Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[David Kastrup]

Curt McDowell  writes:

> On 3/31/2020 11:51 PM, Gianmaria Lari wrote:
>> Does anyone have any idea how these people is able to do things like
>> these?
>>
>> https://youtu.be/Sj4pE_bgRQI
>> https://youtu.be/3eXT60rbBVk
>>
> There was an article in USA Today
> about
>  
> the Ravel. It was done by:
>
> - Creating a short arrangement (4 minutes)
> - Sending to each of 50 musicians a score and a full soundtrack
>   including metronome clicks. LilyPond would be great for extracting
>  parts.
> - Giving them 4 days to record footage
> - Editing the audio and video at length, and cheating by mixing in
>   tracks from a previous performance by the same orchestra
>
> In the past I tried to record both parts of a fast duet on a Casio
> keyboard. It would play back a track while allowing you to overlay it 
> with another. The results were horrifying, even with no latency
> issues, and gave me an appreciation of how difficult synchronization
> is. (I had typeset the duet in LilyPond 
> , maybe you have
> heard the world's most annoying music 
>  :)

Well, my own multitracking history is exemplified in
 where I pitched in a fourth (or rather
third) voice after the fact.  However, both solo voices and the rhythm
establishing bass track were laid down in the first take live, so the
remaining voice did not play a structural role.  In this case, I find
the result good enough without the final voice, as in
.  Those two videos also showcase a bit of
advancement in the used equipment (starting from a EUR5 Ebay purchase of
a camera looking like a plastic toy and having "Full HD" at 15fps).

Multitrackers are usually advised to lay down the rhythmic section
first, then take the lead voices and afterwards the rest.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Curt McDowell]

On 3/31/2020 11:51 PM, Gianmaria Lari wrote:
Does anyone have any idea how these people is able to do things like 
these?


https://youtu.be/Sj4pE_bgRQI
https://youtu.be/3eXT60rbBVk

There was an article in USA Today 
about 
the Ravel. It was done by:


- Creating a short arrangement (4 minutes)
- Sending to each of 50 musicians a score and a full soundtrack 
including metronome clicks. LilyPond would be great for extracting parts.

- Giving them 4 days to record footage
- Editing the audio and video at length, and cheating by mixing in 
tracks from a previous performance by the same orchestra


In the past I tried to record both parts of a fast duet on a Casio 
keyboard. It would play back a track while allowing you to overlay it 
with another. The results were horrifying, even with no latency issues, 
and gave me an appreciation of how difficult synchronization is. (I had 
typeset the duet in LilyPond 
, maybe you have 
heard the world's most annoying music 
 :)


-Curt

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Francisco Vila]

El 1/4/20 a las 8:51, Gianmaria Lari escribió:

Off topic but very interesting :)

Does anyone have any idea how these people is able to do things like these?

https://youtu.be/Sj4pE_bgRQI
https://youtu.be/3eXT60rbBVk


If I had to do this, no doubt I'd use the MLT Framework, with no GUI, 
just coding, a la LilyPond.


For only two people, in this case I used Blender VSE. Two imported video 
tracks and transform strips for each, with offset and crop.


Poulenc, sonate (fragment)

* mix.mp40077-0852.mkv (4,6 MB) alojado en *cloud: 
https://cloud.paconet.org/index.php/s/rF8bdjTkZCH2H5L/download


Document available.

--
Francisco Vila, Ph.D. - Badajoz (Spain)
paconet.org , lilypond.es

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Gianmaria Lari]

>
> Does anyone have any idea how these people is able to do things like these?
>
> https://youtu.be/Sj4pE_bgRQI
> https://youtu.be/3eXT60rbBVk
>
> [...]

> > One possibility might be having one instrument play along with the
> > conductor video, then have the next musician play along that video
> > while listening to the first recording and so on. That might work out
> > to produce a decent recording (with unreasonable amounts of technical
> > trickery), but I have to second Ralf in saying this is not really
> > playing together. "Making music together" (but not at the same time)
> > might capture the idea better ...
>
> You can reiterate.  Start with people just seeing the conductor, then
> give everyone a mix without their own track and rerecord.  After a few
> iterations, it's becoming pretty close to playing together.
>

Thank you for all the very useful answer.

Best regards, g.

