Re: vihuela vs guitar
This isn't an answer to my question, I don't care which is older - that was just a guess. I believe we know that the provenance of the lute was as a melody instrument played with a quill plectrum. I don't know the provenance of the guitar tuning. The question was this, why the difference when they are almost the same? Removing the first string isn't the solution, it is merely a description (and then one has to have a seventh tuned a fourth below the sixth to make the six strings - and now we'll just rename them from 2 to 7 to 1 to 6, as we don't have a 1st anymore). That is trivial. The question is this. The six strings of the Renaissance lute (neglecting the lower strings) and those of the guitar are all tuned to fourths, except one that is a third. The choice of where the third is is different between them. Why? Did the guitar develop after polyphony? Is the tuning a matter of ease of chording? After all the melody lute could have had a tuning by sixths, sevenths or octaves. Just a bit longer run on a course for a scale. It would be a pretty good bet that the choice of fourths has to do with the four fingers for melody work (can we call it monophonic?). And that the one third course to course interval was practical in hand movement. So why the difference as to where it is for guitar and lute. My guess, as one who plays both, is that the shift made chording easier for harmony -and that the guitar evolution came when polyphony was already extant, whereas the lute stayed with the traditional tuning intervals that worked for melody. Best, Jon Given that the lute tuning seems to be older (can't prove that, but it seems to be), It is not older. Guitar tuning is contained within Lute's (just remove 1st string). RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
FW: But (largely OT)
Many thanks Howard, Hours of research on this one, I'm sure. I was impressed by the paragraph... In Gabrieli's Dulcis Jesu a couple of soloists sing the first four words of the text for rather a while before the choir enters dramatically on and. Trying to imagine a majestic choir in some grand cathedral opening their singing in perfect harmony on the word 'and' -All that came to mind just then was, -'And they call it puppy lo-o-o-ove...' (Donny Osmond) I agree, sentences can start with And, or But, etc. Providing it immediately follows a sentence of description or introduction. You should not start a paragraph with such a word. Keep smiling. Ron (UK) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: vihuela vs guitar
This isn't an answer to my question, I don't care which is older - that was just a guess. I believe we know that the provenance of the lute was as a melody instrument played with a quill plectrum. I don't know the provenance of the guitar tuning. There is no provenance. Again, it is contained WITHIN lute tuning. The question was this, why the difference when they are almost the same? Removing the first string isn't the solution, it is merely a description (and then one has to have a seventh tuned a fourth below the sixth to make the six strings - and now we'll just rename them from 2 to 7 to 1 to 6, as we don't have a 1st anymore). That is trivial. You are wrong, it is not merely a description, but also the method by which it was obtained. The question is this. The six strings of the Renaissance lute (neglecting the lower strings) and those of the guitar are all tuned to fourths, except one that is a third. The choice of where the third is is different between them. Why? Did the guitar develop after polyphony? Is the tuning a matter of ease of chording? After all the melody lute could have had a tuning by sixths, sevenths or octaves. There is no difference in tuning between lute and and early guitar. You look at from the position of the 3rd in relation to the fingerboard, while you should be looking at the position of the fingerboard in relation to the 3rd. And YES, the presence of the 3rd is essential to finger a few notes simultaneously in harmony, otherwise you left hand will be screwed. It would be a pretty good bet that the choice of fourths has to do with the four fingers for melody work (can we call it monophonic?). And that the one third course to course interval was practical in hand movement. So why the difference as to where it is for guitar and lute. My guess, as one who plays both, is that the shift made chording easier for harmony -and that the guitar evolution came when polyphony was already extant, whereas the lute stayed with the traditional tuning intervals that worked for melody. See above, and look in Roger Blumberg's (music theory as fingering) site http://thecipher.com RT Given that the lute tuning seems to be older (can't prove that, but it seems to be), It is not older. Guitar tuning is contained within Lute's (just remove 1st string). RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: vihuela vs guitar
