[LUTE] Re: Newbie question
Dear Davide Some makers have one or more 'spare' instruments they are willing to rent to you, as do some teachers. If all fails, tune the third string of your guitar a half tone down and start playing tablature now! That's how I started anyway. David - Original Message - From: Davide Bioccoli [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute ML lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 6:00 PM Subject: [LUTE] Newbie question Hi to all, I'm new to the list and I'm going to buy my first lute but,unfortunately,the waiting time is a still long (8-9 months). Does anyone know if there are chances to hire a lute (from Italy,where I live, or other countries)? I want to start playing and practice as soon as possible!! Thank you all, Davide To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Hip and Sting
Dear Alexander, It's the stressed syllable which has to rhyme. The -ov ending is unstressed, so it's the syllable before which matters. I assume one pronounces his name Ka-ra-MAZ-ov, so you need something to rhyme with maz. All the best, Stewart. - Original Message - From: Alexander Batov [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 10:49 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:47 AM Subject: [LUTE] Hip and Sting ... For your rhymes to work, his name would have to be Karamoxov, or some such. Dostoevsky wouldn't have appreciated this :( How about: Karamazov, Stingov, Dowlandov (the stress on the penultimate syllable in the last one is permissible in Russian). Alexander To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: too soft?
On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 11:11:49 -0700, Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The discussion may go off on the wrong track if we assume that the lute was replaced by the guitar. The lute's function as an ensemble and accompaniment instrument -- which was always its primary function -- This may be (but I'm not sure) true for renaissance lute. If I understand french lute music correctly, it was concepted as solo music only - probably they never played d-minor lute in an ensemble. Some of the lutenists nevertheless had been playing in ensemble theorbo or guitar (think of de Visee for instance). Around 1700, possibly beginning with Reusner, the lute again was used in concertos etc. and - most of the lutenist had been employed as orchestra musicians. Baron tells us, that later in Germany d-minor lutes even had been used as theorbos. For the late baroque I also would agree that ensemble music with lute is more important again. In the whole I would say that there always had been both functions of the lute. I think it would be very good to record more of the ensemble pieces, as many people like the lute even more in ensemble than as solo instrument. Best Markus was taken by keyboard instruments in high art music, and this seems to have been a gradual process that took much of the 18th century. Cf the lute solos in the Bach passions that were replaced by organ and viola da gamba in later versions, or the disappearance of lutes from the musician rosters or pay records in Handel's oratorios. I suppose the same thing happened to the guitar--it was replaced as an accompaniment instrument in serious music by the harpsichord, then the piano. The occasional Sor or Giuliani aside, it was always a backwater in mainstream 19th-century art music. Our tendency to focus on the solo music of both lute and guitar (an area where the lute was indeed replaced by the guitar) is one result of both instruments' being marginalized out of mainstream art music. It's also a result of the modern focus on instrumental music, which is a stark contrast to the vastly greater importance of the voice in older art music (and, for that matter, modern popular music). H To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Markus Lutz Schulstr. 11 D-88422 Bad Buchau Tel: 0 75 82 / 92 62 89 Fax: 0 75 82 / 92 62 90 Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live, was The last word goes to Sting
Dear Caroline; I've attended concerts sponsored by the San Francisco Early Music Society which has a large number of season ticket holders who get preferred seating at their concerts and fill their concerts with audiences of 2-300 people. After attending two lute concerts, one featuring David Tayler and one solo concert performed by Hopkinson Smith, I resolved never to attend another lute concert sponsored by Sfems because the lute simply could not be heard from more the 6 or 7 rows back where all the lute players (who cannot afford season tickets) were forced to sit. I refuse to pay $40 for a ticket to watch someone play a lute I cannot also hear. I've also attended Julian Bream concerts in which he played guitar and lute. Bream's guitar could be heard fine throughout the hall, but when he picked up the lute, even his heavy lute, no one passed the 6th row could hear it. There were many complaints. So, the idea that volume is not an issue with the lute in these situations is wishful thinking, in my opinion. I did not mean to imply that volume was the only issue leading to the disappearance of the soft-voiced instruments, but I think it was a very significant factor. The reason one increases the string tension on an instrument is to get more bang for the buck, i.e. more volume out of the instrument. And that's the reason, I believe, for the changes that led from the baroque guitar to the modern guitar. These changes had