[WSG] Hyperlinks - best practice
Hi all Which of the following two is a better practice of including hyperlinks on pages: Including hyperlinks in the paragraphs: Eg. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Vivamus nisl lorem, ullamcorper vitae, interdum et, venenatis at, pede. Vivamus risus nunc, varius eu, dictum fermentum, rutrum a, massa. OR Displaying a list at the end of the paragraph: Eg. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Vivamus nisl lorem, ullamcorper vitae, interdum et, venenatis at, pede. Vivamus risus nunc, varius eu, dictum fermentum, rutrum a, massa. Dolor Adipiscing Vivamus Ullamcorper fermentum Some of my colleagues are worried about the way screen readers read links, and they would like me to point them to a resource that gives a definitive answer if there is such thing. Regards Bojana Global Summit 2006: Technology Connected Futures -- 17-19 October, Sydney, Australia. Visit our website http://globalsummit.educationau.edu.au for further details. IMPORTANT: This e-mail, including any attachments, may contain private or confidential information. If you think you may not be the intended recipient, or if you have received this e-mail in error, please contact the sender immediately and delete all copies of this e-mail. If you are not the intended recipient, you must not reproduce any part of this e-mail or disclose its contents to any other party. This email represents the views of the individual sender, which do not necessarily reflect those of education.au limited except where the sender expressly states otherwise. It is your responsibility to scan this email and any files transmitted with it for viruses or any other defects. education.au limited will not be liable for any loss, damage or consequence caused directly or indirectly by this email. **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
Re: [WSG] Hyperlinks - best practice
On 8/3/06, Bojana Lalic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which of the following two is a better practice of including hyperlinks on pages: Better practice in which sense - just accessibility, or usability as well? From an accessibility pov, it is better to include the links inline; screenreaders will announce that the text is a link, and may also (depending on settings) read out the title text as well/instead of the link text. Users can also choose to just read out all the links on the page, so ensure that the actual text of the link is descriptive. Doing it this way makes coding a hell of a lot easier too, as if you put the links as footnotes you need to provide some way for screenreaders to jump from the text to the footnote link and back again to where they were. From a usability pov however, it may be better to provide the links in a 'related reading' sidebar, preferably on the right as that is where users expect non-internal navigation items to be found. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tracking print.css to detemine printed pages
On 8/3/06, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just checking in Firefox with the LiveHTTPHeaders extension, it looks like FF downloads the print.css when the page is loaded, not when you hit print or print preview. I'll go out on a limb and say that this behaviour may well be common in other browsers as well...so doing stats based on the hits to that file seems like a no go. I wonder whether you could do something with an image that is only used during printing, for example specifying a background-image in print.css that is not used normally? Do browsers parse stylesheets for irrelevant media and load images from them? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New window - Thickbox - iFrames - what to do?
Maybe a frameset?!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Frameset//EN http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-frameset.dtd DazOn 03/08/06, Rachel May [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi everyone, I'd love to hear opinions on what is the best option to take. I have an application where it is necessary to preview webpages in 3 different areas - one of them is to preview to choose the content of the page, one is to preview the stylesheet used, and the third is to preview the two combined.These are totally separate webpages, each with their own css rules and files. Currently because we have been building the app these are just taken care of by nasty wee _blanks.However I really do want to find a solution for these situations without opening a whole new window. I tried Thickbox, however it doesn't work as this is more for little bits of HTML rather than whole pages with their own stylesheets. I would love this to work as I think this is the nicest to use from a user point of view. iframes would allow me to have a separate page in an existing page with their own styles and everything - however I have never used them and I am unaware of accessibility on this and if it has any other implications?? Any ideas, recommendations or takes on this would be great.I really want to find the best solution, so open to ideas. Thanks, Rach ** The discussion list forhttp://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list getting help ** **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
Re: [WSG] Making Semantically Correct Instructions with Images in XHTML
Maybe you could use a label tag - sounds analgous to the radio button / label tag association? label for=imageidlabel text/label Just a thought... Ken Vlad Alexander (XStandard) wrote: Hi Zachary, The reference to see the image at left is not a good idea since there is no left or right when formatting is removed. So, I thought about adding some text around the image, figure 1 for example, and then somehow referencing for linking to that in the text. There is no need for extra text. Make Figure 1 part of the image and also part of the image alt text. So the alt text could read Figure 1: image of a person sitting in front of a computer. Then refer to the image inside the paragraph like this: As show in Figure 1, . Regards, -Vlad http://xstandard.com XStandard XHTML (Strict or 1.1) WYSIWYG Editor Original Message From: Zachary Hopkins Date: 8/2/2006 1:48 PM Hello all! I'm working on a web page right now that contains a lot of different guides and tutorials for people who ask me the same questions a lot (eg, How do run an antivirus scan?; How do I check for spyware?; How do it set _ up?; etc...). Right now, the instructions are separated into different paragraphs (separate p/p for each), and then for some paragraphs, there is a relevant image, included before the paragraph, and when styles are applied, the image is left floated in the paragraph. In the paragraph, I always write, see the image at left or something like that. But, given the way different browsers display stuff, or taking into account any user-styles that may get applied, I think I need a better way to associate each image with the individual step it applies to. So, I thought about adding some text around the image, figure 1 for example, and then somehow referencing for linking to that in the text. What do you all think? Is there a right way to do this or is it just not that important? Thanks for your assistance! --Zachary ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE7 bug?