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[David Kastrup]

Urs Liska  writes:

> Am Mittwoch, den 01.04.2020, 11:33 +0200 schrieb Christian Masser:
>> Hi!
>> I think whether it's easier with only click or with click+MIDI purely
>> depends on the player's own stability in terms of intonation and
>> rhythm. (And in terms of MIDI accompaniment you have to pay special
>> attention to the tuning of the MIDI instrument.)
>> 
>> Having done a few of this recordings myself I found that for chorales
>> or hymn tunes it's easier having a MIDI track because of the many
>> small corrections you have to make in tuning depending on the harmony
>> you're in while on the other hand it's mostly easier for rhythmically
>> difficult pieces to just play along the click.
>> 
>> But this is all probably very subjective to my own musical approach.
>
> One issue is that in 99% of classical music (with the exception of many
> contemporary music ensemble pieces and maybe the Bolero) musicians do
> *not* go along with a strict click track. Therefore usually a video of
> a conductor will musically be more adequate. Of course having many
> musicians perform against that video without hearing others will
> usually not result in really synchronized playing.
> One possibility might be having one instrument play along with the
> conductor video, then have the next musician play along that video
> while listening to the first recording and so on. That might work out
> to produce a decent recording (with unreasonable amounts of technical
> trickery), but I have to second Ralf in saying this is not really
> playing together. "Making music together" (but not at the same time)
> might capture the idea better ...

You can reiterate.  Start with people just seeing the conductor, then
give everyone a mix without their own track and rerecord.  After a few
iterations, it's becoming pretty close to playing together.

-- 
David Kastrup

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Michael Käppler]

Am 01.04.2020 um 14:33 schrieb Urs Liska:



I'd be very interested to hear more about your Jitsi project by the
way!
github?

That would be extremely interesting for us too because our work will
very much rely on a jitsi instance (which we fortunately had running
for some time already).

This is very interesting, Urs!
I work at university, too (Erfurt) and I feel very uncomfortable about
the predominance of commercial tools based in the US like Zoom (at least
in the
discussions I followed or took part in).
Do you use Jitsi with the Jitsi Meet browser-based frontend or
with the Jitsi Desktop client?
I tried to setup a Jitsi server instance (Jitsi Meet + Videobridge) on
a JiffyBox Cloud server. The installation was, apart from some minor
issues, pretty straightforward.
During test video calls I had many problems, however.
Some participants could not connect, partly because of
unsupported browser versions, partly they got no error messages,
only a black window.
With one friend of mine I managed to get a connection, but it was very
instable and freezed after some minutes, while we both use Skype, Zoom, etc.
without problems.

Regards,
Michael



Urs

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Kevin Cole]

On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 7:15 PM holl...@hollandhopson.com <
holl...@hollandhopson.com> wrote:

I second Jacktrip. I’ve also had success with JamKazam:
> https://www.jamkazam.com/ which is easier to setup. Using ethernet cables
> instead of wifi helps with latency and audio quality.
>

Alas, no Linux client.

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Kevin Cole]

On Mon, Mar 30, 2020 at 5:16 AM Dr Nicholas Bailey <
nicholas.bai...@glasgow.ac.uk> wrote:

> On Saturday, 28 March 2020 11:00:56 BST Peter Gentry wrote:
> > I appreciate this is off topic but in these times of social isolation
> does
> > anyone have any tips. Clearly latency is the main issue - I wonder could
> > this be reduced by say hosting a Zoom meeting on a private router - maybe
> > only one video for a conductor. Experience suggests that a latency of
> 25ms
> > is not low enough.
> >
> > Regards Peter
>
> We've been trying that, and so have Glasgow University Chapel Choir with
> hilarious results. See
>
> https://m.facebook.com/story.php?
> story_fbid=3271515439543488=215071425187920
>

Just sing rounds and be done with it. ;-)

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Urs Liska]

Am Mittwoch, den 01.04.2020, 13:27 +0100 schrieb Dr Nicholas Bailey:
> Off topic, so I've not bothered the list with it. But you might be 
> interested...
> 
> https://www.researchgate.net/publication/
> 200806144_Perception_of_onset_asynchronies_Acoustic_Piano_versus_Sync
> hronized_complex_versus_pure_tones
> http://musicstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Parncutt_JIMS_11050202.pdf

Without having read it (sorry, so little time ATM) I think the physical
boundaries of perception are pretty independent from the boundaries of
musical reality. There's very much real musicians can achieve that
sceptics (self-declared science people) would declare physically
impossible. Like some pianists being much better at playing "legato"
than others, or the possibility to differenciate between a 4 over 3
tuplet and the corresponding rhythmic notation.

> 
> I'd be very interested to hear more about your Jitsi project by the
> way! 
> github?

That would be extremely interesting for us too because our work will
very much rely on a jitsi instance (which we fortunately had running
for some time already).

Urs

> 

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Dr Nicholas Bailey]

Off topic, so I've not bothered the list with it. But you might be 
interested...