to be made so the guitar could handle the increased string tension. And, why increase string tension? Volume, volume, volume. The Torres guitar is significantly louder than either the lute or the baroque guitar. I don't think it is simplistic to argue that the appearance of the concert hall was a significant element motivating these changes. I also don't believe these changes occurred because of the unhistorical early music principles of lutenists, gambists and keyboardists. All the Best, Gary - Original Message - From: Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 7:40 AM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Too soft to live, was The last word goes to Sting At 05:37 AM 10/11/2006, you wrote: The guitar of the 19th century was not the same instrument as the guitar of the 17th: increased tension, larger body, single strings, sturdier construction. All of which contributed to its survival by increasing its volume. Obviously, I'm not terribly well-informed about 19th-century guitar. My impression from a very few concert experiences was that it was not significantly louder than a lute. Also, the point that is often made by the pros is that it's not just volume that counts, it's projection, and the lute can project well (in a good acoustic environment, i.e. without acoustic tile and other sorts of things that didn't exist in 1810.) Also the lute was not the only small voice extinguished at this time. How to account for the fact that the plucked keyboards and violas da gamba died out at about the same time. To me it's not the volume issue that is most striking but the change of timbre. I also think that someone's point about technical differences such as number of frets on the neck vis a vis stylistic demands of the new music is very well taken. Fashions change. Knee breeches and powdered wigs are out, long pants and natural hair are in. Neoclassicism - out, Romanticism - in. And so on. But mostly, I'm tired of simplistic canards about how the lute is so soft you can only play for an audience in single digits. ;-) Caroline Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Room B343 LSRC Mailing address: Box 91000, Duke University, Durham NC 27708 -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.408 / Virus Database: 268.13.2/472 - Release Date: 10/11/2006 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting
Bravo! Except the drink of choice would be absinthe. -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 6:55 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Stuart LeBlanc Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting In New Orleans a luter LeBlanc drank a gallon of scotch on a prank. But crawfish etoufAY topped with English toffAY turned him into a drunk Cajun crank. RT Well you could at least compliment my extremely clever lute-gastronomic pun. -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 9:57 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu; Stuart LeBlanc Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting Nahhh RT The lute of Karamazov, E Had a sound like fine English toffee Whether one course or two No matter to you Or to me, it could well be three -Original Message- From: Roman Turovsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 7:40 AM To: Gert de Vries; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: BetRe: Hip and Sting Karamazov, a Bosnian luter, once upset an annoying polluter, whose gothic invective was bluntly suggestive that polluter's appeal was, well, neuter. RT - Original Message - From: Gert de Vries [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 7:48 AM Subject: [LUTE] BetRe: Hip and Sting I can't think of any words which rhyme with Karamazov. There's more than enough, like rough and tough, and maybe just a little off. Gert Wil je met mij knikkeren? Doe mee aan 12move potje knikkeren en win geweldige prijzen. Speel het spel en bekijk de voorwaarden op http://potjeknikkeren.12move.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com
[LUTE] Tomlinson Triple-extension 13c For Sale
Dear all, Please respond off-list. Best, Benjamin *For Sale:* ** *13 course Widhalm with Jauck-style theorboed upper extension by Grant Tomlinson (made in 2000) *Low pitch f ' or e'. String length: 73 cm / 89.8 cm / 102 cm. Stringing: 2 x 1, 6 x 2 / 3 x 2 / 2 x 2 The body and soundboard of this theorboed 13 course are based on the 1755 Widhalm, Nurnberg MIR903. The triple extension, neck and bridge are based on two instruments by Andreas Jauck (Yale and Brussels). Back of 11 Honduran rosewood ribs with holly spacers. Neck and top of bridge ebony-veneered. Fingerboard, points and edge binding of ebony. Extension of maple, dyed black. Decorative knot carved around the rose. The action is silky-smooth. Asking price is 5000 GBP, including Kingham case (grey) in top condition. Photos of this lute are available on Grant's website: http://www.tomlinsonlutes.com/thirt2.html , No.3. Contact Benjamin Narvey: [EMAIL PROTECTED], website: www.luthiste.com -- Benjamin Narvey Luthiste: http://www.luthiste.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Newbie question
