Re: [WSG] accessibility: images as navigation
A simple approach to this dilemma (really simple in fact) a href=my_link title=my_link_descriptionimg src=my_image alt=my_link_description //a If images are 'on' its works as you'd expect. If not, the alt text is shown as a link. Hurray! -- Joseph R. B. Taylor *Sites by Joe, LLC* /Custom Web Design Development/ http://sitesbyjoe.com (609) 335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] accessibility: images as navigation
There's also the empty span/span after the text in the link approach. You can use CSS to make the span show your image over the text real easy. Do a google search on the technique and you'll find plenty of examples. I don't remember who came up with it originally, but besides the extra empty element, its squeaky clean. Thierry Koblentz wrote: Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote: A simple approach to this dilemma (really simple in fact) a href=my_link title=my_link_descriptionimg src=my_image alt=my_link_description //a This is a JS approach that keeps the markup *clean* (no IMG elements, pure text). http://tjkdesign.com/articles/TJK_tipMenu_demo.asp Using IMGs in the markup and keeping the CSS styles works as well and makes it JS free. --- Regards, Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Joseph R. B. Taylor *Sites by Joe, LLC* /Custom Web Design Development/ http://sitesbyjoe.com (609) 335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Table conflicts in Firefox
Could just be default margin/padding. The default settings are a little
different across the board. Does the space persist when both
margin/padding are set to 0? It shouldn't. Here's some CSS that is a
nice way to set reliable defaults (e.g. setting margins on all block
level elements to 0 etc) - I always start with this basic file and build
on my page elements from there:
If there are items that don't work as expected or are superfluous feel
free to make it known.
/* CSS
--*/
body
{
font: 100% verdana,arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;
background: #FF;
}
table
{
font-size:inherit;
font-size: 100%;
}
select, input, textarea
{
font: 99% verdana,arial,helvetica,clean,sans-serif;
}
pre, code
{
font: 100% monospace;
}
body *
{
line-height: 1.22em;
}
h1, h2, h3, h4, h5, h6,
p,
blockquote,
form,
label, dl, ul, ol,
fieldset
{
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
}
dd
{
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
}
dt
{
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
font-weight: bold;
}
/* END CSS
*/
Charith De Silva wrote:
Hi all,
Can someone please explain me why firefox displays a space between tables.
I tested the same pages with the IE but it works fine.
thank you.
Charith.
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Re: [WSG] Semantics of P element (?)
Maybe this is an incorrect philosophy when approaching (X)HTML, but I always look at things in a more meaningful way when approaching semantics. If you were to ask an english major and a w3c specs author to define a paragraph, you'd get to very different answers, wouldn't you? I feel that as a web developer, its my job to marry those two worlds. I take boring (X)HTML documents, add a visual flavor to them in the hopes that both the machine and human can interact with the information painlessly. Examples? Consider the news entry. News entries are viewed in two ways - list format (summaries) and detail format. Each format would require different markup in my opinion. The list view could be coded as: dl dtMy Headline/dt ddDate/dd ddArticle Summary/dd ddLink/dd /dl I would opt to use an individual dl for each entry. Many here would argue this approach for one reason or another. However, a machine can interpret this inforamtion quite well, since it understands the relationships that the dl implies. For the detail view I would: h*My Headline/h* pDate, Category, Author etc/p pArticle with multiple p's and whatever else/p Again, in this format seems to outline the relationship of the informations best in this scenario. For me, when I'm coding pages I always make the unstyled boring document first. If that document looks the way it should naked, I know that I'm headed in the right direction. I don't nest other tags inside dt's or dd'd unless they are inline elements (img, a, span etc). I feel they should be individual units, just like th's and td's though many would argue this as well. The specs are what they are, they're not perfect, nor is the markup they describe. You want to subscribe to their recommended best practices, but the specs need to be looked at subjectively. They were written by people who are striving to create the most generic descriptions they can (while accurately techniquely describing the intentions) of something they didn't create in the first place. It's like the bible, if you're a christian you want to respect the official rules, but you don't want to over analyze the book word for word, as again, it was written by people who may not exactly understand the original intended purpose exactly My two cents, Joe Taylor http://sitesbyjoe.com Barney Carroll wrote: I somehow got the impression p stood for phrase... (?!) Mariusz Nowak wrote: Anyway I wonder how it really should be treated.. (I'm not 100% positive that my approach is right) or maybe both way are semantically valid to treat p as I do and more strictly as you do.. However due to lack of clear statement on it in w3c specs I doubt that there is a clear answer for that. Regards, Barney Carroll *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Joseph R. B. Taylor *Sites by Joe, LLC* /Custom Web Design Development/ http://sitesbyjoe.com (609) 335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Compliant pop ups
Fortunately, getting alternate content about the image to the user is a
no-brainer.
It will become a matter of making sure your markup has the appropriate
attributes (title, alt, longdesc) and add your javascript afterwards.
I haven't gone back and picked through the lightbox .js code to see if
it runs all the tests it should before running the effect, but I have a
feeling that a nice series of tests like:
--
if (document.getElementById) {
- or -
if (something a little more complex that a browser would handle but
screenreader would not) {
might result in the effect only running if javascript is fully (or
mostly) supported.
The optimal solution would probably add in the typical 'rel=lightbox[]'
to the images during the load events, so screenreaders would hopefully
not encounter it at all. At this point the 'rel' attribute is actually
going into the markup. This is pretty easy to work around thanks to the
DOM.
Again, a good understanding of JAWS javascript limits/support is
essential to come up with the solution. I myself was unable to find a
definitive list of events/calls that are supported/unsupported beyond
some testing of the 'onmouseover' attribute
Joseph R. B. Taylor
http://sitesbyjoe.com
Brad Pollard wrote:
Steve,
You mentioned that lightbox implementations are not accessible in that JAWs
does not read any of the displayed content I see this as a real problem
as the new approach to displaying images etc has been to use lightbox or
something similar.
Joe, it would be good to know whether setting focus makes a difference to
JAWs.
Anyone else got any ideas? I agree popups (in the traditional target=blah)
is an approach that should not be used for many reasons. So how do we tell
screenreaders a) to ignore the lightbox javascript and follow the href, OR
b) that new content is being displayed?
A great conversation this one. Will it end?
~ brad
- Original Message -
From: Chris Price [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Thursday, December 14, 2006 9:15 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Compliant pop ups
Joseph R. B. Taylor wrote:
You're right, many people do request them, but this is typically based
on past experience and believing that a popup is the only solution.
