RE: [WSG] Forget about Opera and Mac (and Windows Vista) ??
OK, so opera isn't playing by the rules...
Can I change padding: 0 to padding: 0 0?
I've gone like a madman through the site and changed all occurrences of
padding: 0 to padding: 0 0
And I assume padding: 4px would become padding: 4px 4px, correct?
-
FYI: changing from...
#container {padding: 0;}
...to...
#container {padding: 1px 0;}
...is enough to get Opera 9 on board.
It's still perfectly valid with this change, and doesn't affect other
browsers.
Opera 9 needs that element to take up space (for whatever reason), which it
doesn't in your page at the moment. Any method will do.
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RE: [WSG] Forget about Opera and Mac (and Windows Vista) ??
PS: is there anything else out there other than http://www.browsercam.com They seem to be pretty pricy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Forget about Opera and Mac (and Windows Vista) ??
Not if you sign up to a group purchase: http://www.fundable.org/groupactions/BrowserCamGroup On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:47:28 +1000, Taco Fleur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: PS: is there anything else out there other than http://www.browsercam.com They seem to be pretty pricy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design Web print design services www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Forget about Opera and Mac (and Windows Vista) ??
Have you used that yourself? Is anyone else using it? If I understand it correctly, the pool gets build up till there is enough money to buy a subscription and then that login gets shared among everyone? Still think those prices are out of this world, they would get everyone signing up if they brought their prices down.. -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Faulds Sent: Thursday, 26 October 2006 5:10 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Forget about Opera and Mac (and Windows Vista) ?? Not if you sign up to a group purchase: http://www.fundable.org/groupactions/BrowserCamGroup On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:47:28 +1000, Taco Fleur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: PS: is there anything else out there other than http://www.browsercam.com They seem to be pretty pricy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design Web print design services www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG]
On 26/10/06, James Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would normally use a dl for this. You still can :) Just apply the relevant class to the data's parent object - in this case, the dd, e.g. dtPhone:/dt dd class=tel01234 456 789/dd And no, you don't need to use an address element here. -- Olly Hodgson http://thinkdrastic.net/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Forget about Opera and Mac (and Windows Vista) ??
Taco Fleur wrote: PS: is there anything else out there other than http://www.browsercam.com They seem to be pretty pricy Depending on your needs and equipment, you may be able to set up everything you need on your own PC for free! Assuming you're running Windows, the following is all freely available: * Virtual PC * Linux * Swift *Virtual PC* http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtualpc/default.mspx You can use this to install alternative OSs on your machine. For example. * Earlier versions of windows for IE5.x * Windows Vista RC1, which has IE7. It's a free (but very large) download or Microsoft can send it to you on DVD. http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/getready/preview.mspx * Linux, for testing linux based browsers, such as Konqueror (based on KHTML) (If you've got a Mac instead, there's other virtual desktop software available elsewhere) *Kubuntu Linux* Kubuntu is a good, easy-to-use linux distro if you're new to Linux and comes with Konqueror installed. (Free download or order the free CD) http://www.kubuntu.org/ *Swift* Swift is a port of WebKit to Windows. If you don't have access to Safari on a Mac, this is the next best thing, as far as the rendering engine in concerned. However, WebKit was originally based on KHTML, so they're very similar. The site, getswift.org is dead, but there's a binary available. http://lachy.id.au/dev/swift/binaries/ Browsers like OmniWeb and iCab are fairly good, but unfortunately the only way to test in those is to get access to a Mac. Both Opera and Mozilla (incl. Firefox, Camino, etc.) on the mac are equivalent to the Windows versions. Finally, IE/Mac is officially dead and not worth worrying about. So, even if you only have a PC, you can still get access almost all browsers you need to test in all for free. -- Lachlan Hunt http://lachy.id.au/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Forget about Opera and Mac (and Windows Vista) ??
