Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On 07/11/2011 12:16 AM, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 05:08:32PM +0200, rosea grammostola wrote: After spending a week using JackSession, I don't think a quit-without-save option should be a 'showstopper' here Fons. Especially because JackSession makes working with JACK so much easier. Better to have JackSession without a quit-without-save option, then no JackSession at all. In other circumstances I'd call that a pragmatic tradeoff. But since you're not offered the choice it's not even that. There is no good reason to omit quit-without-save. I regard any app that doesn't offer it as fundamentally broken, and the same applies to whatever higher level system controlling apps. I use fluxbox, and this shortcut closes all windows for me (having qjackctl in the system tray) ;) Mod4 Shift a :CloseAllWindows Sorry, but I can't dive in the technical discussion. The only thing I can say as a user is that I think Torben did a good job so far. JackSession kills a lot of disadvantages when it comes to working with JACK, especially when creating music. I do understand that people might have good reasons for not working on / supporting something they think is wrong. The question is whether this missing quit-without-save function makes JackSession wrong enough to not support it, also considering the obvious benefits Linuxaudio users have when applications support JackSession. It might be good if Torben joins the discussion about the good and the bad and the missing things of JackSession at the moment (see also message by Emanuel). Kind regards, \r ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On 07/03/2011 12:27 AM, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Sat, Jul 02, 2011 at 11:02:27PM +0200, rosea grammostola wrote: Next thing what would be good to have imo is a good software mixer with JackSession support. Unfortunately non-mixer is not a good candidate afaik, cause it changes port names. I don't know if Fons is still busy with his mixer and if he has explored and made up his mind about the actual implementation of the JackSession API already. As to Jack Session support, I won't even consider it as long as it doesn't support quit-without-save. The rationale for not supporting this is IMNSHO completely bogus. I just can't imagine any app that a) can't do this, and b) can't be modified easily to do it. 'Easily' here means requiring a fraction of the effort to support Jack Session at all. I've got some other gripes with Jack Session as well, but these have been discussed (or at least presented) before. After spending a week using JackSession, I don't think a quit-without-save option should be a 'showstopper' here Fons. Especially because JackSession makes working with JACK so much easier. Better to have JackSession without a quit-without-save option, then no JackSession at all. My 2 cents \r ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On 07/10/2011 10:08 AM, rosea grammostola wrote: After spending a week using JackSession, I don't think a quit-without-save option should be a 'showstopper' here Fons. Especially because JackSession makes working with JACK so much easier. Better to have JackSession without a quit-without-save option, then no JackSession at all. Actually, I've had the opposite impression... quit-without-save is a total PITA and actually causes data corruption for me. :-/ (Oops... I forgot to save as a bogus session before hitting `Quit`.) -gabriel ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
2011/7/10 rosea grammostola rosea.grammost...@gmail.com: On 07/03/2011 12:27 AM, Fons Adriaensen wrote: As to Jack Session support, I won't even consider it as long as it doesn't support quit-without-save. The rationale for not supporting this is IMNSHO completely bogus. After playing around with it, I'm with you here. It should have quit-without-save and a few more improvements. I've got some other gripes with Jack Session as well, but these have been discussed (or at least presented) before. Looks like I missed that discussion. I think Torben Hohn did very well, introducing jack-session, it's the way to go, but I think too, it's not mature. I've prepared a proposal that tries to improve some parts of jack-session, without making it much more complicated. Everyone is welcome, to add his ideas and opinion. http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/user/emrum/jack_session_2_draft Better to have JackSession without a quit-without-save option, then no JackSession at all. Agreed. -- E.R. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On 07/10/2011 06:33 PM, Emanuel Rumpf wrote: 2011/7/10 rosea grammostolarosea.grammost...@gmail.com: On 07/03/2011 12:27 AM, Fons Adriaensen wrote: As to Jack Session support, I won't even consider it as long as it doesn't support quit-without-save. The rationale for not supporting this is IMNSHO completely bogus. After playing around with it, I'm with you here. It should have quit-without-save and a few more improvements. I've got some other gripes with Jack Session as well, but these have been discussed (or at least presented) before. Looks like I missed that discussion. I think Torben Hohn did very well, introducing jack-session, it's the way to go, but I think too, it's not mature. I've prepared a proposal that tries to improve some parts of jack-session, without making it much more complicated. Everyone is welcome, to add his ideas and opinion. http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/user/emrum/jack_session_2_draft Good job. I added some comments. Regards, \r ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
Am Sun, 10 Jul 2011 17:08:32 +0200 schrieb rosea grammostola rosea.grammost...@gmail.com: On 07/03/2011 12:27 AM, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Sat, Jul 02, 2011 at 11:02:27PM +0200, rosea grammostola wrote: Next thing what would be good to have imo is a good software mixer with JackSession support. Unfortunately non-mixer is not a good candidate afaik, cause it changes port names. I don't know if Fons is still busy with his mixer and if he has explored and made up his mind about the actual implementation of the JackSession API already. As to Jack Session support, I won't even consider it as long as it doesn't support quit-without-save. The rationale for not supporting this is IMNSHO completely bogus. I just can't imagine any app that a) can't do this, and b) can't be modified easily to do it. 'Easily' here means requiring a fraction of the effort to support Jack Session at all. I've got some other gripes with Jack Session as well, but these have been discussed (or at least presented) before. After spending a week using JackSession, I don't think a quit-without-save option should be a 'showstopper' here Fons. Especially because JackSession makes working with JACK so much easier. Better to have JackSession without a quit-without-save option, then no JackSession at all. agree. i use jack-session since two weeks. and now i know for sure, that i never again will miss it!!! whatever, i think it makes more sense to support jack-session with a positive feedback, as endless more or less destructive discussions about some details to challenge the whole thing. IMO, if more jack applications will implement it, and more users will work with it, features requests or improvement requests will make clear in which direction the session management will run. and than, maybe there a answer which save or even not save function makes sense or not. greetings wolke My 2 cents \r ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On Sun, Jul 10, 2011 at 05:08:32PM +0200, rosea grammostola wrote: After spending a week using JackSession, I don't think a quit-without-save option should be a 'showstopper' here Fons. Especially because JackSession makes working with JACK so much easier. Better to have JackSession without a quit-without-save option, then no JackSession at all. In other circumstances I'd call that a pragmatic tradeoff. But since you're not offered the choice it's not even that. There is no good reason to omit quit-without-save. I regard any app that doesn't offer it as fundamentally broken, and the same applies to whatever higher level system controlling apps. Ciao, -- FA ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On Sun, 10 Jul 2011 19:43:53 +0200 rosea grammostola rosea.grammost...@gmail.com wrote: On 07/10/2011 06:33 PM, Emanuel Rumpf wrote: 2011/7/10 rosea grammostolarosea.grammost...@gmail.com: On 07/03/2011 12:27 AM, Fons Adriaensen wrote: As to Jack Session support, I won't even consider it as long as it doesn't support quit-without-save. The rationale for not supporting this is IMNSHO completely bogus. After playing around with it, I'm with you here. It should have quit-without-save and a few more improvements. I've got some other gripes with Jack Session as well, but these have been discussed (or at least presented) before. Looks like I missed that discussion. I think Torben Hohn did very well, introducing jack-session, it's the way to go, but I think too, it's not mature. I've prepared a proposal that tries to improve some parts of jack-session, without making it much more complicated. Everyone is welcome, to add his ideas and opinion. http://wiki.linuxaudio.org/wiki/user/emrum/jack_session_2_draft Good job. I added some comments. just wanted to notify that one of the additional ideas is asking support for multiple sessions, while one of Emanuel's conclusions (first bulleted list, third item) says that this is now possible but should actually not be, as it could be an error-source. cheers renato ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On 07/04/2011 03:23 AM, Paul Davis wrote: 2011/7/3 Dave Phillipsdlphill...