Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is ...
PS: silent supporters are lurking behind the curtains, silent, but supportive Indeed. -- j. Jay Vaughan [EMAIL PROTECTED] music:technology:synthesizers - www.access-music.de/
Re: [Alsa-devel] Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is no-one responding are you all just a bunch of *^%^%^ wits???
On Thursday 13 February 2003 04:44, Takashi Iwai wrote: Paul Davis wrote: when ardour is in a state where i believe (rightly or wrongly) that a reasonably typical target user can sit down and just use it without encountering bugs when recording a typical 12-32 track piece, there will be binaries. don't forget that the binary distribution may cause different kind of problems, too. I have some experience with distributing binaries of a large package. I have maintained the PostgreSQL RPM's for over three years. While I continue to do it, there are definitely pitfalls. They are avoidable, however. You try to make the source RPM rebuild easily on the target distributions, and only distribute binaries for which distributions you have. If they build it from source RPM (which has advantages over the traditional configure/make/make install) then it's their baby. The advantages of RPM's are mostly apparent when you upgrade or uninstall. See the Cinelerra RPM for an example of the wild things one can do with an RPM. With a tool such as apt-get, and an apt repository of RPM's, installation of even the most complicated set of package dependencies can be a breeze. Reference Planet CCRMA. Download apt-rpm, make some config changes, apt-get update, and then apt-get install packages of your choice. Dependencies are automatically calculated, packages downloaded, and everything installed in the right order. There are significant advantages to this structure. -- Lamar Owen WGCR Internet Radio 1 Peter 4:11
Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is ...
I have the same problem as Dan .. AUD doesn't convert well to USD.. all the same it looks as if I will contribute something on my next paycheck On Thu, 2003-02-13 at 07:25, Paul Winkler wrote: On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 06:21:42PM +0100, Vincent Touquet wrote: and the rest ... I get this. Its pathetic. Not only that ... I have no idea how much longer I can keep working on Ardour right now because working on it has come close to exhausting my financial resources. Paul, could you tell me how I can support you financially ? Do you work through Paypal ? I don't know why Paul doesn't publicize this more widely, but this page has been up for some time now: http://ardour.sourceforge.net/money.html Notice the Paypal link. -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com Look! Up in the sky! It's SALESMAN THIGH! (random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
Re: [Alsa-devel] Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is no-one responding are you all just a bunch of *^%^%^ wits???
At Wed, 12 Feb 2003 11:49:08 -0500, Paul Davis wrote: when ardour is in a state where i believe (rightly or wrongly) that a reasonably typical target user can sit down and just use it without encountering bugs when recording a typical 12-32 track piece, there will be binaries. don't forget that the binary distribution may cause different kind of problems, too. the binary might not run on different distributions, or even on a different machine with a same distribution, unless you give all-static-linked binary. (note that even a binary like netscape 4.x cannot run properly now with the new glibc because of java.) and you would likely ignore a bug-report for such, because the only answer is it works for me :) Takashi (in a pessmistic atmosphere)
Re: [Alsa-devel] Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is no-one responding are you all just a bunch of *^%^%^ wits???
don't forget that the binary distribution may cause different kind of problems, too. the binary might not run on different distributions, or even on a different machine with a same distribution, unless you give all-static-linked binary. (note that even a binary like netscape 4.x cannot run properly now with the new glibc because of java.) a 100% statically linked binary will be available, but not recommended.
Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is ...
and the rest ... I get this. Its pathetic. Not only that ... I have no idea how much longer I can keep working on Ardour right now because working on it has come close to exhausting my financial resources. Paul, could you tell me how I can support you financially ? Do you work through Paypal ? best regards, Vincent PS: silent supporters are lurking behind the curtains, silent, but supportive
RE: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is no-one responding are you all just a bunch of *^%^%^ wits???
when ardour is in a state where i believe (rightly or wrongly) that a reasonably typical target user can sit down and just use it without encountering bugs when recording a typical 12-32 track piece, there will be binaries. --p Do I/we have at least your permission (if we do manage to compile out of CVS) to redistribute my/our compiled version? Ico
Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is no-one responding are you all just a bunch of *^%^%^ wits???
Do I/we have at least your permission (if we do manage to compile out of CVS) to redistribute my/our compiled version? i would prefer that nobody be using ardour at this time that doesn't have the skills to use CVS and the compilation toolset. there are frequently daily updates, and i'd much rather people use a low-bandwidth approach to updating (which is essentially what CVS provides for read-only users). i clearly can't enforce this, but that's how i see things. just do the right thing :) --p
Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is no-one responding are you all just a bunch of *^%^%^ wits???