Taco Fleur wrote: Have you used that yourself? Is anyone else using it? If I understand it correctly, the pool gets build up till there is enough money to buy a subscription and then that login gets shared among everyone? No, everyone doesn't share the same login, its totally separate from anyone else and I imagine all the pools are set up like that. I've been a part of a pool for going on two years now and love it and its about $20/year. On a sleepy Saturday afternoon someone on the CSS list proposed a pool, someone else said off-topic, but I'd already jumped at the opportunity! Still think those prices are out of this world, they would get everyone signing up if they brought their prices down.. I think they're generous for allowing pools, myself. and it been a big aid in learning css and also a aid to show to clients, you can make a public url, to help get across the point that the world is bigger than their own particular browser. best, Donna -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Faulds Sent: Thursday, 26 October 2006 5:10 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Forget about Opera and Mac (and Windows Vista) ?? Not if you sign up to a group purchase: http://www.fundable.org/groupactions/BrowserCamGroup On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 16:47:28 +1000, Taco Fleur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: PS: is there anything else out there other than http://www.browsercam.com They seem to be pretty pricy *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design Web print design services www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Donna Jones Portland, Maine 207 772 0266 http://www.westendwebs.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] accesibility lawsuit
I love this quote: The blind have more access to information than they ever had in history - but that's only true to the extent that Web accessibility is maintained, Danielsen said. The technology is out there, and we don't need barriers to be put in our way. Give us a way in. If that's not a call to action I don't know what is. Vive la revolution! Chris -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya Sent: 25 October 2006 21:57 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] accesibility lawsuit On 10/25/06, Brian Cummiskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in case you ugys haven't seen this yet: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061024/ap_on_bi_ge/business_of_life Kelly Groehler, a spokeswoman for Best Buy Co., says the company has made a number of changes to its site since late last year, including incorporating alt tags - or text that labels items like graphics - into its site. alt tags ... groan... but thanks so much for this article, and big props to Best Buy for being proactive. I like this part: Other retailers are making similar efforts, but it remains a challenge due to the continuing evolution in the technologies used by blind people to surf the Internet, says Scott Silverman, executive director of Shop.org, a division of the National Retail Federation for online retailers. As the retailers' Web sites continue to evolve to stay competitive in the marketplace, sometimes the technologies necessary to do that are a little bit ahead of where the screen-readers are, Silverman said. It's a very fast-moving environment. Retailers want to serve all their customers, including blind people. Maybe, just maybe, some standards for how web sites are made would be a good idea? Then, as long as the sites fit those standards, then maybe it would be easier to assume that the screenreaders can understand them? Maybe these standards could be called, oh, I don't know... ... wait for it... webstandards? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] accesibility lawsuit
It's interesting how things crop up at the same time. I blogged yesterday about screen reader software and have been discussing this on an accessibility list also. It's not just poor websites we have to be thinking about but rubbish screen reader software too. Yes - vive la revolution, but not just for web site developers, eh? Thanks for the link though guys - it's fun to waft under the noses of my boss here. On 10/26/06, Chris Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I love this quote: The blind have more access to information than they ever had in history - but that's only true to the extent that Web accessibility is maintained, Danielsen said. The technology is out there, and we don't need barriers to be put in our way. Give us a way in. If that's not a call to action I don't know what is. Vive la revolution! Chris -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya Sent: 25 October 2006 21:57 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] accesibility lawsuit On 10/25/06, Brian Cummiskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in case you ugys haven't seen this yet: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061024/ap_on_bi_ge/business_of_life Kelly Groehler, a spokeswoman for Best Buy Co., says the company has made a number of changes to its site since late last year, including incorporating alt tags - or text that labels items like graphics - into its site. alt tags ... groan... but thanks so much for this article, and big props to Best Buy for being proactive. I like this part: Other retailers are making similar efforts, but it remains a challenge due to the continuing evolution in the technologies used by blind people to surf the Internet, says Scott Silverman, executive director of Shop.org, a division of the National Retail Federation for online retailers. As the retailers' Web sites continue to evolve to stay competitive in the marketplace, sometimes the technologies necessary to do that are a little bit ahead of where the screen-readers are, Silverman said. It's a very fast-moving environment. Retailers want to serve all their customers, including blind people. Maybe, just maybe, some standards for how web sites are made would be a good idea? Then, as long as the sites fit those standards, then maybe it would be easier to assume that the screenreaders can understand them? Maybe these standards could be called, oh, I don't know... ... wait for it... webstandards? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Frances Berriman http://www.fberriman.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Accessible Multi-Column List
Have you considered styling your LIs so that they sit side-by-side within the list? Then you would have one single list, with list items taking up 49% of the width of the list, giving the appearance of two columns on screen, but only one physical list for accessibility. I am sure there are many different ways of doing this, but the most obvious starting point would be to style the LIs as 'display:inline' and take it from there. Regards, Mike -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul Novitski Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 10:35 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible Multi-Column List At 10/26/2006 01:44 AM, Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: Basically I need to show a list of links in two columns, alphabetical vertically (one column will not suffice as the list is too long). *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Accessible Multi-Column List