@woh.rr.com: Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote: ... none of the audio stuff i routinely do everyday would be possible without jack. Amen to that. I disagree with both of you. I think what you really mean is none of this would be possible without some system for interconnecting processing elements together in flexible, creative,possibly unanticipated ways that also leaves the developers of those elements free to do things in their own way. that much i'd agree with. but this is not a description that requires that the solution be at the process level. well, like ladspa, jack has its time and place, and it has triggered an amazing surge of activity. to me, it's the best infrastructure in the market. when it was conceived, there was no way to do what it does except at the process level. and now that we know how to combine multiple gui toolkits in a single process, it still looks very good. and as long as jack keeps scaling over multiple cpu cores, we have cycles in abundance - so where's the harm in some inter-process communication overhead? rather than lumping all audio into a single process, i'd say jack should even strengthen the boundaries between processes, such that it doesn't die as easily when a node in the graph goes bad, to make it even better suited for live use than it already is. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On Tue, Jul 5, 2011 at 12:14 AM, m.wolkst...@gmx.de m.wolkst...@gmx.dewrote: Am Sun, 3 Jul 2011 14:10:49 +0200 Yes sounds good, if i had time i will include a corresponding config option. g wolke Done, checkout hydrogen trunk =rev2248. To save data into jack-session directory enable the checkbox tools-preferences-general-tab-save song file in jack session directory. Saving the data in the jack session directory as default and saving outside that folder as user option, seems to be more logical and better to me. Users of JackSession will expect it to be saved in the JackSession folder, just like all the other apps do. \r two things left. 1. i do all my tests against jack0.120.1. not against jack1.9.7. 2. h2 communicate via event-queue from core to gui. so it is not really possible to wait, while a jsm callback call, for an Hydrogen QFileDialog. this happens only if hydrogen is running with an empty/new file. than hydrogen need to open a QFileDilog to get some informations(songname) from user. whatever in this case after closing the QFileDialog h2 will open an QMessageBox which inform the user to repeat the save procedure par jack session manager. not the so beautifully but currently i have no good idea how i can solve this without dirty hacks. g wolke One of the main points of a session is, to keep data *together*. So everything belonging to one session goes to one single folder. If you need a backup, make the application save to a different folder *additionally*, but don't skip saving and restoring from the session folder. ... also people like me, which plays often improvised music-sessions, will create tons of sessions folders with duplicated data. Turn off the 'versioned' option in qjackctl. Delete old sessions regularly. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
2011/7/4 Jörn Nettingsmeier netti...@folkwang-hochschule.de On 07/04/2011 03:23 AM, Paul Davis wrote: 2011/7/3 Dave Phillipsdlphill...@woh.rr.com**: Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote: ... none of the audio stuff i routinely do everyday would be possible without jack. Amen to that. I disagree with both of you. I think what you really mean is none of this would be possible without some system for interconnecting processing elements together in flexible, creative,possibly unanticipated ways that also leaves the developers of those elements free to do things in their own way. that much i'd agree with. but this is not a description that requires that the solution be at the process level. well, like ladspa, jack has its time and place, and it has triggered an amazing surge of activity. to me, it's the best infrastructure in the market. when it was conceived, there was no way to do what it does except at the process level. and now that we know how to combine multiple gui toolkits in a single process, it still looks very good. and as long as jack keeps scaling over multiple cpu cores, we have cycles in abundance - so where's the harm in some inter-process communication overhead? rather than lumping all audio into a single process, i'd say jack should even strengthen the boundaries between processes, such that it doesn't die as easily when a node in the graph goes bad, to make it even better suited for live use than it already is. With JackSession quite some drawbacks of JACK will be countered. It is / was very user unfriendly to all the plumbing yourself again and again. Anyway, we're getting a bit offtopic here. You might want to start a new thread about the past and future of JACK and a plugin API (LV2) Regards, \r ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On Sun, Jul 03, 2011 at 01:32:09PM -0400, Paul Davis wrote: On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Emanuel Rumpf xb...@web.de wrote: SaveAndQuit (without Quit only) is not so bad, as it appears initially. Actually I seem to like the idea of this simplification. Although one has to get used to it. What I'm really missing is SaveAndClose (without application Quit !). Restarting all applications for changing a session doesn't appear practical. i feel that if you spend too long reasoning about this, you will conclude, as I have, that JACK was actually a mistake (at least in terms of the basic framework in which to glue together different things processing data streams). the absence of a plugin API that was likely to be adopted by all/most developers back in 2000 is what gave rise to this situation. there's a limit to how far you can push the usability of a DAW built out of N independent processes, each one running code developed by different developers with no awareness of the others. the limit is, thankfully, not too primitive, but its also not far enough out to be able to pretend that JACK + N1 clients is actually functionally equivalent to a single host + plugins, at least not in terms of state management. I don't think it was a mistake to provide flexible audio connectivity between processes. Even if the ideal situation is to integrate things to a level that typical users expect, 1) there are exceptions to this, and 2) there is much more room for integration between processes than has been exploited up to now. As an example of (1), take the monitoring system here at the LABEL. It can switch between - 8 discrete channels, - various AMB modes, - stereo via two discrete speakers, - stereo via virtual AMB speakers, - 5.1 - ... and for all of these the source signals can come from - the local (linux) machine - the MAC - the hardware mixer. Future versions may also include room correction processing. I wouldn't want this setup to be part of a session in a single integrated production app, or even part of Jack Session It has nothing to do with any project and should not be copied if a project is moved to another environment. It's just part of the studio infrastructure, at least as far as a typical user is concerned. If there is one fundamental change I'd make to any Jack-like system if I would design it now, it would be to make ports persistent - they exist even if the app they are associated with does not run. Similar to the fact that the analog (to a patchbay) and digital (to an ADAT/MADI matrix) connections of the hardware mixer here exists even if it is switched off. This in turn encourages fixed or at least semi-permanent port wiring, with most of the flexibility being provided by the applications, which would be able to use any port for any function, as is the case for the mixer app that I'm developing. Having a semi-permanent set of endpoints and connections greatly facilitates setting up and managing sessions. And it does not make some desirable forms of integration impossible. For example there is nothing that would stop e.g. my mixer app to read an Ardour session file and set up itself according to the track list, including setting the channel labels on the mixer. (BTW it would be great if Ardour would provide raw track ouputs) Ciao, -- FA ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: (BTW it would be great if Ardour would provide raw track ouputs) why not just use a prefader send. set up a track template and then create all your new tracks with it? ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On Mon, Jul 04, 2011 at 12:33:18PM -0400, Paul Davis wrote: On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 10:18 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: (BTW it would be great if Ardour would provide raw track ouputs) why not just use a prefader send. set up a track template and then create all your new tracks with it? OK, let me rephrase that: it would be great is Ardour could be run without the mixer, just providing the raw track outputs. :-) -- FA ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
