[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
I don't have this work either - I think... And I'm not quite sure what you mean in the page 6-7 example. But doesn't the use of higher positions suggest a re-entrant (single or double) tuning rather than the reverse, since it still allows for some harmony to be played above the bass line? Or maybe I've misunderstood the example. I don't understand the page 52 example - sorry. Martyn __ From: Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk To: Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 23 February 2014, 16:00 Subject: [LUTE] Bartolotti's continuo treatise Does anyone have a copy of Bartolotti's continuo treatise - Table pour apprendre a toucher le theorbe sur la basse continuo (1669). I haven't been able to trace one online. Someone queried with me this recent suggestion that the exercises are not intended for a theorbo with a double re-entrant tuning. He gave me two specific examples ... Page 6-7 shows him playing the the dessus going up the neck and shifting to the 5th fret position, which would be very unnecessary having a no-reentrant tuning. Page 52 shows Bartolotti changing the voice leading down an octave, and than re-striking the dissonance and resolution in the new lower octave, which only makes sense on a double-reentrant instrument. I suspect Bartolotti is just inconsistent but I wonder if anyone else has played through all the exercises and could comment. Monica To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 08:29:00 + (GMT), Martyn Hodgson wrote I don't have this work either - I think... @Monica: are you by any chance refering to https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.441553512620558.1073741827.253474818095096type=1 (Bartolotti continuo and solo similarities - from https://www.facebook.com/Tiorba)? BTW, there's an image of page 52. or me this example works _much_ better in a non-reentrant tuning (N.B: Ms. one has an error: the second chor should read dfbflat). Why would Bartolotti start thist example with horribly wrong conterpoint? In reentrant tuning the 7-6 would transmogrify into a perfect fifth (f c) resolving to a forth (f bflat) [1]. To be followed by a chain of 2nd chords ... Yes, we all know that a 7-6 chain can be inverted (double counterpoint) into a 2-3 chain but we also know this doesn't work with a third voice running a third above the bass (since the fith between this voice and the 7th would invert into a (false/wrong) forth. We know our counterpoint - Bartolotti didn't? This all does not happen with a non-reentrant tuning. The one problematic spot for a non-reentrant tuning is Ms.13 - here the 7th (e natural, second string) would resolve into a 6th (d, fifth string), a problem easily solveable by playing the resolution on the third string. That spot makes much more sense in an reentrant tuning (moving from an open string g in ms. 10 to same note fretted on the second string, third fret ms. 11). And I'm not quite sure what you mean in the page 6-7 example. But doesn't the use of higher positions suggest a re-entrant (single or double) tuning rather than the reverse, since it still allows for some harmony to be played above the bass line? No. Once you are an the highest string (string 3 for an reentrant tuning) the strings above will actually be below. That's exactly what would happen on page 52. Going up the neck is as common on a archlute as it is on a theorbo. Cheers, RalfD [1] Yeah, that's why the called him ... without doubt the most skillful upon the theorbo. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 18:23:03 +0100, R. Mattes wrote I hate to follow up my own posts. (f bflat) [1]. To be followed by a chain of 2nd chords ... Yes, we all know that a 7-6 chain can be inverted (double counterpoint) into a 2-3 chain but we also know this doesn't work with a third voice running a third above the bass (since the fith between this voice and the 7th would invert into a (false/wrong) forth. Another consideration speaking against this wrong counterpoint: in this type of 7-6 chain the top/solo voice often sings/plays the dissonance. While doubling the top voice seems to be perfectly fine for most 17th century BC treaties, the inverted version would put the dissonance into the bass and we would end up with parallel octaves between soloist and bass voice - which is definitely _not_ fine at all. Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise
Thank you for going to so much trouble to answer my query. I have been busy all afternoon and haven't had time to read it carefully but I understand that you think that it works better without re-entrant courses. I will read it all again later. The reason why I asked was because in a study of Bartolotti which is mainly concerned with the guitar I mentioned the continuo exercises briefly and relying on Lynda Sayce commented that they were intended for a theorboed lute without re-entrant courses. Someone contacted me and said he disagreed with me! I sure that Lynda is right and you obviously seem to think the same as she does. I always like to consult the collective wisdom of this list when in doubt about these rather obscure matters. Many thanks Monica - Original Message - From: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de To: R. Mattes r...@mh-freiburg.de; Martyn Hodgson hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk; Monica Hall mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk; Lutelist lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, February 24, 2014 5:41 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bartolotti's continuo treatise On Mon, 24 Feb 2014 18:23:03 +0100, R. Mattes wrote I hate to follow up my own posts. (f bflat) [1]. To be followed by a chain of 2nd chords ... Yes, we all know that a 7-6 chain can be inverted (double counterpoint) into a 2-3 chain but we also know this doesn't work with a third voice running a third above the bass (since the fith between this voice and the 7th would invert into a (false/wrong) forth. Another consideration speaking against this wrong counterpoint: in this type of 7-6 chain the top/solo voice often sings/plays the dissonance. While doubling the top voice seems to be perfectly fine for most 17th century BC treaties, the inverted version would put the dissonance into the bass and we would end up with parallel octaves between soloist and bass voice - which is definitely _not_ fine at all. Cheers, RalfD To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] a baroque lute shortage
Hi - I am involved in a situation where several people are looking for used baroque lutes at the lower end of the price range. (Everyone has a Lowe or Tomlinson for sale, it seems). This seems a bit odd, as a while ago there seemed to be enough baroque lutes for sale to go around. So I guess my message is - if you have a baroque lute that you would like to move, now is the time. Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: a baroque lute shortage
Just as Wayne mentions it: a friend of mine is selling her instruments an 8-course Renaissance lute made by Markus Dietrich for 1200 Euros and a 13-course baroque lute by Markus Dietrich for 1900 Euros Each with hard case and in mint condition - both instrumensts just need restringing. They can be played close to Vienna (Austria) Best wishes Thomas Am 24.02.2014 22:00, schrieb Wayne Cripps: Hi - I am involved in a situation where several people are looking for used baroque lutes at the lower end of the price range. (Everyone has a Lowe or Tomlinson for sale, it seems). This seems a bit odd, as a while ago there seemed to be enough baroque lutes for sale to go around. So I guess my message is - if you have a baroque lute that you would like to move, now is the time. Wayne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- Thomas Schall, Dörflistrasse 2, 6078 Lungern, 041 678 00 79 --- Diese E-Mail ist frei von Viren und Malware, denn der avast! Antivirus Schutz ist aktiv. http://www.avast.com