This solution would be great, except that I need the list to remain alphabetical *vertically*. Have you considered styling your LIs so that they sit side-by-side within the list? Then you would have one single list, with list items taking up 49% of the width of the list, giving the appearance of two columns on screen, but only one physical list for accessibility. I am sure there are many different ways of doing this, but the most obvious starting point would be to style the LIs as 'display:inline' and take it from there. Regards, Mike -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Multi-Column List
Hi Paul The methods I describe in this article use ems for positioning, not pixels: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/multicolumnlists/ My favorite method is the last (#6). Have you found that it doesn't survive cross-browser? I'd be interested in your findings. I saw your example 6, and it looks great. I maybe nitpicking but the columns don't line up in Safari 2.0.4 or Opera 9.0.2 Mac. I know they've got a small audience generally, but I'm hoping to find something more x-browser if possible. Do you know a workaround for this? -- XERT Communications email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mobile: 0438 017 416 http://www.xert.com.au/ web development : digital imaging : dvd production *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Multi-Column List
Thanks Paul, A great read of the options for multi column lists. You have helped another activist and cat lover trying to give up using Tables. Thanks Tim On 26/10/2006, at 7:34 PM, Paul Novitski wrote: At 10/26/2006 01:44 AM, Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: Basically I need to show a list of links in two columns, alphabetical vertically (one column will not suffice as the list is too long). I've seen a number of options for styling a list in two columns (or more) using line-height and a negative margin, but they either don't render well across a number of browsers, or rely on pixels etc. The methods I describe in this article use ems for positioning, not pixels: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/multicolumnlists/ My favorite method is the last (#6). Have you found that it doesn't survive cross-browser? I'd be interested in your findings. The other option is to use two separate lists (part a and part b) - but I imagine that this won't be as accessible. eg h2Sub Heading/h2 ul class=parta ul class=partb liApples/li liOranges/li liBananas/liliPineapples/li /ul /ul It doesn't seem inaccessible to me, it's just not true to the actual content which is one list, not two. I don't think DLs or tables are appropriate here. Does anyone disagree? Not I. How could a DL help you here? You mean by putting half the list in one or more DTs and the other half in one or more DDs? Unless the first half of the list defines the second half in some way, using a DL would be inappropriate. Splitting the list in two with any markup purely for the sake of presentation seems inappropriate to me (of course, I'm not facing your deadline!). I still think your best bet is working for better cross-browser styling of a single unordered list. Regards, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** The Editor Heretic Press http://www.hereticpress.com Email [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG]
That's the thing, it seems, about Microformats. The biggest hangup at the beginning is thinking they are more complex than they are. I first thought that you had to make sure all the divs and spans and whatnot were in line with all the examples I saw. Then I later found out that it's seriously JUST class names. That's it!Good luck in microformatic life!-adam(my first post)On 10/26/06, Olly Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 26/10/06, James Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would normally use a dl for this.You still can :) Just apply the relevant class to the data's parent object - in this case, the dd, e.g.dtPhone:/dtdd class=tel01234 456 789/ddAnd no, you don't need to use an address element here.--Olly Hodgson http://thinkdrastic.net/***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]*** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG]
Yep. That's totally the trick. Just believe in the simplicity. Mark up everything beautifully and semantically - then add in the microformat class names. Nothing more to it - *honest*. On 10/26/06, Adam Darowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's the thing, it seems, about Microformats. The biggest hangup at the beginning is thinking they are more complex than they are. I first thought that you had to make sure all the divs and spans and whatnot were in line with all the examples I saw. Then I later found out that it's seriously JUST class names. That's it! Good luck in microformatic life! -adam (my first post) On 10/26/06, Olly Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 26/10/06, James Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would normally use a dl for this. You still can :) Just apply the relevant class to the data's parent object - in this case, the dd, e.g. dtPhone:/dt dd class=tel01234 456 789/dd And no, you don't need to use an address element here. -- Olly Hodgson http://thinkdrastic.net/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Frances Berriman http://www.fberriman.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Multi-Column List
On Oct 26, 2006, at 7:26 PM, Sarah Peeke (XERT) wrote: The methods I describe in this article use ems for positioning, not pixels: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/multicolumnlists/ My favorite method is the last (#6). Have you found that it doesn't survive cross-browser? I'd be interested in your findings. I saw your example 6, and it looks great. I maybe nitpicking but the columns don't line up in Safari 2.0.4 or Opera 9.0.2 Mac. I know they've got a small audience generally, but I'm hoping to find something more x-browser if possible. Do you know a workaround for this? Unfortunately, there are no workarounds. It all depends on how the browser decides to round off the numbers: assume the computed height of one li is 2.1em (font-size/line-height/padding); this might compute to 33.6 px (@font-size=16px). Then you have to take the total computed height of one column (number of li by 2.3em). Depending on how browsers round the numbers of, you end up with a few (screen) px difference. How do you slice pixels on screen ? All browser use different methods with Gecko being one of the more 'exact'. In the case above, assuming five li in a column, Gecko will compute the following numbers: 33/34/33/34/33 (equals 167px, where as the compute height of the column is 168px). Other browsers will round off the height of each li to 33px but make the total computed height 168px. See where we are going ? Note: I simplify slightly above. Philippe --- Philippe Wittenbergh http://emps.l-c-n.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Forget about Opera and Mac (and Windows Vista) ??