On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 12:33:24PM -0500, Ivica Bukvic wrote: Do I/we have at least your permission (if we do manage to compile out of CVS) to redistribute my/our compiled version? I think this is covered by section 6 in the GPL: http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html 6. Each time you redistribute the Program (or any work based on the Program), the recipient automatically receives a license from the original licensor to copy, distribute or modify the Program subject to these terms and conditions. You may not impose any further restrictions on the recipients' exercise of the rights granted herein. You are not responsible for enforcing compliance by third parties to this License. So you can distribute your compiled version, if you don't hold back the sources of course (terms and conditions of the GPL). It just boils down to the fact that people who get hold of a binary will find an email address in the about box and complain for any bugs. Personally, I'd respect the wish of the author not to redistribute the binary, till he is confident about it and at the point at which it is _possible_ to support the binary (its sufficiently stable). Yet, we are a free world. The legals are clear, morality is up to ourselves. regards, v
Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is ...
On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 06:21:42PM +0100, Vincent Touquet wrote: and the rest ... I get this. Its pathetic. Not only that ... I have no idea how much longer I can keep working on Ardour right now because working on it has come close to exhausting my financial resources. Paul, could you tell me how I can support you financially ? Do you work through Paypal ? I don't know why Paul doesn't publicize this more widely, but this page has been up for some time now: http://ardour.sourceforge.net/money.html Notice the Paypal link. -- Paul Winkler http://www.slinkp.com Look! Up in the sky! It's SALESMAN THIGH! (random hero from isometric.spaceninja.com)
Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is no-one responding are you all just a bunch of *^%^%^ wits???
On Wed, Feb 12, 2003 at 11:49:08AM -0500, Paul Davis wrote: (cut) jazz++ has been around for a long time, and is available as a binary. why isn't it widely loved and used? because it really isn't very good. i know that i tried to use it many times, and found it, well, frankly i found it completely awful. That was sadly my impression too. (cut) when ardour is in a state where i believe (rightly or wrongly) that a reasonably typical target user can sit down and just use it without encountering bugs when recording a typical 12-32 track piece, there will be binaries. I think that is a good policy. Hm, I see these emails get cross-posted all over alsa-dev and ardour-dev too :/ The last thing I want to say is that I hope we can make a mends to this bad vibe mostly based on false expectations, yet good intentions. The last thing is what counts. regards, vincent
[linux-audio-dev] Re: why is no-one responding are you all just a bunch of *^%^%^ wits???
I have done everything I have asked of me from the list, including Paul's responses ..and also taken my own initiatives following lack of response and still have recieved no response. [ ... ] Aside from being upset, it appears to me that you guys are all a bunch of hypocrites.. Asking for further information, and clarification but never actually responding, while I do everything that I can possibly thing\k of in aiding you answer my questions.. yet continue to be ignored... It does not seem to be a coincidence that all response ended after my response to the string ahem. So I've wasted 2+ years of my life and countless dollars continuing down this path. Do you know how much of my life and money I've spent continuing down this path? In return for getting up every day for 3+ years (bar some months in the summer) and working my ass off to produce something people claimed would take hundreds of man years to create, finding 2-300 emails per day in my mail box about audio software, hardware, and the rest ... I get this. Its pathetic. Not only that ... I have no idea how much longer I can keep working on Ardour right now because working on it has come close to exhausting my financial resources. What right do you have to complain about countless dollars? You have been given access to the inside of the entire development process of a major piece of software: something you would never, ever have any access to with a commercial company. If you don't like the fact that nobody has time to answer your questions because we too **DAMN BUSY** trying to get software to the point where non-coders can use it with satisfaction and ease, well ... go get products support from companies that will happily take your money for both of them. There are plenty of good ones. Your insinuations about some agenda based on your feelings about Steinberg and/or your status as a coder (or not) are offensive. --p ps. the word is fuckwit. you don't need to add punctuation marks, which only make it more offensive.
Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is no-one responding are you all justa bunch of *^%^%^ wits???
On Wed, 2003-02-12 at 07:44, Paul Davis wrote: So I've wasted 2+ years of my life and countless dollars continuing down this path. Do you know how much of my life and money I've spent continuing down this path? In return for getting up every day for 3+ years (bar some months in the summer) and working my ass off to produce something people claimed would take hundreds of man years to create, finding 2-300 emails per day in my mail box about audio software, hardware, and the rest ... I get this. Its pathetic. Not only that ... I have no idea how much longer I can keep working on Ardour right now because working on it has come close to exhausting my financial resources. What right do you have to complain about countless dollars? If I may pipe in here.. Being a developer and a musician/engineer, I am aware of the resource drain invloved. With all due respect, Paul, If you are interested, I am sure people would pay for binaries of ardour.I would. I know other musicans that would.I could get more musicans to. Personally, I have been waiting for it since I first heard about it. Why not release something? People are waiting! Most open source projects release binaries throughout their development phase. Instead of adding cool new features for years on end, why not release something that musicans can use. That is what it's all about, right? Musicians want your software. Linux (community) needs your software. You have been given access to the inside of the entire development process of a major piece of software: something you would never, ever have any access to with a commercial company. If you don't like the fact that nobody has time to answer your questions because we too **DAMN BUSY** trying to get software to the point where non-coders can use it with satisfaction and ease, well ... go get products support from companies that will happily take your money for both of them. There are plenty of good ones. -- My cat's a debugger Potter, Lorn, ljp core developer / Web Administrator Project OPIE- the Open Palmtop Integrated Environment http://opie.handhelds.org | http://www.opie.info (german) | http://www.opie.us IRC: irc.freenode.net #opie #opie.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is no-one responding are you all just a bunch of *^%^%^ wits???