Why don't you join the Lute Society? They have many instruments for hire. It is well worth joining in any case for the Lute News and the annual journal. I'm talking about the society based in England. I don't thing the Lute Society of America has for hire instruments, but if I'm wrong about that, someone will surely correct me here. Maybe an appeal here with a note to where you are located might help also. cheers, On Oct 12, 2006, at 1:00 AM, Davide Bioccoli wrote: Hi to all, I'm new to the list and I'm going to buy my first lute but,unfortunately,the waiting time is a still long (8-9 months). Does anyone know if there are chances to hire a lute (from Italy,where I live, or other countries)? I want to start playing and practice as soon as possible!! Thank you all, Davide To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
[BAROQUE-LUTE] Tomlinson Triple-extension 13c For Sale
Dear all, Please respond off-list. Best, Benjamin *For Sale:* ** *13 course Widhalm with Jauck-style theorboed upper extension by Grant Tomlinson (made in 2000) *Low pitch f ' or e'. String length: 73 cm / 89.8 cm / 102 cm. Stringing: 2 x 1, 6 x 2 / 3 x 2 / 2 x 2 The body and soundboard of this theorboed 13 course are based on the 1755 Widhalm, Nurnberg MIR903. The triple extension, neck and bridge are based on two instruments by Andreas Jauck (Yale and Brussels). Back of 11 Honduran rosewood ribs with holly spacers. Neck and top of bridge ebony-veneered. Fingerboard, points and edge binding of ebony. Extension of maple, dyed black. Decorative knot carved around the rose. The action is silky-smooth. Asking price is 5000 GBP, including Kingham case (grey) in top condition. Photos of this lute are available on Grant's website: http://www.tomlinsonlutes.com/thirt2.html , No.3. Contact Benjamin Narvey: [EMAIL PROTECTED], website: www.luthiste.com -- Benjamin Narvey Luthiste: http://www.luthiste.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live, was The last word goes to Sting
--- gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I resolved never to attend another lute concert sponsored by Sfems because the lute simply could not be heard from more the 6 or 7 rows back where all the lute players (who cannot afford season tickets) were forced to sit. I refuse to pay $40 for a ticket to watch someone play a lute I cannot also hear. The volume of the instrument is not the issue. The approach of the player is. I too have sat in the audience at lute concerts not being able to hear. The last lute concert I went to was by a very big name lutenist. I had a number of my guitar students at this concert and they all told me the same thing That was OK, but the lute sure is really soft. I knew the pieces this performer played. During the show I kept thinking, Now when is he going to start PLAYING the darn thing??? I sat there, straining to hear nuances that I happened to KNOW were there, but were impossible to pick up in a venue of that size (big but not overly-large hall). There was no way any of my students or the general public in attendence would have been able to discern these points. I can certainly appreciate refinement of tone and delicacy of touch. The lute responds well to this - in a small room. But there are places (i.e. a large room) in which being SO incredibly sensitive is downright inappropriate. When I got my degree in guitar, the word drummed into us was always projection. Over and over - know your hall. In a small place use all the dynamics and tone colors your can. In a big one, you may have to forego this in deference to other types of musical expression. Although there are indeed some lutenists who understand this I have seen very, very few of them in person. The lute can indeed respond to being pushed without sacrificing tone quality! Chris __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
If you look at pictures of lute players from 1600 - 1700 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/icon/1600.html you will see that a lot of players back then played very close to the bridge, which gives a tone that many of us revivalists would consider nasty, but which penetrates quite well. I think the lute can be heard above the ambient noise, from a distance, better than a non-electric guitar can, if you use the right technique. But that technique doesn't sound too good in the practice room! Wayne --- gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I resolved never to attend another lute concert sponsored by Sfems because the lute simply could not be heard from more the 6 or 7 rows back where all the lute players (who cannot afford season tickets) were forced to sit. I refuse to pay $40 for a ticket to watch someone play a lute I cannot also hear. The volume of the instrument is not the issue. The approach of the player is. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
The finish on my 13 course lute has faded a little and taken on a patina of age. That forms part of the beauty. It is a deep chestnut red over a yellow base color. Two places are really faded, the back of the neck from my thumb, and where my cheek rests softly on the side of the lute while playing to hear better. Lou Aull -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live, was The last word goes to Sting
At 07:22 AM 10/12/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I resolved never to attend another lute concert sponsored by Sfems because the lute simply could not be heard from more the 6 or 7 rows back where all the lute players (who cannot afford season tickets) were forced to sit. I refuse to pay $40 for a ticket to watch someone play a lute I cannot also hear. The volume of the instrument is not the issue. The approach of the player is. I too have sat in the audience at lute concerts not being able to hear. The last lute concert I went to was by a very big name lutenist. I had a number of my guitar students at this concert and they all told me the same thing That was OK, but the lute sure is really soft. In contrast, when I saw O'Dette play Vivaldi on archlute and mandolino, he was audible in solo passages and perceptible in tutti, even with an appropriately small bowed ensemble. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live, was The last word goes to Sting