On 10/26/06 1:28 AM, Taco Fleur [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The issues with IE 5 Mac are dead easy to fix. I'll go along with the 'dead' part. Again, as long as stats don't show otherwise, It's not that uncommon for folks to drop Mac _IE_. Heck, Microsoft did. But Safari, Mac FF, Mac Opera (8-9), Camino (like FF) and Mac OS X as a whole is _not_ dead and should be tested for. -- Tom Livingston | Senior Multimedia Artist | Media Logic | ph: 518.456.3015x231 | fx: 518.456.4279 | mlinc.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG]
This wasn't for me, but thanks for the info all the same. Confirmation I should say. I saw the original question and did a little research, then found an hcard generator via Wikipedia and I ended up thinking wow, that's a lot of divs for an address block (kinda silly). Then I figured that was all nonsense, I could use a list, give each LI the appropriate class for microformat use, and have a nice day. I'm relieved that's the case. Respectfully, Mike Cherim http://green-beast.com/ - Original Message - From: Frances Berriman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 7:35 AM Subject: Re: [WSG] Yep. That's totally the trick. Just believe in the simplicity. Mark up everything beautifully and semantically - then add in the microformat class names. Nothing more to it - *honest*. On 10/26/06, Adam Darowski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That's the thing, it seems, about Microformats. The biggest hangup at the beginning is thinking they are more complex than they are. I first thought that you had to make sure all the divs and spans and whatnot were in line with all the examples I saw. Then I later found out that it's seriously JUST class names. That's it! Good luck in microformatic life! -adam (my first post) On 10/26/06, Olly Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 26/10/06, James Oppenheim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would normally use a dl for this. You still can :) Just apply the relevant class to the data's parent object - in this case, the dd, e.g. dtPhone:/dt dd class=tel01234 456 789/dd And no, you don't need to use an address element here. -- Olly Hodgson http://thinkdrastic.net/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Frances Berriman http://www.fberriman.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a js snippet that can generate xhtml/css validation links
Thierry Koblentz wrote: I run WAMP, and when I test a php version of my test page, I get the exact same result as in IIS. What does PHP have to do with SSI?? Apache has an INCLUDES filter and parses SS-Includes, no? But do you mean SSI or IIS? I'm not sure I understand that question. You say above , and when I test a php version of my test page, -- hence my confusion about a php version of an *SSI* test... NP. I just ran a test on a *remote* server and I got the same result as yours. For the sake of completeness -- i.e. terminating a thread most folks are probably tired of :-) -- it'd be nice to note the Apache version involved in the differing results, e.g. Apache 2.2.3: DOCUMENT_URI is the calling page, not the include I'm guessing the alternate result was on 1.3.x, but it'd be good to know for sure. -- Hassan Schroeder - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Webtuitive Design === (+1) 408-938-0567 === http://webtuitive.com opinion: webtuitive.blogspot.com dream. code. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] accesibility lawsuit
I agreeI find it amusing (concerning??) that screen readers are omitted from these discussions, like there's nothing more they can do. Any other product out there that falls short (on any feature / ability) gets called on it - immediately. Screen readers should be no different, IMO. Mike On 10/26/06, Frances Berriman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's interesting how things crop up at the same time. I blogged yesterday about screen reader software and have been discussing this on an accessibility list also. It's not just poor websites we have to be thinking about but rubbish screen reader software too. Yes - vive la revolution, but not just for web site developers, eh? Thanks for the link though guys - it's fun to waft under the noses of my boss here. On 10/26/06, Chris Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I love this quote: The blind have more access to information than they ever had in history - but that's only true to the extent that Web accessibility is maintained, Danielsen said. The technology is out there, and we don't need barriers to be put in our way. Give us a way in. If that's not a call to action I don't know what is. Vive la revolution! Chris -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya Sent: 25 October 2006 21:57 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] accesibility lawsuit On 10/25/06, Brian Cummiskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in case you ugys haven't seen this yet: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061024/ap_on_bi_ge/business_of_life Kelly Groehler, a spokeswoman for Best Buy Co., says the company has made a number of changes to its site since late last year, including incorporating alt tags - or text that labels items like graphics - into its site. alt tags ... groan... but thanks so much for this article, and big props to Best Buy for being proactive. I like this part: Other retailers are making similar efforts, but it remains a challenge due to the continuing evolution in the technologies used by blind people to surf the Internet, says Scott Silverman, executive director of Shop.org, a division of the National Retail Federation for online retailers. As the retailers' Web sites continue to evolve to stay competitive in the marketplace, sometimes the technologies necessary to do that are a little bit ahead of where the screen-readers are, Silverman said. It's a very fast-moving environment. Retailers want to serve all their customers, including blind people. Maybe, just maybe, some standards for how web sites are made would be a good idea? Then, as long as the sites fit those standards, then maybe it would be easier to assume that the screenreaders can understand them? Maybe these standards could be called, oh, I don't know... ... wait for it... webstandards? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Frances Berriman http://www.fberriman.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] a js snippet that can generate xhtml/css validation links
Hassan Schroeder wrote: Thierry Koblentz wrote: For the sake of completeness -- i.e. terminating a thread most folks are probably tired of :-) It has been an interesting thread for me. I had no idea that Apache and IIS returned different DOCUMENT_URI values when using echo in an Include... it'd be nice to note the Apache version involved in the differing results, e.g. It's because I got the same values yesterday with IIS and Apache that I decided to publish the page on a remote server (to make sure). This morning... that page acts the same locally *and* remotely (???) I guess that was too much testing last night. :-) --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] accesibility lawsuit