Am Sun, 3 Jul 2011 14:10:49 +0200 schrieb m.wolkst...@gmx.de m.wolkst...@gmx.de: Am Sun, 03 Jul 2011 11:10:08 +0200 schrieb rosea grammostola rosea.grammost...@gmail.com: On 07/03/2011 09:44 AM, Emanuel Rumpf wrote: 2011/7/2 m.wolkst...@gmx.dem.wolkst...@gmx.de: but i didn't agree to save the application data into the jack-session folder! You really should make that a user option ! Yep, I do agree with this. It starts to get complex again if all apps will have there own ways of saving. No problem if there is a additional way provided. Yes sounds good, if i had time i will include a corresponding config option. g wolke Done, checkout hydrogen trunk =rev2248. To save data into jack-session directory enable the checkbox tools-preferences-general-tab-save song file in jack session directory. two things left. 1. i do all my tests against jack0.120.1. not against jack1.9.7. 2. h2 communicate via event-queue from core to gui. so it is not really possible to wait, while a jsm callback call, for an Hydrogen QFileDialog. this happens only if hydrogen is running with an empty/new file. than hydrogen need to open a QFileDilog to get some informations(songname) from user. whatever in this case after closing the QFileDialog h2 will open an QMessageBox which inform the user to repeat the save procedure par jack session manager. not the so beautifully but currently i have no good idea how i can solve this without dirty hacks. g wolke One of the main points of a session is, to keep data *together*. So everything belonging to one session goes to one single folder. If you need a backup, make the application save to a different folder *additionally*, but don't skip saving and restoring from the session folder. ... also people like me, which plays often improvised music-sessions, will create tons of sessions folders with duplicated data. Turn off the 'versioned' option in qjackctl. Delete old sessions regularly. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
2011/7/2 m.wolkst...@gmx.de m.wolkst...@gmx.de: but i didn't agree to save the application data into the jack-session folder! You really should make that a user option ! One of the main points of a session is, to keep data *together*. So everything belonging to one session goes to one single folder. If you need a backup, make the application save to a different folder *additionally*, but don't skip saving and restoring from the session folder. ... also people like me, which plays often improvised music-sessions, will create tons of sessions folders with duplicated data. Turn off the 'versioned' option in qjackctl. Delete old sessions regularly. -- E.R. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On 07/03/2011 09:44 AM, Emanuel Rumpf wrote: 2011/7/2 m.wolkst...@gmx.dem.wolkst...@gmx.de: but i didn't agree to save the application data into the jack-session folder! You really should make that a user option ! Yep, I do agree with this. It starts to get complex again if all apps will have there own ways of saving. No problem if there is a additional way provided. One of the main points of a session is, to keep data *together*. So everything belonging to one session goes to one single folder. If you need a backup, make the application save to a different folder *additionally*, but don't skip saving and restoring from the session folder. ... also people like me, which plays often improvised music-sessions, will create tons of sessions folders with duplicated data. Turn off the 'versioned' option in qjackctl. Delete old sessions regularly. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On 07/03/2011 12:27 AM, Fons Adriaensen wrote: On Sat, Jul 02, 2011 at 11:02:27PM +0200, rosea grammostola wrote: Next thing what would be good to have imo is a good software mixer with JackSession support. Unfortunately non-mixer is not a good candidate afaik, cause it changes port names. I don't know if Fons is still busy with his mixer and if he has explored and made up his mind about the actual implementation of the JackSession API already. Fons has been quite busy moving home the last weeks (not far, south of Parma to north of Parma, but it's the same exercise independent of distance anyway). Good luck with that. As to the mixer, yes I'm still working on it. A lot of thinking has gone into the design, and some aspects of it may turn out to be surprising as they break with Linux Audio traditions. One of them is external connections. The mixer will be able to use Jack of course, but does not require it. When using Jack, it will have a configurable number of inputs and outputs which have fixed names, just input-%d or output-%d. Any one of these can be patched internally to any channel, group, insert, send, or whatever that makes sense. The idea behind this is that Jack connections are fixed, and any session dependent wiring is done internally. A second one is the plugin system wich will be specific to this application. I will not even support LADSPA. If anyone wants to use his/her favourite plugin with this mixer, just convince me to port it - the criterion will be the quality of the plugin - or do it yourself. Interesting for sure... One feature request already then. Could you please port the plugins of Mr Adriaensen? They are pretty good normally. ;) As to Jack Session support, I won't even consider it as long as it doesn't support quit-without-save. The rationale for not supporting this is IMNSHO completely bogus. I just can't imagine any app that a) can't do this, and b) can't be modified easily to do it. 'Easily' here means requiring a fraction of the effort to support Jack Session at all. I've got some other gripes with Jack Session as well, but these have been discussed (or at least presented) before. I did some quick testing with some apps with JS support, and it seems to work quite well. Alas.. to make a Session Manager a success you might need some compromises and collaboration. But I do agree with you about the quit-without-save option. I have reported this already (so did Adrian Knoth). Torben thought that such a option might cause unwanted loosing data, but a message by the Session Manager with something like 'are you sure you want to quit without saving' should be sufficient I think. As far as I understood it wasn't impossible or a lot of work to implement this in the Session Manager. Regards, \r ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On 07/03/2011 02:19 AM, m.wolkst...@gmx.de wrote: Next thing what would be good to have imo is a good software mixer with JackSession support. Unfortunately non-mixer is not a good candidate afaik, cause it changes port names. I don't know if Fons is still busy with his mixer and if he has explored and made up his mind about the actual implementation of the JackSession API already. Otherwise Jack Audio Mixer might be a good candidate maybe: http://home.gna.org/jackmixer/ yes the mixer is the heart of all. and jackmixer is one of the best i ever use beside the buildin ardour mixer. cant wait for jack session support on it. Next to a software mixer, LinuxSampler should work with JackSession support. I am not sure if it's possible to patch LinuxSampler or we have to use it as a client without a state (infra client). a global jack session support sound's like a dream. jack session support is IMO the KEY or the next step to make music under linux much more attractive, productive and at least more creative. one of the main problems is the long time you need to start your lovely linux audio-system, make connections and try to remember how you can restore the set from your last cool session and so on. at least i often give up to create music, because the idea is gone after all this more or less unlikely administrative work. beside this, sometimes if everything worked as expected and you currently make really cool music, you become mournful while you are playing. why? because you now it is mostly not possible to reconstruct the current session to continue this creative process and his product(nice music). the super-GAU is when you make dozens of connections and your mixer stop working, and you directly return to your starting point. ok, this is all off-topic and for sure discussed hundreds of times. but i am often frustrated to use linux-audio applications because the eat my time without a creative output. since ~10 years, i only don't give up try working creative with linux-audio applications, because my big pighead and my unbreakable hope. Yes, would be really great if JackSession will adopted in the world of Linuxaudio in a good and broad way. So far so good! :) Regards, \r ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On 07/03/2011 11:58 AM, rosea grammostola wrote: On 07/03/2011 02:19 AM, m.wolkst...@gmx.de wrote: Next thing what would be good to have imo is a good software mixer with JackSession support. Unfortunately non-mixer is not a good candidate afaik, cause it changes port names. I don't know if Fons is still busy with his mixer and if he has explored and made up his mind about the actual implementation of the JackSession API already. Otherwise Jack Audio Mixer might be a good candidate maybe: http://home.gna.org/jackmixer/ yes the mixer is the heart of all. and jackmixer is one of the best i ever use beside the buildin ardour mixer. cant wait for jack session support on it. It's not likely to happen soon. The maintainer of jack_mixer (Jack Audio Mixer) has not much free time left. If someone else could provide the patch, that would be awesome. Regards, \r ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On Sun, Jul 03, 2011 at 11:53:29AM +0200, rosea grammostola wrote: Fons has been quite busy moving home the last weeks (not far, south of Parma to north of Parma, but it's the same exercise independent of distance anyway). Good luck with that. Thanks ! I'm at my new place, basic life support is installed, and I'm unpacking things as I need them. And using a hijacked wireless acces point since it will be a week or two before I have ADSL... One feature request already then. Could you please port the plugins of Mr Adriaensen? They are pretty good normally. ;) In the LADSPAs there's not much that could be part of a mixer. If you mean the zita-*** apps, these have been written to be used