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/
200806144_Perception_of_onset_asynchronies_Acoustic_Piano_versus_Synchronized_complex_versus_pure_tones
http://musicstudies.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Parncutt_JIMS_11050202.pdf

I'd be very interested to hear more about your Jitsi project by the way! 
github?

-- 
The University of Glasgow, charity number SC004401

On Wednesday, 1 April 2020 11:06:06 BST Andrew Bernard wrote:
> This is all very good but ensembles have been performing double choir
> and organ in three widely spaced spots in Venice for centuries.
> Without click tracks in 1600.
> 
> I am not convinced that there is a human clock running at a specific
> rate. Where is the evidence for that, I ask, purely out of interest.
> 
> On this topic, I am currently building our own global jam software
> with video and audio with low latency based on the open source jitsi
> software. if it all works, I get back to you with the results.
> 
> Session players are great at following click tracks, but classically
> trained players are usually hopeless in my experience, amusingly.
> 
> Andrew

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Christian Masser]

Yep, I fully second that. It's by definition not "playing" together, mostly
because of the total lack of spontaneity. But on the other hand, with a few
- or to be more honest: a hell of - adjustments to the MIDI tempos in
advance, you can in fact account for a great deal in terms of at least
agogics.

You can then proceed with sending everyone the recording, if you want,
letting them make their own adjustments and re-recording. This way you can
get a decent piece of music out of it, instead of using the musicans only
as MIDI instruments. (This is kind of the very slow way of a good
orchestral rehearsal: Everyone brings an idea of his part according to the
conducter and at the same time listens to the other ideas and adjusts
individually to it.)

But to be honest, and having done both: you need a different subset of
skills for this than you'll need in daily orchestral playing. The fewest
musicians playing in orchestras do studio recordings where they get to play
to click regularly.

Christian

Urs Liska  schrieb am Mi., 1. Apr. 2020, 11:43:

> Am Mittwoch, den 01.04.2020, 11:33 +0200 schrieb Christian Masser:
>
> Hi!
>
> I think whether it's easier with only click or with click+MIDI purely
> depends on the player's own stability in terms of intonation and rhythm.
> (And in terms of MIDI accompaniment you have to pay special attention to
> the tuning of the MIDI instrument.)
>
> Having done a few of this recordings myself I found that for chorales or
> hymn tunes it's easier having a MIDI track because of the many small
> corrections you have to make in tuning depending on the harmony you're in
> while on the other hand it's mostly easier for rhythmically difficult
> pieces to just play along the click.
>
> But this is all probably very subjective to my own musical approach.
>
>
> One issue is that in 99% of classical music (with the exception of many
> contemporary music ensemble pieces and maybe the Bolero) musicians do *not*
> go along with a strict click track. Therefore usually a video of a
> conductor will musically be more adequate. Of course having many musicians
> perform against that video without hearing others will usually not result
> in really synchronized playing.
>
> One possibility might be having one instrument play along with the
> conductor video, then have the next musician play along that video while
> listening to the first recording and so on. That might work out to produce
> a decent recording (with unreasonable amounts of technical trickery), but I
> have to second Ralf in saying this is not really playing together. "Making
> music together" (but not at the same time) might capture the idea better ...
>
> Urs
>
>
>
> All the best
> Christian
>
> PS: Sorry Gianmaria, I accidentally answered to you directly without
> posting to the list.
>
>
> Gianmaria Lari  schrieb am Mi., 1. Apr. 2020,
> 11:13:
>
> Ciao Urs!
>
> On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 09:05, Urs Liska  wrote:
>
> Am Mittwoch, den 01.04.2020, 08:51 +0200 schrieb Gianmaria Lari:
>
> Off topic but very interesting :)
>
> Does anyone have any idea how these people is able to do things like these?
>
> https://youtu.be/Sj4pE_bgRQI
> https://youtu.be/3eXT60rbBVk
>
>
> I think the Rotterdam Philharmonic information says it all: Most of the
> solutions that pop up so far are not "playing together" but playing
> separately to a preproduced "click track", whether this is an actual click
> track or a video recording of the conductor. Then every musician plays
> their part and someone does the digital post production.
>
>
> Could be a "click track" a "neutral" recording maybe a midi file
> temporized according a conductor? So that each player can play "with" the
> music?
>
> I'm asking this because, of course the orchestral musician are
> professional, but to play an instrument part without the other instrumental
> parts and only following a metronome (or a video of the conductor) doesn't
> look easy.
>
> Does anyone know if this (temporized midi file) is something that people
> do? Or they really only watch a click track (a video with the score and the
> beating metronome)?
>
> Thanks, g.
> P.S. Hope my english is understandable.
>
>

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Andrew Bernard]

This is all very good but ensembles have been performing double choir
and organ in three widely spaced spots in Venice for centuries.
Without click tracks in 1600.

