Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
[This is not really a reply to the previous message - I just wanted to keep the thread id] Update on Actcom status, specifically the tech support issue. I had to call Actcom tech support yesterday, complaining that my DSL connection doesn't work, eventually I found out that the issue was a hardware problem on my side (my girlfriend rewired the router incorrectly, connecting the internet port to an unused cable), but I didn't found it until after I finished with the support person. After he couldn't get my router to work by having me trying different settings, the support guy asked me to connect my computer directly to the modem - at which point he found out that I use a Linux desktop. Except for a couple of ahmm..s, a query about my choice of distribution and a recommendation to use Ubuntu, the support guy didn't seem fazed by my use of Linux. After setting up my Fedora 7 to dial up to DSL (which was a simple wizard I needed no help with) everything worked, at which point point the support guy asked for some specific details to document the incident (operating system type and version, router model and modem model). I didn't get specific help for Linux, mostly as I didn't need any, but the tech support didn't seem to have an issue with me using Linux, and seemed versed on the subject - at all times he was professional and helpful - which I can't really say about most tech support calls I've done over the years, but it was exactly the type of service I was used to getting under Actcom. I think I recall the guy's name from when I called tech support before Actcom was bought - so he might be from the original Actcom tech support team (I didn't ask). To sum, the tech support still operates behind Actcom's toll free number (which AFAIK is the only toll free internet support line in Israel), and still seems clueful about Linux. I don't know about the commercial side (my current contract expires on August, after which I'll be able to comment on the issue), but from the support side I have no complaints, and if the sales department don't mess up my contract renewal I will remain a customer of Actcom/Bezeq Beinleumi. -- Oded = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
Quoting Oded Arbel [EMAIL PROTECTED]: To sum, the tech support still operates behind Actcom's toll free number (which AFAIK is the only toll free internet support line in Israel), and still seems clueful about Linux. I don't know about the commercial side (my current contract expires on August, after which I'll be able to comment on the issue), but from the support side I have no complaints, and if the sales department don't mess up my contract renewal I will remain a customer of Actcom/Bezeq Beinleumi. I got a message from Bezeq Intl. when I sent a message here at linux-il about this issue. In that message (which for some reason came from the Abuse team) they said that they have Linux support, although it may not be online. Herouth = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
Oded Arbel wrote: [This is not really a reply to the previous message - I just wanted to keep the thread id] Update on Actcom status, specifically the tech support issue. I had to call Actcom tech support yesterday, complaining that my DSL connection doesn't work, eventually I found out that the issue was a hardware problem on my side (my girlfriend rewired the router incorrectly, connecting the internet port to an unused cable), but I didn't found it until after I finished with the support person. After he couldn't get my router to work by having me trying different settings, the support guy asked me to connect my computer directly to the modem - at which point he found out that I use a Linux desktop. Except for a couple of ahmm..s, a query about my choice of distribution and a recommendation to use Ubuntu, the support guy didn't seem fazed by my use of Linux. After setting up my Fedora 7 to dial up to DSL (which was a simple wizard I needed no help with) everything worked, at which point point the support guy asked for some specific details to document the incident (operating system type and version, router model and modem model). I didn't get specific help for Linux, mostly as I didn't need any, but the tech support didn't seem to have an issue with me using Linux, and seemed versed on the subject - at all times he was professional and helpful - which I can't really say about most tech support calls I've done over the years, but it was exactly the type of service I was used to getting under Actcom. I think I recall the guy's name from when I called tech support before Actcom was bought - so he might be from the original Actcom tech support team (I didn't ask). It could not be the original support, cause its gone. Most of services moved to PT, and support team ( as well as sales, custserv etc ... ) are no longer there ( Haifa ), except one guy at night which does not get phone calls from customers, but from Bezeqint's supporters who needs help with Actcom users and interfaces. They present themselves as Actcom, probably not to confuse customers, but some of them even cant pronounce the name correctly ( actom, actcome .. ). Anyway, its nice to hear that there are supporters at Bezeqint that will not fall from the chair when they will hear the /word/ Linux. 10x, Danny To sum, the tech support still operates behind Actcom's toll free number (which AFAIK is the only toll free internet support line in Israel), and still seems clueful about Linux. I don't know about the commercial side (my current contract expires on August, after which I'll be able to comment on the issue), but from the support side I have no complaints, and if the sales department don't mess up my contract renewal I will remain a customer of Actcom/Bezeq Beinleumi.
