issues/6127
>> 
>> https://lsr.di.unimi.it/LSR/Item?u=1=720
>> 
>> https://gitlab.com/lilypond/lilypond/-/issues/503
>> 
>> Lukas
>> 
> Thank you. My question/request is identical to the issue #6127.
> 
> According to the Wikipedia article 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slide_(musical_ornament), the Schleifer can be 
> used for arbitrary interval while J. S. Bach seems to have used it for third 
> very often. I think that a solution with a fixed symbol for third would be 
> beneficial at least for those who have been typesetting Bach’s music often.

The Harvard Concise discusses it in the article on double appoggiatura, 
essentially a variation of two merged appoggiaturas a third apart. The symbol 
itself is called a direct, custos in Latin, in early manuscripts used at the 
end of staff to warn about the next note.

Re: Rendering athenian Sagittal using microlily

[Hans Åberg]

> On 13 Aug 2021, at 22:16, Garek Dyszel  wrote:
> 
>> I made files for E53 and E72 using Helmholtz-Ellis notation with SMuFL
>> names and the Bravura font. It would seem to suffice to change the
>> names and the tuning. I'll send you them separately.
> 
> This nearly does the job.

Great!

> Both the E53 and E72 examples you sent render
> flawlessly. I ran a simple string replacement in sagji.ly (attached)
> based on your idea, and about 75% of the Sagittal characters render
> now. The replacement is based on the Sagittal SMuFL character map at
> 
> https://sagittal.org/Sagittal-SMuFL-Map.ods
> 
> Some of the note names in the character map above don't exactly match
> with the names used for the accidentals in the original sagji.ly
> file. I'm working on a script to fix this and will post it when I
> finish.

The names are in the file smufldata.ily. So can be searched, or you might make 
your own preferably called something else.

Re: Rendering athenian Sagittal using microlily

[Hans Åberg]

> On 13 Aug 2021, at 09:22, Graham Breed  wrote:
> 
>> I'm having trouble getting Graham Breed's microlily to engrave
>> athenian Sagittal accidentals properly in *.pdf files, using the
>> Bravura font.
>> The accidentals are replaced with random Unicode symbols (such as \rho
>> and \xi). An example *.pdf with this issue is attached.
> 
> My version of the script won't work with Bravura.  It's written for
> the old Sagittal font.  Bravura would be better but it means changing
> all the numbers — including the code points, as you've noticed!

I made files for E53 and E72 using Helmholtz-Ellis notation with SMuFL names 
and the Bravura font. It would seem to suffice to change the names and the 
tuning. I'll send you them separately.

Re: Persian music package

[Hans Åberg]

It is on stringed instruments one gets the Pythagorean tuning. A flute does not 
have such relative pitch references.


> On 6 Aug 2021, at 21:41, Kees van den Doel  wrote:
> 
> Excuse me for being direct, but this is nonsense. It's nice you've read that 
> (outdated) book but I've been actively performing Persian music for decades 
> and I know how we tune. If you want to learn check out my website 
> https://persianney.com.
> 
> Kees
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Aug 6, 2021 at 11:47 AM Hans Åberg  wrote:
> 
>> On 6 Aug 2021, at 18:46, Kees van den Doel  wrote:
>> 
>> Well I know Persian music very well, and the tuning as-is is perfect, so I'm 
>> not sure what we are talking about here.
>> Persian music doesn't "raise by commas". There are no "different tunings", 
>> there is the current MIDI tuning which is correct and anything different is 
>> wrong.
> 
> The values you have set are wrong from the theoretical point of view:
> 
> Persian music uses the Pythagorean tuning of which E53 is a close 
> approximation. The average values that Hormoz Farhat's Dastgah book indicates 
> is a neutral second raised about two commas from the minor second, which is 
> what one typically uses.
> 
> E53 has a sharp that is 5 commas, but a minor second m = 4 and a major second 
> M = 5, which is what Graham Breed's file regular.ly does.
> 
> You have merely divided the LilyPond sharp into 5 parts, then using the 
> theoretical comma values indicated above, without adjusting the minor and 
> major seconds, so you land on E60.
> 

Re: Persian music package

[Hans Åberg]

> On 6 Aug 2021, at 18:46, Kees van den Doel  wrote:
> 
> Well I know Persian music very well, and the tuning as-is is perfect, so I'm 
> not sure what we are talking about here.
> Persian music doesn't "raise by commas". There are no "different tunings", 
> there is the current MIDI tuning which is correct and anything different is 
> wrong.

The values you have set are wrong from the theoretical point of view:

Persian music uses the Pythagorean tuning of which E53 is a close 
approximation. The average values that Hormoz Farhat's Dastgah book indicates 
is a neutral second raised about two commas from the minor second, which is 
what one typically uses.

