Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 AAA Rating
Ben said: If someone with a contrast-related vision problem can't read the default version, how can they read the site to find the alternate stylesheet in the first place?And Mike said: but with an incredibly obvious user preference control first and foremost at the top of the document; and for the sake of design, it should look good And I wrote an article talking about this type of thing, if anyone's interested:http://theletter.co.uk/longhand?id=1918In summary, the idea is provide the most important accessibility functions (like stylesheet-switcher) at the top of the document. Feedback would be appreciated. Cheers,BlairOn 30/06/06, Ben Buchanan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Can you claim WCAG 1.0 AAA rating if your preferred stylesheet doesn't have sufficient color contrast for low-vision users but instead you have a stylesheet switcher andproperly marked up alternate style sheets that do?I'd look at the practicality of the situation here. If someone with acontrast-related vision problem can't read the default version, howcan they read the site to find the alternate stylesheet in the first place? At the bare minimum the style switch features need to havesufficient contrast to be read by all users.I also think low contrast is bad for general users and not justdisabled or low vision users... good contrast can be viewed as a usability feature :)cheers,Ben- http://www.200ok.com.au/--- The future has arrived; it's just not--- evenly distributed. - William Gibson **The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help** -- Blair Millenhttp://theletter.co.ukhttp://doepud.co.uk **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
RE: [WSG] Access Keys and large sites
Well if no-one else is going to say it, then I will have to: Don't use Access Keys except on an Intranet site. IF you do a quick Google search for 'Access Keys' and 'Bad' you should find several articles which have researched the number of such keys that do not clash with a Browser, OS or AT function. If I remember correctly, there are two of them, and I'll give you a tenner myself if you can find either of them on your keyboard without looking! Mike Cole Kuryakin wrote: Hello All - I'm pretty new to the whole accessibility thing but I'm trying. The latest question mark that arose in my mind regards to access keys: since there's only 10 numeric keys (including 0) what does one do if you're building a site that exceeds 10 pages? The one I'm working on now looks like it's going to top-out at over 50 pages with some sections containing 2 different drill-down levels Food for thought: http://www.wats.ca/show.php?contentid=32 BTW Firefox in Linux has assigned the numeric keys to the tabs. Pressing Alt + 1 takes you to your first tab. Pressing Alt + 2 takes you to the second, and so on. Just FYI. Kat ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** winmail.dat
Re: [WSG] LInks Multi-language
SHould the link stay in the some language of page or in the language that gonna change? -- http://www.artideias.com Hi, i think that is better to put the links in its language (English, Español and so on) If i only speak Spanish and i'm in an English web page i will not know what Change to Spanish means. -- Carlos Rincón Sanchez [EMAIL PROTECTED] Neurotic, SCP - www.neuroticweb.com Tel: 938 492 028 | Fax: 938 403 568 C\Can Cabatx s/n 08520 Les Franqueses del Valles ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 AAA Rating
On 06/06/30 03:32 (GMT-0400) discusster apparently typed: http://theletter.co.uk/longhand?id=1918 Feedback would be appreciated. 1-Firefox and SeaMonkey here seem to be loading no stylesheet by default. 2-Normal vision users already have their default set to the size they prefer, and so don't appreciate your 80% font-size override making everything too small by 36%. http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/area80.html 3-Low vision users already have their default set to the size they prefer, and so don't appreciate your 130% font-size override making everything too big by 69%. http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/bigdefaults.html -- All have sinned fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] LInks Multi-language
Gaspar, on Friday, June 30, 2006 at 10:52 wsg@webstandardsgroup.org wrote: for me the only mean useful for this page it's teh 3 links but i thing it's better take retire this page, dont't u thing the same? Yes, definitly! My big question it's the in body i will tell what language or in the head but should I in link put In this case i am in the PT page the link to the version in english should be a href=# lang=en title=English versionChange to english/a or continue in portuguese a href=# title=Versão em InglêsMudar para Inglês/a First I would try to determine the preferred language of my users by analyzing the request-headers, hoping that the links to different languages won't be needed by anyone... But you should give the user a choice by placing such links anyway. From a user perspective it would be more useful to describe the link in the language of links destiny. If I were on your site and I couldn't understand Portuguese, I would definitely prefer a link with text in a language that I understand... Don't you agree? ;-) regards Martin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] LInks Multi-language
