Re: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
2008/6/30 Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: And what will happen when you save, close your application, and then reload the document? Wouldn't you expect your Ctrl-Alt-X to be remembered? That requires application support, there is no way[1] to do that using the toolkit. No, I wouldn't expect that. It would be nice if the app remembers in what directionality the text was typed, but I don't want to sacrifice to ability to type RTL just because the app won't remember how I typed it. In fact, I want to be able to choose the direction, and not have the app choose it for me. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
2008/6/30 Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: There is an old usenet tradition that is still honored by many modern mail clients. If you put a line containing just two dashes and a space (i.e. - -- ), many mail clients will understand that to mean that that's where the signature begins. As a result, hitting reply will not quote it and other nice things. Shachar Like this? Thanks. -- Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=165406 Thanks. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
2008/6/30 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=165406 And if you bother doing it - consider using all the maximum of 20 votes you can put on each single bug. --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
2008/6/30 Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=165406 And if you bother doing it - consider using all the maximum of 20 votes you can put on each single bug. --Amos = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
Quoting Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=165406 What bothers me about this bug description is that you use the word alignment, and that really has nothing to do with the problem at hand, which is directionality. You wish the various pieces of the text to be correctly ordered from right to left. If they just justify it to the right, it would be a great waste of votes, and that's what the word alignment implies. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
2008/6/30 Herouth Maoz [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Quoting Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=165406 What bothers me about this bug description is that you use the word alignment, and that really has nothing to do with the problem at hand, which is directionality. You wish the various pieces of the text to be correctly ordered from right to left. If they just justify it to the right, it would be a great waste of votes, and that's what the word alignment implies. Thanks, Maoz, please add that information to the bug. I am not sure that I understand the difference nor am I poetic enough in the Queen's language to properly express it. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
Herouth Maoz wrote: Quoting Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=165406 What bothers me about this bug description is that you use the word alignment, and that really has nothing to do with the problem at hand, which is directionality. You wish the various pieces of the text to be correctly ordered from right to left. If they just justify it to the right, it would be a great waste of votes, and that's what the word alignment implies. What bothers me even more is that this is just KDE working as it should. The bug is in kate and the rest of the programs that decided not to have bidi support. There is NO way to provide a generic solution to this problem at the toolkit level. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
Hi Dotan, I have seen you bug sprint this week, don't worry :) However, bug 165406 talks about input controls,which in Qt4 do not have automatic direction detection. IMHO, this is a non important bug compared to 163459 http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=163459 This one renderes Plasma completelly useless for RTL users, and prevents the proper translation of the GUI: it means that Plasma will *always* be LTR, since the graphics scene layout system does not know about the widget direction and ignores that property completelly. The last bug will hopefuly fixed by Trolltech in Qt45 which means (I am currently looking if this issue has been sent to the trolls at all). One more note: Voting in this case is completelly usesless. The LTR developers (hm) are afraid of touching this, and with good reasonss. There are very few people which understand this area, and none of them are coding right now. Even if you have giziliion-gazillio votes - no one will fix this issue. I will try to find time in a month or two, but I cannot promise anything, and specially nothing for KDE 4.0, maybe (with a lot of luck for KDE 4.1.2 or 4.1.1), but most possible for 4.2.0. My suggestion? Nag the distributions. They have resources (=developers) which can be spent in this subject, they can really make a difference. So far, none of the distros are paying for a developer in the RTL/BiDI field - and this is why KDE4 and (somettimes...) gnome are licking balls in this area. On Mon, 30 Jun 2008 13:06:17 +0300, Dotan Cohen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user: http://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=165406 Thanks. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? BTW, WTF is this garbage? Is this opera writing shit, or badly sent email? I don't see it in KMail �˛���m� �ٚ�[h�)��)kz,���iȥ�+a����n�˛���m觶�z����w'�(�f�u�!��칻 �ޙ���)��)kz,���iȥ -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
2008/6/30 Diego Iastrubni [EMAIL PROTECTED]: My suggestion? Nag the distributions. They have resources (=developers) which can be spent in this subject, they can really make a difference. So far, none of the distros are paying for a developer in the RTL/BiDI field - and this is why KDE4 and (somettimes...) gnome are licking balls in this area. Here, nag with me: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/meta-kde4/+bug/244228 BTW, WTF is this garbage? Is this opera writing shit, or badly sent email? I don't see it in KMail Is that from my sig? If so then it should be the Hebrew alphabet. I put it there to parse incorrectly-encoded replies on mailing lists, which helps me refine the http://gibberish.co.il website. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
2008/6/30 Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What bothers me even more is that this is just KDE working as it should. The bug is in kate and the rest of the programs that decided not to have bidi support. There is NO way to provide a generic solution to this problem at the toolkit level. Shachar At what level do you suggest that the directionality shortcut be added to KDE apps, as is the case in Mozilla apps? I will file a bug at the place that you suggest, Shachar. Thanks. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