As the developer, its your job to either a) do what ever the client
wants, including using popups, or b) advise them of the pitfalls of
the technique.
From the other replies on this thread it would appear that, though
there are pitfalls with the pop-up, its not clear that there is an
adequate alternative.
Is there more lateral thinking required here? It seems like the cleverer
you get with your techniques the more potential hoops there are to jump
through.
If its hard to find an answer, maybe I'm asking the wrong question.
Should the question be:
'Do you have an accessible solution that satisfies all or most of the
requirements that are met by the use of a pop-up in a given situation'?
Kind Regards
--
Joseph R. B. Taylor
*Sites by Joe, LLC*
/Custom Web Design Development/
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609) 335-3076
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Re: [WSG] Compliant pop ups
On the statement of people requesting the pop-ups You're right, many people do request them, but this is typically based on past experience and believing that a popup is the only solution. As the developer, its your job to either a) do what ever the client wants, including using popups, or b) advise them of the pitfalls of the technique. I personally replaced popups withe one of the many lightbox flavors out there - if its images you want to popup, your covered - same with a little content. The nice thing about that technique is that it falls back to a regular link if javascript support is not there. I have never tested the lightbox effect on screenreaders - I have no idea how it comes across. On PDA's etc, the link is just followed with no effect so it works fine. My 2 cents, Joe Taylor http://sitesbyjoe.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We consistently encounter problems with popup windows during user testing, usually because the user does not realise that a new window has opened. There are then two problems; firstly the Back button doesn't work, but also it is common for the popup not to contain any navigation. The result is confusion. We see this a lot with screen reader users. Even though the screen reader does inform the user that a new window has opened, we find that the user often does not notice this warning because they are listening for the page title, number of links and heading etc. It is also a big problem for screen magnifier users. At anything over x3 magnification it is common for the popup to fill the whole window, and this can happen at lower magnification levels with large popups. The user has no way to know that they are now looking at a new window. When they scroll to the extremes of the page they may see the main window behind the popup but they can see so little of the page that they usually do not realise that it is a separate window. Steve Green Director Test Partners Ltd / First Accessibility www.testpartners.co.uk www.accessibility.co.uk Chris Price [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Alex Billerey wrote: Does this help any? http://www.accessify.com/tools-and-wizards/ Look for the link for the pop-up window generator. It doesn't actually because the generated html includes a target attribute. David answered my question but the issue it leaves me with is: many people find pop-ups very useful and often request them. What are the problems for people with javascript enabled browsers? Kind Regards *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Joseph R. B. Taylor *Sites by Joe, LLC* /Custom Web Design Development/ http://sitesbyjoe.com (609) 335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Compliant pop ups
Steve, Its interesting to hear that the original version isn't working. It's also a shame since its such a nice effect and solves so many other little problems. There are a bunch of implementations, such as: http://particletree.com/features/lightbox-gone-wild/ http://serennz.sakura.ne.jp/toybox/lightbox/ There's plenty more too, but they are all built pretty much the same - the Particle Tree demo is one I'm interested to know if it works any better on JAWS. I wonder if a fix can be applied, such as setting focus on the lightboxed content or something to help the JAWS users... Joe Taylor http://sitesbyjoe.com [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I have looked at http://www.huddletogether.com/projects/lightbox/ with JAWS 7.10 and it's not good. The overlay is displayed if the user clicks the link but JAWS does not read any of the content in the overlay. In fact the user won't have any idea that the page has changed. Do you have any other examples where this technique has been applied? Steve Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On the statement of people requesting the pop-ups You're right, many people do request them, but this is typically based on past experience and believing that a popup is the only solution. As the developer, its your job to either a) do what ever the client wants, including using popups, or b) advise them of the pitfalls of the technique. I personally replaced popups withe one of the many lightbox flavors out there - if its images you want to popup, your covered - same with a little content. The nice thing about that technique is that it falls back to a regular link if javascript support is not there. I have never tested the lightbox effect on screenreaders - I have no idea how it comes across. On PDA's etc, the link is just followed with no effect so it works fine. My 2 cents, Joe Taylor http://sitesbyjoe.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Joseph R. B. Taylor *Sites by Joe, LLC* /Custom Web Design Development/ http://sitesbyjoe.com (609) 335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
[WSG] IE Background Position Oops
Hey gang, I have a little CSS issue I can't seem to solve. To describe it simply: I'm using the old use an empty span inside the element for my image replacement technique along side sliding a background image behind my link for hover state effects. All works well in the browsers you'd expect it to, but of course IE6 has an issue. For some reason its leaves the background image in the hover statehmmm...and doesn't move it back to its predefined position! Here's the url: http://akolsonlimo.com/about.php If anyone is aware of this, (or if I'm just screwed up somehow) and knows what causes it please let me know thanks! -- Joseph R. B. Taylor *Sites by Joe, LLC* /Custom Web Design Development/ http://sitesbyjoe.com (609) 335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] IE Background Position Oops
Good call both of you - styling the a:hover did the trick! John Faulds wrote: I think you need to give IE something on a:hover as well as a:hover span otherwise the hover won't be triggered. On Tue, 12 Dec 2006 08:55:38 +1000, Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hey gang, I have a little CSS issue I can't seem to solve. To describe it simply: I'm using the old use an empty span inside the element for my image replacement technique along side sliding a background image behind my link for hover state effects. All works well in the browsers you'd expect it to, but of course IE6 has an issue. For some reason its leaves the background image in the hover statehmmm...and doesn't move it back to its predefined position! Here's the url: http://akolsonlimo.com/about.php If anyone is aware of this, (or if I'm just screwed up somehow) and knows what causes it please let me know thanks! -- Joseph R. B. Taylor *Sites by Joe, LLC* /Custom Web Design Development/ http://sitesbyjoe.com (609) 335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Semantics of news
I myself have been marking up new summaries with definition lists. Very
practical.
dl
dtMy Article Headline/dt
dd2006-12-09/dd
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
You can alter this format as well, like:
dl
dt2006-12-09/dt
dtHeadline for my Article/dt
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
Headings would be used to precede to news summaries all together, like:
h3My Site's latest Articles/h3
dl
dtMy Article Headline/dt
dd2006-12-09/dd
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
dl
dtMy Article Headline/dt
dd2006-12-09/dd
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
etc
Rob Kirton wrote:
The only time this wouldn't be a correct structure is if the first H3
was preceeded by an H1 and not an H2
It is slightly conterintuitive to place an H3 above an associted H2.