Gary, The reasons you outlined below are why I build my baroque lutes for a slightly higher tension, around 4.0kg rather than the historically correct 3.2 or so. The difference is transparent to the player except that projection and all over volume is much enhanced. Simply put, my lutes tend to be louder (not harsh or strident) than others I've owned or heard. It's all in the barring and thickness profile of the soundboard. They play as softly as one of lower tension which is a function of correct setup and stringing. Lutes can be heard, if purpose built. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: gary digman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 4:40 AM To: lutelist Subject: [LUTE] Re: Too soft to live, was The last word goes to Sting Dear Caroline; I've attended concerts sponsored by the San Francisco Early Music Society which has a large number of season ticket holders who get preferred seating at their concerts and fill their concerts with audiences of 2-300 people. After attending two lute concerts, one featuring David Tayler and one solo concert performed by Hopkinson Smith, I resolved never to attend another lute concert sponsored by Sfems because the lute simply could not be heard from more the 6 or 7 rows back where all the lute players (who cannot afford season tickets) were forced to sit. I refuse to pay $40 for a ticket to watch someone play a lute I cannot also hear. I've also attended Julian Bream concerts in which he played guitar and lute. Bream's guitar could be heard fine throughout the hall, but when he picked up the lute, even his heavy lute, no one passed the 6th row could hear it. There were many complaints. So, the idea that volume is not an issue with the lute in these situations is wishful thinking, in my opinion. I did not mean to imply that volume was the only issue leading to the disappearance of the soft-voiced instruments, but I think it was a very significant factor. The reason one increases the string tension on an instrument is to get more bang for the buck, i.e. more volume out of the instrument. And that's the reason, I believe, for the changes that led from the baroque guitar to the modern guitar. These changes had to be made so the guitar could handle the increased string tension. And, why increase string tension? Volume, volume, volume. The Torres guitar is significantly louder than either the lute or the baroque guitar. I don't think it is simplistic to argue that the appearance of the concert hall was a significant element motivating these changes. I also don't believe these changes occurred because of the unhistorical early music principles of lutenists, gambists and keyboardists. All the Best, Gary To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
Okay, here's what we have so far in a nutshell to account for the demise of the lute: The lute died: 1. Because it wasn't able to maintain its primary function as an accompaniment instrument due to the decline of continuo 2. Because it wasn't loud enough to fill a concert hall 3. Because it was too hard to play, and was consequently ignored during the great dumbing-down which followed the decline of the patronage system 4. Because of something Linda Sayce said about the mandora 5. Because it was not able to move beyond the single-affect system characteristic of the Baroque period 6. Because it not able to handle the wider tonal palette required by the new music 7. Because it became unfashionable Any other ideas? David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
David, Or, perhaps, it isn't dead; merely resting awaiting a reawakening. If you had heard Chris Wilke play the 1987 suite by Carlo Domeniconi you would certainly not think it dead. Chris, you gotta record that!! No resurrection is needed, only use. Even at my pitiful playing level I've never had anyone for whom I've played look at a baroque lute and say, Why bother? The visual and tonal impact of the instrument is enthralling to any musician. Best, Rob Dorsey http://RobDorsey.com -Original Message- From: David Rastall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 10:52 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Too soft to live Okay, here's what we have so far in a nutshell to account for the demise of the lute: The lute died: 1. Because it wasn't able to maintain its primary function as an accompaniment instrument due to the decline of continuo 2. Because it wasn't loud enough to fill a concert hall 3. Because it was too hard to play, and was consequently ignored during the great dumbing-down which followed the decline of the patronage system 4. Because of something Linda Sayce said about the mandora 5. Because it was not able to move beyond the single-affect system characteristic of the Baroque period 6. Because it not able to handle the wider tonal palette required by the new music 7. Because it became unfashionable Any other ideas? David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Iconography site