E53 has a sharp that is 5 commas, but a minor second m = 4 and a major second M 
= 5, which is what Graham Breed's file regular.ly does.

You have merely divided the LilyPond sharp into 5 parts, then using the 
theoretical comma values indicated above, without adjusting the minor and major 
seconds, so you land on E60.

Re: Persian music package

[Hans Åberg]

> On 6 Aug 2021, at 16:45, Kees van den Doel  wrote:
> 
> Please include the list in reply.

As you posted an email intended to be private, a correction: I did not 
misremember, you really do use E60. :-)

> I have no Idea what E72 and E60 etc. is, to me it sounds like European 
> freeway names. 

It is Scala notation for the ETs: E72 = 72 ET, etc.

> If you guys want to merge it into main LP distribution that's great, and I'll 
> be happy to help on Persian music issues but I'm fairly useless on technical 
> details.
> 
> The docs inside persian.ly are intended to give you all the info on Persian 
> music needed for correct typesetting, but if something is lacking let me know 
> and I'll add it when I update the package.
> 
> However you can always check how things should look/sound by downloading the 
> original package as it is working perfectly with old LP (and probably with 
> new, but I haven't regressed all my scores)  and has been extensively used 
> for over a decade.
> MIDI tuning  is very important esp. if you are learning Persian tuning.

If this is the case, you should use preferably E53, but as it requires Graham 
Breed's file regular.y which currently is not in the LilyPond distribution, the 
next best thing would be E72, and as Persian music raises by to commas (E72 
tonesteps), it is in actuality in E36. So I would recommend using those. It 
would be nice to hear what somebody that knows this music well thinks about how 
these different tuning sound with Persian music.

Re: Persian music package

[Hans Åberg]

> On 31 Jul 2021, at 21:03, Kees van den Doel  wrote:
> 
> Hi Hans,
> Thanks but I don't see how this helps.
> I don't see the Koron or Sori anywhere in those files you sent.

Change the names for the double arrowed accidentals to the ones you want to 
use. They are in smufldata.ily.

> Tuning is defined correctly in persian.ly already so there is no problem to 
> solve there.  

I recall you used E60. E72 might be a better choice. It is your choice though.

Re: Persian music package

[Hans Åberg]

> On 31 Jul 2021, at 19:41, Kees van den Doel  wrote:
> 
> A decade ago I wrote the attached header persian.ly which supports Persian 
> music notation + microtuning.
> A hack with a downloaded font is necessary as the Persian microtonal symbols, 
> the koron and sori are not available in Lilypond,
> Strange, as these have been standard for over a century and there is a 
> substantial body of music written requiring it.
> I'm still getting occasional requests for the package and I've used it to 
> transcribe and compose many hours of Persian traditional music.
…
> Anyone have an idea on how I can get it to work with current version?

You might switch to using SmuFl and E53/E72; the accidentals are available in 
the Bravura font. E53 can now be used with Graham Breed's file regular.ly. For 
ETs multiples of 12, it is not needed.

I send you files for E53 and E72 with Helmholtz-Ellis notation. For Persian 
music, the double comma accidental would be suitable.

I recommend using E72 because relative E53/Pythagorean tuning, E72 adjusts the 
diatonic scale to E12, but the neutral seconds change only a few cents.

Adam Good reworked the Turkish makam file, and expressed interest in Arabic and 
Persian music, too. He also felt the the E53/E72 combination was good.

Re: Problem

[Hans Åberg]

> On 30 Jul 2021, at 11:43, ole  wrote:
> 
> Hi, I'am a longtime time-to-time Lilypond user and now all of a sudden I get 
> the following error warning:
> 
> dyld: Library not loaded: @executable_path/../lib/libintl.8.dylib
>  Referenced from: 
> /var/folders/41/ytq6d2yj2fxf1cqm4kb39j0hgn/T/AppTranslocation/554AB271-F356-4CB6-9E71-0522C01B4E23/d/LilyPond.app/Contents/Resources/bin/lilypond
>  Reason: image not found
> 
> What am I missing?
> I'am on a Macbook Pro 2019, Mac OS X.14.6 aka Mojave
> 
> Thanks for hints!

Maybe this has something to do with it.

https://wiki.keyboardmaestro.com/assistance/Translocation_Problem

Re: Assistance to Create a Recipe for 41-EDO and "Kite Guitar" Tablature

[Hans Åberg]

> On 29 Jul 2021, at 13:29, devin@ulibarri.website wrote:
> 
> On 2021-07-26 04:09, Hans Åberg wrote:
>> I'll send you code for E53
> 
> Thank you for the tip and the files.
> 
> Kite Guitar Fretting (skipping every other EDO step, and tuning adjacent 
> strings odd/even), which helps its physical playability, only works for 41EDO.
> 
> That being said, we will take these files and see if we can modify them for 
> our news, or otherwise learn from them, to achieve our goals. I really 
> appreciate you sharing your work and knowledge.