If the title is the most important fact, above that of date (seems
sensible). The use of H2 and H3 is fine
--
Regards
- Rob Kirton
Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk
Connecting to others: http://www.linkedin.com/in/robkirton
http://www.linkedin.com/in/robkirton
On 09/12/06, *Tim White* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi, list.
What do you think is the best semantic markup for such a structure
06.12.2006(date)
Here goes some title of the new,(example Manchester United Have Lost
Their Mojo)
{and here goes a couple of passages of text - excerpt or full text of
the news}
---
[snip]
Some popular CMS's use
h3{date}
h2{title}
p{content}/p
This is usually how I do it (or at least something similar).
But i don't think it is correct heading structure
Why don't you think this is a correct structure?
~ Tim
www.tjameswhite.com/blog http://www.tjameswhite.com/blog
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Re: [WSG] Semantics of news
Mike,
Thats an interesting point. I always thought that any given dt or
dd should hold one piece of information only. If nesting stuff inside
them like that is completely legit that certainly opens up a lot of
possibilities.
Consider this:
dl
dtimg src=house_photo.jpg //dt
dt123 Property Address/dt
dd3 Bedrooms | 1.5 Baths/dd
dd$150,000/dd
ddView Link/dd
/dl
This is how I've been marking up property lists (single list unit
shown), which is where my previous example was coming from. Your
example seems to capture the information relationship pretty well
thoughh
Mike at Green-Beast.com wrote:
I'm curious, Joseph, wouldn't that be better like this?
h2Our News/h2
dl
dt2006-12-09/dt
dd
h3News Headline/h3
pTeaser statement for the article./p
pLink to Full Story/p
/dd
/dl
Assuming of course this would be valid as it would be with any other kind of
list (I didn't check).
Respectfully,
Mike Cherim
http://green-beast.com/
- Original Message -
From: Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Sent: Saturday, December 09, 2006 11:42 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Semantics of news
I myself have been marking up new summaries with definition lists. Very
practical.
dl
dtMy Article Headline/dt
dd2006-12-09/dd
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
You can alter this format as well, like:
dl
dt2006-12-09/dt
dtHeadline for my Article/dt
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
Headings would be used to precede to news summaries all together, like:
h3My Site's latest Articles/h3
dl
dtMy Article Headline/dt
dd2006-12-09/dd
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
dl
dtMy Article Headline/dt
dd2006-12-09/dd
ddTeaser statement for the article/dd
ddLink to Full Story/dd
/dl
etc
Rob Kirton wrote:
The only time this wouldn't be a correct structure is if the first H3
was preceeded by an H1 and not an H2
It is slightly conterintuitive to place an H3 above an associted H2.
If the title is the most important fact, above that of date (seems
sensible). The use of H2 and H3 is fine
--
Regards
- Rob Kirton
Raising web standards : http://ele.vation.co.uk
Connecting to others: http://www.linkedin.com/in/robkirton
http://www.linkedin.com/in/robkirton
On 09/12/06, *Tim White* [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Hi, list.
What do you think is the best semantic markup for such a structure
06.12.2006(date)
Here goes some title of the new,(example Manchester United Have Lost
Their Mojo)
{and here goes a couple of passages of text - excerpt or full text of
the news}
---
[snip]
Some popular CMS's use
h3{date}
h2{title}
p{content}/p
This is usually how I do it (or at least something similar).
But i don't think it is correct heading structure
Why don't you think this is a correct structure?
~ Tim
www.tjameswhite.com/blog http://www.tjameswhite.com/blog
Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
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No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.432 / Virus Database: 268.15.15/580 - Release Date: 12/8/2006
12:53 PM
--
Joseph R. B. Taylor
*Sites by Joe, LLC*
/Custom Web Design Development/
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609) 335-3076
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[WSG] Off-Topic: Javascript for Dummies
Greetings and sorry for the off topic post.
On this page: http://essay.sitesbyjoe.com/create_account.asp I'm trying
to set focus on the first field in the form. It should be simple, but I
can't get the darn thing to work!
My javascript:
function create_account_focus() {
var my_field = document.getElementById(first_name);
//alert(my_field);
my_field.focus;
}
My HTML:
div
label for=first_nameFirst Name/label
input id=first_name name=first_name type=text
value=%=request(first_name)% class=stretch /
/div
Any clue as to why this wouldn't be working? Makes no darn sense!
Thanks!
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Re: [WSG] 100% height block for XHTML 1.1 in FireFox and Opera
Âîðîí wrote:
Good time of day.
Problem:
Can i create block which minimum height 100% of browser work area?
I create examle, wich work in IE. But in FF and Opera block's height is 0px;
How i can get 100% height in other browser's ?
HTML
!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC -//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.1//EN
http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml11/DTD/xhtml11.dtd;
htmlheadtitle/title
meta http-equiv=Content-Type content=text/html; charset=windows-1251/
link rel=stylesheet href=css/styles.css type=text/css/
/head
body
div id=warning_block
div id=top_left_bg_block
div id=top_right_bg_block
...more block's...
/div
/div
/div
/body/html
CSS:
BODY{
margin:0px;
padding:0px;
width:100%;
min-width:100%;
background: #113689 url(../img/bg_gradient.gif) 100% 0px repeat-y;
height:auto !important;
height:100%;
min-height:100%;
}
#warning_block{
height:auto !important;
height:100%;
min-height:100%;
}
#top_left_bg_block{
height:auto !important;
height:100%;
min-height:100%;
background: url(../img/top_left_bg.jpg) 0px 0px no-repeat;
}
#top_right_bg_block{
height:auto !important;
height:100%;
min-height:100%;
background: url(../img/top_right_bg.jpg) 100% 0px no-repeat;
}
__
Yours sincerely. Raven.
Night folk studio.
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You can also try:
html { height: 100%; }
Some browsers get remedied by adding that in. Remember that 100% only
applies to the visible view port not the height that the page (if
longer) may be.