I am not convinced that there is a human clock running at a specific
rate. Where is the evidence for that, I ask, purely out of interest.

On this topic, I am currently building our own global jam software
with video and audio with low latency based on the open source jitsi
software. if it all works, I get back to you with the results.

Session players are great at following click tracks, but classically
trained players are usually hopeless in my experience, amusingly.

Andrew

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Urs Liska]

Am Mittwoch, den 01.04.2020, 11:33 +0200 schrieb Christian Masser:
> Hi!
> I think whether it's easier with only click or with click+MIDI purely
> depends on the player's own stability in terms of intonation and
> rhythm. (And in terms of MIDI accompaniment you have to pay special
> attention to the tuning of the MIDI instrument.)
> 
> Having done a few of this recordings myself I found that for chorales
> or hymn tunes it's easier having a MIDI track because of the many
> small corrections you have to make in tuning depending on the harmony
> you're in while on the other hand it's mostly easier for rhythmically
> difficult pieces to just play along the click.
> 
> But this is all probably very subjective to my own musical approach.

One issue is that in 99% of classical music (with the exception of many
contemporary music ensemble pieces and maybe the Bolero) musicians do
*not* go along with a strict click track. Therefore usually a video of
a conductor will musically be more adequate. Of course having many
musicians perform against that video without hearing others will
usually not result in really synchronized playing.
One possibility might be having one instrument play along with the
conductor video, then have the next musician play along that video
while listening to the first recording and so on. That might work out
to produce a decent recording (with unreasonable amounts of technical
trickery), but I have to second Ralf in saying this is not really
playing together. "Making music together" (but not at the same time)
might capture the idea better ...
Urs

> All the best
> Christian
> 
> PS: Sorry Gianmaria, I accidentally answered to you directly without
> posting to the list.
> 
> 
> Gianmaria Lari  schrieb am Mi., 1. Apr.
> 2020, 11:13:
> > Ciao Urs!
> > 
> > On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 09:05, Urs Liska 
> > wrote:
> > > Am Mittwoch, den 01.04.2020, 08:51 +0200 schrieb Gianmaria Lari:
> > > > Off topic but very interesting :)
> > > > Does anyone have any idea how these people is able to do things
> > > > like these?
> > > > > https://youtu.be/Sj4pE_bgRQI
> > > > > https://youtu.be/3eXT60rbBVk
> > > 
> > > I think the Rotterdam Philharmonic information says it all: Most
> > > of the solutions that pop up so far are not "playing together"
> > > but playing separately to a preproduced "click track", whether
> > > this is an actual click track or a video recording of the
> > > conductor. Then every musician plays their part and someone does
> > > the digital post production.
> > 
> > Could be a "click track" a "neutral" recording maybe a midi file
> > temporized according a conductor? So that each player can play
> > "with" the music?
> > 
> > I'm asking this because, of course the orchestral musician are
> > professional, but to play an instrument part without the other
> > instrumental parts and only following a metronome (or a video of
> > the conductor) doesn't look easy.  
> > 
> > Does anyone know if this (temporized midi file) is something that
> > people do? Or they really only watch a click track (a video with
> > the score and the beating metronome)?
> > 
> > Thanks, g.
> > P.S. Hope my english is understandable.

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Christian Masser]

Hi!

I think whether it's easier with only click or with click+MIDI purely
depends on the player's own stability in terms of intonation and rhythm.
(And in terms of MIDI accompaniment you have to pay special attention to
the tuning of the MIDI instrument.)

Having done a few of this recordings myself I found that for chorales or
hymn tunes it's easier having a MIDI track because of the many small
corrections you have to make in tuning depending on the harmony you're in
while on the other hand it's mostly easier for rhythmically difficult
pieces to just play along the click.

But this is all probably very subjective to my own musical approach.

All the best
Christian

PS: Sorry Gianmaria, I accidentally answered to you directly without
posting to the list.