If you are interested, I am sure people would pay for binaries of ardour.I would. I know other musicans that would.I could get more musicans to. Personally, I have been waiting for it since I first heard about it. Why not release something? because i am tired of downloading open source projects that are still so clearly under development. i am tired of the impression that this creates. when i get hold of something like freqtweak, which i can compile or get binaries for, and the thing just works ... that is the right impression. the wrong impression comes from stupid bugs, inability to cleanly exit the program (still a core problem with ardour), and functionality that is obviously necessary and either missing or incomplete. People are waiting! Most open source projects release binaries throughout their development phase. Instead of adding cool new features for years on end, why not release something that musicans can use. that's precisely what i am trying to do. however, my definition of something that musicians can use might be different from yours. jazz++ has been around for a long time, and is available as a binary. why isn't it widely loved and used? because it really isn't very good. i know that i tried to use it many times, and found it, well, frankly i found it completely awful. ardour still has lots of significant bugs and a few design issues that need addressing before i want the general population judging it. to release ready-to-run copies now, or even tarballs that would help people who can't/won't use CVS to try to compile it ... well, all i think it would do is to increase the number of people who have been there, don't want to go back with respect to the program. when ardour is in a state where i believe (rightly or wrongly) that a reasonably typical target user can sit down and just use it without encountering bugs when recording a typical 12-32 track piece, there will be binaries. --p
Re: [Alsa-devel] Re: [linux-audio-dev] Re: why is no-one respondingare you all just a bunch of *^%^%^ wits???
On Wed, 2003-02-12 at 09:49, Paul Davis wrote: If you are interested, I am sure people would pay for binaries of ardour.I would. I know other musicans that would.I could get more musicans to. Personally, I have been waiting for it since I first heard about it. Why not release something? because i am tired of downloading open source projects that are still so clearly under development. i am tired of the impression that this creates. when i get hold of something like freqtweak, which i can compile or get binaries for, and the thing just works ... that is the right impression. the wrong impression comes from stupid bugs, inability to cleanly exit the program (still a core problem with ardour), and functionality that is obviously necessary and either missing or incomplete. ahhh, you are a perfectionist! I see your point. Open source software is always under dev, unless it's not maintained. You _could_ release 'alpha' versions clearly stating that it is alpha condition. People are waiting! Most open source projects release binaries throughout their development phase. Instead of adding cool new features for years on end, why not release something that musicans can use. that's precisely what i am trying to do. however, my definition of something that musicians can use might be different from yours. Well, obviously, ardour isn't at the 'release' stage, but perhaps beta or even alpha. Perhaps someone else with more time, could release a binary version for you. Pick one or two target dists, and release alpha binaries or such. You'd certainly get more bug reports. :) jazz++ has been around for a long time, and is available as a binary. why isn't it widely loved and used? because it really isn't very good. i know that i tried to use it many times, and found it, well, frankly i found it completely awful. ardour still has lots of significant bugs and a few design issues that need addressing before i want the general population judging it. to release ready-to-run copies now, or even tarballs that would help people who can't/won't use CVS to try to compile it ... well, all i think it would do is to increase the number of people who have been there, don't want to go back with respect to the program. Personally, I keep checking back to projects that are in some kind of beta stage, or too buggy to use and look interesting, to see what things have changed. Heck, I'll even use software day to day that crashes constantly, if I think it's useful enough. (mozilla - early stages comes to mind) when ardour is in a state where i believe (rightly or wrongly) that a reasonably typical target user can sit down and just use it without encountering bugs when recording a typical 12-32 track piece, there will be binaries. People are willing now to support you financially now, Paul.Paypal might be a good idea, if you dont mind begging till ardour is at a point where you can release to the general public. --p --- This SF.NET email is sponsored by: SourceForge Enterprise Edition + IBM + LinuxWorld = Something 2 See! http://www.vasoftware.com ___ Alsa-devel mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/alsa-devel -- My cat's a debugger Potter, Lorn, ljp core developer / Web Administrator Project OPIE- the Open Palmtop Integrated Environment http://opie.handhelds.org | http://www.opie.info (german) | http://www.opie.us IRC: irc.freenode.net #opie #opie.de [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
