Linux news from Finland
Hi all, I was looking for an article on research into replacing windows PC's with the Linux operating system in the Finnish Public Sector but could not find it (its out there somewhere). I did however came across this one, which might interest some of you. Jan 19, 2002, from www.HelsinginSanomat.fi (largest national daily paper in Finland). Translated from the Finnish article at: http://www.helsinginsanomat.fi/arkisto/juttu.asp?id=20020119TA2 - 1/3 of large (500 employees) Finnish companies trust Linux - Over 50% of public sector entities are researching the option of replacing Windows with Linux (workstations). 34% use Linux servers, and 11% use it as workstations (these % must be non-exclusive of other OS types). - Linux has 20 million users worldwide (tens of thousands in Finland) - Nokia: ... Linux is not yet used on our office workstations, but we have used it in design and research... You can always push the article through a web translator to read more... Will
recursively change directory modes but not files inside
I have a directory tree in which I need to change the permissions on all the directories, but not the files iside, how do I do this quickly easily please! Thanks -- Nick Rout [EMAIL PROTECTED] Solicitor, PO Box 25-275, Christchurch, NZ ph +64-3-3798966 fax +64-3-3798853 http://www.rout.co.nz
virus scanners for sendmail based mailserver
Can anyone recommend a virus scanner for a sendmail based mail server to scan emails at point of entry/exit rather than at the workstation? Guy Steven.
Re: virus scanners for sendmail based mailserver
Can anyone recommend a virus scanner for a sendmail based mail server to scan emails at point of entry/exit rather than at the workstation? Guy Steven. Have you looked ay http://www.amavis.org (actually it doesn't suppply the scanner, just the mechanism for integrating it with your mta). It does have a list of scanners though. -- Nick Rout [EMAIL PROTECTED] Solicitor, PO Box 25-275, Christchurch, NZ ph +64-3-3798966 fax +64-3-3798853 http://www.rout.co.nz
Re: recursively change directory modes but not files inside
On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 09:22:57AM +1200, Nick Rout wrote: I have a directory tree in which I need to change the permissions on all the directories, but not the files iside, how do I do this quickly easily please! ``find'', specifically with the ``-exec'' and ``-type'' arguments. -- Matthew Gregan |/ /|[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [nzlug] recursively change directory modes but not files inside
Thanks to those who responded so quickly. I never did get my head around
the -exec {} business, but now I have
thanks muchly again
--
Nick Rout [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Solicitor, PO Box 25-275,
Christchurch, NZ
ph +64-3-3798966
fax +64-3-3798853
http://www.rout.co.nz
Re: virus scanners for sendmail based mailserver
We are about to install Kaspersky AV for a school server running postfix. KAV has a sendmail version - the catch would appear to be price:- the product is commercial and requires annual re-licencing. Normal features such as auto updates each day (or part therof) etc etc from the Internet... Default package is licensed for 100 mailboxes I think... Richard Smart Guy Steven [EMAIL PROTECTED] 05/02 9:26 Can anyone recommend a virus scanner for a sendmail based mail server to scan emails at point of entry/exit rather than at the workstation? Guy Steven.