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
In the US, I worked for a local computer store - it basically had all the Jewish Community's business - Anyway, one room of the store was an ISP - It was 2 racks - one for servers, the other for network. Server rack had COTS desktops running BSD (I think) - 2 * (mail, DNS, RADIUS,News) servers It was dial-up internet, so he had (I guess) a leased line from a telephone bank off-site. My point is that the whole operation was one room - those 2 racks and 3 desks covering phone support and sys admins. ISP'ing, at least in the US *can* be done on a smallish scale - on the order of a few hundred customers. On 7/9/07, Amos Shapira [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 09/07/07, Geoffrey S. Mendelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 08:01:50PM +0300, David Smith wrote: If I understand correctly, in order to set up an small ISP, the following infrastructure would be needed: A connection to at least one bigger ISP, and preferably also to IIX. A server to handle DNS/mail/accounting etc and possibly routing Optional: a dedicated hardware router An 'ISP' connection to Bezeq and Hot. You forgot an ISP license from whatever ministry issues them. This requires a lot of money. The cheapest way to do it is to buy an existing licensed ISP. That's how BEZEQ BENLUMI did it, they bought ISDNNET which got their license by buying a previous ISP. I know Orange was refused a license, I don't know how they eventually got one. I didn't quite follow the entire discussion from top to bottom, but is there an option to become a reseller? That way you get the basic infrastructure from an approved ISP but create your own brand and support lines. Not sure it makes sense, especially in the Israeli context, but apparently it's common in other parts of the world. --Amos
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 09:34:17AM +0300, Mike Tewner wrote: ISP'ing, at least in the US *can* be done on a smallish scale - on the order of a few hundred customers. But not in Israel. Things are much different here. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
On Mon, Jul 09, 2007, Mike Tewner wrote about Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs: My point is that the whole operation was one room - those 2 racks and 3 desks covering phone support and sys admins. ISP'ing, at least in the US *can* be done on a smallish scale - on the order of a few hundred customers. Things were simpler in the age of modems. Want to run an ISP for 3 people? Just get 3 phone lines and 3 modems, a connection to a bigger ISP, and you're done. But today, nobody would want to call your ISP using a modem - they would want to use ADSL and/or cable to connect to you. This brings up two serious problem: First, because of how this technology works Bezek/HOT need to recognize you. I have a hunch that they wouldn't, unless you can bring big business and show a license from the goverment - not something you can do for 10 friends. Your second problem is that much of the service no longer depends on you - in the old days, everybody had a phone and nobody would blame their ISP if their phone stopped working (and besides, it wouldn't happen) or their phone socket was improperly installed. But today, you need to deal with ADSL/Cable hardware, routers, dialers, MTU and a whole lot of issues that are actually imposed, caused and dealt with, by HOT or Bezek - not by the ISP. From my dealings with my ISP, using HOT's cable, I understand that they have very close (although not quite perfect, to say the least) connections to HOT and need to transfer configuration files, and need their help to debug some of the connection problems. In fact, when I have a problem, I usually call HOT directly, not my ISP! What would it have helped me if my ISP was full of Linux experts, if I end up calling HOT anyway? This situation is a far-cry from the situation in the modem days, where your ISP could rely on your phone just working, and didn't need to cooperate with Bezek about configuring your phone. -- Nadav Har'El| Monday, Jul 9 2007, 23 Tammuz 5767 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln256%Pln256/snlbx] http://nadav.harel.org.il |sb3135071790101768542287578439snlbxq'|dc = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 10:36:02AM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote: From my dealings with my ISP, using HOT's cable, I understand that they have very close (although not quite perfect, to say the least) connections to HOT and need to transfer configuration files, and need their help to debug some of the connection problems. In fact, when I have a problem, I usually call HOT directly, not my ISP! What would it have helped me if my ISP was full of Linux experts, if I end up calling HOT anyway? This situation is a far-cry from the situation in the modem days, where your ISP could rely on your phone just working, and didn't need to cooperate with Bezek about configuring your phone. A big difference is that HOT has a different hardware set up. HOT modems use a system similar to token ring, and have full diagnostic capabilities. The one time I actually had a problem with my cable modem I called for support (I have a business class connection) and