Andrew Ingram wrote: The people who made the code originally were using left: -999em to hide the menu, the reasoning was so that screen-readers could still access them (as opposed to display: none), acting on a hunch I switched to the display: none method and everything started working. Hm, interesting. Did you try -999px? The problem may lie with the browser calculating (or not) what -999em actually is? N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] URL Safari Check
2006/8/3, Ron Jonk [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Look great on home page , the other page have a wider navigation with spaces between the nav items, and I see a white block under the main images sticking outside on the right sideOn Aug 1, 2006, at 2:47 AM, NickGleitzman wrote: Same thing here, using Safari 2.0.4 on osx Tiger. I don't have time to check your code right now. Maybe when I get back home (20:00 GMT +1) if it's still not resolved. BTW, I -really- like your style ;) **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
Re: [WSG] IE7 bug?
Andrew Ingram wrote: So I added in another rule that changed the background color of the element with the drop-down hover and suddenly everything started working, take the rule out and it stopped. I think you have hit the old IE-bug on CSS popups... http://www.quirksmode.org/css/ie6_purecsspopups.html Don't think that's fixed in IE7. Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Hi, I'm new here!
Hey Marissa On 03/08/2006, at 1:18 AM, Marissa Manzino wrote: Hello everyone, My name is Marissa Manzino. I recently signed up to this site and wanted to introduce myself. I hope that you are having a wonderful day! Marissa ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Peter Dominic Ryan | raycity* : new media solutions : proven [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://raycity.com | mb: 0419 229 738 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Table Attributes and CSS
Hi, Designing with Web Standards, is saving some painful flash backs to the mercenary approach of web design days past. Although the first step backwards is minimal, it inspired understanding of clean use of tables. Thanks for the assistance. CK On Aug 2, 2006, at 9:20 PM, Rachel May wrote: Designing with Web Standards book by Jeffery Zeldman, then at least you will have a trim table layout and not crazily nested tables like we used to build back in the day!! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Tracking print.css to detemine printed pages
While on the surface that looks like a good solution, you have to remember that by default browsers won't print any backgrounds (colors or images) so the image you set as a background in the print.css file may never get loaded. Testing is certainly required as that info is scraped from the dusty shelves at the back of my brain :0) Chris -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Pennell Sent: 03 August 2006 08:45 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Tracking print.css to detemine printed pages On 8/3/06, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Just checking in Firefox with the LiveHTTPHeaders extension, it looks like FF downloads the print.css when the page is loaded, not when you hit print or print preview. I'll go out on a limb and say that this behaviour may well be common in other browsers as well...so doing stats based on the hits to that file seems like a no go. I wonder whether you could do something with an image that is only used during printing, for example specifying a background-image in print.css that is not used normally? Do browsers parse stylesheets for irrelevant media and load images from them? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tracking print.css to detemine printed pages
On 8/3/06, Chris Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While on the surface that looks like a good solution, you have to remember that by default browsers won't print any backgrounds (colors or images) so the image you set as a background in the print.css file may never get loaded. My guess would be that images are loaded regardless of whether the print settings are set to print background images, same as they are for hidden or display: none elements. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] When to Nest TB
Hi,
Still attempting to unlearn in the best possible manner. In the
following code an attempt at setting the columns different heights,
simply defaulted to the largest value. Would this be better solved
with rowspan attribute or a nested table.
This is an exercise.
CK
/*CODE*/
?xml version=1.0 encoding=utf-8?