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Re: [WSG] Site check: lot's of space where there shouldn't be any
Taco Fleur wrote: Good morning all, We have a page that is displaying an enormous amount of white where there shouldn't be any. I validated the page http://development.yellaterra.com.au:92/products/car-performance/product-detail/index.cfm?productCategoryIdentity=2modelIdentity=2 http://development.yellaterra.com.au:92/products/car-performance/product-detail/index.cfm?productCategoryIdentity=2modelIdentity=2 and it's fine. In Firefox however there is about 250px space between the Make: *British Leyland* Model: *A Series* and the header Cylinder Heads, I was wondering if anyone knew what is causing that? There are a few more issues on this page, but I'll stick with asking for help on the space for now. Thanks in advance for any help. Taco, It looks like a clear:right issue on your content there. It's simply dropping below the right menu. Try enlarging/shrinking the text and you'll see it move along with the height of the menu. The div above the heading where the trouble begins seems to behave, so you may want to consider moving your content either into that div or nesting everything into a div that handles the whole main column. I also noticed that your rollovers are being bad - disappearing on rollover until everything loads (IE7 and Firefox). I'm guessing your switching images instead of changing background positions on one image - bad Taco! -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Web Designer / Developer tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 note:Whatever your project, feel free to call or email me to chat about it. I'm always happy to advise you on any inquiries, make suggestions and provide you a quote. x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Site Review - intrep
Felix Miata wrote: I think the experience by high resolution users leaves something to be desired (Please note the disclaimer at the bottom of the setup page): http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/tmp/sc-samuri.html SS setup page http://mrmazda.no-ip.com/SS/samuri1.jpg high res linux/gecko 1.7 screenshot It's a shame people who pay plenty for high quality can't get it from pages like this designed for people who prefer or can only afford low quality. I wonder which group spends the most on travel? Wow, another positive comment from Felix..perhaps instead of just generic bashing against a site that is pretty nice (albiet little quirks here and there, bg image tiling on long pages etc) and shows a deal of effort. Before being completely offended by his comment on your site, take a look at his and you'll feel better and dismiss what he posted. I apologize for the above comments, but some people seem to enjoy instigating trouble from up on their crosses. This is a group about discussing best practices, recommended standards and applying them in a real world where we are up against those who don't understand or care. I'm not a student. I'm not a master. I'm a regular guy who feeds his family by building website for small businesses. I've never made the perfect site, but I know that each one gets a little closer. I've been applying XHTML/CSS (incorrectly for the zealots) for a couple years now and before that, yes, god forbid, I used tables etc... Moving forward, I also have a site that I would like you Mac/Linux folks to please take a peek at. I 've worked out most layout issues on the PC end and it renders the same on IE6, IE7rc1, FF and Opera 8.5. http://purdy.sitesbyjoe.com/default.asp Thanks in advance everyone, -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Web Designer / Developer tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 note:Whatever your project, feel free to call or email me to chat about it. I'm always happy to advise you on any inquiries, make suggestions and provide you a quote. x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] testing for mobile browsers
Kenny Graham wrote:
- browsing on a wifi enable mobile ('coz I don't have one)
any thoughts, comparisons, other options...
There is a free mobile browser call openwave. It's the browser many
phones use, at least the cheaper ones. It's identical to my phone so
a fair shake at how your site will come out. It treats XHTML Strict
with respect. Its a great start for testing although not completely
comprehensive.
http://developer.openwave.com/dvl/tools_and_sdk/phone_simulator/
I just love showing off well a rendered site on the phone to clients.
Just seeing a nice photo or two and good information at your
fingertips gets them all hot and heavy.
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Re: [WSG] font standards today
Guys, This is another one of these conversations/arguments that really get everyone fired up. I've now read a series of posts that are not much more than little quarrels - everyone ignore Felix's stylesheets - its really not worth it. Spend your time analyzing worthy sites' CSS. No offense Felix of course. I'm talking about CSS written by people who lead their field and are certainly experts. Their stylesheets are educational and always contain good bits to learn from. Now that we're all getting along (hopefully) lets consider the following truths when it comes to font standards. 1. Everyone's tastes are different. 2. Some people have better vision that others. 3. Some people like to set their Windows theme to be hot pink/brown with all Comic Sans for system fonts. I think this looks horrid. This person who set it disagrees. 4. Many people never change this stuff. 5. Browsers all work a little differently and have different default styles in place when none are indicated. 6. Chances are that this will not change anytime soon, since if they did work the same no market would exist for one to be preferred over the other. Just looking at those couple statements you can already see that the web is an uncontrollable environment. Back on the designer's end, the following have to be dealt with: 1. The client who hired you to build them a site wants it to match their existing identity, or become their new identity. 2. The client wants their site to look a certain way for audiences. The middle road between this webpage tug o' war is simple. 1. Please the client. 2. Adapt to the user. Allow text to be resized. Offer a way to change stylesheets if the chosen design may be difficult to absorb for some audiences (too wide, to grey, whatever). Those two simple things make all the difference and allow for all parties to be considered and hopefully happy. The funny thing is that this started as an inquiry as to recommended font families across the board. Again the answer has been said numerous times: font-family: Font I would choose, a font-face your system probably has that's close to my chosen font, serif or sans-serif as a backup in case the first two don't exist; On font size, I tend to use % width these days, rather than pixel or em units. Is this the advice of an expert? I'll admit no. But this is the advice some someone who has been involved in several hundred projects of all shapes and sizes and has probably made every possible design/code mistake that could be made, dealt with just about every CSS bug at one time or another, and seen all sorts of fads come and go in the design end, etc...yes. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Web Designer / Developer tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 note:Whatever your project, feel free to call or email me to chat about it. I'm always happy to advise you on any inquiries, make suggestions and provide you a quote. x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Semantic usage of th
Joe wrote: I recently ran into a project which required me to use a table to display relationships and comparisons between data. Say for example we are comparing nutritional content of various foods: Food Type Fat Calories Cholesterol Burger 15g 650 150mg Fish 2g 300 200mg Corn 3g 200 50mg I understand the th tag should be used on the items in the top row, but what about the row on the left? Are they also considered a header of the row? If so, wouldn’t ‘Food Type’ be a header of a header? What do you guys think? Use the scope attribute to indicate whether the th is attached to either. Examples: th scope=colFat/th - OR - th scope=rowBurger/th On the cell with Food Type, not sure - someone will tell you though. My guess would be: th scope=colFood Type/th since it is describing the items below it. -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Web Designer / Developer tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 note:Whatever your project, feel free to call or email me to chat about it. I'm always happy to advise you on any inquiries, make suggestions and provide you a quote. x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