the support rep was able to connect to my modem and found it was in standby mode. I had meant to reset it and found out that the front panel button put it in standby, but did not reset it. BEZEQ does not have that level of support. While expect the PAD's (packet assembler/dissambler's) that they sell as modems have that capability, the average customer support rep is trained to use the diagnostic capability built into Windows (whatever that is). Bear in mind that as far a BEZEQ is concerned, you are using ATM over a switched network. If the ATM packets get from point A (your PAD) to point B (your ISP), their work is done. ATM does not support error checking or recovery, it was designed for voice, where latency is far more important than quality and consistency. As far as buying a connection and reselling it, BEZEQ will sell you high speed serial connection that is the agregate of all the ATM packets for your customers. It's normally used for companies that have large numbers of home connections, but don't want to deal with an ISP. As for remarketing Internet access, from what I understand that any sale of Internet access requires an ISP license. Places that provide free Wifi access don't seem to need a license, but due to Israeli regulations, they are very short range. Since EIRP is limited to 100mw, gain antennas, etc are illegal. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote: On Mon, Jul 09, 2007 at 09:34:17AM +0300, Mike Tewner wrote: ISP'ing, at least in the US *can* be done on a smallish scale - on the order of a few hundred customers. But not in Israel. Things are much different here. Geoff. It's done in Israel also: shameless plug We at the Arava Development Co. offer internet access, mail with spam and virus filtering, personal home pages (and we also maintain the arava website) for about 450 subscribers. While we don't have any official support people for Linux users we are quite sympathetic to using and distributing FOSS, and we'll do whatever we can to help users get connected with free OS's. (Some of our subscribers use various Linux distros). Our servers run CentOS, and much of the network management software I use is FOSS. We'll welcome any disenchanted ex-Actcom customers to join us. /shameless plug I'd be willing to approach our upstream Internet access provider about promising support for Linux users if the demand should arise, including the suggestion for community based support as mentioned earlier in this thread. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 03:34:02PM +0300, David Smith wrote: (...) perhaps now is a time to consider an alternative possibility - a community ISP. I like the idea; I wouldn't actively participate myself because I don't live in Israel, but if it is n00b-friendly enough, I'd push my family to it :-) One business model would be to function as a cooperative (...). The open source development concepts could also be implemented (...) Does anybody know of an existing project elsewhere of a similar nature ? I've had a chat or two with some people from French Data Networks (http://www.fdn.fr/). They started such activities back when it was easy (Internet access meant dial-up) and then recently stepped up to ADSL. They have said multiple times they'd be happy to help a similar organisation get started, but the areas where they can help are not the hardest ones. Roughly, if you need someone to teach you BGP, they'll do it. But they can't negotiate a contract with Bezeq for access to the last mile copper loop for you. - they are not a cooperative, but a no-profit association. - size: barely more than 100 members - they are *significantly* more expensive than cheapest commercial ADSL - roughly, they managed to get an acceptable contract for ADSL-ATM *only* because a prominent member works for their upstream ADSL-ATM provider. Not because he pulled any favours, but because he knew which salesperson to bug to get things going, things like that. - main cost: ADSL-ATM. It costs more than IP transit to the other end of the world. I know (personally or through fame) people who have tried to do something similar in the Netherlands: - either they started a long time ago (back when easy because dialup), went commercial, became huge because/or were bought out by a big telco company. (The story of XS4ALL is a nice one there... Started as a hacker's club that understood they would get kicked out from every ISP if they were not their own ISP, grew to commercial provider, got bought out by incumbent telco but under an agreement that guarantees their independence (the *first* thing they did as newly acquired daughter company is sue their parent to refuse to send them customer marketing data!). Somewhere along the way they became the *biggest* ISP in the Netherlands.) - or the best offers they got had clauses like must connect 200 new phone subscribers every year, or big financial penalties. So totally unacceptable, and never started. You hav David = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