as test cases for the plugin API. Only a few have been released (at1 and rev1), but there are many more and all will be included. But not all may be GPL licensed. Alas.. to make a Session Manager a success you might need some compromises and collaboration. If 'compromises' means starting from ad-hoc solutions chosen 'to make things as easy as possible for devs' instead of doing a serious analysis, and consequently adding required functionality results in a mess, then I prefer not to make compromises. There are lots of examples of this. JSM is one of them, it's a mess even in its initial form. Ciao, -- FA ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 7:43 AM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: JSM is one of them, it's a mess even in its initial form. its important to point out that this is a criticism that could be levelled at JACK too. your analysis was thoughtful and sensible. as it turned out, neither torben nor I agreed with it. as it stands, the JACK Session API is a minimal, barely intrusive addition that gets done 90%+ of what the users of JACK wanted/needed. the design goals behind JACK have always included a strong aversion to going after the 100% solution because I and others have strong feelings about the infeasibility of it in general, mostly because of a profound awareness of the total SNAFUs that seem to happen everytime somebody tries this in software. so no, it doesn't do everything possible, or everything desirable, or everything perfectly, but it does do most of what people actually need, without having much impact on developers' own internal architecture. the lack of quit-without-save is a decision that i was opposed to, but accepted precisely because it has the potential to interfere with developer's internal architecture. most applications these days ask if you attempt to quit without saving (some will even treat the window manager close button as a trigger for this). quit-without-save (potentially) requires a new code path that circumvents whatever internal logic the program has to decide whether to ask the user. its not a huge change, but it is a change that isn't merely additive (as is the case for the rest of the API). in the interest of seeing something adopted that performs a useful role for users, it seemed better not to require supporting JACK Session to also require your program must be able to quit without any user interaction. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
Am Sun, 03 Jul 2011 11:10:08 +0200 schrieb rosea grammostola rosea.grammost...@gmail.com: On 07/03/2011 09:44 AM, Emanuel Rumpf wrote: 2011/7/2 m.wolkst...@gmx.dem.wolkst...@gmx.de: but i didn't agree to save the application data into the jack-session folder! You really should make that a user option ! Yep, I do agree with this. It starts to get complex again if all apps will have there own ways of saving. No problem if there is a additional way provided. Yes sounds good, if i had time i will include a corresponding config option. g wolke One of the main points of a session is, to keep data *together*. So everything belonging to one session goes to one single folder. If you need a backup, make the application save to a different folder *additionally*, but don't skip saving and restoring from the session folder. ... also people like me, which plays often improvised music-sessions, will create tons of sessions folders with duplicated data. Turn off the 'versioned' option in qjackctl. Delete old sessions regularly. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 9:19 AM, Robin Gareus ro...@linuxaudio.org wrote: Is quit w/o save really needed? IMHO a smarter way would be to auto-save the session every e.g. 5 mins and add keep those as revisions in a repository. if you think about it, this is also quite intrusive on application architecture. quit-with-save has all kinds of reasonably safe assumptions that can be made, even though some of them are not actually documented. the entire JACK graph is shutting down, the clients' job is to save data. contrast with an auto-save, where normal processing must continue even as it happens. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On Sun, Jul 03, 2011 at 08:10:09AM -0400, Paul Davis wrote: the lack of quit-without-save is a decision that i was opposed to, but accepted precisely because it has the potential to interfere with developer's internal architecture. most applications these days ask if you attempt to quit without saving (some will even treat the window manager close button as a trigger for this). quit-without-save (potentially) requires a new code path that circumvents whatever internal logic the program has to decide whether to ask the user. It requires nothing new, just calling the existing code that is linked to the 'Just Quit' button (using Ardour as an example). Ciao, -- FA ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 1:09 PM, Emanuel Rumpf xb...@web.de wrote: SaveAndQuit (without Quit only) is not so bad, as it appears initially. Actually I seem to like the idea of this simplification. Although one has to get used to it. What I'm really missing is SaveAndClose (without application Quit !). Restarting all applications for changing a session doesn't appear practical. i feel that if you spend too long reasoning about this, you will conclude, as I have, that JACK was actually a mistake (at least in terms of the basic framework in which to glue together different things processing data streams). the absence of a plugin API that was likely to be adopted by all/most developers back in 2000 is what gave rise to this situation. there's a limit to how far you can push the usability of a DAW built out of N independent processes, each one running code developed by different developers with no awareness of the others. the limit is, thankfully, not too primitive, but its also not far enough out to be able to pretend that JACK + N1 clients is actually functionally equivalent to a single host + plugins, at least not in terms of state management. --p ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
2011/7/3 Paul Davis p...@linuxaudiosystems.com: i feel that if you spend too long reasoning about this, you will conclude, as I have, that JACK was actually a mistake (at least in terms of the basic framework in which to glue together different things processing data streams). the absence of a plugin API that was likely to be adopted by all/most developers back in 2000 is what gave rise to this situation. there's a limit to how far you can push the usability of a DAW built out of N independent processes, each one running code developed by different developers with no awareness of the others. the limit is, thankfully, not too primitive, but its also not far enough out to be able to pretend that JACK + N1 clients is actually functionally equivalent to a single host + plugins, at least not in terms of state management. --p I see, that treading many different apps as one large entity (with state management etc.) is a difficult task. (That's why other systems decided for plugins, I think.) Unix (as operating system) doesn't particular help there. (Neither do others.) New technologies are coming (dbus, cloud-apps, etc.) but it's not clear to me, which is the best approach for such demands. I'm not dispraising JACK. It has been a very important innovation, that has pushed audio application development for linux tremendously, by creating a reliable base, with a not too difficult api. Since you are one of the main actors there, I really have to thank you for making this progression possible ! -- E.R. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 10:32 AM, Paul Davis p...@linuxaudiosystems.com wrote: i feel that if you spend too long reasoning about this, you will conclude, as I have, that JACK was actually a mistake (at least in terms of the basic framework in which to glue together different things processing data streams). the absence of a plugin API that was likely to be adopted by all/most developers back in 2000 is what gave rise to this situation. there's a limit to how far you can push the usability of a DAW built out of N independent processes, each one running code developed by different developers with no awareness of the others. the limit is, thankfully, not too primitive, but its also not far enough out to be able to pretend that JACK + N1 clients is actually functionally equivalent to a single host + plugins, at least not in terms of state management. I'm curious about what you might have done differently if you knew then what you know now. -- Devin Anderson devin (at) charityfinders (dot) com CharityFinders - http://www.charityfinders.com/ synthclone - http://synthclone.googlecode.com/ ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On Sun, Jul 03, 2011 at 12:32:53PM -0400, Paul Davis wrote: sure, which right now is not a separate function at all, but merely a branch of the finish function. not exactly a huge amount of work to split it out, but indicative of the complete (and understandable) design assumption there's no way to get here except via the GUI. otoh, you're right, in the sense that quit-WITH-save is even more complex, and faces all the same issues with threading etc, only more so because it actually has data to save etc. etc. 