Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
2012/8/31 Harry van Haaren harryhaa...@gmail.com: The community could approach NI and ask if they're intrested in supporting a Linux version of Kontact? 1. they won't 2. if they do, kontakt still won't be open source 3. if linuxsampler would support the kontakt format, the format would change (this already happend in kontakt 4.1) conclusion: 1. don't use the kontakt sampler (or other proprietary sw) 2. don't buy kontakt samples 3. support free, libre sample libraries 4. create free, libre sample libraries this appears as the most effective stategie and long time solution links: http://sso.mattiaswestlund.net/ http://freepats.zenvoid.org/ -- E.R. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 4:34 PM, Emanuel Rumpf wrote: 3. if linuxsampler would support the kontakt format, the format would change (this already happend in kontakt 4.1) And this observation is based on what exactly? conclusion: 1. don't use the kontakt sampler (or other proprietary sw) And stop making music. 2. don't buy kontakt samples What else is there? 3. support free, libre sample libraries Where are they? 4. create free, libre sample libraries Would you like to start producing some? P.S. Am I the only one who finds it weird to follow the same thread in two lists? Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
Please note that the following may sound very sarcastic, but actually it is not (except the part about my bank account). I expect this type of work that needs to be done to develop and create a modern, state-of-the art sample lib like Orchestral Strings or a Choir incl. wordbuilder from 'scratch', or from our current Open Source knowledge. The timespans may be horribly off, but I suspect in the end they would be longer than speculated here, not shorter. Am Sat, 1 Sep 2012 14:34:19 +0200 schrieb Emanuel Rumpf xb...@web.de: -- 4. create free, libre sample libraries this appears as the most effective stategie and long time solution It is. So let's begin. I am willing to do the lead here. But I need someone who pays me and a small team of developers and recording engineers for about 3 years. I will drop everything what I am doing right now and concentrate fully on this job. Whoever pays please write me a private mail and I'll send you my contact and bank account data. More expenses: ~50 musicians for a shorter timespan (maybe a few weeks or months, taking into account that there is maybe no actual knowledge of the recording process for this task so we need to experiment more) to do the actual recordings, recording equipment, computers, workspace and renting places/studio to record. The first months will be only research and design, then two years you would not see anything except changes in git account because we need to develop an open sampling format and a GPL engine/sample host. And then the recording and post processing. Given that this would be a GPL and CC-By (or similar) project, already paid in advanced, mouth-to-mouth propaganda about a zero-cost and open source lib will do all the marketing. My alternative plan would be to do 10 to 20 years of long-time research on physical modelling of instruments, instrument groups and an A.I. musical interpreter. Longer timespan, but in the end everything real and unreal will be possible and the sampling-era will be over. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
2012/8/31 John Rigg la...@jrigg.co.uk: Thanks for taking the initiative on this. The lack of high quality samples usable on a Linux system has been quite a problem. What, more closely, is a high quality sample (today) ? Is it very different, from what it was ten years ago ? If yes, why did it fit formerly, but not today ? Have our ears eventually improved within that time-period ? -- E.R. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Sat, Sep 01, 2012 at 03:39:27PM +0200, Emanuel Rumpf wrote: 2012/8/31 John Rigg: Thanks for taking the initiative on this. The lack of high quality samples usable on a Linux system has been quite a problem. What, more closely, is a high quality sample (today) ? Is it very different, from what it was ten years ago ? If yes, why did it fit formerly, but not today ? Have our ears eventually improved within that time-period ? What has changed is production budgets. Ten years ago there was more money available for hiring real musicians along with places to record them in and technical personnel to do it. If you're recording soundtracks for TV or film you need samples that are good enough to replace the real thing unless you're lucky enough to be working on the biggest productions. John ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