Here is a suggestion for us all: Since the only ISP with serious Linux support has now been chewed up by a larger fish, perhaps now is a time to consider an alternative possibility - a community ISP. One business model would be to function as a cooperative - the shareholders are all employees or customers or both. The open source development concepts could also be implemented - if you want a new feature, find a few other employees/customers who want it, develop it yourselves, receive it for no additional cost (and perhaps charge customers who did contribute to its development for using it). Can anybody estimate how big such an entity would need to be in order to be viable? Does anybody know of an existing project elsewhere of a similar nature ? David = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
Hi, Starting an ISP costs quite a lot. You'll need to purchase servers, lots and lots of bandwidth, hire support staff, sales, administrative etc. Although servers are 1 time payment, the other stuff costs a lot, monthly, specially for the bandwidth here in Israel. Thanks, Hetz On 7/8/07, David Smith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Here is a suggestion for us all: Since the only ISP with serious Linux support has now been chewed up by a larger fish, perhaps now is a time to consider an alternative possibility - a community ISP. One business model would be to function as a cooperative - the shareholders are all employees or customers or both. The open source development concepts could also be implemented - if you want a new feature, find a few other employees/customers who want it, develop it yourselves, receive it for no additional cost (and perhaps charge customers who did contribute to its development for using it). Can anybody estimate how big such an entity would need to be in order to be viable? Does anybody know of an existing project elsewhere of a similar nature ? David = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Skepticism is the lazy person's default position. Visit my blog (hebrew) for things that (sometimes) matter: http://wp.dad-answers.com = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
On Sun, Jul 08, 2007, David Smith wrote about Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs: Since the only ISP with serious Linux support has now been chewed up by a larger fish, perhaps now is a time to consider an alternative possibility - a community ISP. One business model would be to function as a cooperative - the shareholders are all employees or customers or both. The open source ... Can anybody estimate how big such an entity would need to be in order to be viable? If by ISP you mean something like the big ISPs in Israel (Netvision, 012, etc.), with hundreds of thousands of clients and hundreds of employees, then you'll need major investments and a lot management overhead, so this will be very hard (but not impossible) to pull off. Instead of thinking big, why not think small? If what bothers you is the home connection side of the ISP business, then how about getting a few neighbors together, buying one connection, and splitting it together (doing the technical work yourself, without favors from the ISP)? If what bothers you is the hosting side of the ISP business, why don't you get together with several other people, buy one machine (or several machines) and host it in an existing ISP, and manage the machine together (again, without needing help from the ISP)? -- Nadav Har'El| Sunday, Jul 8 2007, 22 Tammuz 5767 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Always borrow money from pessimists. They http://nadav.harel.org.il |don't expect to be paid back. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
I guess that what bothers is the Linux support from the ISP. It would be easier to take the guides we have today, update them and redistribute it. Or a better way, to establish a group of people that will get paid for supporting people for connecting their computers to any ISP with Linux. -- Ori Idan On 7/8/07, Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Jul 08, 2007, David Smith wrote about Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs: Since the only ISP with serious Linux support has now been chewed up by a larger fish, perhaps now is a time to consider an alternative possibility - a community ISP. One business model would be to function as a cooperative - the shareholders are all employees or customers or both. The open source ... Can anybody estimate how big such an entity would need to be in order to be viable? If by ISP you mean something like the big ISPs in Israel (Netvision, 012, etc.), with hundreds of thousands of clients and hundreds of employees, then you'll need major investments and a lot management overhead, so this will be very hard (but not impossible) to pull off. Instead of thinking big, why not think small? If what bothers you is the home connection side of the ISP business, then how about getting a few neighbors together, buying one connection, and splitting it together (doing the technical work yourself, without favors from the ISP)? If what bothers you is the hosting side of the ISP business, why don't you get together with several other people, buy one machine (or several machines) and host it in an existing ISP, and manage the machine together (again, without needing help from the ISP)? -- Nadav Har'El| Sunday, Jul 8 2007, 22 Tammuz 5767 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Always borrow money from pessimists. They http://nadav.harel.org.il |don't expect to be paid back. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