Deat Jon, snip I believe we know that the provenance of the lute was as a melody instrument played with a quill plectrum. I don't know the provenance of the guitar tuning. One of the reasons I have read (can't remember where) for the triumph of the violin family over the gambas is that the tuning in fifths is more suitable for melody whereas the fourths basis is more suitable for chords. I am not sure I understood why, but I am sure it was written by someone who did ;-) The provenance (ancestor?) of the lute may well have been a melody instrument played with a plectrum, but that in itself doesn't explain the tuning. The oud is still basically tuned in fourths and is still basically a melody instrument. Yours, Tony To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: ARCHLUTE CONTEST
What will it take for lutenists to take contemporary music for their instrument seriously, I wonder: It is a very difficult question. Most contemporary lute music is just plain silly. I make some exception for Alain's and Paulo's stuff, which is of limited modernity. And that is good thing because early instruments are just not designed for dissonance. Should it come from the top - our virtuoso artists, like Ron McFarlane, or from the base? Should it come at all? Who will be our Segovia? We also need at least someone like Gavin Bryars to pull it off. GB's sensibility might lend itself to the lute... RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: ARCHLUTE CONTEST
What will it take for lutenists to take contemporary music for their instrument seriously, I wonder: Should it come from the top - our virtuoso artists, like Ron McFarlane, or from the base? Should it come at all? Who will be our Segovia? Alain We have 3 world class virtuosos, Barto, Egüez and Djananovic-Karamazov. Barto trew his lot with Weiss, Egüez with Bach. D-K has recently recorded a superb archlute version of Britten's Nocturnal. Maybe he would, eventually RT To which we should add Abramovich of the vihuela. But the idea of vihuela as a vehicle of contemporary music is just preposterous. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: ARCHLUTE CONTEST
What will it take for lutenists to take contemporary music for their instrument seriously, I wonder: It is a very difficult question. Most contemporary lute music is just plain silly. I make some exception for Alain's and Paulo's stuff, which is of limited modernity. And that is good thing because early instruments are just not designed for dissonance. Even Stefan Lundgren who is intimately familiar with lutes eventuelly went electronic. RT To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Viola sine arculo = Vihuela ?
Since the May 2004 issue of Early Music has been brought up, I suggest all who have access to it take a look at the article on page 177, The Spanish plucked viola in Renaissance Italy, 1480 1530, by Hiroyuki Minamino. He has compiled a remarkable amount of iconographic evidence from all over the Italian peninsula for what may well be the vihuela of the turn of the sixteenth century. The paintings show a relatively large instrumnent (string length perhaps in the low 60 cm range based on proportion to the players' bodies) played with the strings near horizontal. The bridge appears glued to the soundboard; the sides are vertical, and the back is flat or nearly so, based on the way the instrument sits against the body of the player. The outline consistently has bouts, sometimes smooth, like a classical guitar, sometimes with sharp ends like the modern violin family, and once mixed. (Gambas of the Renaissance and Baroque also show this kind of inconsistency in outline). The neck is fairly long, and, when the level of detail provided allows for counting, seems to have about 10 tied frets. There are apparently six or sometimes five courses. The only significant deviation from the instruments pictured in Milan is that on these instruments pegbox has the pegs oriented parallel to the soundboard and is curved like that of a gamba or violin (However, one low-detail.engraving shows a lute-style pegbox, folded back.) So did the Iberians call these things vihuelas in 1480? They certainly look as if they could play the vihuela music of the mid-sixteenth century. For those without ready access to Early Music magazine, take a look online at: http://www.metmuseum.org/Works_of_Art/viewOne.asp?dep=11viewMode=1item= 20%2E92 (front and near center, angel musician) This is the only one of the examples I was able to find on the Internet in a quick search. Regards, Daniel Heiman Get your name as your email address. Includes spam protection, 1GB storage, no ads and more Only $1.99/ month - visit http://www.mysite.com/name today! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Viola sine arculo = Vihuela ?
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