OpenOffice 1.0 and other goodies at ftp.phys
Hello, Just downloaded OpenOffice 1.0 Available now at ftp://ftp.phys.canterbury.ac.nz/ I've also uploaded many other goodies (been too lazy till now :-) so it may pay to check the other directories as well. Enjoy! Cheers, -- Ryurick M. Hristev mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Computer Systems Manager University of Canterbury, Physics Astronomy Dept., New Zealand
Re: recursively change directory modes but not files inside
Posted on behalf of Michael JasonSmith. (he has email prob's) On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 09:22, Nick Rout wrote: I have a directory tree in which I need to change the permissions on all the directories, but not the files inside, how do I do this quickly easily please! chmod -R a+rX . See http://ldots.org/geek_tips/prev_contents_next_dtml?pagenum=21 for an explanation. -- Michael JasonSmith http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/~mpj17/
SECURITY: Apparently serious bug in Netscape 6 Mozilla
From the Bugtraq list and on Linux Today: Reading local files in Netscape 6 and Mozilla (GM#001-NS) Demonstration: == A fully dynamic proof-of-concept demonstration of this issue is available at http://security.greymagic.com/adv/gm001-ns/. As some of you may have noticed, the above proof-of-concept does not work in Mozilla 1.0 Release Candidate 1. Don't get your hopes high about this though, the issue has not been fixed in moz1rc1 - the XMLHttpRequest was simply broken in this version of the browser for unknown reasons, a fact not mentioned in the release notes. When trying to use it, either nothing happens or the browser crashes. The proof-of-concept works just fine in Mozilla 0.9.9 (and NS6.1+), and would work fine in moz1rc1 if the XMLHttpRequest object could be used at all. Cheers, -- Ryurick M. Hristev mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Computer Systems Manager University of Canterbury, Physics Astronomy Dept., New Zealand
Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet
Great Article...and so true Who owns your data?? You or the vendor of your proprietary data format?? http://www.linuxandmain.com/tech/robformats.html Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet By Rob Landley The answer to the title of this article is a single sentence, but you'll have to read the whole article to understand it. The Linux community has an amazing blind spot, and I'd like to rant about it a bit. I keep bumping into programmers who think some program or other is needed to change the world. They're wrong. "Linux just needs this one program and then we'll be ready!" they cry. I generally want to slap these people until they snap out of it (which is kind of hard to do through an internet connection). They are making a fundamentally wrong assumption. It's not about programs. It's about data. Let me repeat that. Data formats are important. Programs are not. Remainder of article at above link.
Microsoft complainant publishes open letter
Microsoft complainant publishes open letter http://www.idg.net.nz/webhome.nsf/NL/532A95908C65FD5FCC256BAC0018F668 Andrea Malcolm, Auckland The Auckland lawyer who has filed a complaint against Microsoft licensing practices with the Commerce Commission has posted an open letter to Microsoft users on the web. Craig Horrocks, a partner at Clendon Feeney, says since filing the complaint, which accuses Microsoft of anti-competitive behaviour (see Microsoft NZ hit with Commerce Commission complaint), he has received email from around the world. He says there have been unexpectedly extreme views, but, in general, Microsoft's removal of users' rights to upgrade existing licences for an upgrade fee as against having to re-buy product or subscribe to Microsoft's new Software Assurance programme, has tapped a vein of customer unhappiness. Clendon Feeney's operations arm, Infraserv, laid the complaint on April 3 and the Commerce Commission has been collecting information from both Horrocks and Microsoft. It it yet to decide whether the complaint warrants investigation.
Re: virus scanners for sendmail based mailserver
By far the best and free for private use: http://www.hbedv.com/ Now features auto update. Guy Steven wrote: Can anyone recommend a virus scanner for a sendmail based mail server to scan emails at point of entry/exit rather than at the workstation? Guy Steven.
Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet
I like his comment: Now comes the one sentence I told you about, explaining why Linux is nowhere to be found on your average end-user non-geek desktop: The worldwide established standard data format for exchanging word processing documents is Microsoft Word files, and no Linux distribution I know of comes with an open source program that can handle them. What a load of garbage, so lets imagine a world with MS Word support in linux, the majority of computer users (i.e. the non-technical non-geek types) who can't deal with installing windows let alone installing linux will flock in droves I don't think so. jeremyb. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2002/05/02 Thu PM 12:12:53 GMT+12:00 To: CLUG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet Great Article...and so true Who owns your data?? You or the vendor of your proprietary data format?? http://www.linuxandmain.com/tech/robformats.html Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet By Rob Landley mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The answer to the title of this article is a single sentence, but you'll have to read the whole article to understand it. The Linux community has an amazing blind spot, and I'd like to rant about it a bit. I keep bumping into programmers who think some program or other is needed to change the world. They're wrong. Linux just needs this one program and then we'll be ready! they cry. I generally want to slap these people until they snap out of it (which is kind of hard to do through an internet connection). They are making a fundamentally wrong assumption. It's not about programs. It's about data. Let me repeat that. Data formats are important. Programs are not. Remainder of article at above link. Great Article...and so true Who owns your data?? You or the vendor of your proprietary data format?? http://www.linuxandmain.com/tech/robformats.html Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet By Rob Landley The answer to the title of this article is a single sentence, but you'll have to read the whole article to understand it. The Linux community has an amazing blind spot, and I'd like to rant about it a bit. I keep bumping into programmers who think some program or other is needed to change the world. They're wrong. "Linux just needs this one program and then we'll be ready!" they cry. I generally want to slap these people until they snap out of it (which is kind of hard to do through an internet connection). They are making a fundamentally wrong assumption. It's not about programs. It's about data. Let me repeat that. Data formats are important. Programs are not. Remainder of article at above link.
Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet
Sorry I wasn't clear in my post. I don't agree with the writers supposition... I hate .doc and don't use it unless forced but he's got a point in that it is a major hurdle just getting people to understand there are other document formats in the first place. Many point and clickers think that .doc IS the document format of the internet. Pathetic but true. This article just reinforces the danger once again of using any proprietary, non-open data formats of any kind. Jeremy Bertenshaw wrote: 20020502012707.PMUM13342.mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz@mta1"> I like his comment:"Now comes the one sentence I told you about, explaining why Linux is nowhere to be found on your average end-user non-geek desktop: The worldwide established standard data format for exchanging word processing documents is Microsoft Word files, and no Linux distribution I know of comes with an open source program that can handle them."What a load of garbage, so lets imagine a world with MS Word support in linux, the majority of computer users (i.e. the non-technical non-geek types) who can't deal with installing windows let alone installing linux will flock in droves I don't think so.jeremyb. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: 2002/05/02 Thu PM 12:12:53 GMT+12:00To: CLUG [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yetGreat Article...and so true Who owns your data?? You or the vendor of your proprietary data format??http://www.linuxandmain.com/tech/robformats.html Why Linux isn't on the desktop yetBy Rob Landley mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]The answer to the title of this article is a single sentence, but you'll have to read the whole article to understand it. The Linux community has an amazing blind spot , and I'd like to rant about it a bit.I keep bumping into programmers who think some program or other is needed to change the world. They're wrong. "Linux just needs this one program and then we'll be ready!" they cry. I generally want to slap these people until they snap out of it (which is kind of hard to do through an internet connection). They are making a fundamentally wrong assumption. It's not about programs. It's about data.Let me repeat that. Data formats are important. Programs are not.Remainder of article at above link. Great Article...and so true Who owns your data?? You or the vendor of your proprietary data format?? http://www.linuxandmain.com/tech/robformats.html Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet By Rob Landley The answer to the title of this article is a single sentence, but you'll have to read the whole article to understand it. The Linux community has an amazing blind spot, and I'd like to rant about it a bit. I keep bumping into programmers who think some program or other is needed to change the world. They're wrong. "Linux just needs this one program and then we'll be ready!" they cry. I generally want to slap these people until they snap out of it (which is kind of hard to do through an internet connection). They are making a fundamentally wrong assumption. It's not about programs. It's about data. Let me repeat that. Data formats are important. Programs are not. Remainder of article at above link.