!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-transitional.dtd;
html xmlns=http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml; xml:lang=en lang=en
head
meta http-equiv=content-type content=text/html; charset=utf-8 /
title2Col_2/title
style type=text/css media=screen
body{font: 1em/1.5em Georgia,'Times New Roman',Times,'Bookman Old
Style','Hoefler Text',Serif;}
table#container{width: 750px; margin: 0 auto; border: 1px solid black;}
table td{padding: 0; border-width: 0; vertical-align:top; border:
1px solid black;}
table td#nav_col{height: 250px;}
table td#content_col{height: 150px;}
thead, tfoot{text-align: center;}
/style
/head
body
table summary=2column id=container
theadtrtd colspan=2Header Info/td/tr/thead
tfoottrtd colspan=2Footer Info/td/tr/tfoot
tbody
trtd id=nav_colCol_01/tdtd id=content_colCol_02/td/tr
/tbody
/table
/body
/html
/*END CODE*/
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Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
I agree with all of this. You could probably find an old classic iMac on eBay or Craigslist for not a wicked lot of money. Cheers, Dani ~~ Dani Nordin the zen kitchen Graphic and web design with a touch of green 1 Fitchburg Street, B160 Somerville, MA 02143 401.787.5178 mobile See a full portfolio and sign up for our monthly newsletterthoughts on design, life, food and other trivialitiesat http://www.tzk-design.com Read our notes from the zen kitchenweekly(ish) articles on design, the environment, and life as a business owner - at http://zenkitchen.blogspot.com On 8/3/06 1:07 AM, Geoff Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SunUp wrote: It's the Mac problem. There's no way my department's budget will extend to purchasing an old Mac just for testing purposes, and even if that happened, I'd then have a fight on my hands with our IT department about network points and security issues. If I was in that situation, I would either: * refuse to support Macs and refer any compaints to the boss and the IT department. * find a friend or collegue with Mac and ask them for help * buy a cheap iMac and test at home or * ask this list for help (send us the URL!) Cheers, Geoff ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
On 8/2/06 11:57 PM, SunUp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'd then have a fight on my hands with our IT department about network points and security issues. Security issues? From a Mac?? If they can maintain security with Windows workstations, they don't need to worry about adding a Mac -- Tom Livingston | Senior Multimedia Artist | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] URL Safari Check
Title: Re: [WSG] URL Safari Check Hi there, A few things Im noticing: ~ Home, Products link doesnt work. ~ Company Info, Conact, Links link leads to a page that just has a header and a white DIV thats offset about 30px to the left of the border. ~ Im not sure if this is intentional, but on the interior pages, the navigation breaks and extends on either side of the shadowed bounds of the page. ~ The markup for the nav isnt very semantically done; you could achieve similar results purely using CSS and lists, along with a small bit of _javascript_. Look on ALA for an article called Suckerfish Dropdowns. Cheers, Dani ~~ Dani Nordin the zen kitchen Graphic and web design with a touch of green 1 Fitchburg Street, B160 Somerville, MA 02143 401.787.5178 mobile See a full portfolio and sign up for our monthly newsletterthoughts on design, life, food and other trivialitiesat http://www.tzk-design.com Read our notes from the zen kitchenweekly(ish) articles on design, the environment, and life as a business owner - at http://zenkitchen.blogspot.com On 8/3/06 1:32 AM, Ron Jonk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Look great on home page , the other page have a wider navigation with spaces between the nav items, and I see a white block under the main images sticking outside on the right side On Aug 1, 2006, at 2:47 AM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: Christian Fagan wrote: Could I please get a Safari check on the following URL: http://www.waterwisetanks.com/index2.html Looks fine on v1.3.2/OSX10.3.9 ...apart from the spelling of 'avaialable'... N ___ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
On 8/3/06, Geoff Pack [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: SunUp wrote: It's the Mac problem. There's no way my department's budget will extend to purchasing an old Mac just for testing purposes, If I was in that situation, I would either: * refuse to support Macs and refer any compaints to the boss and the IT department. Amen to that. There's no reason to be forced to support hardware it your department won't make allowances for testing on it. If they want you to support it, they need to make that possible. -- Philip http://NikitaTheSpider.com/ Whole-site HTML validation, link checking and more ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Table Attributes and CSS
I was very lucky that I started building sites back in 2003. Until I read that book in about 2005, I had decided that I would rather cut off my hands than deal with building a website. Now, I actually kinda like web design. Jeffrey Zeldman is one of my personal rock gods. Dani ~~ Dani Nordin the zen kitchen Graphic and web design with a touch of green 1 Fitchburg Street, B160 Somerville, MA 02143 401.787.5178 mobile See a full portfolio and sign up for our monthly newsletterthoughts on design, life, food and other trivialitiesat http://www.tzk-design.com Read our notes from the zen kitchenweekly(ish) articles on design, the environment, and life as a business owner - at http://zenkitchen.blogspot.com On 8/3/06 6:41 AM, CK [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Designing with Web Standards, is saving some painful flash backs to the mercenary approach of web design days past. Although the first step backwards is minimal, it inspired understanding of clean use of tables. Thanks for the assistance. CK On Aug 2, 2006, at 9:20 PM, Rachel May wrote: Designing with Web Standards book by Jeffery Zeldman, then at least you will have a trim table layout and not crazily nested tables like we used to build back in the day!! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Tracking print.css to detemine printed pages
Perhaps this is one of those browser default CSS issues we've been hearing about recently, setting all backgrounds in the print media to 'none'. If anyone has the time to do some testing (unfortunately I don't at the moment) I'd really like to see the results. Chris -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew Pennell Sent: 03 August 2006 12:45 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Tracking print.css to detemine printed pages On 8/3/06, Chris Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: While on the surface that looks like a good solution, you have to remember that by default browsers won't print any backgrounds (colors or images) so the image you set as a background in the print.css file may never get loaded. My guess would be that images are loaded regardless of whether the print settings are set to print background images, same as they are for hidden or display: none elements. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] New window - Thickbox - iFrames - what to do?