Dear all, I forgot to tell you that on my website, under the section links (any language you choose) there is a link to a new lute and pluck instruments iconography site I have made. It a bit messy at the moment and some information from some pictures is still missing. Here is the site: http://www.lutevoice.com (go to links section) I hope you enjoy it! Alfonso To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
In einer eMail vom 12.10.2006 16:53:31 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Because of something Linda Sayce said about the mandora Without saying anything too definite about what Lynda said, it may be that the lute never died out in the way that we think. Maybe the mandora and guitar existed alongside one another with an interchangeable repertoire and maybe infleuncing each other. It is a bit like saying that the lute died out when the baroque lute came along. But I am not an expert on this period and I may have not got the point at all. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
David wrote: Okay, here's what we have so far in a nutshell to account for the demise of the lute: The lute died: [SNIP] You forgot a main point; That even though Sting tried to make it fashionable within the popular music culture no one really wanted to play it Jimi Hendrix style, i.e. to plug it into a big amplifier (the kind that uses a big spring for the reverb function), attach a Wah-Wah pedal to it, douse it in lighter fluid and while it's burning play Anachreon in Heaven on it. Regards, Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting
http://www.emailthis.clickability.com/et/emailThis?clickMap=viewThisetMailToID=756947335 - Original Message - From: Eric Liefeld [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 11:43 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Hip and Sting The duo Karamazov and Sting While one played, the other would sing They made old John Dowland Wish he'd thrown in the towel...and Not written so much for the king or... There once was a new disk by Sting In a natural voice he did sing He got jeers and hoots From those who play lutes So HIP, that they just couldn't swing On Oct 11, 2006, at 8:22 PM, Edward Martin wrote: There once was Sting and Karamazov Who did a Dowland CD and it was set off Some were amused, others abused But to this topic, I can say, Buzz off. At 06:03 PM 10/9/2006 -0500, you wrote: There once was a lute email list No rancor or bile ever missed The offending thing Came from one named Sting Thus all of the listers got pissed -Original Message- From: Louis Aull [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 11:15 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Hip and Sting Doesn't anyone recall that real HIP playing led to the evolution and demise of the lute in it's own time? That the paying audience might have had some influence over this choice rather than the scholars? Lou Aull -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 --- Eric Liefeld (505) 526-1230 [EMAIL PROTECTED] --
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
I can certainly appreciate refinement of tone and delicacy of touch. The lute responds well to this - in a small room. But there are places (i.e. a large room) in which being SO incredibly sensitive is downright inappropriate. So perhaps the room is inappropriate for the instrument. I tend to think that. Occasionally I have to play solo in _big_ concert halls - no, it doens't happen often ;-) - or churches. The latter are better, by the way, as long as I can choose where to sit. But projecting some De Visée in a 500 plus hall misses the point about De Visée. Sure, they can hear the lute, but do they hear De Visée? I doubt it. Much of lute solo music needs intimacy. Another thing entirely: I played Monteverdi's Maria Vespers in a packed 500 plus church last Saturday and theorbo as well as baroque guitar could be heard to the last row, aslo in the tuttis. In the weekend before I played in England accompanying a singer on my 10-course in a competition (she won first prize!). Afterwards the other lutenists came asking how I produced all that volume. They were on nylgut and copperwound basses, me on all-gut. There is a difference. And, sure, technique will be different, too. David Terzi cd examples on: http://www.turtlerecords.com/audio/28-t01.html http://www.turtlerecords.com/audio/28-t04.html David van Ooijen [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.davidvanooijen.nl To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
In einer eMail vom 12.10.2006 18:01:43 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: And, sure, technique will be different, too I think someone earlier spoke about playing closer to the bridge, I think this important, 99% of the time none of my fingers are near the rose at all, most often at least 1 cm away. I think this produces much more volume. After ALK first heard me play he asked if my lutes were so loud or it was my playing, I think it is probably a mixture of both. A few months ago we played in Bamberg for just under a 1000 audience and people who were right at the back said they could hear every note of the lute. I think it was due to the wonderful acoustics of the hall, but also due to the bass lute I was using. Bigger lutes just have a bigger sound and you can play even closer to the bridge, in relation to a smaller g lute. Probably using bigger lutes and heading towards the bridge is the HIP way to deal with these problems. In the end sounds better and looks cooler than a single strung archlute :) Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: too soft?
