Approval Workflow
Hello Ubuntufolks, I am a member of the Austrian Loco Team. I have a few things to say about the approval work which is done by the council. First of all I want to say, that Ubuntu was a great distribution and still is my favorite one out there. What I think about this approval process is, that a lot of work, from people who really are committed to Ubuntu, is getting bashed. I don´t think that this is the right way and I know that in former times there was nearly no bureaucracy in the Ubuntu community. Everyone worked for the community, not for reapproval, only because they were convinced of Ubuntu and wanted to share this expirience with their friends and in general other people. I know some guys, who have their work, make their studies AND care about the ubuntu project. They do that for free without asking for payment or asking for anything else. Thats why I think that its not fair that a council judge that people. @Loco Council: This is not an attack at you personally. Its my opinion (personal opinion, not an official statement from our Loco) and I think everyone should at least say what he is thinking. Best Regards Philipp Stiegler -- loco-contacts mailing list loco-contacts@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/loco-contacts
Re: Approval Workflow
On 23/07/10 13:52, Philipp Stiegler wrote: Hello Ubuntufolks, I am a member of the Austrian Loco Team. I have a few things to say about the approval work which is done by the council. First of all I want to say, that Ubuntu was a great distribution and still is my favorite one out there. mine too What I think about this approval process is, that a lot of work, from people who really are committed to Ubuntu, is getting bashed. I don´t think that this is the right way and I know that in former times there was nearly no bureaucracy in the Ubuntu community. Everyone worked for the community, not for reapproval, only because they were convinced of Ubuntu and wanted to share this expirience with their friends and in general other people. it isn't about bashing anything it is about making sure everything is going well and sharing ideas and best practices. Approved teams are doing great stuff and can have resources chucked at them from time to time and can be expected to be organised enough to cope with it. Non approved teams can be provided with help in organising themselves. I know some guys, who have their work, make their studies AND care about the ubuntu project. They do that for free without asking for payment or asking for anything else. Thats why I think that its not fair that a council judge that people. great! Their wonderful work should be shown off to the council and, more importantly, the other locos so we can see their awesomeness, and copy what they are doing. Alan. -- loco-contacts mailing list loco-contacts@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/loco-contacts
Re: Approval Workflow
I believe the LoCo Council Team is getting a bad reputation, that is not fair to them. The LoCo Council Team is there to *help* the LoCos with their struggles. After some turnover, they are doing a tremendous job to step by step putting processes in place that in the end help the LoCos. I do not see any attempt, or even unintentional way the efforts of the LoCos or members thereof are bashed. Re-approval is a checklist, any LoCo should do by themselves, doesn't matter if there is a re-approval process or not. Making this a standing process rather helps than hurts, since it comes with help and advice. By no means are LoCo restricted to what they do, or how they do it. A lot of the guidelines are just experiences what has worked before. They are not static, and do not create some kind of test which LoCo who have found a different way to function will fail. Furthermore, the approval by itself is not important for any LoCo to function. Approval has the incentive to be called official and get a little bit more resources from Canonical. This has the advantage for Canonical to be able to be accountable to itself and the Ubuntu community how it uses the resources that are also available in part because of the work of the community. Accountability is not a bad thing. Help is not a bad thing either. It helps to reflect and see where things can be improved to the benefit of everybody. Therefore, I want to say thanks to the LoCo Council Team for the hard work, they are putting in this, and for all the help they have already given our LoCo, and I appreciate that this is a place where I know I get good advice and help when we need it. I hope everybody will see this, and also help, because we are a community helping each other and other. I also hope that it is possible to overcome some of the misunderstanding and perceptions around this issue. Please continue to do you tremendous work! Ralph (txwikinger) On 07/23/2010 08:52 AM, Philipp Stiegler wrote: Hello Ubuntufolks, I am a member of the Austrian Loco Team. I have a few things to say about the approval work which is done by the council. First of all I want to say, that Ubuntu was a great distribution and still is my favorite one out there. What I think about this approval process is, that a lot of work, from people who really are committed to Ubuntu, is getting bashed. I don´t think that this is the right way and I know that in former times there was nearly no bureaucracy in the Ubuntu community. Everyone worked for the community, not for reapproval, only because they were convinced of Ubuntu and wanted to share this expirience with their friends and in general other people. I know some guys, who have their work, make their studies AND care about the ubuntu project. They do that for free without asking for payment or asking for anything else. Thats why I think that its not fair that a council judge that people. @Loco Council: This is not an attack at you personally. Its my opinion (personal opinion, not an official statement from our Loco) and I think everyone should at least say what he is thinking. Best Regards Philipp Stiegler -- loco-contacts mailing list loco-contacts@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/loco-contacts
Re: Approval Workflow