On 8/3/06, Rachel May [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: iframes would allow me to have a separate page in an existing page with their own styles and everything - however I have never used them and I am unaware of accessibility on this and if it has any other implications?? Have a look at the preview feature in Wordpress 2.0+, it does exactly what you are looking for and I'm pretty sure it uses an iFrame. [1] http://wordpress.org/ -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Site check and solution needed.
Putting the finishing touches on my first standards compliant dynamic e-commerce website and would like a check in safari from those who are capable. Thanks in advance! Also, I am having a few minor issues with IE6 (of course) in regards to columns generated by floated elements. The page(s) in question is located http://www.pacetools.com/Category/Other_Items and you may navigate to other category/product pages from there; although, if you navigate to the index you will not be able to return to the dynamic site as it is not live to the public yet. As you can see, the page looks great in any resolution with FF, Opera, and IE7 but IE6 does not display the lower 120px of the border to the left of the product images. Also, if your resolution is greater than 1500px in width (in order to view 3 columns of products) IE6 will not display 3 columns, but will actually pull the h2 from below up beside the category links (take a look, its hard to explain). I have tried to clear:left the h2 to no avail since the form on the far left is floated as well. Any help on the above and criticism is greatly appreciated. Thanks! Joseph Bernhardt Web Applications Developer Incomprehensibilities, Inc. 406.587.4875 - Office 406.570.2004 - Cellular [EMAIL PROTECTED] **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
Re: [WSG] Hyperlinks - best practice
Yap in theparagraphs and like, if it's part of text, i think is the right way the hipertext is for that way, i dont understand the reason to take the context around of link. You have a text then appear a term and i could see the meaning or some explanation for that term. Even in screen reader or even in print. Like me i dont like much to read big texts in screen sow some of them i print and i see that some links are importants to see what they are, to understand better the word and why the author use that word. Many times i have to get back to online text to follow the link. Sow a list of links ( just in print mode ) in the footer of text would help , but without taking of the links from paragraph. Or like maujor.com do, when you print the link adress came in front fo link. Summarizing i thing taking the link from paragraph only confuse user. If it was a paragraph of 2 3 lines, after that a list item, naaa Or 100 line after that a list of what, 1, 2 or 100 links... naaa i think the best way is not confuse users. Cheers, Gaspar On 03/08/06, Matthew Pennell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 8/3/06, Bojana Lalic [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which of the following two is a better practice of including hyperlinks on pages: Better practice in which sense - just accessibility, or usability as well? From an accessibility pov, it is better to include the links inline; screenreaders will announce that the text is a link, and may also (depending on settings) read out the title text as well/instead of the link text. Users can also choose to just read out all the links on the page, so ensure that the actual text of the link is descriptive. Doing it this way makes coding a hell of a lot easier too, as if you put the links as footnotes you need to provide some way for screenreaders to jump from the text to the footnote link and back again to where they were. From a usability pov however, it may be better to provide the links in a 'related reading' sidebar, preferably on the right as that is where users expect non-internal navigation items to be found. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Make it simple for the people -- http://www.artideias.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
Sunny wrote:
I know how to prevent v.4 browsers from getting my styles, but
how do I stop IE5/Mac from getting them?? All I know how to do is
to give them
something different, not how to exclude them entirely.
On Thu, 3 Aug 2006 13:54:46 +1000, Geoff Pack replied:
see: http://centricle.com/ref/css/filters/
[EMAIL PROTECTED] url('styles.css'); /* excludes NS4, Mac IE5 */
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 'styles.css'; /* excludes NS4, IE4, Mac IE5 */
You may also want to give some styles to that browser alone.
I believe that this does it:
@import (ie5mac.css)
Cordially, David.