At 01:36 PM 10/11/2006, David Rastall wrote: On Oct 11, 2006, at 11:47 AM, Caroline Usher wrote: ...to me, the difference in timbre is more important than the difference in volume. [snip] I agree with Caroline completely. We thank you for your kind and loyal support, much valued in these troublous times. As a mark of Our gracious favour, We grant you sole and exclusive Privilege for the printing of lute tablature from movable type within our realm. Let no one infringe upon this right, upon peril of peine forte (NOT douce) et dure (NOT moll.) HIH CAROLINE Caroline Usher Dowager Empress, Lute Society of America Please refer all queries to the current President, Dick Hoban [EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: too soft?
On Oct 12, 2006, at 12:21 PM, Caroline Usher wrote: We thank you for your kind and loyal support, much valued in these troublous times. As a mark of Our gracious favour, We grant you sole and exclusive Privilege for the printing of lute tablature from movable type within our realm. Let no one infringe upon this right, upon peril of peine forte (NOT douce) et dure (NOT moll.) Majesty, You are most kind to recognize my pitiful attempts to curry favor with your royal personage. Your most humble and grovelling servant David R (non Rex) PS Can I still use Fronimo? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: too soft?
On Thursday, Oct 12, 2006, at 01:32 America/Los_Angeles, Markus Lutz wrote: This may be (but I'm not sure) true for renaissance lute. If I understand french lute music correctly, it was concepted as solo music only - probably they never played d-minor lute in an ensemble. You think nobody ever accompanied a singer on a d minor lute? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
On Thursday, Oct 12, 2006, at 07:51 America/Los_Angeles, David Rastall wrote: Okay, here's what we have so far in a nutshell to account for the demise of the lute: The lute died: 1. Because it wasn't able to maintain its primary function as an accompaniment instrument due to the decline of continuo I don't think the decline of continuo had much to do with it. Continuo was doing fine in the second half of the 18th century; lutes weren't. H To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
Dear David and all, I object to clause 4, :). Without having been present at Linda Sayce's lecture I understand from what was posted about that lecture that she commented on the role the mandora played during the time the late baroque lute (i.e. the 13 to 14 course instrument in d-Minor tuning) fell into decline and the early romantic guitar rose. The mandora can be seen as an intermediary or - say - a stepping stone in a process which did not feature the decline of one instrument and the rise of another but which forms a continuum where instruments are gradually transformed to fit changing environments. Although the differences between a baroque lute, a six string guitar and a six string lute (the instrument which later became what is called a Wandervogellaute today but was introduced about hundred years before the Wandervogel movement formed) are quite marked, they seem to belong to the same line of development and thus there may have never ocurred a decline of the lute at all - just that the darn thing with too many strings fell more and more out of use, simpler forms were developed or came to the fore and the guitar took in its evolvement something over from the role the lute had played. (Sorry if my command of the language should be too weak to communicate what I mean. I will fall silent now and travel to France for the weekend.) I like No 5 (RT, I think) - it introduces a factor most often completely overseen ... All best, Joachim David Rastall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: Okay, here's what we have so far in a nutshell to account for the demise of the lute: The lute died: 1. Because it wasn't able to maintain its primary function as an accompaniment instrument due to the decline of continuo 2. Because it wasn't loud enough to fill a concert hall 3. Because it was too hard to play, and was consequently ignored during the great dumbing-down which followed the decline of the patronage system 4. Because of something Linda Sayce said about the mandora 5. Because it was not able to move beyond the single-affect system characteristic of the Baroque period 6. Because it not able to handle the wider tonal palette required by the new music 7. Because it became unfashionable Any other ideas? David R mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Dr. Joachim Lüdtke Frühlingsstraße 9a D - 93164 Laaber Tel. +49-+9498 / 905 188 --