Gianmaria Lari  schrieb am Mi., 1. Apr. 2020,
11:13:

> Ciao Urs!
>
> On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 09:05, Urs Liska  wrote:
>
>> Am Mittwoch, den 01.04.2020, 08:51 +0200 schrieb Gianmaria Lari:
>>
>> Off topic but very interesting :)
>>
>> Does anyone have any idea how these people is able to do things like
>> these?
>>
>> https://youtu.be/Sj4pE_bgRQI
>> https://youtu.be/3eXT60rbBVk
>>
>>
>> I think the Rotterdam Philharmonic information says it all: Most of the
>> solutions that pop up so far are not "playing together" but playing
>> separately to a preproduced "click track", whether this is an actual click
>> track or a video recording of the conductor. Then every musician plays
>> their part and someone does the digital post production.
>>
>
> Could be a "click track" a "neutral" recording maybe a midi file
> temporized according a conductor? So that each player can play "with" the
> music?
>
> I'm asking this because, of course the orchestral musician are
> professional, but to play an instrument part without the other instrumental
> parts and only following a metronome (or a video of the conductor) doesn't
> look easy.
>
> Does anyone know if this (temporized midi file) is something that people
> do? Or they really only watch a click track (a video with the score and the
> beating metronome)?
>
> Thanks, g.
> P.S. Hope my english is understandable.
>

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Ralf Mattes]

Am Mittwoch, 01. April 2020 11:12 CEST, Gianmaria Lari 
 schrieb:


> Could be a "click track" a "neutral" recording maybe a midi file temporized
> according a conductor? So that each player can play "with" the music?

A click track is a recording (or an electronically produced sound) of metronome
like clicks. It's actually pretty common for some ensembe performances of
contemporary music, esp. when live electronics are involved.

> I'm asking this because, of course the orchestral musician are
> professional, but to play an instrument part without the other instrumental
> parts and only following a metronome (or a video of the conductor) doesn't
> look easy.

A professional musician exposed to contemporary music should be used to
play with click tracks. Af course the question arises if a performance _ony_
hearing the click track (with later sound processing) is really "ensemble 
playing"
(not for me. These videos mainly demonstrate what can be done with modern
computer aided sound processing ...).

 Cheers and stay healthy

 RalfD

> Does anyone know if this (temporized midi file) is something that people
> do? Or they really only watch a click track (a video with the score and the
> beating metronome)?
>
> Thanks, g.
> P.S. Hope my english is understandable.



--
Ralf Mattes

Hochschule für Musik Freiburg
Projektleitung HISinOne
Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg
http://www.mh-freiburg.de

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Gianmaria Lari]

Ciao Urs!

On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 09:05, Urs Liska  wrote:

> Am Mittwoch, den 01.04.2020, 08:51 +0200 schrieb Gianmaria Lari:
>
> Off topic but very interesting :)
>
> Does anyone have any idea how these people is able to do things like these?
>
> https://youtu.be/Sj4pE_bgRQI
> https://youtu.be/3eXT60rbBVk
>
>
> I think the Rotterdam Philharmonic information says it all: Most of the
> solutions that pop up so far are not "playing together" but playing
> separately to a preproduced "click track", whether this is an actual click
> track or a video recording of the conductor. Then every musician plays
> their part and someone does the digital post production.
>

Could be a "click track" a "neutral" recording maybe a midi file temporized
according a conductor? So that each player can play "with" the music?

I'm asking this because, of course the orchestral musician are
professional, but to play an instrument part without the other instrumental
parts and only following a metronome (or a video of the conductor) doesn't
look easy.

Does anyone know if this (temporized midi file) is something that people
do? Or they really only watch a click track (a video with the score and the
beating metronome)?

Thanks, g.
P.S. Hope my english is understandable.

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Hans Åberg]

> On 1 Apr 2020, at 08:51, Gianmaria Lari  wrote:
> 
> Off topic but very interesting :)
> 
> Does anyone have any idea how these people is able to do things like these?
> 
> https://youtu.be/Sj4pE_bgRQI
> https://youtu.be/3eXT60rbBVk

At least in the first video, only one of the musicians have the wireless 
AirPods, the percussion, which have a such a large latency that synchronizing 
would be difficult. So I figure, this musician leads the performance, and the 
other musicans plays against that, and then it is resynchronized for the 
performance.

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Hans Åberg]

> On 28 Mar 2020, at 12:00, Peter Gentry  
> wrote:
> 
> I appreciate this is off topic but in these times of social isolation does 
> anyone have any tips. Clearly latency is the main issue – I wonder could this 
> be reduced by say hosting a Zoom meeting on a private router – maybe only one 
> video for a conductor. Experience suggests that a latency of 25ms is not low 
> enough.
> Regards Peter

The speed of sound in air at 20 C is about 343 m/s, and the book [1] by Michael 
Barron, “Auditorium Acoustics and Architectural Design” says that on a distance 
beyond 8 meters, it becomes difficult for an ensemble to perform, which is a 
delay of about 23 ms.

