Re: OT: To: & Cc:
more people then in kmail:-) what happened to the vote btw?can I readd the replay header? Ely Levy System group Hebrew University Jerusalem Israel On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, Herouth Maoz wrote: | On Tuesday 28 November 2000 22:15, Jonathan Ben-Avraham wrote: | | > You answer your own question. The double reply is for folks who post | > to lists to which they do not subscribe. Think about it. | | Also to people who subscribe in digest mode, and may want to have an | immediate reply when they ask a question. | | BTW, my e-mailer is KMail. It has reply and reply-to-all. How many | people use Mutt anyway? | | Herouth | | To unsubscribe, send mail to |[EMAIL PROTECTED] with | the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command | echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: To: & Cc:
Hi, Ely! On Wed, Nov 29, 2000 at 09:20:13PM +0200, you wrote the following: > what happened to the vote btw?can I readd the replay header? I've posted the vote results on linux-il some time ago. You can see them at http://www.egroups.com/surveys/iglu?id=374380 . It's 11 to 8 against having the header. I hoped the vote would conclude the issue once and for all. -- Alex Shnitman| http://www.debian.org [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] +--- http://alexsh.hectic.netUIN 188956PGP key on web page E1 F2 7B 6C A0 31 80 28 63 B8 02 BA 65 C7 8B BA Personally, I never finish my = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: To: & Cc:
On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Nadav Har'El wrote: > But let's face it - we'll never agree on what is the "proper" way to handle > replies to mailing-lists... And so we prove my original point: using vi+sendmail, I'll stay by my opinion on the proper way to handle mailing-list -- the while "it's the fault of your MUA" issue is bogus. -- Moshe Zadka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- 95855124 http://advogato.org/person/moshez = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: To: & Cc:
Hi, Nadav!
On Tue, Nov 28, 2000 at 08:38:32PM +0200, you wrote the following:
> 2. The lists mentioned on these directives have other side-effects besides
> making "L" work. The most annoying side-effect (for me) is that for every
> mailing list message, in the message list, you see the mailing list name
> instead of the poster's name. For people that don't have email filtering
> this is actually good, but for me it is very bad - I have a seperate
> folder for linux-il, and it doesn't help much when each and every message
> there is labled "linux-il" rather then by the poster's name! Perhaps
> there's a way to circumvent this problem, but I didn't bother to waste
> my time on this, because linux-il is one of the very few mailing lists
> that have this problem, and because the "g" solution works.
You've spent milleniums to write monstrous spam protection scripts in
order to purify your e-mail experience, and you couldn't be bothered
to look in the mutt documentation for five minutes to find a solution
to this trivial problem?...
set index_format="%4C %Z %{%b %d} %-15.15F (%4l) %s"
--
Alex Shnitman| http://www.debian.org
[EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] +---
http://alexsh.hectic.netUIN 188956PGP key on web page
E1 F2 7B 6C A0 31 80 28 63 B8 02 BA 65 C7 8B BA
/real/ kernel hackers
dd if=/dev/urandom of=/vmlinuz
and influence the Universal Randomosity Field.
-- Gaal Yahas
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Re: OT: To: & Cc:
On Wed, Nov 29, 2000, Moshe Zadka wrote about "Re: OT: To: & Cc:": > I use sometimes pine, sometimes mutt and sometimes MH. In each case, > I usually either reply to the person specifically, or reply to the > list in general and the person -- unless I remember that this > person does not like to receive mails twice. I'd do that even if I'm > using vi+sendmail. > > Of course, the real problem is that you never know what you want to do, > because you never know what the person on the other side likes you to do. > Maybe I like to have replies go both to me and to the list. Maybe not. > Maybe I'm subscribed. Maybe I'm not. There was a thread about it in > Debian-Devel, and the agreed solution was that > > a) people should use their MUA to add a Mail-Followup-To: header. > b) people who reply should configure their MUA to honour >Mail-Followup-To:. But this gets more complicated: when somebody posts to the list a reply to your email, does he keep your address on the Mail-Followup-To, or not? Any choice is problematic: if you take the original person off and he's not subscribe he'll not see the replies to the replies, but if you leave him on he might get dozens of replies in sub-threads he's no longer interested in, and this might drag on for weeks (sometimes people "reply" even when they simply intend to post a new message). The latter is what happening in linux-il: sometimes you see when you press "g"roup reply that the email will be going to half-a-dozen people, each of them contributed one message to the thread you're replying too; The thread may have completely divereged since but the originator of the thread will still be getting a personal copy of every message on it. In short I think that there's only one solution to this nasty problem: when you write something to a list you must expect to visit the list to find the replies. Plain and simple. You simply can't rely on people forwarding a copy of every reply to you, or making decisions on what is a "reply" which should be forwarded to you and what is not. And once you can't rely on that and are forced to read the list anyway, getting a personal copy of each message becomes a nuisance. At least in my opinion. But let's face it - we'll never agree on what is the "proper" way to handle replies to mailing-lists... -- Nadav Har'El|Wednesday, Nov 29 2000, 2 Kislev 5761 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |I used to be a lumberjack, but I just http://nadav.harel.org.il |couldn't hack it, so they gave me the axe. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: To: & Cc:
Moshe Zadka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Let's start a poll ;) > > I've moved pine->mutt->nmh elm -> pine -> vm -> gnus was my path, with OpenLook's mailtool somewhere in between, relatively briefly. We are not on egroups any more, are we? Is there a polling station on the ILUG site? -- Oleg Goldshmidt | Comgates Ltd. | [EMAIL PROTECTED] "... We work by wit, and not by witchcraft; And wit depends on dilatory time." = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: To: & Cc:
On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Nadav Har'El wrote: > On Tue, Nov 28, 2000, Herouth Maoz wrote about "Re: OT: To: & Cc:": > > BTW, my e-mailer is KMail. It has reply and reply-to-all. How many > > people use Mutt anyway? > > Let's start a poll ;) I've moved pine->mutt->nmh I love the nmh design, and hate the details. So I've started writing a new MUA which I'm planning to start dogfooding in a week or so. It simply scared me how easy it was. -- Moshe Zadka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- 95855124 http://advogato.org/person/moshez = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: To: & Cc:
On Wed, 29 Nov 2000, Nadav Har'El wrote: > You sort-of missed the point - if people were using vi & sendmail to send > replies, then indeed almost nobody will reply to both the person on the > list (except the people who _deliberately_ want to do that, but most people > don't). Huh? I'm not sure why you're saying that. I use sometimes pine, sometimes mutt and sometimes MH. In each case, I usually either reply to the person specifically, or reply to the list in general and the person -- unless I remember that this person does not like to receive mails twice. I'd do that even if I'm using vi+sendmail. Of course, the real problem is that you never know what you want to do, because you never know what the person on the other side likes you to do. Maybe I like to have replies go both to me and to the list. Maybe not. Maybe I'm subscribed. Maybe I'm not. There was a thread about it in Debian-Devel, and the agreed solution was that a) people should use their MUA to add a Mail-Followup-To: header. b) people who reply should configure their MUA to honour Mail-Followup-To:. > It's like asking why most (if not all) messages on this list are in English, > and then replying "the wonderful thing about the internet and client/server > protocols, is that you never know what's on the other side. I can send a > message in Klingon if I want". The correct analogy would be "Why are so many e-mails in English? In mutt, I can write messages in Klingon". "Well, I can write messages in Klingon in vi+sendmail. If you want me to write you in Klingon, please add a Reply-In-Language: header, and I'll set my MUA to honour it and auto-translate.". Accept that auto-translating English->Klingon is AI complete, and thankfully, configuring MUAs correctly isn't. -- Moshe Zadka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- 95855124 http://advogato.org/person/moshez = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: To: & Cc:
On Tue, Nov 28, 2000, Herouth Maoz wrote about "Re: OT: To: & Cc:": > BTW, my e-mailer is KMail. It has reply and reply-to-all. How many > people use Mutt anyway? Let's start a poll ;) My mailer history was using mailx (a.k.a. Mail) until about 1992, when I switched to elm, and only about a year ago I finally switched to mutt, because elm was starting to feel like a straight-jacket (it didn't support attachments, for example! [1]) and because mutt's look-and-feel is very similar to elm's (I don't like pine's look-and-feel). I never used a graphical mailer: as one of the mutt authors says (and I'm paraphrasing - I don't remember the exact quote): "I use a text-based mailer because I tend to type my emails, not click them." I also keep my email on a central computer, and log onto it from anywhere to read my mail, and this is much easier to do with a textual mailer like mutt. [1] http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/mutt/vs.elm.html -- Nadav Har'El|Wednesday, Nov 29 2000, 2 Kislev 5761 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Hardware, n.: The parts of a computer http://nadav.harel.org.il |system that can be kicked. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: To: & Cc:
On Wed, Nov 29, 2000, Moshe Zadka wrote about "Re: OT: To: & Cc:": > On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, Guy Cohen wrote: > > > I been away from the list for a while and beed reading the list again > > for the last few days. I could not help but noticing pepoel reply > > to mails to the sender _and_ to the list, and i ask you why ? > > In mutt you press the "L" for replying only to the list, so is that > > ... > You know, the wonderful thing about the internet and client/server > protocols, is that you never know what's on the other side. Maybe > I used "vi" to edit /var/spool/mail for your message, replied then > used /usr/lib/sendmail to send it? You sort-of missed the point - if people were using vi & sendmail to send replies, then indeed almost nobody will reply to both the person on the list (except the people who _deliberately_ want to do that, but most people don't). The reason many people do end up sending the message twice is because their non-vi-and-sendmail editor makes it easy to do so, usually in the form of a "group reply" or "reply to all" operation. So to understand why people do that, you have to understand the muas they use. I.e., does pine make it easy to reply this way? Does mutt? Does Netscape, Kmail, or whatever? As mentioned by me and other people, in mutt, just as an example, it is trivial to reply in this fashion, but it is not-trivial (although not very hard) to reply only to the list. It's like asking why most (if not all) messages on this list are in English, and then replying "the wonderful thing about the internet and client/server protocols, is that you never know what's on the other side. I can send a message in Klingon if I want". This is true, but not really an answer to the question. To answer the question you do need to understand the actual, not "theoretical", users. -- Nadav Har'El|Wednesday, Nov 29 2000, 2 Kislev 5761 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |I am the world's greatest authority on http://nadav.harel.org.il |my own opinion. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: To: & Cc:
On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, Herouth Maoz wrote: > BTW, my e-mailer is KMail. It has reply and reply-to-all. How many > people use Mutt anyway? This sounds like the right time for a shameless plug: have you considered the newly created MUA PMH? While it's only in pre-alpha, you might want to play with it and get a feel for it. 0.0.1.2.pre-alpha due RSN. http://www.moshez.org for more! -- Moshe Zadka <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> -- 95855124 http://advogato.org/person/moshez = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: To: & Cc:
On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, Guy Cohen wrote: > I been away from the list for a while and beed reading the list again > for the last few days. I could not help but noticing pepoel reply > to mails to the sender _and_ to the list, and i ask you why ? > In mutt you press the "L" for replying only to the list, so is that > so hard to do that instead of typing the "g" for global reply ? > I'm quite sure pine, elm, or any other mailer have a group reply only > botton/function. So why don't use that ? You know, the wonderful thing about the internet and client/server protocols, is that you never know what's on the other side. Maybe I used "vi" to edit /var/spool/mail for your message, replied then used /usr/lib/sendmail to send it? = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: To: & Cc:
On Tuesday 28 November 2000 22:15, Jonathan Ben-Avraham wrote: > You answer your own question. The double reply is for folks who post > to lists to which they do not subscribe. Think about it. Also to people who subscribe in digest mode, and may want to have an immediate reply when they ask a question. BTW, my e-mailer is KMail. It has reply and reply-to-all. How many people use Mutt anyway? Herouth ÝØ unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: To: & Cc:
Oleg Goldshmidt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > How does mutt know what is list and what is a person? > Good point, i have forgot that. in .muttrc put a line start with: lists . For example i have there: lists [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] etc. This will also put the name of the list in the pager instead of the sender name,which personaly i find very usefull Guy = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: To: & Cc:
And just when we thought the reply-to thread was dead for good ;) On Tue, Nov 28, 2000, Jonathan Ben-Avraham wrote about "Re: OT: To: & Cc:": > On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, Guy Cohen wrote: > > > I been away from the list for a while and beed reading the list again > ~ > > for the last few days. I could not help but noticing pepoel reply > > to mails to the sender _and_ to the list, and i ask you why ? > > In mutt you press the "L" for replying only to the list, so is that > > so hard to do that instead of typing the "g" for global reply ? > > I'm quite sure pine, elm, or any other mailer have a group reply only > > botton/function. So why don't use that ? In my version of mutt (and probably yours too...), using "L" requires you to list each and every mailing list you subscribe to in special directives in the muttrc file. This is problematic in two ways: 1. Most people don't know how to use this feature, so "L" doesn't work for them, so they use "g", which does work. Pure and simple - the less straightforward a feature is, the less people will use it. 2. The lists mentioned on these directives have other side-effects besides making "L" work. The most annoying side-effect (for me) is that for every mailing list message, in the message list, you see the mailing list name instead of the poster's