'Save' is also available from the Session menu, so I assume it is a separate function. Then all you need for 'Quit- without-save' is to skip it, which means one if(). Quite unrelated to all of this, I do have a question about Ardour's 'Save' semantics. There are: (1) 'Save' (2) 'Save as' (3) 'Snapshot' and (4) 'Periodic safety backups' (option) and (5) the 'save' as performed by 'Quit' or closing the main window, in case Save and quit is selected from the dialog. How do they all interact ? I could possibly find out with some hours of experimentation, but I assume this has been defined (and maybe documented) somehow. In particular: - Is there any difference between (2) and (3) except that the one suggests a name and the other doesn't ? For both the dialog says 'Name of New Snapshot'. - After (2) or (3) what does (1) do ? Overwrite the last snapshot, or use the original session name ? - After (2) or (3) what does (4) do ? - After (2) or (3) what does (5) do ? This matters a lot if starting from a the same session you make different versions of it, e.g. a stereo mix, a surround mix, and 'tapes' for a live performance (in particular this one tends to be very differerent). Or put otherwise, is a snapshot made by (2) or (3) guaranteed not to modified later by (1), (4), (5), or not ? Thanks in advance for clarifying this ! -- FA ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 4:14 PM, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: Quite unrelated to all of this, I do have a question about Ardour's 'Save' semantics. wrong context, but OK ... There are: (1) 'Save' (2) 'Save as' (3) 'Snapshot' and (4) 'Periodic safety backups' (option) and (5) the 'save' as performed by 'Quit' or closing the main window, in case Save and quit is selected from the dialog. How do they all interact ? I could possibly find out with some hours of experimentation, but I assume this has been defined (and maybe documented) somehow. In particular: - Is there any difference between (2) and (3) except that the one suggests a name and the other doesn't ? For both the dialog says 'Name of New Snapshot'. They both store session state in a file with a different basename than the main session file. Save as additionally switches the current name of the session to the newly chosen name, so that all future (1) saves will be the new files. Snapshot does not do this, so that all future (1) saves will continue to be to the normal, default session file. (4) saves the current session name (as possibly modified by Save as) .ardour.bak. This file exists purely for the use of the skilled user. Ardour does not load it, check for its existence, etc, etc. (5) is the same as (1). Or put otherwise, is a snapshot made by (2) or (3) guaranteed not to modified later by (1), (4), (5), or not ? a snapshot made by (3) will not be modified by 1, 2, 4 or 5. a snapshot made by (2) will be modified by subsequent 1 or 5. there is another potential saved state too, but you don't need to know about that :) --p ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On 3 July 2011 21:14, Fons Adriaensen f...@linuxaudio.org wrote: On Sun, Jul 03, 2011 at 12:32:53PM -0400, Paul Davis wrote: sure, which right now is not a separate function at all, but merely a branch of the finish function. not exactly a huge amount of work to split it out, but indicative of the complete (and understandable) design assumption there's no way to get here except via the GUI. otoh, you're right, in the sense that quit-WITH-save is even more complex, and faces all the same issues with threading etc, only more so because it actually has data to save etc. etc. 'Save' is also available from the Session menu, so I assume it is a separate function. Then all you need for 'Quit- without-save' is to skip it, which means one if(). Quite unrelated to all of this, I do have a question about Ardour's 'Save' semantics. There are: (1) 'Save' (2) 'Save as' (3) 'Snapshot' and (4) 'Periodic safety backups' (option) and (5) the 'save' as performed by 'Quit' or closing the main window, in case Save and quit is selected from the dialog. How do they all interact ? I could possibly find out with some hours of experimentation, but I assume this has been defined (and maybe documented) somehow. In particular: - Is there any difference between (2) and (3) except that the one suggests a name and the other doesn't ? For both the dialog says 'Name of New Snapshot'. - After (2) or (3) what does (1) do ? Overwrite the last snapshot, or use the original session name ? - After (2) or (3) what does (4) do ? - After (2) or (3) what does (5) do ? This matters a lot if starting from a the same session you make different versions of it, e.g. a stereo mix, a surround mix, and 'tapes' for a live performance (in particular this one tends to be very differerent). Or put otherwise, is a snapshot made by (2) or (3) guaranteed not to modified later by (1), (4), (5), or not ? Thanks in advance for clarifying this ! Asking the questions the rest of us assumed not knowing the answers to was a result of lesser intelligence! ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 5:32 PM, Devin Anderson de...@charityfinders.com wrote: On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 1:07 PM, Paul Davis p...@linuxaudiosystems.com wrote: On Sun, Jul 3, 2011 at 3:59 PM, Devin Anderson de...@charityfinders.com wrote: I'm curious about what you might have done differently if you knew then what you know now. what *should* have happened was a plugin API that as many developers as now use JACK would have agreed to adopt. I guess the easy thing to say here is that LV2 *could* be that API, but I don't see the same amount of interest in LV2 that there is in JACK. Maybe I'm wrong. it was true then, and and its true now. we're developers. biting off on JACK doesn't constrain you very much, and the extent to which it does generally seems to be welcome. you're still writing a program and you can still pretty much do whatever you want. biting off on a given plugin API and conceding what you're writing is just a plugin, along with all the potential hassles about control of the plugin parameters via a GUI, MIDI, OSC, potentially losing access to timeline and tempo information, etc, etc ... this is enough to deter most people and encourage them to write JACK clients. in addition, JACK gives you the instant 2 for 1 hit - plays nice with others, but also plays nice alone (or least with just the server). these are compelling reasons for a developer. they are mostly irrelevant for most users. not completely irrelevant, and not for all users. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On 07/03/2011 10:14 PM, Folderol wrote: So (excusing my ignorance) are we approaching a brick wall or is there a way out? i wouldn't know. if it's a brick wall, i'm perfectly happy banging my head into it day after day, and so are my customers. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote: ... none of the audio stuff i routinely do everyday would be possible without jack. Amen to that. Best, dp ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
2011/7/3 Dave Phillips dlphill...@woh.rr.com: Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote: ... none of the audio stuff i routinely do everyday would be possible without jack. Amen to that. I disagree with both of you. I think what you really mean is none of this would be possible without some system for interconnecting processing elements together in flexible, creative,possibly unanticipated ways that also leaves the developers of those elements free to do things in their own way. that much i'd agree with. but this is not a description that requires that the solution be at the process level. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 10:23 AM, Paul Davis p...@linuxaudiosystems.com wrote: 2011/7/3 Dave Phillips dlphill...@woh.rr.com: Jörn Nettingsmeier wrote: ... none of the audio stuff i routinely do everyday would be possible without jack. Amen to that. I disagree with both of you. I think what you really mean is none of this would be possible without some system for interconnecting processing elements together in flexible, creative,possibly unanticipated ways that also leaves the developers of those elements free to do things in their own way. that much i'd agree with. but this is not a description that requires that the solution be at the process level. While technically I'm sure you're correct, I'd add a further caveat that puts me on the side of Dave and Jörn. The specific and existing applications and inter-application communication that JACK has permitted is not easily replicable with any other given existing modular system, and there are plenty of modular systems available from PD to Max/MSP to audiomulch to bidule to Reason to ... you get the point. Given that the solution that I enjoy using the most is JACK on Linux with all of the process level folly that it entails, even though it needn't have to be that way given the plethora of non-process level alternatives, surely this must say something good about the system as a whole (or admittedly, bad about me)? -Michael ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
Am Thu, 30 Jun 2011 11:03:05 +0200
schrieb rosea grammostola rosea.grammost...@gmail.com:
huhu,
i currently finished a simple hydrogen implementation.
callback with:
save session(save the current song file)
save and exit(save and quit hydrogen)
so far so good.
but i didn't agree to save the application data into the jack-session folder!
imo, this is dangerous because you can lost all data very quick. mainly if you
overwrite
a session. also people like me, which plays often improvised music-sessions,
will
create tons of sessions folders with duplicated data.
that's why i prefer the h2 implementation with absolute filenames. so currently
h2 don't
use the ${SESSION_DIR} prefix to store the song files.
checkout hydrogen trunk to get it.
if jack/session.h is available on your system, hydrogen compile by default with
jack
session support.
lg wolke
Linux Audio Developer,
May I make a feature request here for your Linuxaudio application(s)?