I was just thinking yesterday... what is holding the open source community back from developing good screen reader software? There are a lot of smart people out there that obviously care about this. Is there some sort of hangup I don't know about? Thanks,adamOn 10/26/06, Michael Yeaney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agreeI find it amusing (concerning??) that screen readers areomitted from these discussions, like there's nothing more they can do. Any other product out there that falls short (on any feature /ability) gets called on it - immediately.Screen readers should be no different, IMO.MikeOn 10/26/06, Frances Berriman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's interesting how things crop up at the same time.I blogged yesterday about screen reader software and have been discussing this on an accessibility list also.It's not just poor websites we have to be thinking about but rubbish screen reader software too.Yes - vive la revolution, but not just for web site developers, eh? Thanks for the link though guys - it's fun to waft under the noses of my boss here. On 10/26/06, Chris Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I love this quote: The blind have more access to information than they ever had in history - but that's only true to the extent that Web accessibility is maintained, Danielsen said. The technology is out there, and we don't need barriers to be put in our way. Give us a way in. If that's not a call to action I don't know what is. Vive la revolution! Chris -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya Sent: 25 October 2006 21:57 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] accesibility lawsuit On 10/25/06, Brian Cummiskey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: in case you ugys haven't seen this yet: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061024/ap_on_bi_ge/business_of_life Kelly Groehler, a spokeswoman for Best Buy Co., says the company has made a number of changes to its site since late last year, including incorporating alt tags - or text that labels items like graphics - into its site. alt tags ... groan... but thanks so much for this article, and big props to Best Buy for being proactive. I like this part: Other retailers are making similar efforts, but it remains a challenge due to the continuing evolution in the technologies used by blind people to surf the Internet, says Scott Silverman, executive director of Shop.org, a division of the National Retail Federation for online retailers. As the retailers' Web sites continue to evolve to stay competitive in the marketplace, sometimes the technologies necessary to do that are a little bit ahead of where the screen-readers are, Silverman said. It's a very fast-moving environment. Retailers want to serve all their customers, including blind people. Maybe, just maybe, some standards for how web sites are made would be a good idea? Then, as long as the sites fit those standards, then maybe it would be easier to assume that the screenreaders can understand them? Maybe these standards could be called, oh, I don't know... ... wait for it... webstandards? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com*** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Frances Berriman http://www.fberriman.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] **List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]*** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Multi-Column List
At 10/26/2006 05:58 AM, Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote: Not sure if this one's messed up on various platforms/browsers but I think it's stable. It might yet another option for you. It's good and resizes well in everything *I've* tested it in (including IE7). The ordering is left - right - down, left - right - down, and so on. Very accessible. Write-up: http://mikecherim.com/gbcms_xml/news_page.php?id=4#n4 Experiment/demo: http://mikecherim.com/experiments/css_double_lists.php The main drawback of this technique is that, although the markup sequence is correct, the presentational sequence is fractured, with consecutive list items appearing in adjacent columns: A B C D E F The challenge is to present the list items in two or more vertical sequences: A D B E C F ...while maintaining a single, correctly-sequenced list in the markup. Regards, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Multi-Column List
Hello Paul, Thanks for the feedback. I did note it was left - right - down so it was more or less just an option for if wanting a presentational list in that format (not sure if it's wrong or fractured per se). That said, maybe I'll have to offer it the other way in a future experiment. I do suspect I'll have to measure heights in EMs, though to prevent breakage (assuming I'll end up using some negative margin-top). Cheers. Mike - Original Message - From: Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible Multi-Column List At 10/26/2006 05:58 AM, Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote: Not sure if this one's messed up on various platforms/browsers but I think it's stable. It might yet another option for you. It's good and resizes well in everything *I've* tested it in (including IE7). The ordering is left - right - down, left - right - down, and so on. Very accessible. Write-up: http://mikecherim.com/gbcms_xml/news_page.php?id=4#n4 Experiment/demo: http://mikecherim.com/experiments/css_double_lists.php The main drawback of this technique is that, although the markup sequence is correct, the presentational sequence is fractured, with consecutive list items appearing in adjacent columns: A B C D E F The challenge is to present the list items in two or more vertical sequences: A D B E C F ...while maintaining a single, correctly-sequenced list in the markup. Regards, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] accesibility lawsuit
on 26/10/2006 19:12 Adam Darowski said the following: I was just thinking yesterday... what is holding the open source community back from developing good screen reader software? You mean like: http://www.oatsoft.org There are a lot of smart people out there that obviously care about this. Is there some sort of hangup I don't know about? OATS is fairly new (launched May 2006) but there does seem to be a reasonable archive of software already available or under development. Mel *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Multi-Column List
At 10/26/2006 11:54 AM, Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote: Thanks for the feedback. I did note it was left - right - down so it was more or less just an option for if wanting a presentational list in that format (not sure if it's wrong or fractured per se). Sure -- perhaps I shouldn't have used such prejudicial language! There are instances in which horizontal list wrap is perfectly acceptable, e.g. gallery thumbnails. It's when the designer (such as the OP for this thread) wants vertical sequences of list items that the horizontal format seems inappropriate. That said, maybe I'll have to offer it the other way in a future experiment. I do suspect I'll have to measure heights in EMs, though to prevent breakage (assuming I'll end up using some negative margin-top). If you haven't already, please read my List Apart article http://alistapart.com/articles/multicolumnlists/. I'd love it if you could improve on any of those techniques or come up with ones I hadn't considered. Warm regards, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Forget about Opera and Mac (and Windows Vista) ??