On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 14:52 +0200, Philipp Stiegler wrote: I know some guys, who have their work, make their studies AND care about the ubuntu project. They do that for free without asking for payment or asking for anything else. Thats why I think that its not fair that a council judge that people. Hi all, Just to give a somewhat impartial view on this, because our LoCo Team is still a way off of being approved I think, and this is something we're working towards... 1. I certainly don't think the Council is judging people as individuals, but rather how those individuals come together as a team and organise themselves, which is quite different in my opinion. There may be a number of individuals on a team who are a shining example of commitment and hard work, but this does not necessarily mean that the team is performing well. And when the team does not meet required standards, this is also not necessarily a bad reflection on the individuals who are doing their best. 2. Team accountability and organisation is vital, particularly when additional resources are being given to them, so I personally feel that the approval process is important. I think how this is viewed depends on individual perspectives, but I'm sure it is not intended to discourage people, but quite the opposite; it gives teams something to aim for both initially, and in the long-term. 3. Speaking from the experiences we've had in our team: There have been times when the team has nearly fallen apart, due to lack of enthusiasm and personal clashes among other things. The main reason we have tried so hard to keep things together is obviously for the overall well-being of Ubuntu and the community in our area, but at least one other reason was knowing that we have goals to achieve, including reaching the point where we're ready for approval. Knowing that we're not just doing our own thing and that in the long run we have expectations to meet, is one of the things that has helped motivate us to keep things together. 4. For Teams facing re approval, I think this is just as important. I can think of any number of voluntary commitments that are started with good intentions but never continue or reach completion simply because people have to deal with other issues in their lives and at some point might lose interest. Having to be approved repeatedly ensures that Teams maintain their commitment and continue to deliver results. In summary, I do think that even voluntary groups need a certain amount of policing to maintain standards, but this should be seen as motivation, rather than discouragement. It should encourage us to keep getting better and better, both as teams and as individuals, as we reach for the goals that have been set. Regards, Neil Team Contact Zimbabwe LoCo -- loco-contacts mailing list loco-contacts@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/loco-contacts
Re: Approval Workflow
Phillip, I agree with your point of view. Daniel On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 14:52 +0200, Philipp Stiegler wrote: Hello Ubuntufolks, I am a member of the Austrian Loco Team. I have a few things to say about the approval work which is done by the council. First of all I want to say, that Ubuntu was a great distribution and still is my favorite one out there. What I think about this approval process is, that a lot of work, from people who really are committed to Ubuntu, is getting bashed. I don´t think that this is the right way and I know that in former times there was nearly no bureaucracy in the Ubuntu community. Everyone worked for the community, not for reapproval, only because they were convinced of Ubuntu and wanted to share this expirience with their friends and in general other people. I know some guys, who have their work, make their studies AND care about the ubuntu project. They do that for free without asking for payment or asking for anything else. Thats why I think that its not fair that a council judge that people. @Loco Council: This is not an attack at you personally. Its my opinion (personal opinion, not an official statement from our Loco) and I think everyone should at least say what he is thinking. Best Regards Philipp Stiegler signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature -- loco-contacts mailing list loco-contacts@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/loco-contacts
Re: Approval Workflow
My $0.02 CAD... I love Ubuntu. I think the LoCo Council is awesome. Some of my personal hero(in)es live there. I think LoCo's around the world are awesome. Canonical rocks. There! I'm biased and I'm open about it. Having confessed all that, if I were the person in charge, I would be asking the the entire community the following questions: 1) Why aren't there more LoCo's? (Our installed base is ~ 12 million.) 2) What are we doing to encourage LoCo's to sprout up everywhere as quickly as possible? A weak answer to #2 is We're reviewing all the current teams. That's an efficiency/effectiveness answer, not a marketing answer. I think (and have said) that the re-approval process is a good idea but at the wrong time, diverting very talented people (the council and LoCo leaders) into an effort that has a lower return on investment than marketing Ubuntu and ensuring its spread everywhere, i.e. ensuring that Ubuntu crosses the chasm. My humble opinion is that the Ubuntu project has about 12 months to get this right. That's our market window. Let's get very focused on growth. We'll have a day in the future when we can worry about being too big, or having too much market share. Further documentation: Bug reports: 392986) LoCo's Are Not Lo Enough https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/392986 497051) Scarce community leadership resources allocated to non-problems https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu-community/+bug/497051 OpenWeek session: Energizing an Ubuntu Community https://wiki.ubuntu.com/MeetingLogs/openweekLucid/EnergizeCommunity Cheers, Randall Ubuntu Vancouver LoCo -- On 07/23/2010 08:52 AM, Philipp Stiegler wrote: Hello Ubuntufolks, I am a member of the Austrian Loco Team. I have a few things to say about the approval work which is done by the council. First of all I want to say, that Ubuntu was a great distribution and still is my favorite one out there. What I think about this approval process is, that a lot of work, from people who really are committed to Ubuntu, is getting bashed. I don´t think that this is the right way and I know that in former times there was nearly no bureaucracy in the Ubuntu community. Everyone worked for the community, not for reapproval, only because they were convinced of Ubuntu and wanted to share this expirience with their friends and in general other people. I know some guys, who have their work, make their studies AND care about the ubuntu project. They do that for free without asking for payment or asking for anything else. Thats why I think that its not fair that a council judge that people. @Loco Council: This is not an attack at you personally. Its my opinion (personal opinion, not an official statement from our Loco) and I think everyone should at least say what he is thinking. Best Regards Philipp Stiegler -- loco-contacts mailing list loco-contacts@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/loco-contacts