Hi Emanuel, On 01.09.2012, at 15:39, Emanuel Rumpf xb...@web.de wrote: 2012/8/31 John Rigg la...@jrigg.co.uk: Thanks for taking the initiative on this. The lack of high quality samples usable on a Linux system has been quite a problem. What, more closely, is a high quality sample (today) ? Is it very different, from what it was ten years ago ? If yes, why did it fit formerly, but not today ? Have our ears eventually improved within that time-period ? The technical possibilities have changed quite a bit. In the early Kontakt days shipping a library was all about sample file quality. The bigger (size file) the library was, the better the quality. Today the quality almost entirely depends on the programming of the instrument you buy together with the samples. The capabilities (scripting, effects, etc) of the sample engines have completely changed the instrument building process. At the same time the user interface got more and more important. You no longer need to be a real hardcore musician to get decent results. Less parameters tailored to the current instrument, presented in a much nicer way help the users to tweak the sounds to their needs without the risk to mess the whole thing up. So just looking at the sample not much has changed, but looking at the big picture then it is a completely different world. Best, Florian ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
Hi Patrick, well put, i think this pretty much reflects the current situation. I'm definitely open to discuss with the community what potential the linux market might have. Once you have your stuff together please get in touch with me. Best, Florian On 01.09.2012, at 03:56, Patrick Shirkey pshir...@boosthardware.com wrote: On Sat, September 1, 2012 3:12 am, Harry van Haaren wrote: On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Paul Davis p...@linuxaudiosystems.comwrote: A lot of people (even on this list) don't understand the extent to which *supporting* a piece of software is often a far bigger cost than the initial development, and providing support for a platform with very few users is an issue for companies who want their customer service reputation to be very good (as NI does). It doesn't work for companies like this to just release something into the wild and forget about it. That's a fair point. And also one I'm not in a place to make : I'm not currently doing any software support. Still I do feel that if there could be an interaction whereby the linux audio community gets enough info to use Kontact samples natively in JACK that would be awesome. With risk of talking about what I'm not an expert in: I could see some kind of binary .so distributed by NI that houses the Kontact internals, with a header file describing how to use it. If this could be adapted into the shape of a LinuxSampler engine, then win-win right? -NI don't have to do support: the only customer for thier .so is a developer, so support isn't even the right word. -LinuxSampler is an established project: why repeat all that has already been done? -Kontact usage goes up (strengthens brand name.. etc etc) and I'll buy samples from NI. Again intrested on views... also from the Linux sampler guys if such an endeavor would even be possible given that the politics work out. -Harry I think Paul has already framed this. They are not comfortable putting it out in the wild unless they are sure that their quality standards will be met. In that case they will need to have a support agreement with the LS guys and that means Christian et al will have to work, which means unless they can get NI to pay them for their time they either have to work for free or make enough money from the associated projects that gain by having NI support. Given that almost no one in this mailing list actually spends significant amounts of money on Linux Audio Software that means they have to get income from a much larger userbase and until we have definitive proof that userbase is going to contribute income to the project the only thing driving it forward is self motivation. So, if we want projects like this to succeed we as a community have to be prepared to make the effort to educate the wider market. Which means everyone contributing to the global marketing effort... So, get our your blogs, your tweet decks, your facebooks, your pinterests, your myspace and your diggs, start writing keyword rich content and linking it back to our community landing pages, flood the forums with links, and even gasp *pay* real money for advertising in real physical media like magazines and trade journals and then let's see how big our global userbase really is. As it stands there is a push towards NAMM in January 2013 but compared to the rest of the noise out there it will be easily lost in the crowd if we don't put in the time to capitalise on it. Those people who are in the States and have some spare time and resources might want to consider getting involved in a grassroots education campaign for the NAMM conference. There are several companies that are going to be there this year so having a side event or even pooling resources to make a theme might raise some eyebrows in a good way. One thing we have going for us is that the products we make are definitely high end so that is a good place to start if we want to create a marketing theme and educational campaign based around it. -- Patrick Shirkey Boost Hardware Ltd ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