On 26/10/06 5:47 PM, Lachlan Hunt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Taco Fleur wrote: PS: is there anything else out there other than http://www.browsercam.com They seem to be pretty pricy Depending on your needs and equipment, you may be able to set up everything you need on your own PC for free! Assuming you're running Windows, the following is all freely available: * Virtual PC * Linux * Swift *Virtual PC* http://www.microsoft.com/windows/virtualpc/default.mspx You can use this to install alternative OSs on your machine. For example. Just bear in mind that a major hurdle to using Virtual PC is that it now requires the host OS to be XP Pro. If you're using XP Home, it won't even install. If you're unable or unprepared to plump for an upgrade, you're stuck. And even if you do, it's hardly free anymore, is it? Still cheaper and more efficient than a physical box though. -- Kevin Futter Webmaster, St. Bernard's College http://www.sbc.melb.catholic.edu.au/ -- This e-mail and any attachments may be confidential. You must not disclose or use the information in this e-mail if you are not the intended recipient. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify us immediately and delete the e-mail and all copies. The College does not guarantee that this e-mail is virus or error free. The attached files are provided and may only be used on the basis that the user assumes all responsibility for any loss, damage or consequence resulting directly or indirectly from the use of the attached files, whether caused by the negligence of the sender or not. The content and opinions in this e-mail are not necessarily those of the College. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Multi-Column List
Paul Novitski wrote: If you haven't already, please read my List Apart article http://alistapart.com/articles/multicolumnlists/. I'd love it if you could improve on any of those techniques or come up with ones I hadn't considered. Hi Paul, What about this one?: http://www.tjkdesign.com/test/ ;-) BTW, there are typos in the markup box on http://www.alistapart.com/d/multicolumnlists/example5.html You're missing the opening A tags... --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Multi-Column List
Thanks Paul, I will for sure. Part of my learning methodology is to roll up my sleeves and get my hands dirty so to speak, but often before doing my experiments I do like to take a look around to see what others have done, then I try to do things differently. To experiment. That's the fun part. My next experiment, to be published after the 1st, will be an odd-ball image replacement technique that I think is unique. I refuse to call it MIR though ;-) Cheers. Mike - Original Message - From: Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible Multi-Column List At 10/26/2006 11:54 AM, Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote: Thanks for the feedback. I did note it was left - right - down so it was more or less just an option for if wanting a presentational list in that format (not sure if it's wrong or fractured per se). Sure -- perhaps I shouldn't have used such prejudicial language! There are instances in which horizontal list wrap is perfectly acceptable, e.g. gallery thumbnails. It's when the designer (such as the OP for this thread) wants vertical sequences of list items that the horizontal format seems inappropriate. That said, maybe I'll have to offer it the other way in a future experiment. I do suspect I'll have to measure heights in EMs, though to prevent breakage (assuming I'll end up using some negative margin-top). If you haven't already, please read my List Apart article http://alistapart.com/articles/multicolumnlists/. I'd love it if you could improve on any of those techniques or come up with ones I hadn't considered. Warm regards, Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Multi-Column List
At 10/26/2006 04:06 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: Paul Novitski wrote: If you haven't already, please read my List Apart article http://alistapart.com/articles/multicolumnlists/. I'd love it if you could improve on any of those techniques or come up with ones I hadn't considered. Hi Paul, What about this one?: http://www.tjkdesign.com/test/ ;-) Table-based markup! How ingenious! You're a regular pioneer of the untrod realms, Thierry. BTW, there are typos in the markup box on http://www.alistapart.com/d/multicolumnlists/example5.html You're missing the opening A tags... Thanks! Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Forget about Opera and Mac (and Windows Vista) ??
Ahh I see, better undo all those fixes that weren't fixes ;-) How about giving it a height of 100%? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Multi-Column List
http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/09/18/revisiting-image-rollovers/ If you're talking about the Ryan Rollovers that you link to, it looks very similar to the Gilder-Levin method which is mentioned at http://www.mezzoblue.com/tests/revised-image-replacement/ (dated 2004) and was updated to become the Gilder Levin Ryznar Jacoubsen method - http://www.ryznardesign.com/web_coding/image_replacement/ -- Tyssen Design Web print design services www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Multi-Column List
On 10/26/06, John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/09/18/revisiting-image-rollovers/ If you're talking about the Ryan Rollovers that you link to, it looks very similar to the Gilder-Levin method which is mentioned at http://www.mezzoblue.com/tests/revised-image-replacement/ (dated 2004) and was updated to become the Gilder Levin Ryznar Jacoubsen method - http://www.ryznardesign.com/web_coding/image_replacement/ Oh well, in 2004 I thought CSS was just for scrollbar colors... but I still don't know how image replacement is similar to image rollovers. Did you notice that Ryan's rollover, um, changes on roll-over? Not that any of this is on topic, so I'll leave it at that. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Accessible Multi-Column List
Lol, MIR is taken... I did not know. Mike - Original Message - From: Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Sent: Thursday, October 26, 2006 7:54 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Accessible Multi-Column List On 10/26/06, Mike at Green-Beast.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks Paul, I will for sure. Part of my learning methodology is to roll up my sleeves and get my hands dirty so to speak, but often before doing my experiments I do like to take a look around to see what others have done, then I try to do things differently. To experiment. That's the fun part. My next experiment, to be published after the 1st, will be an odd-ball image replacement technique that I think is unique. I refuse to call it MIR though ;-) ooof, but MIR is not for image replacement, it's for rollovers, and it's already been outdone: http://www.christianmontoya.com/2006/09/18/revisiting-image-rollovers/ looking forward to your technique though, sounds interesting! p.s. You could always go for IR-Beast =) -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] DOM created table markup [was: Accessible Multi-Column List]
Christian Montoya wrote: On 10/26/06, Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10/26/2006 04:06 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: Paul Novitski wrote: If you haven't already, please read my List Apart article http://alistapart.com/articles/multicolumnlists/. I'd love it if you could improve on any of those techniques or come up with ones I hadn't considered. Hi Paul, What about this one?: http://www.tjkdesign.com/test/ ;-) Table-based markup! How ingenious! You're a regular pioneer of the untrod realms, Thierry. I highly doubt that the idea of using tables for layout will ever catch on =) I don't agree :-) IMO, the goal should be to deliver the *cleanest* document possible, with the least amount of structural hack, hook, etc. In the example I posted, one can't get cleaner than that. The only issue I see is that screen-readers end up with a table. But I have an idea about this: what about going one step further than styles switchers, why not implementing *behavior* switchers? I mean, any fail-safe solution that targets visual browsers could be turned off. I'd say that would be more valuable for many users than giving them a choice between different skins or text-size ;-) This document is semantic and has nothing extra to parse: http://www.tjkdesign.com/test/ on top of that, it is possible to make the list display across different number of columns without having to edit the markup nor the stylesheet; actually, there is *no* stylesheet ;) Disabling the script is all what is needed for screen-readers to speak the links in the proper sequence. Think about it... ;-) --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] cell is not a member of a group specified for any attribute.