You may find this article helpful:http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200604/indicating_language_choice_flags_text_both_neither/ **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
RE: [WSG] LInks Multi-language
I agree. On language versions I've done, we've presented selections with either the language or country presented in the native language (and twice, if there are two languages in a country), so you'd easily be able to spot your own language in a listing. For example - would you recognise English written in Chinese? :) Frances Berriman http://www.fberriman.com -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Carlos Rincon Sanchez Sent: 30 June 2006 10:16 To: Web standards group Subject: Re: [WSG] LInks Multi-language SHould the link stay in the some language of page or in the language that gonna change? -- http://www.artideias.com Hi, i think that is better to put the links in its language (English, Español and so on) If i only speak Spanish and i'm in an English web page i will not know what Change to Spanish means. -- Carlos Rincón Sanchez [EMAIL PROTECTED] Neurotic, SCP - www.neuroticweb.com Tel: 938 492 028 | Fax: 938 403 568 C\Can Cabatx s/n 08520 Les Franqueses del Valles ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 AAA Rating
Firefox and SeaMonkey here seem to be loading no stylesheet by defaultStrange one... anyone else got this problem?Cheers,BlairOn 30/06/06, Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:On 06/06/30 03:32 (GMT-0400) discusster apparently typed: http://theletter.co.uk/longhand?id=1918 Feedback would be appreciated.1-Firefox and SeaMonkey here seem to be loading no stylesheet by default. 2-Normal vision users already have their default set to the size theyprefer, and so don't appreciate your 80% font-size override makingeverything too small by 36%. http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/area80.html3-Low vision users already have their default set to the size theyprefer, and so don't appreciate your 130% font-size override makingeverything too big by 69%. http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/bigdefaults.html--All have sinned fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409Felix Miata*** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/**The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help** -- Blair Millenhttp://theletter.co.ukhttp://doepud.co.uk **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
Re: [WSG] LInks Multi-language
On Fri, 30 Jun 2006 07:18 pm, Martin Heiden wrote: Gaspar, From a user perspective it would be more useful to describe the link in the language of links destiny. If I were on your site and I couldn't understand Portuguese, I would definitely prefer a link with text in a language that I understand... Don't you agree? ;-) I agree - another option is to use small icons that are flags of the nations associated with the destiny language - English uses UK/US flag (I've even seen this as a combined flag), German the German flag, French the French flag, etc. Most web users associate these flags with the correct language even if the linking text is in another language or they are from another country like Australia where the predominant language is English or French-Canadian use the French flag. -- Regards, Steve Bathurst Computer Solutions URL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile: 0407 224 251 _ ... (0) ... / / \ .. / / . ) .. V_/_ Linux Powered! Registered Linux User #355382 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] LInks Multi-language
On 6/30/06, Steve Olive [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree - another option is to use small icons that are flags of the nationsassociated with the destiny languageBut (as per the link I posted above) languages are spoken in more than one country. The name of the language, in that language, is the easiest way of communicating the language options you have. **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 AAA Rating - Accessibility Navbar
On 06/06/30 10:40 (GMT+0100) discusster apparently typed: On 30/06/06, Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 06/06/30 08:32 (GMT+0100) discusster apparently typed: http://theletter.co.uk/longhand?id=1918 Feedback would be appreciated. 1-Firefox and SeaMonkey here seem to be loading no stylesheet by default. Strange one... anyone else got this problem? The alternate stylesheets worked, but reloading went back to completely unstyled in both browsers. Now that problem is gone, replaced by defaulting to the mousetype from handheld.css. A: Top-posters who don't trim mailing list footers and .sigs. Q: What's the 2nd most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? A: Because it breaks the logical sequence of the discussion. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail? -- All have sinned fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 AAA Rating