Hi Harry, i'm curious, what exactly would be the linux version of Kontakt? Kontakt VST for Linux? Standalone? DSSI? LV2? What is necessary to cover 95% of the users? Thanks, Florian On 31.08.2012, at 15:43, Harry van Haaren harryhaa...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Nils l...@nilsgey.de wrote: The direct and naive solution would be a reversed engineered kontakt sample engine, yes. Very naive. The community could approach NI and ask if they're intrested in supporting a Linux version of Kontact? I volunteer to write the email, and if they laugh then what harm done... Opinions? ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev -- Florian Schirmer Vice President of Engineering Tel +49-30-611035-1825 Fax +49-30-611035-2825 florian.schir...@native-instruments.de NATIVE INSTRUMENTS GmbH Schlesische Str. 29-30 10997 Berlin, Germany http://www.native-instruments.com *** KOMPLETE 8 ULTIMATE - the premium NI producer collection = http://www.native-instruments.com/komplete8 TRAKTOR KONTROL S2 - the professional 2.1 DJ system = http://www.native-instruments.com/s2 - NATIVE INSTRUMENTS - The Future of Sound - Registergericht: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg Registernummer: HRB 72458 UST.-ID.-Nr. DE 20 374 7747 Geschäftsführung: Daniel Haver (CEO), Mate Galic ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24) - Once again free samples, this time more uplifting
Hi Nils, On 31.08.2012, at 02:06, Nils l...@nilsgey.de wrote: Sadly many of those instruments are in .nki or .nk* format which is the Kontakt Player or Kontakt Something Fullversion format. The wave samples are (often? by design?) there as plain files, but it is hard work to guess how they should be arranged and what is needed. As far as I know the kontakt format has more features, such as scripting, than sfz, which is currently the Linux sample flagship. I hope I am wrong here. No, you're correct. As i've written in my other mail to LAD, todays sample libraries are much more than samples and the respective mapping on keys / velocity layers. Scripting and all the advanced engine features is what makes the difference. Just extracting the samples and mapping information from a Kontakt library will end up in very disappointing results. I know there are sample converter programs (for Windows) like Chicken Translator or the W. Grabowski Extreme Sample Converter. I have used them and even simple conversions like sf2 to gig, or gig to sfz were always a bit odd or plain wrong. They have menu entries for Kontakt and EXS24 (the Apple Logic Sampler format, you see that quite often as well) but I don't believe that will actually produce accurate conversions. Some of those tools are using a library which we'll provide to read and write the Kontakt format. Of course they can only convert the information supported by both the source and the destination format. Is there someone who knows more about these formats? Even if it is not possible to write a sampler engine (it would not be the first [partly]binary, closed format loaded by open source software) maybe there is at least a way to get all the needed information to convert/correct them by hand or individual scripts. Besides the technical problem there is also a legal problem involved here. To protect the IP of sample developers the instruments sold by 3rd party developers are encrypted. My guess would be that using something like Autosampler to capture a certain snapshot of a library and convert that into something that your favorite can read is by far the most promising solution. But of course this depends on what you're looking for. Best, Florian___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
Florian, Standalone JACK client would work pretty much everywhere (the 95% you mentioned), but workflow-wise a native VST would (arguably) be preferable. Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org On Sun, Sep 2, 2012 at 1:44 AM, Florian Schirmer florian.schir...@native-instruments.de wrote: Hi Harry, i'm curious, what exactly would be the linux version of Kontakt? Kontakt VST for Linux? Standalone? DSSI? LV2? What is necessary to cover 95% of the users? Thanks, Florian ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24) - Once again free samples, this time more uplifting
On Sun, 2 Sep 2012 00:13:37 +0200 Florian Schirmer florian.schir...@native-instruments.de wrote: Besides the technical problem there is also a legal problem involved here. To protect the IP of sample developers the instruments sold by 3rd party developers are encrypted. My guess would be that using something like Autosampler to capture a certain snapshot of a library and convert that into something that your favorite can read is by far the most promising solution. But of course this depends on what you're looking for. Best, Florian What I am really looking for is an open format, of course I don't expect this from you/your company :) Since I do not own windows, kontakt or any kontakt instruments (which wouldn't make sense without the OS in the beginning) my contact with Kontakt is only through freebies. Since most of them are easy-to-record, one-shot (count=1 in sfz syntax) percussion samples it is no problem to create a sfz by hand (or scripts) for the plain wave files, once you have the license. This format is good enough for these type of home-made samples. What I hope to learn, partly through finding out how the kontakt format works, is what the format can do and how people create/record instruments