On Sun, Jul 08, 2007, Ori Idan wrote about Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs: Or a better way, to establish a group of people that will get paid for supporting people for connecting their computers to any ISP with Linux. This idea might just work. With a bit of asterisk wizardry, you can run such a support business from your bedroom, or operated by students on their free time. Reminds me of Thomas Friedman's story in The World is Flat, about JetBlue. Apparently, JetBlue's whole reservation-by-phone system is run by housewives and retirees from Salt Lake City, which answer the phones at their own home. My dream is somewhat differet. My dream is that there would be a Linux- friendly computer shop, where I could come in, and every computer would come (if you want) pre-installed with Linux and they would only sell equipment that works with Linux (or your money back guaranteed). The same shop could also sell you ISP deals, and the shop will set up the needed DHCP/PPPoE/whatever software for you. But as they say, Martin Luther King said I have a dream, not I have a plan. -- Nadav Har'El| Sunday, Jul 8 2007, 22 Tammuz 5767 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |90% of the politicians give the other = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
Given that the main function of Actcom during the last few years was to buy bandwidth from Bezeq Beinleumi and resell it to its customers, adding improved support to the package - Ori's suggestion makes the most sense. The following could be done to implement the idea: 1. Collaborate with one (or more) of the ISPs to develop an offer of better quality support in exchange for surcharge. 2. Recruit Actcom's former employees to provide the extra support - number of supporters and coverage to depend upon demand for the better quality support. The support group should be reachable by regular phone, Skype, E-mail, Web form, SMS, and FAX - and provide 24/7 coverage. The support group should be empowered to work with HOT and Bezeq as necessary to resolve problems on their part of the network. Some way needs to be worked out to provide first-level support (for clueless people, who nevertheless paid the surcharge, and who call support to find that they forgot to flip the ON/OFF switch). ISPs and Bezeq usually require the user to tell them the MS-Windows error messages - the support group should amass the know-how to determine the MS-Windows error messages corresponding to the information in logfiles built in Linux, Mac OSX, etc. --- Omer On Sun, 2007-07-08 at 16:47 +0300, Ori Idan wrote: I guess that what bothers is the Linux support from the ISP. It would be easier to take the guides we have today, update them and redistribute it. Or a better way, to establish a group of people that will get paid for supporting people for connecting their computers to any ISP with Linux. -- Ori Idan On 7/8/07, Nadav Har'El [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Jul 08, 2007, David Smith wrote about Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs: Since the only ISP with serious Linux support has now been chewed up by a larger fish, perhaps now is a time to consider an alternative possibility - a community ISP. -- In civilized societies, captions are as important in movies as soundtracks, professional photography and expert editing. My own blog is at http://tddpirate.livejournal.com/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 04:47:06PM +0300, Ori Idan wrote: Or a better way, to establish a group of people that will get paid for supporting people for connecting their computers to any ISP with Linux. This to me makes no sense at all. For less than the cost of round trip bus fare per month, BEZEQ will install a router and support it for you. How low a price can you charge to make it worthwhile? Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 05:18:55PM +0300, Nadav Har'El wrote: This idea might just work. With a bit of asterisk wizardry, you can run such a support business from your bedroom, or operated by students on their free time. Reminds me of Thomas Friedman's story in The World is Flat, about JetBlue. Apparently, JetBlue's whole reservation-by-phone system is run by housewives and retirees from Salt Lake City, which answer the phones at their own home. It's not a new idea, I know someone who was a telephone psychic in the mid 1990's who did the same thing. I'm not even sure there is much difference between the two jobs. My dream is somewhat differet. My dream is that there would be a Linux- friendly computer shop, where I could come in, and every computer would come (if you want) pre-installed with Linux and they would only sell equipment that works with Linux (or your money back guaranteed). The same shop could also sell you ISP deals, and the shop will set up the needed DHCP/PPPoE/whatever software for you. I'm sorry but that would IMHO never work. A Linux/FOSS department in a larger store could as it would add another item to one stop shopping. People simply are not going to come to you for their Linux systems if they ALSO need to buy Windows systems from someone else. Honestly, how many people on this list are able to say that they and all of their immediate family members and all of the people who work for the same (company/organization) NEVER use Windows. Geoff. -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