Could you please add JackSession support? It makes working with JACK
standalone applications a lot more user friendly. There are some apps
who support it already and they work fine, like Yoshimi, Qtractor,
Pianoteq, Ghostess, Guitarix, Jack-Rack, Ardour3, Bristol, Seq24, Jalv,
Ingen, Connie, Specimen and probably more.
It is possible to use applications without JackSession-support in a
session (via so called infra clients), it starts the applications, make
the connections, but doesn't save the state. So obviously it would be
far more useful if those applications would get JackSession-support also.
Qjackctl is able to work as Session Manager, so is Pyjacksm (and likely
Patchage in the future).
According to comments on IRC by Paul Davis, it's very easy to add
JackSession support to your application.
Its really easy, just handle 1 more callback from the server. Torben's
walkthrough shows what is necessary.
Torben's walktrough:
http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThrough/Dev/JackSession
Thanks in advance,
\r
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Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On 07/02/2011 10:40 PM, m.wolkst...@gmx.de wrote:
Am Thu, 30 Jun 2011 11:03:05 +0200
schrieb rosea grammostolarosea.grammost...@gmail.com:
huhu,
i currently finished a simple hydrogen implementation.
callback with:
save session(save the current song file)
save and exit(save and quit hydrogen)
so far so good.
Thanks a lot! I am surprised how fast devs are picking this up. Phasex,
Hydrogen, Rakarrack ... great work already :)
Next thing what would be good to have imo is a good software mixer with
JackSession support. Unfortunately non-mixer is not a good candidate
afaik, cause it changes port names. I don't know if Fons is still busy
with his mixer and if he has explored and made up his mind about the
actual implementation of the JackSession API already. Otherwise Jack
Audio Mixer might be a good candidate maybe: http://home.gna.org/jackmixer/
but i didn't agree to save the application data into the jack-session folder!
imo, this is dangerous because you can lost all data very quick. mainly if you
overwrite
a session. also people like me, which plays often improvised music-sessions,
will
create tons of sessions folders with duplicated data.
that's why i prefer the h2 implementation with absolute filenames. so currently
h2 don't
use the ${SESSION_DIR} prefix to store the song files.
Qjackctl 0.3.8 has the possibility to use 'versioning', it makes backups
of the old folder when you overwrite it.
I wonder how much space those folders take in general and if that space
is really a problem normally.
Would be good if Torben (and/ or Rui) could comment on this.
checkout hydrogen trunk to get it.
if jack/session.h is available on your system, hydrogen compile by default with
jack
session support.
Regards,
\r
lg wolke
Linux Audio Developer,
May I make a feature request here for your Linuxaudio application(s)?
Could you please add JackSession support? It makes working with JACK
standalone applications a lot more user friendly. There are some apps
who support it already and they work fine, like Yoshimi, Qtractor,
Pianoteq, Ghostess, Guitarix, Jack-Rack, Ardour3, Bristol, Seq24, Jalv,
Ingen, Connie, Specimen and probably more.
It is possible to use applications without JackSession-support in a
session (via so called infra clients), it starts the applications, make
the connections, but doesn't save the state. So obviously it would be
far more useful if those applications would get JackSession-support also.
Qjackctl is able to work as Session Manager, so is Pyjacksm (and likely
Patchage in the future).
According to comments on IRC by Paul Davis, it's very easy to add
JackSession support to your application.
Its really easy, just handle 1 more callback from the server. Torben's
walkthrough shows what is necessary.
Torben's walktrough:
http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThrough/Dev/JackSession
Thanks in advance,
\r
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Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On Sat, Jul 02, 2011 at 11:02:27PM +0200, rosea grammostola wrote: Next thing what would be good to have imo is a good software mixer with JackSession support. Unfortunately non-mixer is not a good candidate afaik, cause it changes port names. I don't know if Fons is still busy with his mixer and if he has explored and made up his mind about the actual implementation of the JackSession API already. Fons has been quite busy moving home the last weeks (not far, south of Parma to north of Parma, but it's the same exercise independent of distance anyway). As to the mixer, yes I'm still working on it. A lot of thinking has gone into the design, and some aspects of it may turn out to be surprising as they break with Linux Audio traditions. One of them is external connections. The mixer will be able to use Jack of course, but does not require it. When using Jack, it will have a configurable number of inputs and outputs which have fixed names, just input-%d or output-%d. Any one of these can be patched internally to any channel, group, insert, send, or whatever that makes sense. The idea behind this is that Jack connections are fixed, and any session dependent wiring is done internally. A second one is the plugin system wich will be specific to this application. I will not even support LADSPA. If anyone wants to use his/her favourite plugin with this mixer, just convince me to port it - the criterion will be the quality of the plugin - or do it yourself. As to Jack Session support, I won't even consider it as long as it doesn't support quit-without-save. The rationale for not supporting this is IMNSHO completely bogus. I just can't imagine any app that a) can't do this, and b) can't be modified easily to do it. 'Easily' here means requiring a fraction of the effort to support Jack Session at all. I've got some other gripes with Jack Session as well, but these have been discussed (or at least presented) before. Ciao, -- FA ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
Am Sat, 02 Jul 2011 23:02:27 +0200
schrieb rosea grammostola rosea.grammost...@gmail.com:
On 07/02/2011 10:40 PM, m.wolkst...@gmx.de wrote:
Am Thu, 30 Jun 2011 11:03:05 +0200
schrieb rosea grammostolarosea.grammost...@gmail.com:
huhu,
i currently finished a simple hydrogen implementation.
callback with:
save session(save the current song file)
save and exit(save and quit hydrogen)
so far so good.
Thanks a lot! I am surprised how fast devs are picking this up. Phasex,
Hydrogen, Rakarrack ... great work already :)
Next thing what would be good to have imo is a good software mixer with
JackSession support. Unfortunately non-mixer is not a good candidate
afaik, cause it changes port names. I don't know if Fons is still busy
with his mixer and if he has explored and made up his mind about the
actual implementation of the JackSession API already. Otherwise Jack
Audio Mixer might be a good candidate maybe: http://home.gna.org/jackmixer/
yes the mixer is the heart of all. and jackmixer is one of the best i ever use
beside the buildin ardour mixer. cant wait for jack session support on it.
a global jack session support sound's like a dream. jack session support is IMO
the KEY
or the next step to make music under linux much more attractive, productive and
at least
more creative. one of the main problems is the long time you need to start your
lovely
linux audio-system, make connections and try to remember how you can restore
the set from
your last cool session and so on. at least i often give up to create music,
because the
idea is gone after all this more or less unlikely administrative work.
beside this, sometimes if everything worked as expected and you currently make
really
cool music, you become mournful while you are playing. why? because you now it
is mostly
not possible to reconstruct the current session to continue this creative
process and his
product(nice music). the super-GAU is when you make dozens of connections and
your mixer
stop working, and you directly return to your starting point.
ok, this is all off-topic and for sure discussed hundreds of times. but i am
often
frustrated to use linux-audio applications because the eat my time without a
creative
output. since ~10 years, i only don't give up try working creative with
linux-audio
applications, because my big pighead and my unbreakable hope.
g wolke
but i didn't agree to save the application data into the jack-session
folder!
imo, this is dangerous because you can lost all data very quick. mainly if
you
overwrite a session. also people like me, which plays often improvised
music-sessions, will create tons of sessions folders with duplicated data.
that's why i prefer the h2 implementation with absolute filenames. so
currently h2
don't use the ${SESSION_DIR} prefix to store the song files.