for it or in other words: What is a good recording basis for good instruments, since the programming and scripting part is much more forgivable to errors. This would be the complementary approach to my own: I am not a programmer but composer and music theorist (Student Tonsatz, Musikhochschule Köln) so I don't think that much in algorhithms and scripts but more from the music and instruments point of view and how to elementarize and abstract the playing styles and only as second step how to script that. When it comes to Kontakt itself a practical approach would be ok as well. If there is a native kontakt version I can live with the closed eco system as well. I have one important technical question for you: Is the Kontakt instrument format purely interpreted or is there some binary executable in it? That is: Given that there is an (official) host implementation native to Linux would all the instrument run at once or would the sample authors be required to adjust their instruments and re-release? If it is 100% interpreted and OS-independent then the market simply increases with Linux, without additional effort for the 3rd party instrument developers. Nils http://www.nilsgey.de ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24) - Once again free samples, this time more uplifting
On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 3:13 PM, Florian Schirmer florian.schir...@native-instruments.de wrote: Is there someone who knows more about these formats? Even if it is not possible to write a sampler engine (it would not be the first [partly]binary, closed format loaded by open source software) maybe there is at least a way to get all the needed information to convert/correct them by hand or individual scripts. Besides the technical problem there is also a legal problem involved here. To protect the IP of sample developers the instruments sold by 3rd party developers are encrypted. My guess would be that using something like Autosampler to capture a certain snapshot of a library and convert that into something that your favorite can read is by far the most promising solution. But of course this depends on what you're looking for. I haven't heard of Autosampler until now, but this seems like an appropriate time to bring up synthclone: http://synthclone.googlecode.com/ ... which has some similar features, is free, and has a plugin API that allows a programmer to add missing functionality. -- Devin Anderson surfacepatterns (at) gmail (dot) com blog - http://surfacepatterns.blogspot.com/ psinsights - http://psinsights.googlecode.com/ synthclone - http://synthclone.googlecode.com/ ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 6:26 PM, Florian Schirmer florian.schir...@native-instruments.de wrote: Sure, just let me know what kind of issue there are. As Paul already mentioned there is also native Jack support in all NI apps. Since Jack is not very common in the Windows world it is probably untested and/or not working all at. I'm using Kontakt on Windows... are you saying it will support Jack, or just the OSX version (would be great to control it via Netjack from my Linux workstation, it works fairly well with MIDI clock sent from Ardour on Linux) -- Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.brettwmccoy.com In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world. -- Jelaleddin Rumi ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 1:34 PM, Emanuel Rumpf xb...@web.de wrote: conclusion: 1. don't use the kontakt sampler (or other proprietary sw) 2. don't buy kontakt samples 3. support free, libre sample libraries 4. create free, libre sample libraries this appears as the most effective stategie and long time solution Although I admire your determination for and devotion to FLOSS, I'm not currently satisfied with the tools and especially instruments (real instrument recreations or electronic). I do not mean to offend the wonderful efforts done by the community already: and I would like to point out that there are significant projects that I use to make music. But in the end of the day: I have to put more effort into getting the sound I want using linux tools than Mac or Win. Although its very honourable to only support FLOSS, I also want to make music that sounds *great* not just *good*. If paying for instruments like Modartt's Pianoteqhttp://www.pianoteq.com/, then I'll do that. It sounds *wonderful*, not like a 90's MIDI Dance piano. With that said, I'll get back to reading the rest of this thread :) -Harry ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