Germ wrote: Just tell the client that you will do your job and he can do his own job. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- JP2 Designs http://www.jp2designs.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.4/402 - Release Date: 7/27/2006 Forget the soapbox talk. You can't expect to battle tables out of a client, especially when IE Mac is concerned. As some of the responses stated, tables are fine, just keep them to a minimum. You will of course want to mention the screen reader thing. Its ultimately the client's decision but you can't expect to force their hand. In practice, this whole debate comes down to the difference of a couple div tags or a a couple tr/td tabs. Just make it clean either way, do your best, get paid and email the client in 6 months with the latest accessibility law change / suit or whatever reminding them they should think about changing that minor issue of the site. Everyone's happy. Hurray for happiness! -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Web Designer / Developer tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 note:Whatever your project, feel free to call or email me to chat about it. I'm always happy to advise you on any inquiries, make suggestions and provide you a quote. x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Standards Table Layout
CK wrote: Hi, Perhaps I was vague. I need examples of good CSS/Table designs. I've got the CSS layout sites bookmarked, and visited to the point of fraying the pages :) CK On Jul 30, 2006, at 5:44 PM, Paul Novitski wrote: At 06:15 AM 7/30/2006, CK wrote: A client who is clinging to the web of yore, is still insisting on tables being used for layout. It is the misconception tables provide greater browser compatibility, the client supports IE 5.X for MAC OS. Actually, I think table-based layout DOES provide cross-browser consistency as your client maintains. The argument against tables for layout isn't that they don't render consistently cross-browser but that they don't fit non-tabular data semantically, they can obfuscate content for non-visual readers, their layouts are rigid and unresizable, and, because they hard-wire presentation in the HTML markup, they create a site-maintenance boondoggle down the road. Even if your client doesn't care about semantics and is insensitive to the needs of the visually impaired, you might be able to persuade them that their long-term website expenses will be reduced significantly if they let you separate content from presentation today. Unfortunately for your argument, your client's short-term web development expenses might be less if you use tables, unless you've already become good enough at CSS layout that you can whip Mac IE 5.x into line without hours of trial error. There are many sites that feature CSS layout examples. To know which ones can replace tables effectively for this project you'll need to define your layout goals. Which aspects of table-based layout does your client consider important? A list of those attributes will help point you to the appropriate CSS layout techniques that will satisfy you both. Regards, Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** Since I see your last request for clean table designs, is it an issue of your not being very strong with CSS? I mean, any big site out there, e.g. http://target.com will be made with tables and feature a nice layout. Your job is to simple copy the code, add a border to the tables, open in a GUI, remove the superfluous nested tables and use your CSS to fill in the gaps. -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Web Designer / Developer tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 note:Whatever your project, feel free to call or email me to chat about it. I'm always happy to advise you on any inquiries, make suggestions and provide you a quote. x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] New with a ?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all - I just joined today after having this site book marked for months, and I thank you for having me. I am currently redesigning my main site, which offers customized services and templates for Zen cart, phpbb, Wordpress, etc. My question is this - the design that I am working on has carried to a fixed width of 900px for the page. Now I do know that this won't display correctly at 800x600 because of the width - but is this really something I should worry about? Most new computers are set at least 1024x768 out of the box, and I believe that the majority of my target audience will be on these settings as well. What do the industry pros here think? Thanks for your input - I look forward to learning and growing with you all! Tina Starnes Owner CRS Designs ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.4/402 - Release Date: 7/27/2006 Most users today do have 1024 x 768. It is considered best practice to avoid horizontal scrolling when at a resolution of 800 x 600, though I sometimes break the rules on that one. As with everything in web design, there are a ton of variables to consider when deciding on widths etc. In the long run, the 900px width is okay. People here will dispute that to the bitter end of course - don't bother please, its wasted enough bandwidth here already. Its a matter of considering your intended audience. You don't hear anyone hear complain about http://barbie.com being in flash and not pure XHTML/CSS. Why? Because its for kids. If I'm designing a site thats aimed at wealthy college aged people, you can bet I'm going wide - at least 900px. Even that that width you can make the page flexible. Easiest course is an alternate style (high contrast etc), which by the way I'm guilty of never doing - whoa, better change that fast! -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Web Designer / Developer tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 note:Whatever your project, feel free to call or email me to chat about it. I'm always happy to advise you on any inquiries, make suggestions and provide you a quote. x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] non system fonts - WebDesign
I'd skip any attempt to install a font on a user's machine. As said though, you can pick any font you want, but the choices you stated are not typical to any machine. My advice is to check out the fonts that actually ARE installed on most system and start there, then offer a common choice (Verdana or something) and end it with a generic sans-serif or something to that effect. Here's a list of fonts found on most systems: http://www.codestyle.org/css/font-family/sampler-CombinedResultsFull.shtml -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **begin:vcard fn:Joseph R. B. Taylor n:Taylor;Joseph org:Sites by Joe, LLC adr:;;408 Route 47 South;Cape May Court House;NJ;08210;USA email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] title:Web Designer / Developer tel;work:609-335-3076 tel;cell:609-335-3076 note:Whatever your project, feel free to call or email me to chat about it. I'm always happy to advise you on any inquiries, make suggestions and provide you a quote. x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:http://sitesbyjoe.com version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Re: what do you use instead of embed
pdr Lists wrote: Hi Germ its just for a flash file which will act as the banner for the top of the webpage You will need the object … /object tag. Check out this excellent article ... I work this way, and code is widley supported by browsers, and passes validation. http://www.alistapart.com/articles/flashsatay/ thanks for links and help As for your second question: Also when i tried putting the a href tags on either side so that it was a link, it didnt work. any special reason?? I would think that it is because embed … /embed is a block-level elements, and a … /a is an inline element; From the W3: Generally, block-level elements may contain inline elements and other block-level elements. Generally, inline elements may contain only data and other inline elements. Inherent in this structural distinction is the idea that block elements create larger structures than inline elements. [http://www.w3.org/TR/1998/REC-html40-19980424/struct/ global.html#h-7.5.3] Regards, Peter -- Peter Dominic Ryan | raycity* : new media solutions : proven [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://raycity.com | mb: 0419 229 738 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** I was using the satay method as well, and its pretty good, until Opera renders both the object AND embed contents. Switch the swfobject and am good to go these days. Basically, there's no actual valid flash that works, sorry. There are methods to either display flash or alternative content, but thats about it. -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] html validation: exactly what is it good for?
