Re: Last note of a first alternative is a tie to the first note in the repeat; how to engrave this?
> I guess I was thinking it might be easier/clearer for documentation, > since people wouldn't have to search for "repeat tie" as opposed to > "laissez vibrer" to get the two different versions of what is > ultimately the same thing. The current git version of the NR has the index entries tie, from nothing tie, to nothing It is straightforward to add more entries to the index, but which one? Werner
Re: Last note of a first alternative is a tie to the first note in the repeat; how to engrave this?
On 2022-07-28 6:29 am, David Kastrup wrote: \laissezvibrer might be an alias, though I am not sure whether it would not, in that function, be deserving of some tweaks giving it a longer minimal visual length. Isn't it also conventional to annotate it "l.v."? If we had a more general semi-tie command, \laissezVibrer could sit on top of that and, as you say, tweak it to be more fitting of the original function name. -- Aaron Hill
Re: Last note of a first alternative is a tie to the first note in the repeat; how to engrave this?
Hi David, > There isn't much of an incentive to ever have the halftie direction > computed in any manner, so giving the user interface to them another > hoop does not seem to give any return to the user. Fair point… I guess I was thinking it might be easier/clearer for documentation, since people wouldn't have to search for "repeat tie" as opposed to "laissez vibrer" to get the two different versions of what is ultimately the same thing. Cheers, Kieren.
Re: Last note of a first alternative is a tie to the first note in the repeat; how to engrave this?
Kieren MacMillan writes: > Hi all, > >> I don't see why. They are halfties. > > So why not \halftie #LEFT and \halftie #RIGHT? > (i.e., they're both halfties, so just have a direction parameter) There isn't much of an incentive to ever have the halftie direction computed in any manner, so giving the user interface to them another hoop does not seem to give any return to the user. -- David Kastrup
Re: Last note of a first alternative is a tie to the first note in the repeat; how to engrave this?
Hi all, > I don't see why. They are halfties. So why not \halftie #LEFT and \halftie #RIGHT? (i.e., they're both halfties, so just have a direction parameter) Just a thought. Kieren.
Re: Last note of a first alternative is a tie to the first note in the repeat; how to engrave this?
Paul Hodges writes: > From: David Kastrup > There is also \startTrillSpan/\stopTrillSpan, \startGroup/\stopGroup, > \startGraceSlur/\stopGraceSlur, \startTextSpan/\stopTextSpan, > \startMeasureCount/\stopMeasureCount, > \startMeasureSpanner/\stopMeasureSpanner . > > So there is a clear pattern of \startItem and \endItem being opposite > ends of a single thing. > > > But the same words used a bit differently might work, so that "the > start of a tie" could be called \tieStart and so on (\tieEnd, > \slurStart, \slurEnd). start/end is just not a pairing in LilyPond, even if it works perfectly fine in the English language as such. -- David Kastrup
Re: Last note of a first alternative is a tie to the first note in the repeat; how to engrave this?
From: David Kastrup There is also \startTrillSpan/\stopTrillSpan, \startGroup/\stopGroup, \startGraceSlur/\stopGraceSlur, \startTextSpan/\stopTextSpan, \startMeasureCount/\stopMeasureCount, \startMeasureSpanner/\stopMeasureSpanner . So there is a clear pattern of \startItem and \endItem being opposite ends of a single thing. But the same words used a bit differently might work, so that "the start of a tie" could be called \tieStart and so on (\tieEnd, \slurStart, \slurEnd). Paul
Re: Last note of a first alternative is a tie to the first note in the repeat; how to engrave this?
Simon Albrecht writes: > On 28/07/2022 16:25, David Kastrup wrote: >> There is also \startTrillSpan/\stopTrillSpan, \startGroup/\stopGroup, >> \startGraceSlur/\stopGraceSlur, \startTextSpan/\stopTextSpan, >> \startMeasureCount/\stopMeasureCount, >> \startMeasureSpanner/\stopMeasureSpanner . On the opposite side, there >> is \endSpanners. >> >> All of these strictly imply the beginning/end of typesetting, but then >> the problem of halfties is that the usual connection of beginning/end of >> typesetting with the flow of time is not there. > Exactly, I think this would be very misleading. I don't see why. They are halfties. When there is a discontinuity between timeflow and typesetting direction, you have to pick one of them to describe the direction of the tie. As I wrote, left/right don't work well on their own, so I picked the timeflow-based one. Start and stop of a full tie are quite unambigous referral points. Note also that I did not suggest \startHalfTie since indeed a half tie does not "start". The one problem I see is that this naming might get into conflict with some possible future interface to cross-voice ties. But even then one could stipulate that actual cross-voice ties specified in that manner need a non-empty spanner-id . >> I was thinking of \leftTie/\rightTie instead, but then is the tie >> pointing to the left, or is it supposed to be at the left end of a >> repeat section? I thought start/stop would be less ambiguous even if >> somewhat uglier. > > I find it difficult to come up with something succinct— > \halfTieToTheLeft and \halfTieToTheRight would be clear, but way too > cumbersome. Actually, I think \halfTieLeft and \halfTieRight would > work just fine. There’s potential for confusion, but not if it’s clear > that the direction is from the note head. Does that make sense? Is it clear "that the direction is from the note head"? -- David Kastrup
Re: Last note of a first alternative is a tie to the first note in the repeat; how to engrave this?