--
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[WSG] Semantic usage of th
I recently ran into a project which required me to use a table to display relationships and comparisons between data. Say for example we are comparing nutritional content of various foods: Food Type Fat Calories Cholesterol Burger 15g 650 150mg Fish 2g 300 200mg Corn 3g 200 50mg I understand the th tag should be used on the items in the top row, but what about the row on the left? Are they also considered a header of the row? If so, wouldnt Food Type be a header of a header? What do you guys think? Joseph Bernhardt Web Applications Developer Incomprehensibilities, Inc. 406.587.4875 - Office 406.570.2004 - Cellular [EMAIL PROTECTED] **The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
[WSG] Css menu (not navigation)
Hi, I remember seeing a sample of a elastic tableless menu for a restaurant looking something like this Item description.price 123 Item description.price 456 Item description.price 789 If anyone knows where this sample is located or have an idea how to accomplish this I would love to hear about it. Thanks -- Med venlig hilsen/Best regards Kim Kruse - http://www.mouseriders.dk http://www.geekministry.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Semantic usage of th
Joe wrote: I recently ran into a project which required me to use a table to display relationships and comparisons between data. Say for example we are comparing nutritional content of various foods: Food Type Fat Calories Cholesterol Burger 15g 650 150mg Fish 2g 300 200mg Corn 3g 200 50mg I understand the th tag should be used on the items in the top row, but what about the row on the left? Are they also considered a header of the row? If so, wouldn’t ‘Food Type’ be a header of a header? What do you guys think? Use the scope attribute to indicate whether the th is attached to either. Examples: th scope=colFat/th - OR - th scope=rowBurger/th On the cell with Food Type, not sure - someone will tell you though. My guess would be: th scope=colFood Type/th since it is describing the items below it. -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Web Designer / Developer tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 note:Whatever your project, feel free to call or email me to chat about it. I'm always happy to advise you on any inquiries, make suggestions and provide you a quote. x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Semantic usage of th
At 10:09 AM 8/3/2006, Joe wrote: I understand the th tag should be used on the items in the top row, but what about the row on the left? Are they also considered a header of the row? If so, wouldn't 'Food Type' be a header of a header? What do you guys think? More to the point, what do the authors of the HTML specification think? Please read the spec, it's quite illuminating for anyone attempting website development. HTML 4.01 Specification 11 Tables http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/tables.html Notice, in various examples on this page, mid-table rows that begin trth, such as: TABLE border=1 summary=This table gives some statistics about fruit flies: average height and weight, and percentage with red eyes (for both males and females). CAPTIONEMA test table with merged cells/EM/CAPTION TRTH rowspan=2TH colspan=2Average TH rowspan=2RedBReyes TRTHheightTHweight TRTHMalesTD1.9TD0.003TD40% TRTHFemalesTD1.7TD0.002TD43% /TABLE So to answer your question, TH table header cells are good for both column heads and row heads. Regards, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Semantic usage of th
Thank you for your comments, they have helped tremendously. Joe ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Css menu (not navigation)
Hi Kim, Here's a nice use of definition lists to style a menu: How to style a restaurant menu with CSS http://web-graphics.com/mtarchive/001622.php It looks like there's also some microformat menu activity going on at http://microformats.org/ . Cheers, Janette --- Kim Kruse [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I remember seeing a sample of a elastic tableless menu for a restaurant looking something like this Item description.price 123 Item description.price 456 Item description.price 789 If anyone knows where this sample is located or have an idea how to accomplish this I would love to hear about it. Thanks -- Med venlig hilsen/Best regards Kim Kruse - http://www.mouseriders.dk http://www.geekministry.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] International Layout in CSS
I was working on a pro bono Chinese site and is asked to layout a
certain section text vertically, read from right to left - this is
the old format which is still be used in Taiwan for books. My first
reaction is it can't be done practically, for CSS playground maybe,
but I am told I can use layout-flow: vertical-ideographic. I never
heard of this until today, so I did a search on google and paid a
visit to W3C. Holy moly! there really has layout-flow: vertical-
ideographic, so I did a simple test, but it doesn't work.
Browser tested: Safari and Firefox.
What did I missing?
I simply add an id
#vert {layout-flow:vertical-ideographic; float: right; width: 200px;
height: 300px}
According to this page:
http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/WD-i18n-format-19990127/
Is it still a working draft that no browser will support?
Thanks!
tee
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RE: [WSG] New window - Thickbox - iFrames - what to do?
Thanks for the suggestions. I've found Greybox Redux which does what I like, nice and unobtrusive, and small file size - yay! Just like lightbox/thickbox but I can open a separate page, css files and stuff. :) Rach -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya Sent: Friday, 4 August 2006 2:45 a.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] New window - Thickbox - iFrames - what to do? On 8/3/06, Rachel May [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: iframes would allow me to have a separate page in an existing page with their own styles and everything - however I have never used them and I am unaware of accessibility on this and if it has any other implications?? Have a look at the preview feature in Wordpress 2.0+, it does exactly what you are looking for and I'm pretty sure it uses an iFrame. [1] http://wordpress.org/ -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
* refuse to support Macs and refer any compaints to the boss and the IT department. Amen to that. There's no reason to be forced to support hardware it your department won't make allowances for testing on it. If they want you to support it, they need to make that possible. They couldn't care less. I'M the one trying to do The Right Thing and support what I can, but they don't understand and have no desire to understand about browser support. They support IE, that's it, and that's all they care about. I've had an enormous struggle getting our department permission to use Firefox, and the rest of the staff here (3000-odd people) don't have a choice because the Firefox site is banned. I feel badly that I can't do what I know I should be doing. As of today, IE5/Mac users will get no styles at all when they view our site. That's all I can do, and I guess it's better than it being totally broken. sunny(fed-up-with-it) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] International Layout in CSS
Vertical text layout will be a feature of CSS3
(http://www.w3.org/TR/css3-text/).
Microsoft ages ago played with vertical text for Han Ideographs in
Internet Explorer 5.5 ( I haven't played with it in more recent
versions). Have a look at
http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/default.asp?url=/library/en-us/dnie55/html/verticaltext.asp
for details.
Most likely the current implementation by Microsoft will not match up
with what CSS3 will do.
Until (and if) CSS3 is widely implemented, I'd steer away from using
vertical text.