Tee, see if this is what you want: table tr td class=firstsectioncolumn 1/td td class=secondsectioncolumn 2/td td class=secondsectioncolumn 3/td /tr tr class=third_section_with_two_columns td colspan=1column 1/td td colspan=2column 2/td /tr /table You had the word cell and the validator was complaing about that, then I adjusted the colspan, - you can adjust to suit yourself. didn't actually validate it but used that Tidy extension I keep talking about and it flagged the problem. cheers Donna, now let's see if i can get back to work. :) Tee G. Peng wrote: Hi, I am doing a table layout that has 3 columns and 3 sections in row. The first two sections have 3 columns but I want the last section to have only 2 columns. My markup is such tr td class=firstsectioncolumn 1/td td class=secondsectioncolumn 2/td td class=secondsectioncolumn 3/td /tr tr class=third_section_with_two_columns td cell colspan=2column 1/td td cell colspan=2column 2/td /tr W3C validator give me the cell is not a member of a group specified for any attribute. error. How do I do to achieve desired layout and satify validator? Thanks! tee *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Donna Jones Portland, Maine 207 772 0266 http://www.westendwebs.com/ *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] link:active = keyboard focus?
It seems keyboard focus is totally independent of mouse focus. If you first tab through a menu and then switch to the mouse and give an item focus (without clicking on the page), you will have two items in focus.
Any idea why :focus doesn't activate display:block on the sub nav? http://webdev.latrobe.edu.au/ss-test/menu.htmRegards,Stuart
On 10/23/06, Christian Montoya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Oct 23, 2006, at 4:34 PM, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: You are right a:focus works on FF, but I can't get it working in IE. And a:active won't work in IE for me either. Damn, this is annoying!
Did you put all 5 pseudoclasses in order?a:link { }a:visited { }a:focus { }a:hover { }a:active { }Christian Montoya
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Re: [WSG] DOM created table markup [was: Accessible Multi-Column List]
On 10/26/06, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Christian Montoya wrote: On 10/26/06, Paul Novitski [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 10/26/2006 04:06 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: Paul Novitski wrote: If you haven't already, please read my List Apart article http://alistapart.com/articles/multicolumnlists/. I'd love it if you could improve on any of those techniques or come up with ones I hadn't considered. Hi Paul, What about this one?: http://www.tjkdesign.com/test/ ;-) Table-based markup! How ingenious! You're a regular pioneer of the untrod realms, Thierry. I highly doubt that the idea of using tables for layout will ever catch on =) I don't agree :-) IMO, the goal should be to deliver the *cleanest* document possible, with the least amount of structural hack, hook, etc. In the example I posted, one can't get cleaner than that. The only issue I see is that screen-readers end up with a table. But I have an idea about this: what about going one step further than styles switchers, why not implementing *behavior* switchers? I mean, any fail-safe solution that targets visual browsers could be turned off. I'd say that would be more valuable for many users than giving them a choice between different skins or text-size ;-) This document is semantic and has nothing extra to parse: http://www.tjkdesign.com/test/ on top of that, it is possible to make the list display across different number of columns without having to edit the markup nor the stylesheet; actually, there is *no* stylesheet ;) Disabling the script is all what is needed for screen-readers to speak the links in the proper sequence. Think about it... ;-) Oh, I've been thinking about it. I've been wondering three things: 1. Can't you get the same result by using display:table? (granted, it would be hard) 2. Wouldn't it be better to use the dom to split the list into two lists and display them side by side? (how does the table work if there is an odd number of items?) 3. How does this expect to deal with user agents that look at *generated source* and not original source? -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Image replaced rollovers
On 10/26/06, John Faulds [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: but I still don't know how image replacement is similar to image rollovers. Because they're *image replaced* rollovers. Did you notice that Ryan's rollover, um, changes on roll-over? Yes I did. All that's different from the Gilder-Levin links is that Ryan's moving the background-image on :hover. The image replacement method is still the same. Oh ok, I get it now. Well, I imagine Ryan might have looked up Gilder-Levin at some point... but that's his call, not mine. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] link:active = keyboard focus?