On 28/07/2022 16:25, David Kastrup wrote: There is also \startTrillSpan/\stopTrillSpan, \startGroup/\stopGroup, \startGraceSlur/\stopGraceSlur, \startTextSpan/\stopTextSpan, \startMeasureCount/\stopMeasureCount, \startMeasureSpanner/\stopMeasureSpanner . On the opposite side, there is \endSpanners. All of these strictly imply the beginning/end of typesetting, but then the problem of halfties is that the usual connection of beginning/end of typesetting with the flow of time is not there. Exactly, I think this would be very misleading. I was thinking of \leftTie/\rightTie instead, but then is the tie pointing to the left, or is it supposed to be at the left end of a repeat section? I thought start/stop would be less ambiguous even if somewhat uglier. I find it difficult to come up with something succinct— \halfTieToTheLeft and \halfTieToTheRight would be clear, but way too cumbersome. Actually, I think \halfTieLeft and \halfTieRight would work just fine. There’s potential for confusion, but not if it’s clear that the direction is from the note head. Does that make sense? Best, Simon
Re: Last note of a first alternative is a tie to the first note in the repeat; how to engrave this?
> Le 28 juil. 2022 à 16:06, Carl Sorensen a écrit : > > > > >> On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 7:30 AM David Kastrup wrote: >> >> The current naming is a drag. >> >> "\repeatTie" and "\laissezvibrer" are a stupid combination of terms for >> the two different half ties you need to deal with in the context of >> repeats or other visual non-linearities. > > I completely agree. Since there are other applications for a half tie, the > name shouldn't be \laissezvibrer. >> >> \startTie and \stopTie would make a lot more sense (even though they >> don't need to be matched at all). \laissezvibrer might be an alias, >> though I am not sure whether it would not, in that function, be >> deserving of some tweaks giving it a longer minimal visual length. > > I might prefer \beginTie and \endTie or \tieBegin and \tieEnd. \startTie > and \stopTie don't seem to match the current usage of \startStaff and > \stopStaff, although I think it's not that big a deal. I think LilyPond’s overwhelming convention is start/end, isn’t it? \startStaff \stopStaff \startTextSpan \stopTextSpan \startMeasureCount \stopMeasureCount \startGroup \stopGroup \startMeasureSpanner \stopMeasureSpanner I can only think of \melismaEnd that uses "end" (and the start command is just \melisma), although I didn’t try hard. >> It could also be complemented by \startSlur and \stopSlur that have >> similar problems but actually differing visuals, and tend to reach >> closer to the respective bar line. >> >> Possibly \startSlur and \stopSlur in >> order to get sensible/matching curvature. > > This sounds like a good proposal to me. But maybe \slurBegin and \slurEnd? > > Carl
Re: Last note of a first alternative is a tie to the first note in the repeat; how to engrave this?
Carl Sorensen writes: > On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 7:30 AM David Kastrup wrote: > >> >> The current naming is a drag. >> >> "\repeatTie" and "\laissezvibrer" are a stupid combination of terms for >> the two different half ties you need to deal with in the context of >> repeats or other visual non-linearities. >> > > I completely agree. Since there are other applications for a half tie, the > name shouldn't be \laissezvibrer. > >> >> \startTie and \stopTie would make a lot more sense (even though they >> don't need to be matched at all). \laissezvibrer might be an alias, >> though I am not sure whether it would not, in that function, be >> deserving of some tweaks giving it a longer minimal visual length. >> > > I might prefer \beginTie and \endTie or \tieBegin and \tieEnd. \startTie > and \stopTie don't seem to match the current usage of \startStaff and > \stopStaff, although I think it's not that big a deal. There is also \startTrillSpan/\stopTrillSpan, \startGroup/\stopGroup, \startGraceSlur/\stopGraceSlur, \startTextSpan/\stopTextSpan, \startMeasureCount/\stopMeasureCount, \startMeasureSpanner/\stopMeasureSpanner . On the opposite side, there is \endSpanners. All of these strictly imply the beginning/end of typesetting, but then the problem of halfties is that the usual connection of beginning/end of typesetting with the flow of time is not there. I was thinking of \leftTie/\rightTie instead, but then is the tie pointing to the left, or is it supposed to be at the left end of a repeat section? I thought start/stop would be less ambiguous even if somewhat uglier. >> It could also be complemented by \startSlur and \stopSlur that have >> similar problems but actually differing visuals, and tend to reach >> closer to the respective bar line. >> >> Possibly \startSlur and \stopSlur in >> order to get sensible/matching curvature. >> > > This sounds like a good proposal to me. But maybe \slurBegin and \slurEnd? See above. -- David Kastrup
Re: Last note of a first alternative is a tie to the first note in the repeat; how to engrave this?