Quoting Ori Idan [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I guess that what bothers is the Linux support from the ISP. It would be easier to take the guides we have today, update them and redistribute it. Or a better way, to establish a group of people that will get paid for supporting people for connecting their computers to any ISP with Linux. That's no solution, as it cannot replace a person who sits at the ISP and can actually see whether packets arrive from the computer, whether there is a DHCP lease for a particular address, whether user is logged on or not. Herouth = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
On Sun, Jul 08, 2007, Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote about Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs: My dream is somewhat differet. My dream is that there would be a Linux- friendly computer shop, where I could come in, and every computer would come (if you want) pre-installed with Linux and they would only sell equipment that works with Linux (or your money back guaranteed). The same shop could also sell you ISP deals, and the shop will set up the needed DHCP/PPPoE/whatever software for you. ... People simply are not going to come to you for their Linux systems if they ALSO need to buy Windows systems from someone else. Honestly, how many people on this list are able to say that they and all of their immediate family members and all of the people who work for the same (company/organization) NEVER use Windows. I didn't say that this would have to be a Linux-only shop, but rather that it would be a shop that concentrated on hardware that worked properly on Linux (but obviously also works on Windows). How many times have you walked into a computer store, looking to buy a mouse, printer, scanner, modem, soundcard, or camera, and asked the store owner will this work on Linux and got a reply I have no idea or even just no (this is known as CYA [1])? It happened to me, with all the above equipment. And I'm sick of it. It's even worse when you buy an entirely new computer, and need to start worrying whether each of is 10 components will work on Linux or not. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cover_your_ass -- Nadav Har'El| Sunday, Jul 8 2007, 22 Tammuz 5767 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Cats know what we feel. They don't care, http://nadav.harel.org.il |but they know. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
A Linux shop does exist. A few months ago a couple of guys opened one in Jerusalem: http://rootpcs.com If I understand correctly, in order to set up an small ISP, the following infrastructure would be needed: A connection to at least one bigger ISP, and preferably also to IIX. A server to handle DNS/mail/accounting etc and possibly routing Optional: a dedicated hardware router An 'ISP' connection to Bezeq and Hot. In addition to this you would need the manpower and business side. From what I have understood, the expensive part of running an ISP is the support part. In theory a non-profit cooperative with well-educated (Linux) users should be much cheaper to run, which might perhaps compensate for the small size, as well as being less complex to manage. What I look for in an ISP is for them to be invisible. Once a year to pay them, and other than that to ignore them and for my connection to 'just work'. I am sure that I am not alone with these sentiments. I invite all those who might be interested in such an idea (even if just as a customer and not being involved) to send me an off-list 'vote'. I fail to see why I should pay good money to companies who I have to fight with to convince them that they are to blame when my connection falls. David = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 08:01:50PM +0300, David Smith wrote: If I understand correctly, in order to set up an small ISP, the following infrastructure would be needed: A connection to at least one bigger ISP, and preferably also to IIX. A server to handle DNS/mail/accounting etc and possibly routing Optional: a dedicated hardware router An 'ISP' connection to Bezeq and Hot. You forgot an ISP license from whatever ministry issues them. This requires a lot of money. The cheapest way to do it is to buy an existing licensed ISP. That's how BEZEQ BENLUMI did it, they bought ISDNNET which got their license by buying a previous ISP. I know Orange was refused a license, I don't know how they eventually got one. Geoff -- Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel [EMAIL PROTECTED] N3OWJ/4X1GM IL Voice: (07)-7424-1667 U.S. Voice: 1-215-821-1838 Visit my 'blog at http://geoffstechno.livejournal.com/ = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