The human internal clock runs at about 60-70 ticks per second, or about 16 ms.

One can have longer delays if everybody agrees to follow say the percussion 
they hear, and then resynchronize the different musicians for the audience.


1. 
https://books.google.com/books?id=InKLAgAAQBAJ=PA57=PA57=distance+between+musicians+in+an+orchestra=bl=4xlwKzzN04=ACfU3U1bRnGzaor3S-xJKpyfq-wHc9ynSQ=sv=X=2ahUKEwi29rnI6cboAhWrlIsKHQJLDL0Q6AEwC3oECAcQAQ#v=onepage=distance%20between%20musicians%20in%20an%20orchestra=false

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Urs Liska]

Am Mittwoch, den 01.04.2020, 08:51 +0200 schrieb Gianmaria Lari:
> Off topic but very interesting :)
> Does anyone have any idea how these people is able to do things like
> these?
> > https://youtu.be/Sj4pE_bgRQI
> > https://youtu.be/3eXT60rbBVk

I think the Rotterdam Philharmonic information says it all: Most of the
solutions that pop up so far are not "playing together" but playing
separately to a preproduced "click track", whether this is an actual
click track or a video recording of the conductor. Then every musician
plays their part and someone does the digital post production.
In the Rotterdam recording you hear that the instruments are really
recorded in their actual living rooms (although with professional
equipment and personell normal people wouldn't have at their disposal).
But I'd bet when the choir enters *that* is from an existing recording.
The Ravel is surely done the same way, and I have the impression that
what you actually hear is an existing recording (just listen to the
homogenity of the mix and the acoustics), so what they presumably are
doing is essentially a "music video".
In a way you could consider this as cheating, but OTOH, all the
classical music recording industry is built on similar cheats, and if
you look at the comments on YouTube it does serve a positive social
purpose.
BestUrs
PS: Listening to this and watching in preparation to a video meeting
discussing how the conductors in my music university may go forward in
an "online semester".
> The only information I found is this:
> 
> https://slippedisc.com/2020/03/exclusive-rotterdam-made-that-amazing-beethoven-9th-without-rehearsal/
>  
> =
> []
> SD What technology did you use for recording?
> RP: The video might look ‘easy’ but its not. We used really
> professional hard and software, since we also have to protect the
> level of recording that we put of there Rotterdam Philharmonic
> Orchestra. Besides that we believe that the quality is part of the
> impact a message like this has.
> 
> (We asked Mike for further specifications). Mike adds: In general,
> what we do is we pre-produce a click-track which the musicians play
> to. Keep in mind that you have to think about tuning and intonation.
> Then we put all those videos in sync and work on the sound with
> professional studio software and equipment. []
> =
> 
> What does they mean with "click-track" ?
> 
> Thank you, g.
> 
> 
> 

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Gianmaria Lari]

Off topic but very interesting :)

Does anyone have any idea how these people is able to do things like these?

https://youtu.be/Sj4pE_bgRQI
https://youtu.be/3eXT60rbBVk


The only information I found is this:

https://slippedisc.com/2020/03/exclusive-rotterdam-made-that-amazing-beethoven-9th-without-rehearsal/

=
[]
SD What technology did you use for recording?
RP: The video might look ‘easy’ but its not. We used really professional
hard and software, since we also have to protect the level of recording
that we put of there Rotterdam Philharmonic Orchestra. Besides that we
believe that the quality is part of the impact a message like this has.

(We asked Mike for further specifications). Mike adds: In general, what we
do is we pre-produce a click-track which the musicians play to. Keep in
mind that you have to think about tuning and intonation. Then we put all
those videos in sync and work on the sound with professional studio
software and equipment. []
=

What does they mean with "click-track" ?

Thank you, g.

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Wols Lists]

On 30/03/20 10:15, Dr Nicholas Bailey wrote:
> I don't trust Zoom anyway.  Why has it got more than 2 open file 
> descriptors? What's it doing  with my files??
> 
> $ lsof | grep -i zoom | wc -l
> 20811

I can't find what I was looking for, but this was mentioned recently on
LWN. Apparently it's down to naive usage of glibc ... :-(

I think it was this article https://lwn.net/Articles/814535/ , you'll
probably find it was blindly searching for a whole bunch of config files
are those descriptors are dentries for files that don't exist.

Cheers,
Wol

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Karlin High]

This question made me think of the "Eric Whitacre's Virtual Choir" 
productions. Apparently one of those was done live via Skype. The others 
had all the singers upload their own recordings, which were then 
combined into the video production.