Quoting Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What bothers me even more is that this is just KDE working as it should. The bug is in kate and the rest of the programs that decided not to have bidi support. There is NO way to provide a generic solution to this problem at the toolkit level. Why? A toolkit is supposed to control the behavior of the various fields and items that it offers as black boxes to the user. Of course, the reference here is only to generic text fields. Of course, word processors usually take control and either use their own text engines, or the toolkit offers plain and complex text engines, and they choose the complex. for plain text fields, including labels static text, the directionality is, indeed, under the responsibility of the toolkit. Or am I missing something here? Herouth = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
Dotan Cohen wrote: At what level do you suggest that the directionality shortcut be added to KDE apps, as is the case in Mozilla apps? I will file a bug at the place that you suggest, Shachar. Thanks. Directionality is meaningless unless the application stores it somehow. This means that the application needs to be able to tell what direction to apply to each text control. I don't know QT nearly well enough to answer this completely, so treat everything I say as a basis for discussion rather than as a firm recommendation. As far as I can tell, a text control should have one of three modes: Left to right Right to left Content controlled (typically - first strict directional character of line determines direction) Also, each control should have the option to have each line of separate directionality, or the entire control of one directionality. As far as what should be done, this depends on the application. If kate is a pure text editor, with no allowances in the file format for meta data, then it should probably be in the third form (content control). A word processor should definitely control explicitly each line, and set the paragraph explicitly. A browser should set the URL line explicitly to left to right, and so on. Just my 2 euro cents. Shachar P.s. Herouth is her first name = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
Herouth Maoz wrote: Or am I missing something here? How will you supply round trip preservation of directionality (running program - disk - running program) if the application is unaware of the directionality? Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
Dotan Cohen wrote: I put it there to parse incorrectly-encoded replies on mailing lists, which helps me refine the http://gibberish.co.il website. Love it! It's gibberish cookies encoding Not the most polite of things to do, but still brilliant. Shachar = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
Quoting Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Herouth Maoz wrote: Or am I missing something here? How will you supply round trip preservation of directionality (running program - disk - running program) if the application is unaware of the directionality? That's not the purpose here, and indeed, the bug description says that explicitly. What is asked here is a way for you to be able to fill a field, and while you type, to view it in the proper direction. An example that comes to mind is a forum, where the user uses plain HTML text fields for input, but knows that the eventual output will be displayed properly (either because it's the default or because there is a control for it in the form), so he wants to be able to see what he types properly. This is just a convenience for the user, and not until you have used it do you realize how very convenient this is. It's supported in the Macintosh since at least the early '90s, and no, the applications themselves do not support this internally nor save the directionality. Herouth To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
2008/6/30 Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: P.s. Herouth is her first name Sorry, I did not even recognize that as a Hebrew name until not. The o and the h confused me into not recognizing it. Anyway, I'm sure in the army she was called Maoz by people less nice than me! Love it! It's gibberish cookies encoding Not the most polite of things to do, but still brilliant. Politeness is not my intention in the lines below my name. That's business! Everything above my name, however, is worded for respect and politeness, or so I try. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
2008/6/30 Shachar Shemesh [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Herouth Maoz wrote: Or am I missing something here? How will you supply round trip preservation of directionality (running program - disk - running program) if the application is unaware of the directionality? I'm not as technically inclined as you, so I may be missing something obvious here, but I think that the application will know which direction because I tell it, via the keyboard shortcut. If it's LTR and I want RTL I hit Ctrl-Alt-X and vice versa. Try it in a Mozilla app. Dotan Cohen http://what-is-what.com http://gibberish.co.il א-ב-ג-ד-ה-ו-ז-ח-ט-י-ך-כ-ל-ם-מ-ן-נ-ס-ע-ף-פ-ץ-צ-ק-ר-ש-ת A: Because it messes up the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
Re: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
Dotan Cohen wrote: I'm not as technically inclined as you, so I may be missing something obvious here, but I think that the application will know which direction because I tell it, via the keyboard shortcut. If it's LTR and I want RTL I hit Ctrl-Alt-X and vice versa. Try it in a Mozilla app. And what will happen when you save, close your application, and then reload the document? Wouldn't you expect your Ctrl-Alt-X to be remembered? That requires application support, there is no way[1] to do that using the toolkit. Shachar 1- Obviously, there is a way. For example, we can store a hash of the content of the control box along with the directionality override. That will not transfer correctly to another machine, but we can set a p2p network that will distribute it to other clients so it will display correctly on everyone who opts-in to do so. Such a thing is, obviously[2], too ludicrous to be implemented by anyone. 2- Obvious, that is, until you realize this is, almost exactly, what greasemonkey is doing. = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Please vote for this KDE bidi bug, even if you are not a KDE user
Dotan Cohen wrote: Politeness is not my intention in the lines below my name. There is an old usenet tradition that is still honored by many modern mail clients. If you put a line containing just two dashes and a space (i.e. - -- ), many mail clients will understand that to mean that that's where the signature begins. As a result, hitting reply will not quote it and other nice things. Shachar -- A temporary signature to demonstrate a point = To unsubscribe, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the word unsubscribe in the message body, e.g., run the command echo unsubscribe | mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