The key difference between IEs implementation and CSS3 is the concept of
block progression. IE IE 5.5 implementation was only designed for one
scenario (Han ideographs). Doesn't take account of other writing scripts
that use vertical layout, but different progression, e.g. Mongolian.
Richard Ishida (W3C) has given presentations on what CSS3 will have in
the way of internationalization features. Have a look at
http://www.w3.org/International/tutorials/css3-text/
Andrew
Tee G. Peng wrote:
I was working on a pro bono Chinese site and is asked to layout a
certain section text vertically, read from right to left - this is the
old format which is still be used in Taiwan for books. My first
reaction is it can't be done practically, for CSS playground maybe, but
I am told I can use layout-flow: vertical-ideographic. I never heard
of this until today, so I did a search on google and paid a visit to
W3C. Holy moly! there really has layout-flow: vertical- ideographic, so
I did a simple test, but it doesn't work.
Browser tested: Safari and Firefox.
What did I missing?
I simply add an id
#vert {layout-flow:vertical-ideographic; float: right; width: 200px;
height: 300px}
According to this page:
http://www.w3.org/TR/1999/WD-i18n-format-19990127/
Is it still a working draft that no browser will support?
Thanks!
tee
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Andrew Cunningham
Research and Development Coordinator
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State Library of Victoria
328 Swanston Street
Melbourne VIC 3000
Australia
andrewc+AEA-vicnet.net.au
Ph. 3-8664-7430
Fax: 3-9639-2175
http://www.openroad.net.au/
http://www.libraries.vic.gov.au/
http://www.vicnet.net.au/
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Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
On 8/3/06, SunUp [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * refuse to support Macs and refer any compaints to the boss and the IT department. Amen to that. There's no reason to be forced to support hardware it your department won't make allowances for testing on it. If they want you to support it, they need to make that possible. They couldn't care less. I'M the one trying to do The Right Thing and support what I can, but they don't understand and have no desire to understand about browser support. They support IE, that's it, and that's all they care about. I've had an enormous struggle getting our department permission to use Firefox, and the rest of the staff here (3000-odd people) don't have a choice because the Firefox site is banned. I feel badly that I can't do what I know I should be doing. As of today, IE5/Mac users will get no styles at all when they view our site. That's all I can do, and I guess it's better than it being totally broken. Yes, it's easy for me to talk, isn't it? Give me your bosses phone number, I'll call up and straighten things out. ;) I salute your commitment to Doing the Right Thing and, in short, I think you're doing it. -- Philip http://NikitaTheSpider.com/ Whole-site HTML validation, link checking and more ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats)
SunUp wrote: * refuse to support Macs and refer any compaints to the boss and the IT department. Amen to that. There's no reason to be forced to support hardware it your department won't make allowances for testing on it. If they want you to support it, they need to make that possible. They couldn't care less. I'M the one trying to do The Right Thing and support what I can, but they don't understand and have no desire to understand about browser support. They support IE, that's it, and that's all they care about. That's a head-in-the-sand attitude that is disturbingly widespread. The MS marketing machine has done an astonishingly successful job of convincing a significant proportion of the world that 'This is a PC, this is what it does. Don't think; just use it as it is.' It's understandable to get this attitude from home users who don't know better, but in a business environment it's just plain crazy. It's like opening a retail shop and then barring anyone who chooses to wear red socks from entering. Why would you willingly and knowingly ignore *any* source of potential business? I think it's an important part of our job as designers/developers to educate out clients, bosses, and site visitors about the medium. After all, whether we're freelancers or employees, aren't we hired because we know more about this stuff than the person hiring us? I *always* include, at the preproduction stage of a project, a clear explanation to the client that their site will NOT look the same to all of their visitors, and I show them samples of previous sites to illustrate the kind of (usually minor) variations they might expect - including sparsely or unstyled versions in older browsers. You need to find someone in management who cares enough about their business to allow you to reach the largest number of potential customers possible, and explain carefully and simply that their IE-only approach is hurting their business. If you can't, frankly, you should give careful thought to whether these are people that you want to work with long-term. Easy to say, I know, but you'll discover, eventually, that there's a lot of power in saying no - and you'll certainly sleep better at night. As a freelance, I'm now (thankfully) able to choose who I work with. If they get what I do, fine. If they don't, and they resist my approach as your bosses appear to be doing, I Just Walk Away. Some people just refuse to be educated, even if it's to their detriment. I've had an enormous struggle getting our department permission to use Firefox, and the rest of the staff here (3000-odd people) don't have a choice because the Firefox site is banned. Banned?! What for? What kind of nazis *are* these people? Is this some kind of perceived security issue? And when you say the FF site, do you mean using FF as a browser? I feel badly that I can't do what I know I should be doing. As of today, IE5/Mac users will get no styles at all when they view our site. That's all I can do, and I guess it's better than it being totally broken. It certainly is, but it's not *all* you can do. If you track back through this thread, you'll see that my original suggestion was to serve IE5Mac typographic styles but not layout styles - you can still make a web page that looks a whole lot nicer than a completely unstyled one; you just have to check that your content still works OK when it's delivered in linear fashion. sunny(fed-up-with-it) Don't be; it's a learning experience for you too - embrace it! And as dealing with and educating bosses/clients is probably drifting a bit OT for this list (although I think the concept of 'selling' Standards is perfectly relevant), feel free to contact me offlist if you'd like to continue the discussion. N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Support for Macs and Firefox (was Support for IE5/Mac?)