On 10/26/06, Stuart Sherwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems keyboard focus is totally independent of mouse focus. If you first tab through a menu and then switch to the mouse and give an item focus (without clicking on the page), you will have two items in focus. Let's not confuse terminology. A mouse does not focus, it hovers. And yes, giving focus to one link and hover to another activates both states at the same time, but I can't imagine how else that would work. I would like to know where my keyboard and mouse* are at the same time anyway. But back to the original topic, active means a link that has been clicked or entered and is loading. Interestingly enough, if you have a link submit to #, then when you click it, it stays on the active/focus state (depending on the browser). It's hard to explain, so I'll give an example: http://cssplay.co.uk/menu/book.html * I mean, trackball. Mice are silly. -- -- Christian Montoya christianmontoya.com ... portfolio.christianmontoya.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] DOM created table markup [was: Accessible Multi-Column List]
Christian Montoya wrote: On 10/26/06, Thierry Koblentz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't agree :-) IMO, the goal should be to deliver the *cleanest* document possible, with the least amount of structural hack, hook, etc. In the example I posted, one can't get cleaner than that. The only issue I see is that screen-readers end up with a table. But I have an idea about this: what about going one step further than styles switchers, why not implementing *behavior* switchers? I mean, any fail-safe solution that targets visual browsers could be turned off. I'd say that would be more valuable for many users than giving them a choice between different skins or text-size ;-) This document is semantic and has nothing extra to parse: http://www.tjkdesign.com/test/ on top of that, it is possible to make the list display across different number of columns without having to edit the markup nor the stylesheet; actually, there is *no* stylesheet ;) Disabling the script is all what is needed for screen-readers to speak the links in the proper sequence. Think about it... ;-) Oh, I've been thinking about it. I've been wondering three things: 1. Can't you get the same result by using display:table? (granted, it would be hard) To begin with, IE is display:table-challenged (actually, that's what got me started [1]). And the problem would be the same, with a CSS solution one would have to plug hooks depending on the number of lists/columns to display. 2. Wouldn't it be better to use the dom to split the list into two lists and display them side by side? (how does the table work if there is an odd number of items?) But that's the whole problem. Why trying to generate something half decent? I think it is better to implement a solution that is perfect for visual browsers (what is more cross-browsers friendly than a table?) and implement some switch mechanism to disable the script when needed (screen-readers). Regarding the table with odd number of items, it is just a matter of doing more Maths to create empty cells to the left of the last ones. This is just something I quickly put together, I don't think there is any real use for it... yet ;-) 3. How does this expect to deal with user agents that look at *generated source* and not original source? I know, I mentionned this in my previous message. But as a side note, table for layout is not always a problem [1] (see checkpoints 5.3 and 5.4) . Anyway, what I'm saying is that we have skip links, increase contrast links, increase text-size links, why not adding a turn-off visual enhancement kind of link ;-) [1]: http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/make_an_html_list_look_like_a_table.asp --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Forget about Opera and Mac (and Windows Vista) ??
Taco Fleur wrote: Ahh I see, better undo all those fixes that weren't fixes ;-) How about giving it a height of 100%? If it's still Opera 9 you're trying to fix, then 'height: 100%' will work - at least in the window-version. Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Forget about Opera and Mac (and Windows Vista) ??
Yes, thats right. Will give this a go, thanks. -Original Message- From: listdad@webstandardsgroup.org [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gunlaug Sørtun Sent: Friday, 27 October 2006 12:59 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Forget about Opera and Mac (and Windows Vista) ?? Taco Fleur wrote: Ahh I see, better undo all those fixes that weren't fixes ;-) How about giving it a height of 100%? If it's still Opera 9 you're trying to fix, then 'height: 100%' will work - at least in the window-version. Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] DOM created table markup [was: Accessible Multi-Column List]
At 10/26/2006 06:31 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote: IMO, the goal should be to deliver the *cleanest* document possible, with the least amount of structural hack, hook, etc. You mean like 40 lines of JavaScript to morph the markup of a 16-item list? In the example I posted, one can't get cleaner than that. The only issue I see is that screen-readers end up with a table. Oops. Isn't accommodating non-visual user agents one of the primary reasons we're trying to drag the world wide web off that old table jones? To be fair, though, using JavaScript to change semantic markup into arbitrary glop for the sake of presentation doesn't necessitate the use of tables; that was just the way you built this particular demo. You could have simply split the list into two pieces and floated them left. http://www.tjkdesign.com/test/ on top of that, it is possible to make the list display across different number of columns without having to edit the markup nor the stylesheet; actually, there is *no* stylesheet ;) It gets better! No more pesky separation of structure from presentation from behavior! Now we can have them all neatly combined in a single file. How... compact! Disabling the script is all what is needed for screen-readers to speak the links in the proper sequence. So Jaws users have to disable your tool and all other JS helpers on the page in order to read the content in the proper sequence? I'm sorry, but how is this a step ahead? Think about it... ;-) I'm thinking mostly that you are one of the brighter lights in our firmament, and I love your ingenuity. Paul At 10/26/2006 07:19 PM, Christian Montoya wrote: 3. How does this expect to deal with user agents that look at *generated source* and not original source? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