--
Karlin High
Missouri, USA

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Dr Nicholas Bailey]

On Saturday, 28 March 2020 11:00:56 BST Peter Gentry wrote:
> I appreciate this is off topic but in these times of social isolation does
> anyone have any tips. Clearly latency is the main issue - I wonder could
> this be reduced by say hosting a Zoom meeting on a private router - maybe
> only one video for a conductor. Experience suggests that a latency of 25ms
> is not low enough.
> 
> Regards Peter

We've been trying that, and so have Glasgow University Chapel Choir with 
hilarious results. See

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?
story_fbid=3271515439543488=215071425187920

(At the end you discover they are really very good!)

Maybe try one of the low-latency programs like Jamulus?

http://llcon.sourceforge.net/index.html

What would be really good would be to find such an application which could 
follow the conductor  and show a moving Lilypond score...

I don't trust Zoom anyway.  Why has it got more than 2 open file 
descriptors? What's it doing  with my files??

$ lsof | grep -i zoom | wc -l
20811

-- 
The University of Glasgow, charity number SC004401

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Sandro Santilli]

On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 11:00:56AM -, Peter Gentry wrote:
> I appreciate this is off topic but in these times of social isolation does
> anyone have any tips. Clearly latency is the main issue - I wonder could
> this be reduced by say hosting a Zoom meeting on a private router - maybe
> only one video for a conductor. Experience suggests that a latency of 25ms
> is not low enough.

The best experience I had with online playing was with ninjam:
https://www.cockos.com/ninjam/

It's an open protocol and free software implementation of a server
and a few clients (text, console, gui) for online jamming.

The idea is that everyone play on a tick (Beats Per Minute) and
everyone is ensured to always hear some previous recording of
anyone else on a defined cycle/interval (Beats Per Interval).

Depending on how the server is configured (easy to setup) the
BPM and BPI values can be fixed or driven by votes. Protocol
includes a chat and is text based for commands (like: "!vote bpm 60").

Some public servers do exist, which also support automatic recording
of resulting sessions ("autosong", the software doing this, is also
part of the main ninjam source code repository).

See http://ninbot.com/pubservers for a community curated list of
public servers. See top-level page for recordings of jams played
on ninbot.com servers.

An easy to setup QT based free software client is http://jamtaba.com

--strk;

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Graham King]

For those not deterred by network latency, Making Music has put up a page of 
suggestions[1].  (Making Music is a UK-based organisation that provides 
information, advice, advocacy and various other services for amateur music 
groups)

[1] 
https://www.makingmusic.org.uk/resource/covid-19-staying-connected?utm_source=Solus_medium=Email_campaign=iNotesMar2020

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Urs Liska]

Am Sonntag, den 29.03.2020, 11:34 +0100 schrieb Peter Gentry:
> Thanks for the responses. My current conclusion is that there are
> inherent technical issues  that are insurmountable. If there was a
> good solution it would be visible on the web.
>  
> My way forward is to record and distribute various pieces using midi
> or YouTube downloads (if available) so that members can practice and
> be perfect when we can meet up again.

I think that's the proper way to go forward. I'm working on making a
music university "go online" for the spring semester, and of course we
have lots of settings where realtime coordination is/would be a crucial
factor.
My take on this is that it will definitely be possible to have students
learn important things, but it won't necessarily be the same as they
learn usually. It's fair to concentrate on specific topics, maybe
considering them from unusual perspectives.
Best
Urs
>  
>  Keep safe everyone.
>  
>  Regards Peter
>  

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Peter Gentry]

Thanks for the responses. My current conclusion is that there are inherent
technical issues  that are insurmountable. If there was a good solution it
would be visible on the web.

 

My way forward is to record and distribute various pieces using midi or
YouTube downloads (if available) so that members can practice and be perfect
when we can meet up again.

 

Keep safe everyone.

 

Regards Peter

 

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[holl...@hollandhopson.com]

I second Jacktrip. I’ve also had success with JamKazam: 
https://www.jamkazam.com/ which is easier to setup. Using ethernet cables 
instead of wifi helps with latency and audio quality.