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
At 01:06 PM 10/12/2006, Howard Posner wrote: On Thursday, Oct 12, 2006, at 07:51 America/Los_Angeles, David Rastall wrote: Okay, here's what we have so far in a nutshell to account for the demise of the lute: The lute died: 1. Because it wasn't able to maintain its primary function as an accompaniment instrument due to the decline of continuo I don't think the decline of continuo had much to do with it. Continuo was doing fine in the second half of the 18th century; lutes weren't. I agree, Howard. I really believe it was more a function of the passing of the Doctrine of the Affections and the rising taste for development and modulation to remote keys (which keyboards can do in continuo); unfrettable diatonically tuned strings (as many lute types had) just couldn't cope across their full range in modulation. If you can't use the full range of an instrument, why have it? The simple symmetry through contrast of the rising classical aesthetic was also better complimented by the clearer, more linear note separation of the new single-strung guitar (i.e., that timbre thing again). A side line, I think the modern mandolin deserves a little more credit for keeping lute kin alive. The first incarnations to carry the name were very much a type of soprano lute, even tuned wholly or mostly in fourths. A bit simplified, but the Neapolitan mandolin type came to be in the mid 18th-c. when violin tuning was applied to a lute-like sound box (borrowed from existing mandolini) and a chitarra battente-like soundboard and stringing arrangement. Its derivatives persist today. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
In einer eMail vom 12.10.2006 21:13:13 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: unfrettable diatonically tuned strings (as many lute types had) just couldn't cope across their full range in modulation. That is the reason that the mandora became popular and why it is probably the better continuo instrument for late german baroque music, than theorbo or archlute. Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
Dear all, just a couple of comments, not against anyone: 1) I think that when modulation, change of key, inside a piece became central means of expression in early classisim, the open basses of baroque lutes and theorboes just could not cope with the style anymore. 2) I suppose the technique of playing moderately loud is (and was!) possible. Somehow the modern hip - in my opinion - has accepted too soft playing. To say a name: Hoppy plays often very beautifully, but being so soft really needs modern recording technology: they did not have that in 16th, 17th and 18th centuries... I think you really have to be a little rude in your playing, ..., well at least not too esoteric... ;-) All the best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
*sniffle* I offered that thought too...and I am in wholehearted agreement with it. I think 5 6 are the thrust of the why and essentially are the same thing. Eugene At 01:24 PM 10/12/2006, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ...I like No 5 (RT, I think) - it introduces a factor most often completely overseen ... All best, Joachim David Rastall mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: ...5. Because it was not able to move beyond the single-affect system characteristic of the Baroque period 6. Because it not able to handle the wider tonal palette required by the new music 7. Because it became unfashionable To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
In einer eMail vom 12.10.2006 21:40:00 Westeurop=E4ische Normalzeit schreibt [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Somehow the modern hip - in my opinion - has accepted too soft playing. Could not agree more Mark -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: too soft?