Hi Florian, Thanks for taking the time to contribute to the conversation. I'm agreement with Alexandre Prokudine, a standalone JACK application for 32 bit and 64bit would cover 95% of the target audience. Perhaps it would not afford entirely to my intended workflow with Kontact (namely using as a plugin in Ardour3): but it would be a huge step forward. Although a native VST would also be possible: I (speaking for myself, as its a delicate topic) feel it is a step in the wrong direction. I'm currently using LV2 as my main plugin platform: DSSI and LADSPA days are (again in my opinion) over, while VST's license makes it a bad choice. LV2 is still an emerging plugin standard: But since it is extensible and can be backwards compatible: I feel it is the future. It does involve learning a new plugin language, and due to its extensibility I have found it quite hard to learn. That said I'm not a wizard coder, so it could be my own personal learning curve I'm up against. Or most likely a bit of both. I feel I should mention that although I would like to spend time to attempt to realize a Linux version of Kontact, I do not have extensive experience in the field of sample engines or porting software. That said, I'm all up for learning :) Looking forward to a response, -Harry On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 10:44 PM, Florian Schirmer florian.schir...@native-instruments.de wrote: Hi Harry, i'm curious, what exactly would be the linux version of Kontakt? Kontakt VST for Linux? Standalone? DSSI? LV2? What is necessary to cover 95% of the users? Thanks, Florian On 31.08.2012, at 15:43, Harry van Haaren harryhaa...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Nils l...@nilsgey.de wrote: The direct and naive solution would be a reversed engineered kontakt sample engine, yes. Very naive. The community could approach NI and ask if they're intrested in supporting a Linux version of Kontact? I volunteer to write the email, and if they laugh then what harm done... Opinions? ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev -- Florian Schirmer Vice President of Engineering Tel +49-30-611035-1825 Fax +49-30-611035-2825 florian.schir...@native-instruments.de NATIVE INSTRUMENTS GmbH Schlesische Str. 29-30 10997 Berlin, Germany http://www.native-instruments.com *** KOMPLETE 8 ULTIMATE - the premium NI producer collection = http://www.native-instruments.com/komplete8 TRAKTOR KONTROL S2 - the professional 2.1 DJ system = http://www.native-instruments.com/s2 - NATIVE INSTRUMENTS - The Future of Sound - Registergericht: Amtsgericht Charlottenburg Registernummer: HRB 72458 UST.-ID.-Nr. DE 20 374 7747 Geschäftsführung: Daniel Haver (CEO), Mate Galic ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Sat, Sep 1, 2012 at 6:24 PM, Alexandre Prokoudine alexandre.prokoud...@gmail.com wrote: Standalone JACK client would work pretty much everywhere (the 95% you mentioned), but workflow-wise a native VST would (arguably) be preferable. As long as multiple instances can be run, a standalone Jack version would be fine. -- Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.brettwmccoy.com In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world. -- Jelaleddin Rumi ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
Am Sat, 1 Sep 2012 23:44:38 +0200 schrieb Florian Schirmer florian.schir...@native-instruments.de: Hi Harry, i'm curious, what exactly would be the linux version of Kontakt? Kontakt VST for Linux? Standalone? DSSI? LV2? What is necessary to cover 95% of the users? Thanks, Florian Like others said before: DSSI is legacy and Linux VST is not a beloved child because of the legal issues that might arise even with the now free GPL headers. Pianoteq did it Jack Standalone which is fine. But I think LV2 is even better, not because out of convenience, since we have good inter-application session management now, but because it fits more usecases, therefore getting closer to the 95% mark: A simple LV2 standalone host, which exist, 'converts' any LV2 plugin into a JACK Standlone program without any additional latency, problems etc. But the reverse is not true afaik. You can't run Pianoteq as plugin in Ardour or Qtractor because it is not one and end of the story. But don't listen to me. The people who develop JACK standalone and LV2 plugins are fare more capable to give a real and technical answer, not something from a simple user perspective. Nils ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
Thanks for taking the initiative on this. The lack of high quality samples usable on a Linux system has been quite a problem. John ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 5:12 AM, John Rigg la...@jrigg.co.uk wrote: Thanks for taking the initiative on this. The lack of high quality samples usable on a Linux system has been quite a problem. this is subtle, but i'd like to point out that the problem is actually slightly more specific than that. from my perspective, it is really the lack of high quality samples usable outside of the sample playback engine with which they were originally associated. if you don't have kontakt, you can't play kontakt sample libraries regardless of the platform you're on. but yay for anyone working to change this situation. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 07:58:07 -0400 Paul Davis p...@linuxaudiosystems.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 5:12 AM, John Rigg la...@jrigg.co.uk wrote: Thanks for taking the initiative on this. The lack of high quality samples usable on a Linux system has been quite a problem. this is subtle, but i'd like to point out that the problem is actually slightly more specific than that. from my perspective, it is really the lack of high quality samples usable outside of the sample playback engine with which they were originally associated. if you don't have kontakt, you can't play kontakt sample libraries regardless of the platform you're on. but yay for anyone working to change this situation. The direct and naive solution would be a reversed engineered kontakt sample engine, yes. Very naive. Nils ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Nils l...