Re: Approval Workflow
There were some great thoughts in this thread... I think the LoCo council is doing a good job at ensuring activity and and engagement amongst Local Community Teams. I also think a little more clarity could be introduced to one part of the application. I know for New York State's original approval some 'standards' were loosely defined and caused some hard feelings amongst some members. The specific area is activity level. 1. Activity: The wiki states: What have you done so far? Have you done any advocacy, translations, exhibitions, support or other activities? We recommend you have done at least three activities before you apply for approval. A recent post on the list stated: The team should have demonstrated a significant and sustained contribution to the Ubuntu community, from participating in a ubuntu-related project, documentation, localization, development (bug reports and packaging, marketing, participating in FOSS events, release parties. When New York Stated applied for Approval in early 2009 we had more than three events under our belt, but were told that the LoCo Council wanted to ensure that they saw sustained activity. I think the wiki is too specific and the information posted on the mailing list far superior, but perhaps an improvement would be to say that a team should show a consistent level of activity over the course of six months with at least three of the following events: - Launch Party - FOSS convention booth - Technology convention booth - Community advocacy events - Install Fest - etc - These thoughts are just my .02, but I feel most of the process is clear. This one part is also, IMHO, the most critical in the evaluation and re-evaluation process. Charles New York State Local Community -- loco-contacts mailing list loco-contacts@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/loco-contacts
Re: Approval Workflow
Thank you Niel, What if you are not an approved Team do you still get any input. Teams that have been Approved such as the Dallas Team from Texas,USA. and Houston Team have activity but are not recognized as part of Ubuntu approved Loco Teams. These Teams show and have shown activity have been active in IRC and have well organized information on several sites. Ubuntu insists on many things but as times change these rules have been interpreted differently by different members of the Ubuntu Community as well as some leaders. But I am not pointing fingers (that is not my point). This sometimes happens as structure and infrastructure grow. The point I first got snagged on was the For the Community catch phrase. In some ways some communities may seem disorganized more than others. Here is why: Education Culture Belief Time Not every member here need possess a PHD from Purdue. Some people spend time on project for the experience (as a Student), or need. If it becomes a burden to Form a Team I believe that is whole heartedly against the intention and meaning of Ubuntu. Yes mentorship and a community backing sounds great but why disqualify Teams unless they don't follow Ubuntu tradition, not policy. I understand that part of it may be a resource issue. That is simple only provide discs when asked a ticket to say I may have 40 people gathering may I request some i.e.-lanyard, discs, stickers . I am no Team Admin or the like, but I wanted to reply. Ubuntu is a good thing. I hope that this didn't offend the ewok masters that be. Cordially, Daniel Van`Stone On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 16:16 +0200, Neil Coetzer wrote: On Fri, 2010-07-23 at 14:52 +0200, Philipp Stiegler wrote: I know some guys, who have their work, make their studies AND care about the ubuntu project. They do that for free without asking for payment or asking for anything else. Thats why I think that its not fair that a council judge that people. Hi all, Just to give a somewhat impartial view on this, because our LoCo Team is still a way off of being approved I think, and this is something we're working towards... 1. I certainly don't think the Council is judging people as individuals, but rather how those individuals come together as a team and organise themselves, which is quite different in my opinion. There may be a number of individuals on a team who are a shining example of commitment and hard work, but this does not necessarily mean that the team is performing well. And when the team does not meet required standards, this is also not necessarily a bad reflection on the individuals who are doing their best. 2. Team accountability and organisation is vital, particularly when additional resources are being given to them, so I personally feel that the approval process is important. I think how this is viewed depends on individual perspectives, but I'm sure it is not intended to discourage people, but quite the opposite; it gives teams something to aim for both initially, and in the long-term. 3. Speaking from the experiences we've had in our team: There have been times when the team has nearly fallen apart, due to lack of enthusiasm and personal clashes among other things. The main reason we have tried so hard to keep things together is obviously for the overall well-being of Ubuntu and the community in our area, but at least one other reason was knowing that we have goals to achieve, including reaching the point where we're ready for approval. Knowing that we're not just doing our own thing and that in the long run we have expectations to meet, is one of the things that has helped motivate us to keep things together. 4. For Teams facing re approval, I think this is just as important. I can think of any number of voluntary commitments that are started with good intentions but never continue or reach completion simply because people have to deal with other issues in their lives and at some point might lose interest. Having to be approved repeatedly ensures that Teams maintain their commitment and continue to deliver results. In summary, I do think that even voluntary groups need a certain amount of policing to maintain standards, but this should be seen as motivation, rather than discouragement. It should encourage us to keep getting better and better, both as teams and as individuals, as we reach for the goals that have been set. Regards, Neil Team Contact Zimbabwe LoCo signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature -- loco-contacts mailing list loco-contacts@lists.ubuntu.com https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/loco-contacts