Why shouldn´t they accompany a singer, Howard. I spoke from ensemble playing. I don´t know too much about the French lute repertoire, but I think they used it mainly - more than at other times - for solo. Best Marku You think nobody ever accompanied a singer on a d minor lute? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
On Oct 12, 2006, at 3:38 PM, Arto Wikla wrote: 2) I suppose the technique of playing moderately loud is (and was!) possible. Somehow the modern hip - in my opinion - has accepted too soft playing. To say a name: Hoppy plays often very beautifully, but being so soft really needs modern recording technology: they did not have that in 16th, 17th and 18th centuries... I think you really have to be a little rude in your playing, ..., well at least not too esoteric... ;-) But don't you think we sometimes sacrifice volume for more beautiful tone? I know I do. I could play loudly with nails and make a truly horrible sound, but then I would not want everyone to hear that! David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] da Milano
Is there an index giving incipits of da Milano's works with their Ness numbers? I am also looking for a facsimile of the fantasia Ness #38 from the _Intabolatura de lauto di M. Francesco Milanese et M. Perino Fiorentino_ of 1547 (abbreviated 47G3 in the Ness book). It would be appreciated if someone could point me to a source. -- Stephen Fryer Lund Computer Services ** The more answers I find, the more questions I have ** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: da Milano
Stephen Fryer ha scritto: Is there an index giving incipits of da Milano's works with their Ness numbers? I am also looking for a facsimile of the fantasia Ness #38 from the _Intabolatura de lauto di M. Francesco Milanese et M. Perino Fiorentino_ of 1547 (abbreviated 47G3 in the Ness book). It would be appreciated if someone could point me to a source. I don't know if there's an index around (I've not found any through the web), but at http://www.saulbgroen.nl/ or at http://www.minkoff-editions.com/ (Minkoff Editions) they sell the facsimile of the Intabolatura de lauto di M. Francesco Milanese et M. Perino Fiorentino, dated 1562 and not 1547. For play only (and not buy!) try http://web.gerbode.net/ft2/composers/Milano/milano_038.ft2 (Fronimo is needed) All the best Davide To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Too soft to live
Wayne, You bring up a few items that are generally accepted... that is, by playing close to the bridge, one gets a brittle nasty sound. We have all experienced this. But, to counter this thought, Toyohiko Satoh has done a great deal of work and research into this, and he has concluded that the paintings demonstrate playing by the bridge, because that is they way they played (some have suggested that the painters portrayed this technique by the bridge, to show off the rose, and that they did not play by the bridge). Toyohiko was at the LSA seminar in Cleveland this past summer, and he is proof that this can be done... a great sound, very projective. He does this in part with lower tension of the strings... Maybe as low as 2.3 to 2.5 Kg per string. With a slacker string, it is not too bright. As well, it lowers the overall tension on the instrument, is healthier for the longevity of the lute. He can get color characteristics ranging from brittle to sweet without moving his hand position. Yes, he can get a great sound in the practice room. I think we need to learn more about this. ed At 08:16 AM 10/12/2006 -0400, Wayne Cripps wrote: If you look at pictures of lute players from 1600 - 1700 http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/icon/1600.html you will see that a lot of players back then played very close to the bridge, which gives a tone that many of us revivalists would consider nasty, but which penetrates quite well. I think the lute can be heard above the ambient noise, from a distance, better than a non-electric guitar can, if you use the right technique. But that technique doesn't sound too good in the practice room! Wayne --- gary digman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I resolved never to attend another lute concert sponsored by Sfems because the lute simply could not be heard from more the 6 or 7 rows back where all the lute players (who cannot afford season tickets) were forced to sit. I refuse to pay $40 for a ticket to watch someone play a lute I cannot also hear. The volume of the instrument is not the issue. The approach of the player is. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202
[LUTE] Re: da Milano
Stephen Fryer ha scritto: Is there an index giving incipits of da Milano's works with their Ness numbers? I am also looking for a facsimile of the fantasia Ness #38 from the _Intabolatura de lauto di M. Francesco Milanese et M. Perino Fiorentino_ of 1547 (abbreviated 47G3 in the Ness book). It would be appreciated if someone could point me to a source. I find now ,looking in my collection ,that I have a facsimile edition of the Intabolatura de lauto di M. Francesco Milanese et M. Perino Fiorentino, Libro III, 1547, prepared by Richard Civiol (in italian tablature). if you're interested (and any other) I can send a copy via e-mail, let me know Davide To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Too Soft To Live
Understanding that this is just opinion, as are most of the previous responses, I don't think it is possible to truly understand what happened here with the Lute. However there is a concept in the study of the evolution of species that states; the more specialized a species becomes the more prone to extintion it will be. I kind of look at the Lute in this light. We have discussions on this list all the time about all of the different tunings, the different sizes, the different strings, the diffirent forms of music and the different forms of playing techniques. We go from five to thirteen sets, or courses, of strings, to these monster instruments with six foot necks. Personally I think if the Lute had not changed over and over and been re-invented every time music changed, but had stayed with no more than seven courses it might well have survived. I think that those people, who over the years loved the Lute, loved it to death. It got to be too ponderous, too complicated, too expensive to string, too fragile, too difficult to transport, too complicated to play and--- too specialized to survive. Couple all of this with the sound limitations being discussed here and you have a lot of good reasons the instrument could not and did not survive. Of course this is just my opinion which with four dollars will get you a cup of coffee at your local Star Bucks. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