Seeing as we're on a big rant here I might as well add my 2c! Today I went to New Zealand's National Museum website - Te Papa. I searched for the information I was after (about native spiders) and came across the content and then - woah. The layout was all wrong (content was at bottom of the page) and all the content was overlapping so I couldn't even read it. This is a CSS driven site so I emailed them, let them know of the problem, because it shouldn't be too hard to fix. The reply I got said: Unfortunately, the website is not designed to work with Safari, Firefox or Mozilla browser technology. This website is a government site - therefore should be support accessibility and web guidelines - and is our national museum and icon... -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Gleitzman Sent: Friday, 4 August 2006 1:18 p.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats) SunUp wrote: * refuse to support Macs and refer any compaints to the boss and the IT department. Amen to that. There's no reason to be forced to support hardware it your department won't make allowances for testing on it. If they want you to support it, they need to make that possible. They couldn't care less. I'M the one trying to do The Right Thing and support what I can, but they don't understand and have no desire to understand about browser support. They support IE, that's it, and that's all they care about. That's a head-in-the-sand attitude that is disturbingly widespread. The MS marketing machine has done an astonishingly successful job of convincing a significant proportion of the world that 'This is a PC, this is what it does. Don't think; just use it as it is.' It's understandable to get this attitude from home users who don't know better, but in a business environment it's just plain crazy. It's like opening a retail shop and then barring anyone who chooses to wear red socks from entering. Why would you willingly and knowingly ignore *any* source of potential business? I think it's an important part of our job as designers/developers to educate out clients, bosses, and site visitors about the medium. After all, whether we're freelancers or employees, aren't we hired because we know more about this stuff than the person hiring us? I *always* include, at the preproduction stage of a project, a clear explanation to the client that their site will NOT look the same to all of their visitors, and I show them samples of previous sites to illustrate the kind of (usually minor) variations they might expect - including sparsely or unstyled versions in older browsers. You need to find someone in management who cares enough about their business to allow you to reach the largest number of potential customers possible, and explain carefully and simply that their IE-only approach is hurting their business. If you can't, frankly, you should give careful thought to whether these are people that you want to work with long-term. Easy to say, I know, but you'll discover, eventually, that there's a lot of power in saying no - and you'll certainly sleep better at night. As a freelance, I'm now (thankfully) able to choose who I work with. If they get what I do, fine. If they don't, and they resist my approach as your bosses appear to be doing, I Just Walk Away. Some people just refuse to be educated, even if it's to their detriment. I've had an enormous struggle getting our department permission to use Firefox, and the rest of the staff here (3000-odd people) don't have a choice because the Firefox site is banned. Banned?! What for? What kind of nazis *are* these people? Is this some kind of perceived security issue? And when you say the FF site, do you mean using FF as a browser? I feel badly that I can't do what I know I should be doing. As of today, IE5/Mac users will get no styles at all when they view our site. That's all I can do, and I guess it's better than it being totally broken. It certainly is, but it's not *all* you can do. If you track back through this thread, you'll see that my original suggestion was to serve IE5Mac typographic styles but not layout styles - you can still make a web page that looks a whole lot nicer than a completely unstyled one; you just have to check that your content still works OK when it's delivered in linear fashion. sunny(fed-up-with-it) Don't be; it's a learning experience for you too - embrace it! And as dealing with and educating bosses/clients is probably drifting a bit OT for this list (although I think the concept of 'selling' Standards is perfectly relevant), feel free to contact me offlist if you'd like to continue the discussion. N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for
Re: [WSG] Support for Macs and Firefox (was Support for IE5/Mac?)
Rachel May wrote: Seeing as we're on a big rant here I might as well add my 2c! Today I went to New Zealand's National Museum website - Te Papa. I searched for the information I was after (about native spiders) and came across the content and then - woah. The layout was all wrong (content was at bottom of the page) and all the content was overlapping so I couldn't even read it. This is a CSS driven site so I emailed them, let them know of the problem, because it shouldn't be too hard to fix. The reply I got said: Unfortunately, the website is not designed to work with Safari, Firefox or Mozilla browser technology. get the ie tab extension, if you have a pc you can even run windows update from inside firefox. https://addons.mozilla.org/extensions.php?app=%7bec8030f7-c20a-464f-9b0e-13a3a9e97384%7d the extension is on this first page. shouldn't have to do it, but some people are just ignert that way. cheers, dwain ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Support for Macs and Firefox (was Support for IE5/Mac?)