Qjackctl 0.3.8 has the possibility to use 'versioning', it makes backups
of the old folder when you overwrite it.
I wonder how much space those folders take in general and if that space
is really a problem normally.
Would be good if Torben (and/ or Rui) could comment on this.
checkout hydrogen trunk to get it.
if jack/session.h is available on your system, hydrogen compile by default
with jack
session support.
Regards,
\r
lg wolke
Linux Audio Developer,
May I make a feature request here for your Linuxaudio application(s)?
Could you please add JackSession support? It makes working with JACK
standalone applications a lot more user friendly. There are some apps
who support it already and they work fine, like Yoshimi, Qtractor,
Pianoteq, Ghostess, Guitarix, Jack-Rack, Ardour3, Bristol, Seq24, Jalv,
Ingen, Connie, Specimen and probably more.
It is possible to use applications without JackSession-support in a
session (via so called infra clients), it starts the applications, make
the connections, but doesn't save the state. So obviously it would be
far more useful if those applications would get JackSession-support also.
Qjackctl is able to work as Session Manager, so is Pyjacksm (and likely
Patchage in the future).
According to comments on IRC by Paul Davis, it's very easy to add
JackSession support to your application.
Its really easy, just handle 1 more callback from the server. Torben's
walkthrough shows what is necessary.
Torben's walktrough:
http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThrough/Dev/JackSession
Thanks in advance,
\r
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[LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
Linux Audio Developer, May I make a feature request here for your Linuxaudio application(s)? Could you please add JackSession support? It makes working with JACK standalone applications a lot more user friendly. There are some apps who support it already and they work fine, like Yoshimi, Qtractor, Pianoteq, Ghostess, Guitarix, Jack-Rack, Ardour3, Bristol, Seq24, Jalv, Ingen, Connie, Specimen and probably more. It is possible to use applications without JackSession-support in a session (via so called infra clients), it starts the applications, make the connections, but doesn't save the state. So obviously it would be far more useful if those applications would get JackSession-support also. Qjackctl is able to work as Session Manager, so is Pyjacksm (and likely Patchage in the future). According to comments on IRC by Paul Davis, it's very easy to add JackSession support to your application. Its really easy, just handle 1 more callback from the server. Torben's walkthrough shows what is necessary. Torben's walktrough: http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThrough/Dev/JackSession Thanks in advance, \r ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 11:03:05 +0200 rosea grammostola rosea.grammost...@gmail.com wrote: Linux Audio Developer, May I make a feature request here for your Linuxaudio application(s)? Could you please add JackSession support? It makes working with JACK standalone applications a lot more user friendly. There are some apps who support it already and they work fine, like Yoshimi, Qtractor, Pianoteq, Ghostess, Guitarix, Jack-Rack, Ardour3, Bristol, Seq24, Jalv, Ingen, Connie, Specimen and probably more. It is possible to use applications without JackSession-support in a session (via so called infra clients), it starts the applications, make the connections, but doesn't save the state. So obviously it would be far more useful if those applications would get JackSession-support also. Qjackctl is able to work as Session Manager, so is Pyjacksm (and likely Patchage in the future). According to comments on IRC by Paul Davis, it's very easy to add JackSession support to your application. Its really easy, just handle 1 more callback from the server. Torben's walkthrough shows what is necessary. Torben's walktrough: http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThrough/Dev/JackSession Thanks in advance, \r I second this, I tried using jacksession a few days ago and it seems to me it works very well; it does what it should and nothing more, it is not intrusive cheers renato ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On 06/30/2011 11:31 AM, Renato wrote: On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 11:03:05 +0200 rosea grammostolarosea.grammost...@gmail.com wrote: Linux Audio Developer, May I make a feature request here for your Linuxaudio application(s)? Could you please add JackSession support? It makes working with JACK standalone applications a lot more user friendly. There are some apps who support it already and they work fine, like Yoshimi, Qtractor, Pianoteq, Ghostess, Guitarix, Jack-Rack, Ardour3, Bristol, Seq24, Jalv, Ingen, Connie, Specimen and probably more. It is possible to use applications without JackSession-support in a session (via so called infra clients), it starts the applications, make the connections, but doesn't save the state. So obviously it would be far more useful if those applications would get JackSession-support also. Qjackctl is able to work as Session Manager, so is Pyjacksm (and likely Patchage in the future). According to comments on IRC by Paul Davis, it's very easy to add JackSession support to your application. Its really easy, just handle 1 more callback from the server. Torben's walkthrough shows what is necessary. Torben's walktrough: http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThrough/Dev/JackSession Thanks in advance, \r I second this, I tried using jacksession a few days ago and it seems to me it works very well; it does what it should and nothing more, it is not intrusive Maybe good to note also is that almost all recent distros (also multimedia distros like AVLinux, Tango Studio etc.) have the latest Jackd version these days (JACK1 and/ or JACK2, both support JackSession). So apps with JackSession support are compiled with JackSession automatically on those distros (no need to add a patch or a special build parameter or anything like that). :) Regards, \r ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
Am Thu, 30 Jun 2011 11:43:50 +0200 schrieb rosea grammostola rosea.grammost...@gmail.com: On 06/30/2011 11:31 AM, Renato wrote: On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 11:03:05 +0200 rosea grammostolarosea.grammost...@gmail.com wrote: Linux Audio Developer, May I make a feature request here for your Linuxaudio application(s)? Could you please add JackSession support? It makes working with JACK standalone applications a lot more user friendly. There are some apps who support it already and they work fine, like Yoshimi, Qtractor, Pianoteq, Ghostess, Guitarix, Jack-Rack, Ardour3, Bristol, Seq24, Jalv, Ingen, Connie, Specimen and probably more. It is possible to use applications without JackSession-support in a session (via so called infra clients), it starts the applications, make the connections, but doesn't save the state. So obviously it would be far more useful if those applications would get JackSession-support also. Qjackctl is able to work as Session Manager, so is Pyjacksm (and likely Patchage in the future). According to comments on IRC by Paul Davis, it's very easy to add JackSession support to your application. Its really easy, just handle 1 more callback from the server. Torben's walkthrough shows what is necessary. Torben's walktrough: http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThrough/Dev/JackSession Thanks in advance, \r I second this, I tried using jacksession a few days ago and it seems to me it works very well; it does what it should and nothing more, it is not intrusive Maybe good to note also is that almost all recent distros (also multimedia distros like AVLinux, Tango Studio etc.) have the latest Jackd version these days (JACK1 and/ or JACK2, both support JackSession). So apps with JackSession support are compiled with JackSession automatically on those distros (no need to add a patch or a special build parameter or anything like that). :) Regards, \r hey ho, i am very interested to implement jack session into hydrogen. but i am a bit confused about how it is to use as a user. i understand how to implement it into an application. thx to http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThrough/Dev/JackSession. but i miss a simple howto use jacksession in your local audio envirement. whatever exist such a document for dummies like me? lg wolke ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
Understanding the dev side and not the user side, that is the world up-side-down for me ;) That is quite possible -- the API that a host (session handler) uses to communicate with clients / plugins / whatever says nothing about how that host calls those API functions, how it structures disk storage, etc. Note that for developers there is also API documentation, which explains some things better: http://jackaudio.org/files/docs/html/group__SessionClientFunctions.html http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThrough/User/jack_session This one looks unfortunately very thin at the moment... -- Dan ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