Re: Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet
I think the only way for Linux to make it on the desktop is for it do be like windows, but do it better, faster, more reliably and cheaper. I think lindows is a step in the right direction, most users are a complacent bunch, they don't like dealing with things out of their realm of knowledge, it's easy for us being know-it-all geeks to rant on about how much better life with linux would be, but the realities are that they don't want to change their UI and applications, let alone learn to use a scary new OS. Theres the other obvious points that there is nowhere for them to learn using linux, plenty of night classes or courses on windows, We use it at work, now if you can give them something that they can use with their current skills jeremyb. From: Jeremy Bertenshaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2002/05/02 Thu PM 01:27:07 GMT+12:00 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], CLUG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet I like his comment: Now comes the one sentence I told you about, explaining why Linux is nowhere to be found on your average end-user non-geek desktop: The worldwide established standard data format for exchanging word processing documents is Microsoft Word files, and no Linux distribution I know of comes with an open source program that can handle them. What a load of garbage, so lets imagine a world with MS Word support in linux, the majority of computer users (i.e. the non-technical non-geek types) who can't deal with installing windows let alone installing linux will flock in droves I don't think so. jeremyb. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2002/05/02 Thu PM 12:12:53 GMT+12:00 To: CLUG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet Great Article...and so true Who owns your data?? You or the vendor of your proprietary data format?? http://www.linuxandmain.com/tech/robformats.html Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet By Rob Landley mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The answer to the title of this article is a single sentence, but you'll have to read the whole article to understand it. The Linux community has an amazing blind spot, and I'd like to rant about it a bit. I keep bumping into programmers who think some program or other is needed to change the world. They're wrong. Linux just needs this one program and then we'll be ready! they cry. I generally want to slap these people until they snap out of it (which is kind of hard to do through an internet connection). They are making a fundamentally wrong assumption. It's not about programs. It's about data. Let me repeat that. Data formats are important. Programs are not. Remainder of article at above link. Great Article...and so true Who owns your data?? You or the vendor of your proprietary data format?? http://www.linuxandmain.com/tech/robformats.html Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet By Rob Landley The answer to the title of this article is a single sentence, but you'll have to read the whole article to understand it. The Linux community has an amazing blind spot, and I'd like to rant about it a bit. I keep bumping into programmers who think some program or other is needed to change the world. They're wrong. "Linux just needs this one program and then we'll be ready!" they cry. I generally want to slap these people until they snap out of it (which is kind of hard to do through an internet connection). They are making a fundamentally wrong assumption. It's not about programs. It's about data. Let me repeat that. Data formats are important. Programs are not. Remainder of article at above link.
Re: Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet
Don't worry dude, my rant was completely aimed at the Author of the article :-) From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2002/05/02 Thu PM 01:32:08 GMT+12:00 To: CLUG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet Sorry I wasn't clear in my post. I don't agree with the writers supposition... I hate .doc and don't use it unless forced but he's got a point in that it is a major hurdle just getting people to understand there are other document formats in the first place. Many point and clickers think that .doc IS the document format of the internet. Pathetic but true. This article just reinforces the danger once again of using any proprietary, non-open data formats of any kind. Jeremy Bertenshaw wrote: I like his comment: Now comes the one sentence I told you about, explaining why Linux is nowhere to be found on your average end-user non-geek desktop: The worldwide established standard data format for exchanging word processing documents is Microsoft Word files, and no Linux distribution I know of comes with an open source program that can handle them. What a load of garbage, so lets imagine a world with MS Word support in linux, the majority of computer users (i.e. the non-technical non-geek types) who can't deal with installing windows let alone installing linux will flock in droves I don't think so. jeremyb. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2002/05/02 Thu PM 12:12:53 GMT+12:00 To: CLUG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet Great Article...and so true Who owns your data?? You or the vendor of your proprietary data format?? http://www.linuxandmain.com/tech/robformats.html Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet By Rob Landley mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The answer to the title of this article is a single sentence, but you'll have to read the whole article to understand it. The Linux community has an amazing blind spot, and I'd like to rant about it a bit. I keep bumping into programmers who think some program or other is needed to change the world. They're wrong. Linux just needs this one program and then we'll be ready! they cry. I generally want to slap these people until they snap out of it (which is kind of hard to do through an internet connection). They are making a fundamentally wrong assumption. It's not about programs. It's about data. Let me repeat that. Data formats are important. Programs are not. Remainder of article at above link. Great Article...and so true Who owns your data?? You or the vendor of your proprietary data format?? http://www.linuxandmain.com/tech/robformats.html Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet By Rob Landley mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] The answer to the title of this article is a single sentence, but you'll have to read the whole article to understand it. The Linux community has an amazing blind spot, and I'd like to rant about it a bit. I keep bumping into programmers who think some program or other is needed to change the world. They're wrong. Linux just needs this one program and then we'll be ready! they cry. I generally want to slap these people until they snap out of it (which is kind of hard to do through an internet connection). They are making a fundamentally wrong assumption. It's not about programs. It's about data. Let me repeat that. Data formats are important. Programs are not. Remainder of article at above link. Sorry I wasn't clear in my post. I don't agree with the writers supposition... I hate .doc and don't use it unless forced but he's got a point in that it is a major hurdle just getting people to understand there are other document formats in the first place. Many point and clickers think that .doc IS the document format of the internet. Pathetic but true. This article just reinforces the danger once again of using any proprietary, non-open data formats of any kind. Jeremy Bertenshaw wrote: 20020502012707.PMUM13342.mta1-rme.xtra.co.nz@mta1"> I like his comment:"Now comes the one sentence I told you about, explaining why Linux is nowhere to be found on your average end-user non-geek desktop: The worldwide established standard data format for exchanging word processing documents is Microsoft Word files, and no Linux distribution I know of comes with an open source program that can handle them."What a load of garbage, so lets imagine a world with MS Word support in linux, the majority of computer users (i.e. the non-technical non-geek types) who can't deal with installing windows let alone installing linux will flock in droves I don't think so.jeremyb. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Date: 2002/05/02 Thu PM 12:12:53 GMT+12:00To: CLUG [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yetGreat Article...and so true Who owns your data??
Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet
I like his comment: Now comes the one sentence I told you about, explaining why Linux is nowhere to be found on your average end-user non-geek desktop: The worldwide established standard data format for exchanging word processing documents is Microsoft Word files, and no Linux distribution I know of comes with an open source program that can handle them. What a load of garbage, so lets imagine a world with MS Word support in linux, the majority of computer users (i.e. the non-technical non-geek types) who can't deal with installing windows let alone installing linux will flock in droves I don't think so. I didn't think the article made a good argument. Sure, Linux does need to have an application (not necessarily open source) that can read word files - mainly because people who didn't know better have been encrypting their data with MS-Office. But there are already several (Star Office and Open Office spring to mind, but aren't exclusive), some of which are open source. And my RedHat 7.1 distribution came with Star Office 5.2, so that's not the issue either. More to the point, which Windows distribution comes with any program to handle word files? You need to spend more money for that. - Mark
Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet
On Thu, May 02, 2002 at 01:48:22PM +1200, Mark Tomlinson wrote: More to the point, which Windows distribution comes with any program to handle word files? You need to spend more money for that. WordPad, which has been included with every standard Windows distribution since at least Windows 95, has basic support for the Microsoft .doc format. -- Matthew Gregan |/ /|[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry I wasn't clear in my post. I don't agree with the writers supposition... I hate .doc and don't use it unless forced but he's got a point in that it is a major hurdle just getting people to understand there are other document formats in the first place. Many point and clickers think that .doc IS the document format of the internet. Pathetic but true. This article just reinforces the danger once again of using any proprietary, non-open data formats of any kind. Wider than the 'format of the internet', though sadly my inbox attests to it... but the issue is really the the word .DOC format is the format of business and this is where the hurdle lies. I am looking with interest at the OpenOffice offerings, I KNOW that if I can show Word x.x compatibility, I can switch many clients away from M$ Word and ultimately, M$ O/S Adrian
Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet
On Thu, 2 May 2002, Jeremy Bertenshaw wrote: [...] What a load of garbage, ... [...] Maybe, maybe not. But apparently everybody is ignoring some other arguments which I personally find compelling: 1. The strategic and economic game: Practically all of the IT technology is controlled by US, hardware and software. You name it, is US: IBM, Microsoft, HP, Sun, etc. (manufacturing doesn't count, printers are the only exception but there is only Japan) As the IT penetrates the second and even third world countries I find very hard to believe that these countries will want to relinquish their IT infrastructure control (government and military above all) over to US. Can you imagine China, Russia and the Arab world basing their strategy on US controlled IT technology ? I can't. Can you imagine India and Latin America being able to pay the US prices for IT technology ? I can't. (yes, prices are country based but still too high). 2. The user game: The argument here is that users will not want that or they want something which is not available under Linux. First AFAIK in the average enterprise it is _not_ the user who decide but the _employer_ trough various authorities: CIO, etc. (Universities may be notable exceptions at least in some areas). Second, again AFAIK, most users interact with just one or two apps. An complex office suite is required only for the front office and few others like that. You don't need it for a POS or many other places. And finally if a user would use Linux at work for 8 hours why would he/she want to use anything else at home ? 