perhaps it was just a moment of unstyled-ness before the loadThat's a relief, thanks Frances!BlairOn 30/06/06, Frances Berriman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It was a spot slow to load, but FF got your stylesheet, so perhaps it was just a moment of unstyled-ness before the load? I've found occasionally if a site is slow, FF gives up and doesn't display the sheet at all unless it's refreshed. Frances Berriman http://www.fberriman.com From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of discusster Sent: 30 June 2006 10:40 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 AAA Rating Firefox and SeaMonkey here seem to be loading no stylesheet by default Strange one... anyone else got this problem? Cheers, Blair On 30/06/06, Felix Miata [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 06/06/30 03:32 (GMT-0400) discusster apparently typed: http://theletter.co.uk/longhand?id=1918 Feedback would be appreciated. 1-Firefox and SeaMonkey here seem to be loading no stylesheet by default. 2-Normal vision users already have their default set to the size they prefer, and so don't appreciate your 80% font-size override making everything too small by 36%. http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/area80.html 3-Low vision users already have their default set to the size they prefer, and so don't appreciate your 130% font-size override making everything too big by 69%. http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/bigdefaults.html -- All have sinned fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata*** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ ** The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Blair Millen http://theletter.co.uk http://doepud.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** __ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email __ **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Blair Millenhttp://theletter.co.ukhttp://doepud.co.uk **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 AAA Rating
Felix Miata wrote: http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/bigdefaults.html can you explain the logic of separating this content into two columns that are not continuous down the page, but short sections across the page. I was reading down the left hand column and wondering why it kept jumping... ;o) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 AAA Rating
Firefox and SeaMonkey here seem to be loading no stylesheet by default Strange one... anyone else got this problem? I've only seen it dressed Blair... looks good to me. Firefox 1.0.7 Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG CMS] Rob Griffin is out of the office.
I will be out of the office starting 06/29/2006 and will not return until 07/04/2006. Im traveling and out of the office Thursday and Friday June 29th and 30th, but will be checking voice and email. Monday and Tuesday our offices are closed for the 4th. Ill be back in the office on Wednesday July 5th. Cheers, rob * The CMS discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ *
Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 AAA Rating - Accessibility Navbar
-- Tom Livingston | Senior Multimedia Artist | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com Internet Explorer 6 is crap. My apologies to the IE7 team for the above signature. That was an internal/inside joke, never meant to be seen in the wild... -- Tom Livingston | Senior Multimedia Artist | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 AAA Rating
I also think low contrast is bad for general users and not just disabled or low vision users... good contrast can be viewed as a usability feature :) Or not ;) I personally dislike high contrast as it strains my eyes more than an overall combination with not that sharp/aggressive/tense difference. On the other hand I can live with switching *to* lo contrast variation or modify it in my UA (see below). In summary, the idea is provide the most important accessibility functions (like stylesheet-switcher) at the top of the document. Why? (I'm playing devil's advocate now for a while...) Is it really the most important feature in the design to accomplish the most important goals of most users? Thus it should be one of the most important functions/tools/goals of the web site? I don't think so. I think the ball is on the side of browser vendors. This should be UI/UA thing, not a job for the website itself. -- Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 AAA Rating
Jan Brasna wrote: I think the ball is on the side of browser vendors. This should be UI/UA thing, not a job for the website itself. Absolutely! And lets add a page-zoom (Like Opera) as a must for ALL browsers . . . -- Best Regards, Bob McClelland Cornwall (UK) www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 AAA Rating