My two cents... this is the analogy I give to clients when attempting to separate myself from the local standards-ignorant competition: Websites are like buildings. In every locale, a building code exists that standardizes the way buildings should be made. Without this code and its enforcement, we would have a real mess on our hands. The accessibility factor comes into play as well. The web is like a city with no enforced code, but with the code being developed with the eventual goal of enforcement. A simple Q and A: Can we foresee a time when compliant sites are a must? Yes. Do I have to build sites that conform to standards now? No. Is it wise to conform to standards? Yes. Are conforming sites more easily read by search engines and other devices? Yes. Does it take longer to build a compliant site? No. Are there sites that have to conform to a level of standards by law today? Yes. Does this guarantee better rankings? No. That simply leaves the argument that it is the right thing to do, especially looking ahead a few years and anticipating what it will take to build quality sites in the future. I don't want to speak for everyone, but the future certainly begins with valid code, be it HTML, XHTML, WAP or whatever your flavor. My clients appreciate this thinking, its shows that I actually care about there site beyond the handshake and payment. Its simply good business. -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] IE and image markup white space
Designer wrote: Dear Listees, I have a number of thumbnail images in a div, presented as three rows. (see [1] for example) My problem is that, in IE, I get a small horizontal line appearing in the gap between the images. Someone told me ages ago that the trick was to remove all whitespace between the lines of markup in the corresponding div and indeed that does solve the problem. However, it's a clumsy solution, and not a little tedious to implement. Is there a more recent (better) way to overcome this? [1] http://www.marscovista.fsnet.co.uk/kernow/menufiles/stone.html Many thanks Not that I'm aware of. IE also has some similar quirks when it comes to list items and their spacing being affected by the whitespace in your code. Another good one is the mystery 3 pixels that stick to the bottom of images when added with the img tag. The only cure I've found is adding display:block inline to fix it for sure. -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] email stripping out the css from tables?
Mathew Patterson wrote: I'd agree from a personal perspective - text is best for email. However, in a corporate setting HTML emails consistently outperform text only emails in marketing campaigns, so I can't see them going away any time soon. Mathew On 03/07/2006, at 6:45 PM, Mark Harris wrote: Can I be the fly in the ointment here and say don't!? (That is, don't do HTML email) ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** HTML emails with images etc... I have to make these things all the time, your best best is to use tables for layout, and place all your style definitions WITHIN the body tag, not the head tag. Inline styles are not necessary for the most part. Of course testing needs to be involved. Yes, this is a far cry from how a compliant web page would be built, but in the same respect this is a totally different animal altogether. Using that method has had pretty consistent results across most of the interfaces people use to read email. -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Mac / Linux Site Check Please
Greetings friends, I have a new site I'm working on and the design is nearly finished. Can I ask some of you mac/linux guys/gals to take a peek to make sure nothing breaks? http://essay.sitesbyjoe.com/test.htm No its not finished yet (select menu for example) but the items I'm concerned with are in place at this time. Thank you very much for your time, -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Form problem solving attempt 1 - how usable is it?
Guys and gals, I'm building an online employment application for a small business and they insist on using this long horrible form to which I need to recreate on the site. Due to the length of the form, I used javascript to swap through the sections, and without javascript there are links to each of the 9 sections and the whole form. Give me your thoughts on this so far and what could make it more usable for both ends. http://wildwood.sitesbyjoe.com/employment.asp Thanks, -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] selling web standards
I would say the safest arguments would be: 1. Separation of design and content - programmers can't deny the value of normalization which is the result, plus the ease of design changes on your end looking forward. 2. The other is accessibility / mobile devices. If you can state a case that mobile and other devices will interact with their stuff, well... My 2 cents, Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Pat Ramsey wrote: Jan, Outstanding site! That's going to be very helpful to me. Cheers! Patrick -- Pat Ramsey [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.southwestern.edu/~ramseyp ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.394 / Virus Database: 268.8.3/358 - Release Date: 6/7/2006 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Anyone know of an S5 editor?
If web-based administration is an option, FCKeditor has a nice built-in image uploader (text editor). Since she's going to be updating HTML, it might be easiest to whip up a backend and stick the editor in there for them to use. It produces (mostly) clean code out of the box (it is free), and all my non-tech clients use it along with backends I've written to successfully maintain their own sites. The details of what to do are beyond this response, just sending an option. Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mark Harris wrote: Hi y'all Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I'm wishing to persuade a client to produce accessible presentations by eschewing PowerPoint and using Eric Meyer's S5 templates but I'm running into the ease of use issue. The client is not at all adverse to the idea, especially as she'll save money on getting her PPTs converted for the web, but to really make the savings she needs to be able to still create her presentations herself. I have no problem as I hand-code, but the client is not at all geeky and wants a design tool with the ease of use of PowerPoint, and the ability to place images in the same way that PPT lets her. (I think I've weaned her off fancy-schmancy transitions for the moment) At a pinch, I'll settle for text only but I'd like to show her something that handles images as well. Does anyone know of an editor or tool that hits this spot? Mac or Windows would be best but I'll take anything, as I can run up a virtual machine on her Mac. Any pointers would be greatly appreciated. Cheers Mark Harris Technology Research and Consultancy Services Ltd Wellington, New Zealand ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Accessibility standards - for commercial consumption
Raymond, There is certainly an exemplary job done of making everything accessible to the utmost extreme. Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Patrick H. Lake wrote: Raymond Sonoff wrote: see what my four-year effort has encompassed toward achieving 100% Web accessibility and Web usability, all while conforming to W3C's xHTML 1.0 Strict, CSS, and WCAG Priority Levels 1, 2, and 3, inclusive recommendations on each and every page within the sonoffconsulting.com domain. A rather bold claim. For the interest of learning by example then, could you elaborate on how your site addresses the needs of users with dyslexia and cognitive disabilities in general? Are you using the clearest and simplest language possible? Are the PDFs you provide tagged PDFs? P ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] table or div
There are a number of ways to do this, but here is an easy one:
html
head
titleMy Title/title
style type=text/css
body{
margin: 10%;
font-family: Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 160%;
}
#wrap{
border: 1px solid #000;
}
#left{
float: left;
width: 47%;
}
#right{
margin-left: 50%;
}
/style
/head
body
div id=wrap
div id=leftContent for left side/div
div id=rightContent for right side/div
/div
/body
/html
Try that out as a foundation for what you're doing.
Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Ryan Moore wrote:
I’m wondering what is the best (most standard way) to line up two div’s
together and have a border surrounding both of them. The old way I
would have done it is:
table style=”border: solid 0.1em #000;”
tr
tdcontent 1/tdtdcontent 2/td
/tr
/table
Or would I be better of with a div way of:
div style=”border: solid 0.1em #000;”’
div/divdiv/div
/div
I tried the div way and it doesn’t surround the 2 div’s nested within.
So I guess I’d like to know he best way to make it work but work around
standards.
Ryan
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Re: [WSG] new site critique - extemely
Gang, There will always be opinions about text size and resolutions. I myself have been back and forth over the years. There is a greater truth to be considered though. As an analogy, consider a tree. The tree that bends in a storm will last much longer than a stiff tree. The winds will eventually break it. Websites are like trees, in order to survive through the various visitors/storms to our sites encounter, they need to bend to be able to ride our the storm. Considering the greater good of humanity, as designers we are obligated to create functional beauty. This includes being flexible as we are creating things for the most flexible media ever conceived. That is why we strive to do things like make flexible text, print stylesheets etc... Its simply the right thing to do, regardless of varying opinions. Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Warren Cardinal wrote: it's very interesting on this group that the technical people just want to complain about website designers not doing this and that with no regard to the intricacies and beauty of design. another point - is bestbuy.com http://bestbuy.com losing customers because their text size is small and you cannot resize it? I think NOT. If customers complain - and we all know they do - they would do something about it. If you want large text, decrease your resolution. On 5/25/06, *Steve Olive* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 25 May 2006 10:17 pm, Patrick Lauke wrote: Michael Persson its just that for 10 years there is nothing that moves regading screen sizes and accesability have to follow the smallest standard size in order to not be refused by visitors. Screen sizes have changed drastically in the last 10 years - from 14 = 15 = 17 = 19 +. The real problem is the teachings at schools, TAFE, uni, community college, mate down the road, etc haven't evolved with the advances in screen design. How many people say that they have trouble seeing small text sizes but haven't a clue how to change the font size of screen elements without changing the resolution? Ever thought that maybe it's because people's eyes didn't evolve over the last 10 years, so if somebody needs a lower resolution and large text size, they'll still need it regardless of technology? If you are worried about your eyes change the font size of elements or use the accessibility features built into every OS but keep the screen resolution high - it makes screen elements smooth! I dont think it work like that any longer, and HEY people need to buy screens and upgrade for god sake!!! See above. It's not a case of people not upgrading. If somebody needs and prefers their resolution low, they'll set their machine to that even on a large new 21 monitor. It's not an issue of people not buying/upgrading. As I said learn above ... to get the best out of your new 24 wide-screen LCD learn how to configure your system at the highest resolution and then adjust the font to a suitable size. Now you might got my point... /* Removed - I was being facetious */ Yes...real users stand in the way of your creativity, we get it. NO ... those with no vision stand in the way of creativity. P Patrick H. Lauke Web Editor / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Regards, Steve Bathurst Computer Solutions URL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au http://www.bathurstcomputers.com.au e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile: 0407 224 251 _ ... (0) ... / / \ .. / / . ) .. V_/_ Linux Powered! -- Regards, Steve Bathurst Computer Solutions URL: www.bathurstcomputers.com.au http://www.bathurstcomputers.com.au e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile: 0407 224 251 _ ... (0) ... / / \ .. / / . ) .. V_/_ Linux Powered! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints
Re: [WSG] Accessibility and Browsers (N4.x)
To expand upon that concept, using a link rel= in your HTML is a fine thing to do. Within that stylesheet you called, use the @import to grab the actual stylesheet. This also allows you to easily break up your stylesheets into managable fragments, as well as add/remove without any duplication. You could have: @import url(head.css); @import url(nav.css); etc.. Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Geoff Pack wrote: Katrina wrote: Is it recommended to continue to use work-arounds to ensure accessibility in older browsers? What work-arounds? Just filter your stylesheets to prevent older browsers seeing them, and you're done. I use a two step stylesheet to do this: html: link rel=stylesheet type=text/css media=screen title=Default href=screen.css screen.css: @import globalNav.css; @import main.css; etc... This makes it easy to split the css into modules, and to change which browsers are filtered without having to change any of the html. Change double to single quotes to exclude IE/Mac as well. cheers, Geoff. == The information contained in this email and any attachment is confidential and may contain legally privileged or copyright material. It is intended only for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient of this email, you are not permitted to disseminate, distribute or copy this email or any attachments. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete this email from your system. The ABC does not represent or warrant that this transmission is secure or virus free. Before opening any attachment you should check for viruses. The ABC's liability is limited to resupplying any email and attachments == ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables - you can still use them in web design article
Thats exactly the point. There are extremists fighting both sides. Me, I strictly use CSS, never tables (though I once did), and I'm confident enough these days that I use hacks VERY VERY infrequently, as I know the issues to expect with my design choices long before I turn on the text editor. The standards cause is good and just. An analogy can be made for almost any other industry, and the outcome would be the same. The standards will win over, because its just logical. Do to that fact, however eventual and far off it may seem, my personal choice is to take the standards approach and only use CSS for layouts, regardless. Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Rob Mientjes wrote: On 16/05/06, Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Design choices are left to the designer. Rewards and consequences will eventually follow, whichever path is chosen. But that's what this is all for, all this standards-focused fighting for the cause: to aide people in choosing the right path for their needs. Nowadays with the proper support, the proper workarounds and the proper compromises, there is very little room for table-based layouts. Of course, that's all just my opinion, but I can show enough examples to prove this statement. But that's not the intention. Extremism is unforgivable and I'm refraining from even invoking the slightest bit of extremism in anyone posting to this list. -Rob. N���.�Ȩ�X���+��i�� n�Z�֫v�+��h��y�m�쵩�j�l��.f���.�ץ�w�q� (��b��(��,�)උazX����)��i ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables - you can still use them in web design article