name. For people that don't have email filtering this is actually good, but for me it is very bad - I have a seperate folder for linux-il, and it doesn't help much when each and every message there is labled "linux-il" rather then by the poster's name! Perhaps there's a way to circumvent this problem, but I didn't bother to waste my time on this, because linux-il is one of the very few mailing lists that have this problem, and because the "g" solution works. > > Guy > > > > P.S. now if someone reply to this, i just wondar how it will be done (L/g) ?. Like 95% of the people on this list, I replied with "g"... > You answer your own question. The double reply is for folks who post to > lists to which they do not subscribe. Think about it. I don't think this is true. Most lists (I'm not sure if linux-il is like that) don't even allow people to post without subscribing first. This makes a lot of sense - it is very rude to "shout" a question in a mailing list, and then instead of hanging around the list to read the replies, you run away and expect that people find you themselves. So after you write a question in a mailing list (or newsgroup) good nettiquette requires you to stay on that mailing list (or newsgroup) and read the discussion that results from it. Requests like "please reply directly to me because I don't have time to read this list" are generally frowned-upon and ignored. -- Nadav Har'El| Tuesday, Nov 28 2000, 2 Kislev 5761 [EMAIL PROTECTED] |- Phone: +972-53-245868, ICQ 13349191 |Lottery: A tax on people who are bad at http://nadav.harel.org.il |math. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: To: & Cc:
Guy Cohen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I been away from the list for a while and beed reading the list again > for the last few days. I could not help but noticing pepoel reply > to mails to the sender _and_ to the list, and i ask you why ? > In mutt you press the "L" for replying only to the list, so is that > so hard to do that instead of typing the "g" for global reply ? > I'm quite sure pine, elm, or any other mailer have a group reply only > botton/function. So why don't use that ? How does mutt know what is list and what is a person? I am not aware of any function like that in gnus - my mail/news reader of choice. This reply is sent with F - "wide reply", and Guys personal email has been edited out by hand as a courtesy, just this one time. This has been discussed here several times. Ira (hello?) raised the question in the past, IIRC. The issue is wider than one mailing list + individual member addresses. Some individual addresses might belong to people who are not on the list. A message can be cross-posted to several lists. I am not going to spend time determining that and editing the recipients' list by hand every time. There are solutions though. The simplest for everybody running linux (or UNIX, am I missing a relevant OS?) is given in "man procmailex": put :0 Wh: msgid.lock | formail -D 8192 msgid.cache in ~/.procmailrc. I *never* get a duplicate - cross-post at will! Some mail readers (gnus among them) offer their own ways to deal with duplicates, but procmail offers a solution independent of your choice of mailer. Another solution depends on the list admin(s): set up Reply-To to be linux-il. Then hitting reply (not "wide reply" or "reply to all") will do the right thing, except in those cases when you do want to cross-post. If I am not mistaken, egroups (a.k.a. hackers-il) has this feature. I hope this answers the question "why", and I hope the suggestions are helpful. -- Oleg Goldshmidt | Comgates Ltd. | [EMAIL PROTECTED] "... We work by wit, and not by witchcraft; And wit depends on dilatory time." = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: OT: To: & Cc:
On Tue, 28 Nov 2000, Guy Cohen wrote:
> I been away from the list for a while and beed reading the list again
~
> for the last few days. I could not help but noticing pepoel reply
> to mails to the sender _and_ to the list, and i ask you why ?
> In mutt you press the "L" for replying only to the list, so is that
> so hard to do that instead of typing the "g" for global reply ?
> I'm quite sure pine, elm, or any other mailer have a group reply only
> botton/function. So why don't use that ?
>
>
> Guy
>
> P.S. now if someone reply to this, i just wondar how it will be done (L/g) ?.
>
> =
> To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with
> the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command
> echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>
You answer your own question. The double reply is for folks who post to
lists to which they do not subscribe. Think about it.
- yba
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OT: To: & Cc:
I been away from the list for a while and beed reading the list again for the last few days. I could not help but noticing pepoel reply to mails to the sender _and_ to the list, and i ask you why ? In mutt you press the "L" for replying only to the list, so is that so hard to do that instead of typing the "g" for global reply ? I'm quite sure pine, elm, or any other mailer have a group reply only botton/function. So why don't use that ? Guy P.S. now if someone reply to this, i just wondar how it will be done (L/g) ?. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word "unsubscribe" in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