On 06/06/30 18:59 (GMT+0100) Designer apparently typed: Jan Brasna wrote: I think the ball is on the side of browser vendors. This should be UI/UA thing, not a job for the website itself. Absolutely! And lets add a page-zoom (Like Opera) as a must for ALL browsers . . . An still open enhancement request was filed to include this in Gecko over 7 years ago: https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4821 Zoom functions are designed primarily as user defense mechanisms to be used against px dimensioned pages and pages that disregard or override user settings. They are rarely necessary on flexible dimensioned pages that respect user preferences. It's unfortunate that both current and proposed versions of WCAG omit coverage of this fundamental relationship between web design and accessibility. -- All have sinned fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 AAA Rating
An still open enhancement request was filed to include this ... We all know how it's like with the browsers today :/ Zoom functions are designed primarily as user defense mechanisms Sorry Felix, but this is really nonsense. It is made for what it should do - making the whole site more legible/bigger if you need to, with keeping all the proportions correct when scaling all elements. Nowadays there are still many raster elements on the pages that can't be sized in text dimensions (what is by the way a bit weird if you think about it) and it is *the task of the UA to arrange the output with the correct ratios, be it higher DPI, small screen, enlarged page* etc. ... Does it make sense? -- Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] WCAG 1.0 AAA Rating
On 06/06/30 21:43 (GMT+0200) Jan Brasna apparently typed: Felix Miata wrote: Zoom functions are designed primarily as user defense mechanisms Sorry Felix, but this is really nonsense. Necessary nonsense required as a result of virtually universal poor web page design. A web browser viewport is a naturally fluid and adaptable space that most designers refuse to or don't know to embrace. Ordinary users of pages that fully embrace fluid nature rarely find reason to try to change those pages via browser controls. Without the ubiquity of print pages hosted on the web the browser makers wouldn't have had motivation to provide zoom function. It is made for what it should do - making the whole site more legible/bigger if you need to, Exactly, and it wouldn't be necessary if most web pages were naturally fluid web designs rather than artificially constrained print designs hosted on the web. with keeping all the proportions correct when scaling all elements. Nowadays there are still many raster elements on the pages that can't be sized in text dimensions (what is by the way a bit weird if you think about it) and it is *the task of the UA to arrange the output with the correct ratios, be it higher DPI, small screen, enlarged page* etc. ... In case you've missed it, I've offered as example pages that have a grand total of 0 elements sized in px or absolute units. They work fine no matter your reasonable combination of viewport size and default text size or zoom level, reasonable being defined as comfortably long enough line lengths fitting in the available width of the viewport. http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/indexx.html http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/auth/Sites/dlviolin.html http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/bbcSS.html Pages besides the above on http://www.cssliquid.com/ and elsewhere confirm artificial size constraints aren't necessary. Em is a proportional unit that works when it is permitted to. Does it make sense? As long as I've been using them browsers have been capable of rendering images at whatever size the HTML (and later CSS) has dictated. That the quality of doing same may or not be desirable with deviations from intrinsic image size is an independant issue. -- All have sinned fall short of the glory of God. Romans 3:23 NIV Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 Felix Miata *** http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Access Keys and large sites
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well if no-one else is going to say it, then I will have to: Don't use Access Keys except on an Intranet site. And why would an intranet warrant different treatment from any other web content? P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] LInks Multi-language
Steve Olive wrote: I agree - another option is to use small icons that are flags of the nations associated with the destiny language Flags are not a good indicator for language, as certain countries can be multi-lingual, and the same language can be spoken in a variety of countries (e.g. UK/US, why give preference of one over the other?). I seem to recall a recent article about this not so long ago, but I'm too tired to hunt for it... P -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] LInks Multi-language
too tired to hunt for it... ... but have slaves to that for me ;) Servez-vous: http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/flags.html http://www.useit.com/alertbox/flagproblem.html http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200604/indicating_language_choice_flags_text_both_neither/ http://www.w3.org/TR/i18n-html-tech-lang/#ri20040808.173208643 http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200606/indicating_language_choice_on_the_web/ -- Jan Brasna :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com | www.wdnews.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