To adapt the file e53smufl.ly, change 53 to your ET of choice. Then the 
corresponding EqualFiftythreePitchNames should have as denominator 2 times the 
value of the sharp in the ET. In E53, the minor second m = 4, and the major 
second M = 9, so its sharp ♯ = M - m = 5. So this gives the denominator is 2⋅5 
= 10. The factor 6 comes from that LilyPond counts 6 M per octave, and 1/2 is 
the value of a sharp.

Re: Assistance to Create a Recipe for 41-EDO and "Kite Guitar" Tablature

[Hans Åberg]

> On 26 Jul 2021, at 00:15, devin@ulibarri.website wrote:
> 
> I need help from users who have some experience with microtonality (or 
> overrides in general) in Lilypond to create a recipe for lilypond notation 
> for the Kite Guitar (kiteguitar.com). The Kite Guitar uses 41 equal divisions 
> of the octave in a clever way, which balances practicality with playability 
> to get a very close approximation to 7-limit Just Intonation.

I'll send you code for E53, which is a better choice (below), for use with the 
SMuFL Bravura font and Helmoltz-Ellis notation, but you can change the ET if 
you so like.

E53 is very close to the Pythagorean tuning, but also to Just Intonation and 
the 7th partial, by lowering 1 or 2 commas (tonesteps).

If one wants to get close to E12, one can use E72 instead: It adjusts the 
diatonic scale from Pythagorean to E12, but the microtonal neutral seconds 
change only a few cents.

Graham Breed's file regular.ly is only needed for ETs that are not multiples of 
12.

Re: Can I put the F key sign # down one octave? *KeySignature*

[Hans Åberg]

> On 30 Jun 2021, at 20:47, Lukas-Fabian Moser  wrote:
> 
> So, "three sharps" (but not in modern arrangement) for the two violins, "four 
> sharps" (which are actually three) for soprano and bass. That's interesting 
> insofar as today we're basically used to only counting the total number of 
> flats/sharps. So, if one looks only at the soprano line, one might mistake 
> the key signature for e major, but in fact it's a major. (As an additional 
> twist, Heinichen's example piece is actually in e major, but he writes all 
> the d-sharp's in-place.)

Traditionally, key signatures are merely used to simplify notation, not to 
indicate the key and scale. Harmonic minor is rarely getting such a key 
signature, and it is not possible to have a single key signature in melodic 
minor for the variable scale degrees.

Non-standard positions appear in Turkish and Persian music, where they can be 
microtonal accidentals. In Turkish music, the name of the makam is typically 
written over the key signature. In Arabic and Bulgarian music, one may not 
write a key signature.

Re: What is happening on the email thing? CONTENTS DELETED

[Hans Åberg]

> On 24 Jun 2021, at 21:52, Jean Abou Samra  wrote:
> 
> Le 24/06/2021 à 21:44, Hans Åberg a écrit :
>>> On 24 Jun 2021, at 21:21, Karlin High  wrote:
>>> 
>>> On 6/24/2021 1:46 PM, darki...@jesusgod-pope666.info wrote:
>>>> Why are so many contents being deleted on the email list
>>> I understand the Nabble website is an effort to have a forum-like interface 
>>> for the email list. If Nabble is having trouble somehow, past messages 
>>> should be available on the official GNU Lists archive.
>>> 
>>> <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/lilypond-user/>
>> I have not deleted any of my emails, which is not possible even for what 
>> know with email, and I received copies back and they also appear in the 
>> archive. On the Usenet, there is an option to delete sent messages, but 
>> servers may not honor that request.
> From the French-speaking list, it seems to me that
> all messages that have been posted via email are
> being marked as deleted when further responses
> are sent via Nabble.

I have only used email, complemented by the list archive at need.

Re: What is happening on the email thing? CONTENTS DELETED

[Hans Åberg]

> On 24 Jun 2021, at 21:21, Karlin High  wrote:
> 
> On 6/24/2021 1:46 PM, darki...@jesusgod-pope666.info wrote:
>> Why are so many contents being deleted on the email list
> 
> I understand the Nabble website is an effort to have a forum-like interface 
> for the email list. If Nabble is having trouble somehow, past messages should 
> be available on the official GNU Lists archive.
> 
> 

I have not deleted any of my emails, which is not possible even for what know 
with email, and I received copies back and they also appear in the archive. On 
the Usenet, there is an option to delete sent messages, but servers may not 
honor that request.