On Thu, Jul 28, 2022 at 7:30 AM David Kastrup wrote: > > The current naming is a drag. > > "\repeatTie" and "\laissezvibrer" are a stupid combination of terms for > the two different half ties you need to deal with in the context of > repeats or other visual non-linearities. > I completely agree. Since there are other applications for a half tie, the name shouldn't be \laissezvibrer. > > \startTie and \stopTie would make a lot more sense (even though they > don't need to be matched at all). \laissezvibrer might be an alias, > though I am not sure whether it would not, in that function, be > deserving of some tweaks giving it a longer minimal visual length. > I might prefer \beginTie and \endTie or \tieBegin and \tieEnd. \startTie and \stopTie don't seem to match the current usage of \startStaff and \stopStaff, although I think it's not that big a deal. > > It could also be complemented by \startSlur and \stopSlur that have > similar problems but actually differing visuals, and tend to reach > closer to the respective bar line. > > Possibly \startSlur and \stopSlur in > order to get sensible/matching curvature. > This sounds like a good proposal to me. But maybe \slurBegin and \slurEnd? Carl
Re: Last note of a first alternative is a tie to the first note in the repeat; how to engrave this?
Kenneth Wolcott writes: > Hi Hwaen and David; > > Thank you very much for your replies. > > It does solve the problem. > > I saw that command but, for some reason I did not think it applied > to my situation. The current naming is a drag. "\repeatTie" and "\laissezvibrer" are a stupid combination of terms for the two different half ties you need to deal with in the context of repeats or other visual non-linearities. \startTie and \stopTie would make a lot more sense (even though they don't need to be matched at all). \laissezvibrer might be an alias, though I am not sure whether it would not, in that function, be deserving of some tweaks giving it a longer minimal visual length. It could also be complemented by \startSlur and \stopSlur that have similar problems but actually differing visuals, and tend to reach closer to the respective bar line. Possibly \startSlur and \stopSlur in order to get sensible/matching curvature. -- David Kastrup
Re: Last note of a first alternative is a tie to the first note in the repeat; how to engrave this?
Hi Hwaen and David; Thank you very much for your replies. It does solve the problem. I saw that command but, for some reason I did not think it applied to my situation. I will try to make a note of this so I don't ask this question again; I'll just have to consult my "gotcha" list. Ken On Wed, Jul 27, 2022 at 9:55 PM David Wright wrote: > > On Wed 27 Jul 2022 at 21:27:53 (-0700), Kenneth Wolcott wrote: > > > > I must be missing something obvious here. > > > > The last note of a first alternative is a tie to the first note in the > > repeat. > > > > Lilypond 2.22.2 complains: > > > > La_Bamba.ly:67:40: warning: unterminated tie > > r8 f'' f'' f'' f''4^. f''8^. e'' > >~ | % m26 > > > > Thanks in advance for pointing out what I missed in the documentation... > > Replace that tie with \laissezVibrer. It's on the second page of > Ties in NR, around p59 (I'm using 2.23 docs). It's the complement > of \repeatTie, and the difficulty with looking up these terms has > been commented on here quite recently. > > > My engraving, my Lilypond source and the 8notes.com's Brass Quartet > > arrangement of "La Bamba" are attached. > > > > The problem occurs at bar 26 in the first trumpet part. > > The 8notes's tie is far too long. > > Cheers, > David.
Re: Last note of a first alternative is a tie to the first note in the repeat; how to engrave this?
On Wed 27 Jul 2022 at 21:27:53 (-0700), Kenneth Wolcott wrote: > > I must be missing something obvious here. > > The last note of a first alternative is a tie to the first note in the > repeat. > > Lilypond 2.22.2 complains: > > La_Bamba.ly:67:40: warning: unterminated tie > r8 f'' f'' f'' f''4^. f''8^. e'' >~ | % m26 > > Thanks in advance for pointing out what I missed in the documentation... Replace that tie with \laissezVibrer. It's on the second page of Ties in NR, around p59 (I'm using 2.23 docs). It's the complement of \repeatTie, and the difficulty with looking up these terms has been commented on here quite recently. > My engraving, my Lilypond source and the 8notes.com's Brass Quartet > arrangement of "La Bamba" are attached. > > The problem occurs at bar 26 in the first trumpet part. The 8notes's tie is far too long. Cheers, David.
Re: Last note of a first alternative is a tie to the first note in the repeat; how to engrave this?
Greetings Ken, I wonder if this isn't a place for \laissezVibrer Hwaen Ch'uqi On 7/28/22, Kenneth Wolcott wrote: > Hi; > > I must be missing something obvious here. > > The last note of a first alternative is a tie to the first note in the > repeat. > > Lilypond 2.22.2 complains: > > La_Bamba.ly:67:40: warning: unterminated tie > r8 f'' f'' f'' f''4^. f''8^. e'' >~ | % m26 > > Thanks in advance for pointing out what I missed in the documentation... > > My engraving, my Lilypond source and the 8notes.com's Brass Quartet > arrangement of "La Bamba" are attached. > > The problem occurs at bar 26 in the first trumpet part. > > Thanks, > Ken Wolcott >