My last response play in the tables/css ping-pong match that never ends. Yes, we all acknowledge that tables are most stable when used sparingly. Yes, CSS has a ways to go to enjoy the same stability. However, as we are all here discussing standards, is it not one goals of the standards movement to completely separate content, presentation and functionality? Is it not true, that the complete separation will offer the greatest flexibility that is part of the bigger picture of the information on the internet and it's foreseeable future? CSS handling the presentation layer of information is part of this future. Tables handling presentation disrupts this separation. Of course it is possible that I'm retarded and have misinterpreted everything I've come to believe about the standards movement Cheers, Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Andrew Cunningham wrote: Kevin Futter wrote: On 17/5/06 10:57 AM, Andrew Cunningham [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This ability can be used to develop a template which is direction neutral, ie the same template can be used irregardless of directionality of the page. irregardless? Surely you jest ... LOL, as to jesting? Yes AND no A poorly internationalized and over brudened table layout may have problems with UI mirroring. But it is possible to use tables to design a layout that will support UI mirroring. With CSS on the other hand ... I prefer templates and layouts i can use with any language. Today I might need Amharic and Pashto, tomorrow maybe Assyrian, Urdu, Khmer, Lao and Yoruba. Good use of CSS is essential to developing well internationalized web sites. Unfortunately, from the point of view of developing internationalized user interfaces, there's a lot lacking in CSS 2.1. The very idea that Andrew ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables - you can still use them in web design article
I have to chime in. The thing to remember in the long run is that there are intended purposes for everything. Tables have a purpose, CSS has a purpose, all the elements have a purpose. As a designer, I started using massive nested tables (didn't we all circa 1998?). I then discovered CSS (2002-2003), and realized its benefits, but still used tables for layouts due to all the box model problems I didn't know how to deal with. These days I always use CSS for layouts. I still use tables for tabled data. I haven't found a good reason to use tables for layout since. In fact, once (recently) I thought I'd be lazy and lay out a 3 column design with tables -- I thought it would be quicker (I know, bad Joe). Low and behold I can't even work with tables in layout anymore nearly as effectively as I can with CSS. It's more flexible in every way hands down. Those who haven't arrived at this place yet and are clinging to tables and using minor display issues as an excuse, you're really in for a treat when you finally make the switch. All the good things they say about CSS are true. An exciting future is ahead for those who are willing to dive in. I love writing CSS, and finding workarounds for display issues. I've gotten pretty good at it at this point (obviously I still have a ways to go...) Think about it. The standards gurus wouldn't be endorsing it if it weren't really the future. My 2 cents, Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Re: XHTML Strict - top margin
I also noticed the guillotine bug in IE 6 on WinXP.
If you scroll down the page you posted, then scroll back up, some of the
left links disappear. This is easy to fix. Just add a height value
(like 1%) to the element containing the floats.
Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Gunlaug Sørtun wrote:
Elle Meredith wrote:
My left div is floating and I think that because of that, only in IE,
my iframe is pushed below the content of my left div. Again, why
does this happen?
Page is at: http://farmpeacelove.com/gb/index.php
1: The #wrapper is too narrow, and IE/win don't know how to overflow.
That's what causes the iframe to be pushed down below the float.
2: You have triggered the 'em font-resizing bug' in IE/win, which makes
things even worse if font-resizing is applied.
Partial fix, add:
#main {_margin-right: -250px;}
#langlinks {_margin-right: 50px;}
#entries {position: relative;}
html {font-size: 100%;}
...and replace the 'leading underscore' hack I've used with any 'IE/win
only' hack you may prefer.
The result should be: IE6 ≈ Firefox 1.5.0.2 = Opera 9beta. At least
that's what I get at my end :-)
regards
Georg
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Re: [WSG] XHTML Strict - top margin
These spaces are usually caused by margins on the neighboring elements
like h1's and paragraphs, try removing margins on those elements.
Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Elle Meredith wrote:
I've decided to change from xhtml transitional to strict and now for
some reason, even tough I declared
body {margin:0; padding:0;}
p {margin-top:0;}
my content still doesn't stick to the top.
Would you know Why?
TIA,
Elle
waznelle.com
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Re: [WSG] Linux and mac site check please
Thanks for the checks everyone! Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tom Livingston wrote: On 4/27/06 1:27 AM, Joseph R. B. Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I hope a couple of you nice linux and mac users take a peek at this page? http://ti.sitesbyjoe.com Tested on Opera 9 weekly and Safari 2.0.3, and looks nice. No problems with +4 font scale in Safari. Tight layout! ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] Linux and mac site check please
Greetings everyone, I hope a couple of you nice linux and mac users take a peek at this page? http://ti.sitesbyjoe.com If you see any layout bugs, please let me know off-list. Thank you very much for your time, -- Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] input
Whats to review? a logo, 4 links and badges because you wrote 3 lines of valid XHTML. It's a really great splash page. Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Shawn J. Cassick wrote: http://24.130.225.20/DWS/index.htm just lookin for some input on splash page until site in launched. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Based on ala Hybird -dropdown -menu
YOu may want to try that again on IE. I'm using Win2K and IE 6.0 and your tabs are disappearing, then after a random delay, reappearing. Could be caused by the technique you are using to swap the background image of the links. If you are just chainging the backgorund image using CSS, you should instead make a big backgorund image and just change its position on rollover instead. Joseph R. B. Taylor Sites by Joe, LLC http://sitesbyjoe.com (609)335-3076 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Antti Tuppurainen wrote: Hi All! Sorry for the douplepost (Gmail sended the email when I clicked space!!) Just want to share my expreiences with ALA's hybird dropdown -menu: http://www.alistapart.com/articles/hybrid I have just created a sceleton http://www.cadon.fi/hybrid/hybrid.html and I think It fits quite nize. Only hack I needed to do was the container below the navigation. IE cleared nizely after, but firefox didn't, so I needed to write margin-top: 60px !important; margin-top: 0;. Can it be done without that? Best Regards, Antti Tuppurainen | System Specialist Idea Development ID oy | http://www.idbbn.fi Blog: http://antti.tuppurainen.fi ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] margins question
Another alternative is this:
body{text-align: center;}
#content{margin: 0 auto; width:600px; text-align:left;}
Take that, IE!
Joseph R. B. Taylor
Sites by Joe, LLC
http://sitesbyjoe.com
(609)335-3076
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Thierry Koblentz wrote:
Chris Lamberson wrote:
So I would like my content box to float around in the center of the
browser window no matter what size it is, which is easy if I do
something like this:
#content {
margin: 0 auto;
width: 600px;
}
This, of course, works in any standards-compliant browser, thus
leaving our favorite odd-man (IE6) out. How could I go about making
this same effect work in IE6?
Make sure your page doesn't put IE 6 in Quirks mode.
Regards,
Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com
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