3. The Linux is not ready for the desktop game: I've seen many articles with this subject over the last 3-6 months. This is a very interesting development not for what they say (that's obvious) but most importantly for what they don't say but imply. You would not have seen such articles in the past, it was damn obvious to anybody that Linux was not ready for Joe Average. But now you see them, a dime a dozed ;-) Which it turn means that is no longer obvious. One now have to do some serious study and write an article to argue the points! It means in fact that Linux is, if not ready, at least very close! Which in turn means in fact that Linux is _already_ good for the desktop for at least some situations! The development is interesting from another point of view as well: it follows very closely (so far) the same path as the Linux is not ready as server argument. For those who have followed the arguments 3-4 years ago the similarities are striking: after ~1 year of argumentation suddenly it ceased and Linux _was_ good as server. Nowadays very few deny this. It would be certainly interesting to follow this development. Cheers, -- Ryurick M. Hristev mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Computer Systems Manager University of Canterbury, Physics Astronomy Dept., New Zealand
Re: Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet
Howsabout sending me a page thats not in gibberish... :-P From: V K [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2002/05/02 Thu PM 01:57:29 GMT+12:00 To: Jeremy Bertenshaw [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet [offlist] Hey could you please do some serious study on how to respond to emails? http://learn.to/quote Thanks, Volker -- Volker Kuhlmann is possibly list0570 with the domain in header http://volker.orcon.net.nz/ Please do not CC list postings to me.
Re: Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet
I totally agree, altho' a lot of those countries like China are starting to develop their IT infrastructure and therefore can be a lot more open to new ideas and so forth, my concerns are more with the existing Windows userbase which is so hard to break into. jeremyb. From: Ryurick M. Hristev [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: 2002/05/02 Thu PM 01:57:13 GMT+12:00 To: Canterbury Linux LUG [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet On Thu, 2 May 2002, Jeremy Bertenshaw wrote: Maybe, maybe not. But apparently everybody is ignoring some other arguments which I personally find compelling: 1. The strategic and economic game: Practically all of the IT technology is controlled by US, hardware and software. You name it, is US: IBM, Microsoft, HP, Sun, etc. (manufacturing doesn't count, printers are the only exception but there is only Japan) As the IT penetrates the second and even third world countries I find very hard to believe that these countries will want to relinquish their IT infrastructure control (government and military above all) over to US. Can you imagine China, Russia and the Arab world basing their strategy on US controlled IT technology ? I can't. Can you imagine India and Latin America being able to pay the US prices for IT technology ? I can't. (yes, prices are country based but still too high). 2. The user game: The argument here is that users will not want that or they want something which is not available under Linux. First AFAIK in the average enterprise it is _not_ the user who decide but the _employer_ trough various authorities: CIO, etc. (Universities may be notable exceptions at least in some areas). Second, again AFAIK, most users interact with just one or two apps. An complex office suite is required only for the front office and few others like that. You don't need it for a POS or many other places. And finally if a user would use Linux at work for 8 hours why would he/she want to use anything else at home ? 3. The Linux is not ready for the desktop game: I've seen many articles with this subject over the last 3-6 months. This is a very interesting development not for what they say (that's obvious) but most importantly for what they don't say but imply. You would not have seen such articles in the past, it was damn obvious to anybody that Linux was not ready for Joe Average. But now you see them, a dime a dozed ;-) Which it turn means that is no longer obvious. One now have to do some serious study and write an article to argue the points! It means in fact that Linux is, if not ready, at least very close! Which in turn means in fact that Linux is _already_ good for the desktop for at least some situations! The development is interesting from another point of view as well: it follows very closely (so far) the same path as the Linux is not ready as server argument. For those who have followed the arguments 3-4 years ago the similarities are striking: after ~1 year of argumentation suddenly it ceased and Linux _was_ good as server. Nowadays very few deny this. It would be certainly interesting to follow this development. Cheers, -- Ryurick M. Hristev mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Computer Systems Manager University of Canterbury, Physics Astronomy Dept., New Zealand
Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet
On Thu, 2 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can you imagine China, Russia and the Arab world basing their strategy on US controlled IT technology ? I can't. Here I must disagree. Look at China. MS rules the desktop there. Note I didn't say they buy MS software, they simply pirate it. So the cost stumbling block is of no concern. One can easily download any piece of MS software for free. I'm not saying it's legal, but it's a fact. Fire up any p2p file sharing app and check it out if you don't believe me. And it's not just China, it happens globally, so the price issue is only of concern to those ethical enought to pay the MS tax. As far as relinqueshing control, look around you, even in the countries you list, MS is everywhere. Far from OSS being the cancer MS espouses, I'd say Windows is a far more malignant cance than OSS could ever be. I'm afraid you entirely missed the point. A country cannot build is long term IT strategy on bootlegged software. It may work for a while and as long as it's not widespread. Eventually bootleggers hurt themselves in the long run. Otherwise you could argue that you will build your retirement plan on the premises that you will steal whatever you will need when you will retire. I personally don't recommend you this path ;-) As for MS is everywhere: yes it is _now_, so what is your point ? Cheers, -- Ryurick M. Hristev mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Computer Systems Manager University of Canterbury, Physics Astronomy Dept., New Zealand
Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet
On Thu, 2 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My .02c worth... Sorry about the second mail forgot to answer to some. [...] See above argument. Plus, governments usually use specially designed apps that are not necessarily platform specific. In fact it is usually hardware specific and military hardware in particular is already a specialised game. That may be so but the special NT on Yorktown was apparently not special enough ;-) http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,13987,00.html Or maybe it was too special ? [...] There is a LOT of education that has to be done...that much is certain. I personally doubt that you can teach an old dog too many new tricks. It will happen probably over such a long time that you will have a generation rollover at the same time (which takes roughly ~25 years). Cheers, -- Ryurick M. Hristev mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Computer Systems Manager University of Canterbury, Physics Astronomy Dept., New Zealand
Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet
I personally doubt that you can teach an old dog too many new tricks. It will happen probably over such a long time that you will have a generation rollover at the same time (which takes roughly ~25 years. That's the time frame I had in mind as well...
Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet
On Thu, 02 May 2002, you wrote: I personally doubt that you can teach an old dog too many new tricks. It will happen probably over such a long time that you will have a generation rollover at the same time (which takes roughly ~25 years. That's the time frame I had in mind as well... So how many teachers out there are teaching kids non-OS-specific computer skills? Out of curiosity, are any such teachers subscribed to this list?
Sun Linux boss quits
http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/7/25115.html Sun Linux boss quits By Andrew Orlowski in San Francisco Posted: 01/05/2002 at 23:18 GMT In the wake of Ed Zander's departure, confirmed earlier today, the management changes continue a pace at Sun Microsystems. Stephen DeWitt, who joined with the Cobalt acquisition, has left the company. He was responsible for Sun's Linux strategy, and is the seventh senior executive to leave in the past week. Earlier today the trap door opened under Ed Zander, who was being measured for the noose by financial analysts on Monday; while last week CFO Michael Lehmann and systems VP John Shoemaker said they'd be leaving, too. That's enough for an ice hockey team, plus one substitute.
Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet
On Thu, 2 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You missed MY point. I'm not disagreeing with what your feelings are. :-) This _is_ a judgment call, given the arguments, it certainly cannot be demonstrated so each have to make up its mind. I really have nothing to do with feelings :-) I am a huge Linux fan and think MS is the bain of the computer industry bu the fact remains it will be a while before Linux can say it has made serious inroads into MS's stranglehold on the OS market, though, like you, I am confident it will happen. Again a judgment call which cannot be debated further. Personally I think that while won't last more than few years. [...] As for MS is everywhere: yes it is _now_, so what is your point ? Try telling the millions of people who pirate software every day that. Once again, I agree with you but most just do not get it that if they Pirating is a inconvenience. It may be a small inconvenience in some cases/countries but still. And there are two uncertainties, at least for businesses: - Can you put your mission-critical apps on bootlegged software ? What if tomorrow something happens and you suddenly won't be able to get the updates any longer ? Or read your data locked in some proprietary format ? - What about support ? For the bulk of it you may call some local help who do not care but what if you hit something where you need the vendor support ? - Security: how can you be sure that the vendors have not implanted some back-doors in unregistered software ? There are probably other reasons but I can't think of them right now. And from businesses it will trickle down to home users. Cheers, -- Ryurick M. Hristev mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Computer Systems Manager University of Canterbury, Physics Astronomy Dept., New Zealand
Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet
To quote the poet - Bugger all I work in a school, and the typing is done in MS Word 97. It will stay as MS Word 97 till the machinery catches fire and dies... because of the investment in teacher training, textbooks, and user-experiences. Have you ever seen a platform or version or program neutral typing textbook? If you did it would go like this... Welcome to YourTypingProgram... you can probably hit keys in order to make words, but after that it varies based on what software you have. This is the same reason we are stuck with obsolete email software (Inbox client for hExchange)... the bill for teacher relief to attend training was in the order of $5000. So we're stuck with it :-( On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 14:59, Yuri de Groot wrote: On Thu, 02 May 2002, you wrote: I personally doubt that you can teach an old dog too many new tricks. It will happen probably over such a long time that you will have a generation rollover at the same time (which takes roughly ~25 years. That's the time frame I had in mind as well... So how many teachers out there are teaching kids non-OS-specific computer skills? Out of curiosity, are any such teachers subscribed to this list?
Re: Why Linux isn't on the desktop yet
Many point and clickers think that .doc IS the document format of the internet. No, not of the internet, but of BUSINESS. Try sending a client a draft document in anything else and they can't do it. .pdf is a good alternative for this, but the client cannot alter it or put inline comments. -- Nick Rout [EMAIL PROTECTED] Solicitor, PO Box 25-275, Christchurch, NZ ph +64-3-3798966 fax +64-3-3798853 http://www.rout.co.nz
RE: Commerce Commission Complaint
I think it is a Good Thing (tm) to release the documents in Word format. Why? Because it highlights the very monopoly that Microsoft has on file formats and invested time and money. Things will only get better once international file format standards are created. Until then, its all MSFT's game. Cheers Gav PS and before you ask, yes I am pro-linux and anti-msft -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, May 02, 2002 16:35 To: CLUG Subject: Re: [opensource] Commerce Commission Complaint I agree and wrote an email to them telling them what I thought as a result. I wrote: To Whom It May Concern, While your open letter is of value and it is appreciated, it was written in a proprietary MS document format, namely .doc. I suggest you offer it in PDF or RTF, it would then perhaps carry more weight, especially within the zealous Open Source Community. Kind Regards, Jason Greenwood
Re: [opensource] Commerce Commission Complaint
We over here at Openz.org are working on making it available on the Openz site in XHTML... We'll let you know more when it's there. Might take a day or two as we're absolutely flat out on a bunch of other stuff... life at the moment is a bit like having a sip of water from a firehose. Cheers, Dave On Thu, 2002-05-02 at 16:34, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree and wrote an email to them telling them what I thought as a result. I wrote: To Whom It May Concern, While your open letter is of value and it is appreciated, it was written in a proprietary MS document format, namely .doc. I suggest you offer it in PDF or RTF, it would then perhaps carry more weight, especially within the zealous Open Source Community. Kind Regards, Jason Greenwood I know both formats are proprietary as well but both are well documented and supported, and are , in most senses, much more open than .doc If you like, I suggest all list members write to them at: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] and tell them what your views are on the subject. Jason James Doherty wrote: http://www.clendons.co.nz/microsoft_complaint.htm In his open letter he talks about how they are moving their company systems to Linux. Good on them. Anyone noticed that their 'open' letter is in MS Word format? (.doc) James Doherty -- ** David Lane - Egressive Limited * [EMAIL PROTECTED] * 03 963 3733 ** ** PO Box 24162, Christchurch, NZ * www.egressive.com ** 025 229 8147 ** ** Open Source: software for the discerning palate www.openz.org **