Am Thu, 30 Jun 2011 12:22:01 +0200 schrieb rosea grammostola rosea.grammost...@gmail.com: On 06/30/2011 12:11 PM, rosea grammostola wrote: On 06/30/2011 12:00 PM, m.wolkst...@gmx.de wrote: Am Thu, 30 Jun 2011 11:43:50 +0200 schrieb rosea grammostolarosea.grammost...@gmail.com: On 06/30/2011 11:31 AM, Renato wrote: On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 11:03:05 +0200 rosea grammostolarosea.grammost...@gmail.com wrote: Linux Audio Developer, May I make a feature request here for your Linuxaudio application(s)? Could you please add JackSession support? It makes working with JACK standalone applications a lot more user friendly. There are some apps who support it already and they work fine, like Yoshimi, Qtractor, Pianoteq, Ghostess, Guitarix, Jack-Rack, Ardour3, Bristol, Seq24, Jalv, Ingen, Connie, Specimen and probably more. It is possible to use applications without JackSession-support in a session (via so called infra clients), it starts the applications, make the connections, but doesn't save the state. So obviously it would be far more useful if those applications would get JackSession-support also. Qjackctl is able to work as Session Manager, so is Pyjacksm (and likely Patchage in the future). According to comments on IRC by Paul Davis, it's very easy to add JackSession support to your application. Its really easy, just handle 1 more callback from the server. Torben's walkthrough shows what is necessary. Torben's walktrough: http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThrough/Dev/JackSession Thanks in advance, \r I second this, I tried using jacksession a few days ago and it seems to me it works very well; it does what it should and nothing more, it is not intrusive Maybe good to note also is that almost all recent distros (also multimedia distros like AVLinux, Tango Studio etc.) have the latest Jackd version these days (JACK1 and/ or JACK2, both support JackSession). So apps with JackSession support are compiled with JackSession automatically on those distros (no need to add a patch or a special build parameter or anything like that). :) Regards, \r hey ho, i am very interested to implement jack session into hydrogen. but i am a bit confused about how it is to use as a user. i understand how to implement it into an application. thx to http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThrough/Dev/JackSession. but i miss a simple howto use jacksession in your local audio envirement. whatever exist such a document for dummies like me? Wolke, Understanding the dev side and not the user side, that is the world up-side-down for me ;) http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThrough/User/jack_session You need Jackd = 0.120 or 1.9.7 and qjackctl 0.3.7 Start qjackctl, start JACK Start an app with JS support (yoshimi) Make the desired connections In qjackctl 0.3.7, you have a session window, open it. Save session Make a *new* folder (be careful not to overwrite an other folder (should become more safe in the next Qjackctl version)) Select that new folder to save the session to. You have to browse one subfolder backwards to be able to select your new session folder likely. You can quit the session by just quitting the applications, or choose save (save and quit) It is possible to overwrite an existing Jacksession folder (again, be careful to overwrite the right one!!!) Atm there is no way to stop a session via a button without saving the session ... You can load the session via the load button in the Session window of Qjackctl, choose the right session folder. That's the new folder you made to save the session obviously. HTH \r thx, for your quick response. in fact that will help me. i just noticed the new session button in qjackctl. super, so far this will looks like an easy to use session handler. and yes, i am a lazy bugger:). mostly i use my spare time for other things, than to find out how computers applications will work. lg wolke ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On 06/30/2011 01:13 PM, m.wolkst...@gmx.de wrote: Am Thu, 30 Jun 2011 12:22:01 +0200 schrieb rosea grammostolarosea.grammost...@gmail.com: On 06/30/2011 12:11 PM, rosea grammostola wrote: On 06/30/2011 12:00 PM, m.wolkst...@gmx.de wrote: Am Thu, 30 Jun 2011 11:43:50 +0200 schrieb rosea grammostolarosea.grammost...@gmail.com: On 06/30/2011 11:31 AM, Renato wrote: On Thu, 30 Jun 2011 11:03:05 +0200 rosea grammostolarosea.grammost...@gmail.comwrote: Linux Audio Developer, May I make a feature request here for your Linuxaudio application(s)? Could you please add JackSession support? It makes working with JACK standalone applications a lot more user friendly. There are some apps who support it already and they work fine, like Yoshimi, Qtractor, Pianoteq, Ghostess, Guitarix, Jack-Rack, Ardour3, Bristol, Seq24, Jalv, Ingen, Connie, Specimen and probably more. It is possible to use applications without JackSession-support in a session (via so called infra clients), it starts the applications, make the connections, but doesn't save the state. So obviously it would be far more useful if those applications would get JackSession-support also. Qjackctl is able to work as Session Manager, so is Pyjacksm (and likely Patchage in the future). According to comments on IRC by Paul Davis, it's very easy to add JackSession support to your application. Its really easy, just handle 1 more callback from the server. Torben's walkthrough shows what is necessary. Torben's walktrough: http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThrough/Dev/JackSession Thanks in advance, \r I second this, I tried using jacksession a few days ago and it seems to me it works very well; it does what it should and nothing more, it is not intrusive Maybe good to note also is that almost all recent distros (also multimedia distros like AVLinux, Tango Studio etc.) have the latest Jackd version these days (JACK1 and/ or JACK2, both support JackSession). So apps with JackSession support are compiled with JackSession automatically on those distros (no need to add a patch or a special build parameter or anything like that). :) Regards, \r hey ho, i am very interested to implement jack session into hydrogen. but i am a bit confused about how it is to use as a user. i understand how to implement it into an application. thx to http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThrough/Dev/JackSession. but i miss a simple howto use jacksession in your local audio envirement. whatever exist such a document for dummies like me? Wolke, Understanding the dev side and not the user side, that is the world up-side-down for me ;) http://trac.jackaudio.org/wiki/WalkThrough/User/jack_session You need Jackd = 0.120 or 1.9.7 and qjackctl 0.3.7 Start qjackctl, start JACK Start an app with JS support (yoshimi) Make the desired connections In qjackctl 0.3.7, you have a session window, open it. Save session Make a *new* folder (be careful not to overwrite an other folder (should become more safe in the next Qjackctl version)) Select that new folder to save the session to. You have to browse one subfolder backwards to be able to select your new session folder likely. You can quit the session by just quitting the applications, or choose save (save and quit) It is possible to overwrite an existing Jacksession folder (again, be careful to overwrite the right one!!!) Atm there is no way to stop a session via a button without saving the session ... You can load the session via the load button in the Session window of Qjackctl, choose the right session folder. That's the new folder you made to save the session obviously. HTH \r thx, for your quick response. in fact that will help me. i just noticed the new session button in qjackctl. super, so far this will looks like an easy to use session handler. and yes, i am a lazy bugger:). mostly i use my spare time for other things, than to find out how computers applications will work. Glad to help here. Hydrogen is a typical application where JackSession is very useful imo. Same is true for PHASEX, Rakarrack, Lv2rack (and other LV2 hosts), VMPK, Patchage, Composite and all other similar JACK standalone applications. ;) Best regards, \r ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On Thu, 2011-06-30 at 11:03 +0200, rosea grammostola wrote: [...] Qjackctl is able to work as Session Manager, so is Pyjacksm (and likely Patchage in the future). There is very preliminary support in Patchage in SVN, but the format in which it currently saves sessions is a bit sketchy. The next release will hopefully be ready soon and have proper Jack session manager support (as well as massive memory consumption improvements). -dr ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Feature requests: add JackSession support
On 06/30/2011 06:20 PM, David Robillard wrote: On Thu, 2011-06-30 at 11:03 +0200, rosea grammostola wrote: [...] Qjackctl is able to work as Session Manager, so is Pyjacksm (and likely Patchage in the future). There is very preliminary support in Patchage in SVN, but the format in which it currently saves sessions is a bit sketchy. The next release will hopefully be ready soon and have proper Jack session manager support (as well as massive memory consumption improvements). Wow, how great is that! Thanks. \r ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