@nilsgey.de wrote: The direct and naive solution would be a reversed engineered kontakt sample engine, yes. Very naive. The community could approach NI and ask if they're intrested in supporting a Linux version of Kontact? I volunteer to write the email, and if they laugh then what harm done... Opinions? ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Harry van Haaren harryhaa...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Nils l...@nilsgey.de wrote: The direct and naive solution would be a reversed engineered kontakt sample engine, yes. Very naive. The community could approach NI and ask if they're intrested in supporting a Linux version of Kontact? I volunteer to write the email, and if they laugh then what harm done... I am sure it has been done before... I'd be first in line up to sign up if they did do it (assuming my current Kontakt license would transfer). -- Brett W. McCoy -- http://www.brettwmccoy.com In the rhythm of music a secret is hidden; If I were to divulge it, it would overturn the world. -- Jelaleddin Rumi ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
Hello Harry! Yes, I am pretty sure, that it had been done before. But I can't remember when exactly. I suppose it's always wrth a trial. You will never know, if you don't say a word. Perhaps we could get together sort of a friendly petition or at laest a list of interested parties and attach it to the mail,so they can have an idea of how many people - for a start - would be interested in this. Just as an extra factual argument. I am almost sure, that if they agree to a reverse engineered module or additional coding help from our community some people would pipe up. I'm ashamed to say, I won't be amongst them and thus shouldn't really have said it. Though I'm still pretty sure about it. Warm regards Julien http://juliencoder.de/nama/music.html ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 14:43:13 +0100 Harry van Haaren harryhaa...@gmail.com wrote: The community could approach NI and ask if they're intrested in supporting a Linux version of Kontact? I volunteer to write the email, and if they laugh then what harm done... The community could also ask them to make sure that it works well with wineasio that more or less turns it into a jack application. Many of their other apps runs perfectly, but kontakt is somewhat of a dog. But the big problem imo is content. LS is already a kick ass sampler, but there is simply not all that much content around for it. --- Joakim ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 14:43:13 +0100 Harry van Haaren harryhaa...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Nils l...@nilsgey.de wrote: The direct and naive solution would be a reversed engineered kontakt sample engine, yes. Very naive. The community could approach NI and ask if they're intrested in supporting a Linux version of Kontact? I volunteer to write the email, and if they laugh then what harm done... Opinions? Regardless if it was done or in the past or not It would be very nice of you to write an email to them. Nils ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On 08/31/2012 04:56 PM, Nils wrote: On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 14:43:13 +0100 Harry van Haarenharryhaa...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Nilsl...@nilsgey.de wrote: The direct and naive solution would be a reversed engineered kontakt sample engine, yes. Very naive. The community could approach NI and ask if they're intrested in supporting a Linux version of Kontact? I volunteer to write the email, and if they laugh then what harm done... Opinions? Regardless if it was done or in the past or not It would be very nice of you to write an email to them. Maybe an email from linuxaudio.org works better? Someone who speaks in name of an organization? \r ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 10:59 AM, rosea.grammostola rosea.grammost...@gmail.com wrote: On 08/31/2012 04:56 PM, Nils wrote: On Fri, 31 Aug 2012 14:43:13 +0100 Harry van Haarenharryhaa...@gmail.com wrote: On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Nilsl...@nilsgey.de wrote: The direct and naive solution would be a reversed engineered kontakt sample engine, yes. Very naive. The community could approach NI and ask if they're intrested in supporting a Linux version of Kontact? I volunteer to write the email, and if they laugh then what harm done... Opinions? Regardless if it was done or in the past or not It would be very nice of you to write an email to them. Maybe an email from linuxaudio.org works better? Someone who speaks in name of an organization? NI already have inhouse versions of many of their software tools for Linux, and they use it in house for some development. I met with them in person several years ago when I was teaching in Berlin. They are quite big technical fans of JACK and of Linux, but they (probably correctly) see a tiny, largely irrelevant market for