Rachel May wrote: This website is a government site - therefore should be support accessibility and web guidelines - and is our national museum and icon... I agree with you, Rachel - all sites paid for with public money should be accessible. However, because Te Papa is an Autonomous Crown Entity (which is about as far outside the Public Service as you can get without being an SOE), the Government Web Guidelines are not mandatory (see the E-government website http://www.e.govt.nz/standards/web-guidelines for the Cabinet Minute establishing the boundaries). We pushed it as far as Cabinet would go to include the Defence Force, Police and SIS, but we could only invite Parliament to take part. While I absolutely support your gripe here, you might want to send it to the Ministers of Disability Issues (Ruth Dyson) and Arts, Culture and Heritage (Rt.Hon Helen Clark with Hon. Judith Tizard and Hon. Mahara Okeroa as Associate Ministers). The Office of Disability Issues has just issued an RFP for an audit survey of Government Websites' Accessibility (MSD 2006/946) covering 159 websites (including Te Papa) cheers Mark Harris ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Support for Macs and Firefox (was Support for IE5/Mac?)
New Zealand government websites should have the New Zealand government web standards applied to them, that Te Papa fails miserably :D -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rachel May Sent: Friday, 4 August 2006 12:28 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Support for Macs and Firefox (was Support for IE5/Mac?) Seeing as we're on a big rant here I might as well add my 2c! Today I went to New Zealand's National Museum website - Te Papa. I searched for the information I was after (about native spiders) and came across the content and then - woah. The layout was all wrong (content was at bottom of the page) and all the content was overlapping so I couldn't even read it. This is a CSS driven site so I emailed them, let them know of the problem, because it shouldn't be too hard to fix. The reply I got said: Unfortunately, the website is not designed to work with Safari, Firefox or Mozilla browser technology. This website is a government site - therefore should be support accessibility and web guidelines - and is our national museum and icon... -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Nick Gleitzman Sent: Friday, 4 August 2006 1:18 p.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Support for IE5/Mac? (was Browser stats) SunUp wrote: * refuse to support Macs and refer any compaints to the boss and the IT department. Amen to that. There's no reason to be forced to support hardware it your department won't make allowances for testing on it. If they want you to support it, they need to make that possible. They couldn't care less. I'M the one trying to do The Right Thing and support what I can, but they don't understand and have no desire to understand about browser support. They support IE, that's it, and that's all they care about. That's a head-in-the-sand attitude that is disturbingly widespread. The MS marketing machine has done an astonishingly successful job of convincing a significant proportion of the world that 'This is a PC, this is what it does. Don't think; just use it as it is.' It's understandable to get this attitude from home users who don't know better, but in a business environment it's just plain crazy. It's like opening a retail shop and then barring anyone who chooses to wear red socks from entering. Why would you willingly and knowingly ignore *any* source of potential business? I think it's an important part of our job as designers/developers to educate out clients, bosses, and site visitors about the medium. After all, whether we're freelancers or employees, aren't we hired because we know more about this stuff than the person hiring us? I *always* include, at the preproduction stage of a project, a clear explanation to the client that their site will NOT look the same to all of their visitors, and I show them samples of previous sites to illustrate the kind of (usually minor) variations they might expect - including sparsely or unstyled versions in older browsers. You need to find someone in management who cares enough about their business to allow you to reach the largest number of potential customers possible, and explain carefully and simply that their IE-only approach is hurting their business. If you can't, frankly, you should give careful thought to whether these are people that you want to work with long-term. Easy to say, I know, but you'll discover, eventually, that there's a lot of power in saying no - and you'll certainly sleep better at night. As a freelance, I'm now (thankfully) able to choose who I work with. If they get what I do, fine. If they don't, and they resist my approach as your bosses appear to be doing, I Just Walk Away. Some people just refuse to be educated, even if it's to their detriment. I've had an enormous struggle getting our department permission to use Firefox, and the rest of the staff here (3000-odd people) don't have a choice because the Firefox site is banned. Banned?! What for? What kind of nazis *are* these people? Is this some kind of perceived security issue? And when you say the FF site, do you mean using FF as a browser? I feel badly that I can't do what I know I should be doing. As of today, IE5/Mac users will get no styles at all when they view our site. That's all I can do, and I guess it's better than it being totally broken. It certainly is, but it's not *all* you can do. If you track back through this thread, you'll see that my original suggestion was to serve IE5Mac typographic styles but not layout styles - you can still make a web page that looks a whole lot nicer than a completely unstyled one; you just have to check that your content still works OK when it's delivered in linear fashion. sunny(fed-up-with-it) Don't be; it's a learning experience for you too - embrace it! And as dealing with and educating
Re: [WSG] Semantic usage of th
I understand the th tag should be used on the items in the top row, but I'd describe it a bit differently - the th tag should be used for any cell which is a heading for other cells. After that it's just following the logic through :) The scope attribute removes ambiguity of the top left cell. cheers, Ben -- --- http://www.200ok.com.au/ --- The future has arrived; it's just not --- evenly distributed. - William Gibson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