On 09/07/07, Geoffrey S. Mendelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, Jul 08, 2007 at 08:01:50PM +0300, David Smith wrote: If I understand correctly, in order to set up an small ISP, the following infrastructure would be needed: A connection to at least one bigger ISP, and preferably also to IIX. A server to handle DNS/mail/accounting etc and possibly routing Optional: a dedicated hardware router An 'ISP' connection to Bezeq and Hot. You forgot an ISP license from whatever ministry issues them. This requires a lot of money. The cheapest way to do it is to buy an existing licensed ISP. That's how BEZEQ BENLUMI did it, they bought ISDNNET which got their license by buying a previous ISP. I know Orange was refused a license, I don't know how they eventually got one. I didn't quite follow the entire discussion from top to bottom, but is there an option to become a reseller? That way you get the basic infrastructure from an approved ISP but create your own brand and support lines. Not sure it makes sense, especially in the Israeli context, but apparently it's common in other parts of the world. --Amos
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
Oleg Goldshmidt wrote: Omer Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Amit Aronovitch: - Uses Netvision. Netvision seems to have a single Linux support person. It is easier to re-create the problem using a MS-Windows laptop and report the error messages displayed by MS-Windows. Sorry for being late to the game. I do not dispute the above, but I was a Netvision customer (privately, not as a business) from something like 1996 (don't remember exactly) until a few years ago. I was always able to get Linux support from them. The support people were not exactly gurus, but they were able to solve problems (not that I had many of them) and I don't recall anyone expressing real surprise when I said from the outset that I was using Linux, never did they say they did not support it, nor did they insist on verifying a problem on Windows (which I didn't have). FTR, this is consistent with my report (sorry if it might seem otherwise from the summary above). I did not say that the Linux support was bad, just that there's a longer wait (I don't know how many Linux support people they have, per shift or otherwise, but it certainly took some time until they called back, whereas for Windows the first person to answer can handle the call). I did say that from my personal, narrow perspective it is much more efficient to recreate in Windows and avoid mentioning Linux altogether. It might be true that from a wider POV, we should ask for Linux support anyways, so their statistics become more realistic and they might decide to hire more supporters. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
Dotan Cohen: - Actcom. - Last time I called them with a problem was few weeks ago, and at the time all seemed normal. - If there is no Linux support anymore at Actcom, what must one do to connect via a Jordanian ISP? Asaf Halili and Geoffrey S. Mendelson: - Actcom was sold to Bezeq Beinleumi, need to check current status of Linux support. Geoffrey S. Mendelson: - Are Orange and Bynet still an option? They have not been cheap, though. - Does BEZEQ (the phone company, not the ISP) still have their 10 NIS a month deal for support of a router on an aDSL line? That might be a better option such as a Linksys WRTG54-L and Tomato. Danny Schneidman - a former employee of Actcom: - Dont count on Linux support, as all employees got fired, and as far as i understood, Bezeq's supporters have no clue. - The changes are since 2007 June 1 (two weeks ago). Ori Idan: - Wrote a post about it in: http://www.oriidan.info/article/custserv (At the moment of making this summary, his domain is inaccessible.) Amit Aronovitch: - Uses Netvision. Netvision seems to have a single Linux support person. It is easier to re-create the problem using a MS-Windows laptop and report the error messages displayed by MS-Windows. Chaim Keren Tsion: - Will stay with Bezeq Beinleumi, and suggests to use the group power of Linux using Actcom customers to get Bezeq Beinleumi to continue to support Linux like Actcom did. --- Omer -- Delay is the deadliest form of denial.C. Northcote Parkinson My own blog is at http://tddpirate.livejournal.com/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [SUMMARY] Current status of Israeli ISPs
Omer Zak [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Amit Aronovitch: - Uses Netvision. Netvision seems to have a single Linux support person. It is easier to re-create the problem using a MS-Windows laptop and report the error messages displayed by MS-Windows. Sorry for being late to the game. I do not dispute the above, but I was a Netvision customer (privately, not as a business) from something like 1996 (don't remember exactly) until a few years ago. I was always able to get Linux support from them. The support people were not exactly gurus, but they were able to solve problems (not that I had many of them) and I don't recall anyone expressing real surprise when I said from the outset that I was using Linux, never did they say they did not support it, nor did they insist on verifying a problem on Windows (which I didn't have). I would be interested to know if this actually changed in recent years (I enjoy business grade support through my employer so I quit Netvision a few years ago). -- Oleg Goldshmidt | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.goldshmidt.org = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