native releases for these platforms. They spent quite a bit of effort to get their standalone versions on OS X to talk to JACK if it is installed, but chose not to document this because hardly anyone wants it and when they do, they figure it out for themselves. A lot of people (even on this list) don't understand the extent to which *supporting* a piece of software is often a far bigger cost than the initial development, and providing support for a platform with very few users is an issue for companies who want their customer service reputation to be very good (as NI does). It doesn't work for companies like this to just release something into the wild and forget about it. --p ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 7:27 PM, Paul Davis wrote: NI already have inhouse versions of many of their software tools for Linux, and they use it in house for some development. I met with them in person several years ago when I was teaching in Berlin. They are quite big technical fans of JACK and of Linux, but they (probably correctly) see a tiny, largely irrelevant market for native releases for these platforms. Interesting, because Pianoteq folks like JACK too (and started from Linux version that was using JACK, AFAIK), but somehow they do manage to maintain the Linux version. Probably at the cost of liking JACK? Alexandre Prokoudine http://libregraphicsworld.org ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Paul Davis p...@linuxaudiosystems.comwrote: A lot of people (even on this list) don't understand the extent to which *supporting* a piece of software is often a far bigger cost than the initial development, and providing support for a platform with very few users is an issue for companies who want their customer service reputation to be very good (as NI does). It doesn't work for companies like this to just release something into the wild and forget about it. That's a fair point. And also one I'm not in a place to make : I'm not currently doing any software support. Still I do feel that if there could be an interaction whereby the linux audio community gets enough info to use Kontact samples natively in JACK that would be awesome. With risk of talking about what I'm not an expert in: I could see some kind of binary .so distributed by NI that houses the Kontact internals, with a header file describing how to use it. If this could be adapted into the shape of a LinuxSampler engine, then win-win right? -NI don't have to do support: the only customer for thier .so is a developer, so support isn't even the right word. -LinuxSampler is an established project: why repeat all that has already been done? -Kontact usage goes up (strengthens brand name.. etc etc) and I'll buy samples from NI. Again intrested on views... also from the Linux sampler guys if such an endeavor would even be possible given that the politics work out. -Harry ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
Re: [LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24)
On Sat, September 1, 2012 3:12 am, Harry van Haaren wrote: On Fri, Aug 31, 2012 at 4:27 PM, Paul Davis p...@linuxaudiosystems.comwrote: A lot of people (even on this list) don't understand the extent to which *supporting* a piece of software is often a far bigger cost than the initial development, and providing support for a platform with very few users is an issue for companies who want their customer service reputation to be very good (as NI does). It doesn't work for companies like this to just release something into the wild and forget about it. That's a fair point. And also one I'm not in a place to make : I'm not currently doing any software support. Still I do feel that if there could be an interaction whereby the linux audio community gets enough info to use Kontact samples natively in JACK that would be awesome. With risk of talking about what I'm not an expert in: I could see some kind of binary .so distributed by NI that houses the Kontact internals, with a header file describing how to use it. If this could be adapted into the shape of a LinuxSampler engine, then win-win right? -NI don't have to do support: the only customer for thier .so is a developer, so support isn't even the right word. -LinuxSampler is an established project: why repeat all that has already been done? -Kontact usage goes up (strengthens brand name.. etc etc) and I'll buy samples from NI. Again intrested on views... also from the Linux sampler guys if such an endeavor would even be possible given that the politics work out. -Harry I think Paul has already framed this. They are not comfortable putting it out in the wild unless they are sure that their quality standards will be met. In that case they will need to have a support agreement with the LS guys and that means Christian et al will have to work, which means unless they can get NI to pay them for their time they either have to work for free or make enough money from the associated projects that gain by having NI support. Given that almost no one in this mailing list actually spends significant amounts of money on Linux Audio Software that means they have to get income from a much larger userbase and until we have definitive proof that userbase is going