I recommend a Zoom meeting or similar to help everyone work out settings, audio 
inputs and outputs, etc.
Holland 

> On Mar 28, 2020, at 5:06 PM, Adam Good  wrote:
> 
> My friend in California and I (in Brooklyn, NY) had some pretty decent luck 
> with Jactrip:
> 
> https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/jacktrip/ 
>  
> 
> Not the easiest to get set up and we need to try a few more times to 
> troubleshoot but, give it a try and please report back!
> 
> best,
> Adam
>  
> 
> On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 7:01 AM Peter Gentry 
>  > wrote:
> I appreciate this is off topic but in these times of social isolation does 
> anyone have any tips. Clearly latency is the main issue – I wonder could this 
> be reduced by say hosting a Zoom meeting on a private router – maybe only one 
> video for a conductor. Experience suggests that a latency of 25ms is not low 
> enough.
> 
> Regards Peter
> 
>  
> 

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Adam Good]

My friend in California and I (in Brooklyn, NY) had some pretty decent luck
with Jactrip:

https://ccrma.stanford.edu/software/jacktrip/

Not the easiest to get set up and we need to try a few more times to
troubleshoot but, give it a try and please report back!

best,
Adam


On Sat, Mar 28, 2020 at 7:01 AM Peter Gentry <
peter.gen...@sunscales.myzen.co.uk> wrote:

> I appreciate this is off topic but in these times of social isolation does
> anyone have any tips. Clearly latency is the main issue – I wonder could
> this be reduced by say hosting a Zoom meeting on a private router – maybe
> only one video for a conductor. Experience suggests that a latency of 25ms
> is not low enough.
>
> Regards Peter
>
>
>

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[antlists]

On 28/03/2020 18:55, Ralf Mattes wrote:

To the OP: there is an immanent latency in all network connections - packets 
need to
pass through switches and routers, and let's not forget the speed of electrical 
signals.
While one can get pretty low latency on local networks (Dante et al.) trying 
live jamming
over the internet is pretty much impossible.


Well, I shall soon find out ... a band I play for has scheduled a 
practice for Easter Saturday ...


Cheers,
Wol

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Ralf Mattes]

Am Samstag, 28. März 2020 19:52 CET, Michael Gerdau  schrieb:

> Did they play live?

Looks (and sounds) like the all play to the same clicktrack 

 Cheers, RalfD

> And if so, what software/setup had been used?
> It doesn’t say so in the comments.
>
> Kind regards,
> Michael
>



--
Ralf Mattes

Hochschule für Musik Freiburg
Projektleitung HISinOne
Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg
http://www.mh-freiburg.de

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Ralf Mattes]

Am Samstag, 28. März 2020 19:37 CET, antlists  
schrieb:

> On 28/03/2020 11:00, Peter Gentry wrote:
> > I appreciate this is off topic but in these times of social isolation
> > does anyone have any tips. Clearly latency is the main issue – I wonder
> > could this be reduced by say hosting a Zoom meeting on a private router
> > – maybe only one video for a conductor. Experience suggests that a
> > latency of 25ms is not low enough.
> >
> > Regards Peter
> >
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0KiCXZ2IM0
>
> Stuff I've picked up elsewhere - avoid Firefox. I hate to say that, but
> the evidence is that one user on that and everyone else suffers.

It's not _that_ simple. This really depends on your video server software. Iff 
you
use a SFU then either Firefox will have to send more data (which is limited
by your upstream bandwidth which usually is much smaller than your downstream
bandwidth) our your other clients will get only one resolution/audio codec. But
that has little or nothing to do with latency. BTW, Firefox does have 
experimetal support
for Simulcast, you video solution just has to use it (many don't).
To the OP: there is an immanent latency in all network connections - packets 
need to
pass through switches and routers, and let's not forget the speed of electrical 
signals.
While one can get pretty low latency on local networks (Dante et al.) trying 
live jamming
over the internet is pretty much impossible.

 Cheers, RalfD

> Cheers,
> Wol
>



--
Ralf Mattes

Hochschule für Musik Freiburg
Projektleitung HISinOne
Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg
http://www.mh-freiburg.de

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[Michael Gerdau]

Did they play live?
And if so, what software/setup had been used?
It doesn’t say so in the comments.

Kind regards,
Michael

Re: Remote Ensemble Playing

[antlists]

On 28/03/2020 11:00, Peter Gentry wrote:
I appreciate this is off topic but in these times of social isolation 
does anyone have any tips. Clearly latency is the main issue – I wonder 
could this be reduced by say hosting a Zoom meeting on a private router 
– maybe only one video for a conductor. Experience suggests that a 
latency of 25ms is not low enough.


Regards Peter


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0KiCXZ2IM0

Stuff I've picked up elsewhere - avoid Firefox. I hate to say that, but 
the evidence is that one user on that and everyone else suffers.


Cheers,
Wol

Remote Ensemble Playing

[Peter Gentry]

I appreciate this is off topic but in these times of social isolation does
anyone have any tips. Clearly latency is the main issue - I wonder could
this be reduced by say hosting a Zoom meeting on a private router - maybe
only one video for a conductor. Experience suggests that a latency of 25ms
is not low enough.

Regards Peter