to contribute income to the project the only thing driving it forward is self motivation. So, if we want projects like this to succeed we as a community have to be prepared to make the effort to educate the wider market. Which means everyone contributing to the global marketing effort... So, get our your blogs, your tweet decks, your facebooks, your pinterests, your myspace and your diggs, start writing keyword rich content and linking it back to our community landing pages, flood the forums with links, and even gasp *pay* real money for advertising in real physical media like magazines and trade journals and then let's see how big our global userbase really is. As it stands there is a push towards NAMM in January 2013 but compared to the rest of the noise out there it will be easily lost in the crowd if we don't put in the time to capitalise on it. Those people who are in the States and have some spare time and resources might want to consider getting involved in a grassroots education campaign for the NAMM conference. There are several companies that are going to be there this year so having a side event or even pooling resources to make a theme might raise some eyebrows in a good way. One thing we have going for us is that the products we make are definitely high end so that is a good place to start if we want to create a marketing theme and educational campaign based around it. -- Patrick Shirkey Boost Hardware Ltd ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
[LAD] Kontakt sampler format (and others like EXS24) - Once again free samples, this time more uplifting
Hello lists, (if you are note exited by freeing sampled instruments but only by the technical aspect skip to the line But back to the topic:) I am doing a research and mail marathon right now. Again I am searching for more or less open source and free samples but this time I decided to browse more free things website archives. So far I found a handful of, more or less useful and nice, instruments or noise packs with a good license. Even better is that I try to contact as many instrument developers as possible per mail, asking them to release their already free-of-cost instrument under a more open license. Or if the license may be open alreaday but is unclear (sample licenses can be quite confusing if you press them into the Creative Commons frame) I asked for clarification. Surprisingly already several people answered which resulted in the freedom of some packs and, best of all, the producer with one of the closest and permissive statements (but otherwise very good) of all contacted me very quickly and said they want their free instruments as open as possible and the closed licenses were a misunderstanding, only for their fully commercial instruments. I'll release a list with download links on my blog nilsgey.de in the near future. If the linux audio community has enough webspace we could even mirror most of them. Part of my mails is always the permission to redistribute and mirror download. You don't believe how many say do what you want with these samples, but you are only allowed to download them exactly here. If tommorow this website will be gone there is no legal way to get the samples anymore But back to the topic: Sadly many of those instruments are in .nki or .nk* format which is the Kontakt Player or Kontakt Something Fullversion format. The wave samples are (often? by design?) there as plain files, but it is hard work to guess how they should be arranged and what is needed. As far as I know the kontakt format has more features, such as scripting, than sfz, which is currently the Linux sample flagship. I hope I am wrong here. I know there are sample converter programs (for Windows) like Chicken Translator or the W. Grabowski Extreme Sample Converter. I have used them and even simple conversions like sf2 to gig, or gig to sfz were always a bit odd or plain wrong. They have menu entries for Kontakt and EXS24 (the Apple Logic Sampler format, you see that quite often as well) but I don't believe that will actually produce accurate conversions. Is there someone who knows more about these formats? Even if it is not possible to write a sampler engine (it would not be the first [partly]binary, closed format loaded by open source software) maybe there is at least a way to get all the needed information to convert/correct them by hand or individual scripts. For the more pragmatical, non-100%-idealist people, that would be a major step in general Linux Audio mainstream direction. For the last years and currently many instruments are samples which seem to be interpreted data (I hope I am not wrong here). This is not the windows-VST problem but actually solvable without recompiling and re-releasing even the major commercial instruments. so far... Nils P.S. I got some packs which are just wave files or the nki files seem to trigger just one-shot samples. I thought about creating .sfz files for them. Any help would be welcome. I already have a github repository up with two projects (WIP), so contact me here per mail or IRC #lad if you are interested. ___ Linux-audio-dev mailing list Linux-audio-dev@lists.linuxaudio.org http://lists.linuxaudio.org/listinfo/linux-audio-dev
