[LUTE] Re: Loose frets

[lsa]

Does anyone else dampen their fret gut with water before tying them? I dip my 
fingers into water and run the string through them. Then let them sit a little 
to soften just a tad. If needed,  I rewet  the part that is going to make the 
knot so that it is flexible. I tie the fret on below where it is going to end 
up, and allow it to dry before pulling into position.

I don't play lute enough to change frets much, but I have found the wetting to 
be useful.

-Anne Burns




On Fri, 9 Mar 2018 09:01:32 -0800, howard posner  wrote:

> On Mar 9, 2018, at 8:12 AM, John Mardinly  wrote:
> 
>  My frets never come loose and they have not worn out yet. They are
>   metal.

I want to know how you tied them on in the first place.  You must have really 
strong fingers.




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[LUTE] Re: Loose frets

[howard posner]

> On Mar 9, 2018, at 8:12 AM, John Mardinly  wrote:
> 
>  My frets never come loose and they have not worn out yet. They are
>   metal.

I want to know how you tied them on in the first place.  You must have really 
strong fingers.




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[LUTE] Re: Loose frets

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Indeed Chris: Mace reports the usual common practice but , as you say,
   he employs a single loop. This was also discussed earlier (when this
   subject was previously aired some years ago). In particular, I find the
   double fret beds in so that one loop takes the wear and the other
   provides the clean break. If Mace's experience was so beneficial, I
   wonder why the vast majority of historic iconography shows double
   loops?...
   MH
 __

   From: Christopher Wilke 
   To: Christopher Wilke ; Martyn Hodgson
   ; Matthew Daillie
   ; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   
   Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 14:07
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets
 And of course, my experience was also born out by Mace in 1676 who
 gives instructions for double frets, but actually recommends using a
 single fret, because,
 "...it is not only sooner done, and with a shorter string; but
   chiefly,
 it does (assuredly) cause a clearer sound from the string stopt;
   which
 must needs be granted, if it be considered, that the string lying
   upon
 this only round single fret, cannot but speak clear, when as (on the
 contrary) it lying upon two, (as in the double fret it does) it
   cannot
 be thought to speak so clear, because, that although it lie hard and
 close, upon the uppermost of the two, next the finger, yet it cannot
 lie so close and hard, upon the undermost; so that it must needs fuzz
   a
 little..."
 Chris
 [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
 On Friday, March 9, 2018, 8:52 AM, Christopher Wilke
 <[1]chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
   Martyn,
   I've actually had the opposite experience with the durability of
 double
   frets. Their practical lifespan isn't as long as single frets
 precisely
   because the side closest to the bridge takes the wear, leaving an
   uneven relation to the bridge side. This means they start buzzing
 very
   soon after being put on. (I used double frets on one of my albums.
 The
   track running order differed from the order in which they were
   recorded, but you can tell in exactly what sequence the pieces were
   done by the sound of the frets. By the end of the session, the
 fingered
   bass notes started growling like a fretless bass. And that was only
   over a few days of heavy playing!) Single frets, by comparison, can
   theoretically last until the "bridge side" is the fret above it.
   Another obvious disadvantage to double frets - they of course take
   up
   twice the fret gut. I'm not so deep in the pockets that I can
   afford
 to
   fret twice the number of instruments I actually own!
   I suspect double frets may have made more sense with historical
   gut,
   which was obviously more pliable and probably softer and more
   elastic
   than what we have available today.
   Chris
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
   On Friday, March 9, 2018, 7:10 AM, Martyn Hodgson
   <[2][2]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
 I'm pleased to hear it. Another advantage of double frets is
   that,
 being twice the length, the their elastic deformation and
   recovery
 is
 physically superior to a single: in short, you can move them
   around
 more (if you're that way inclined) without them becoming as loose
 as
   a
 single loop would.
 A yet further advantage is that the loop closer to the nut takes
 most
 of the wear leaving the fret loop closer to the bridge with a
 cleaner
 take-off for a longer period than a wholly single loop.
 rgds
 MH
 __
 From: Matthew Daillie <[2][3][3]dail...@club-internet.fr>
 To: "[3][4][4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   <[4][5][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
 Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 11:33
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets
 I've never had issues with single knots.
 Best,
 Matthew
 On 09/03/2018 11:39, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
 >  Indeed. And it also depends whether single fret loops are
 employed
 >(something of a modern fad) rather than the  better, and
 easier
   to
 tie
 >firmly, historical double fret loops
 To get on or off this list see list information at

   [1][5][6][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
   References
 1.
   [6][7][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
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 References
   1. [8][8]https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS
   2. mailto:[9][9]dail...@club-internet.fr
   3. 

[LUTE] Re: Loose frets

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Chris,
   Well, my experience is that I recounted earlier - perhaps, as you
   suggest, it's to do with the quality of the gut and I've been lucky
   with most of my my fret gut supplies, since, you're right, some
   supplies are better than others.  If possible I also try and use old
   playing strings (not frayed bits obviously) and, I suppose, this is
   what the 'Old Ones' did and so perhaps the economics of gut frets was
   not to unmanageable.
   Incidentally, I'm not sure if old lute gut was softer than modern.
   Certainly from pictures etc it generally seems to be more pliable as
   Mimmo Peruffo, amongst others, has pointed out but that's not the same
   thing necessarily.
   MH
 __

   From: Christopher Wilke 
   To: Martyn Hodgson ; Matthew Daillie
   ; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu"
   
   Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 13:49
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets
   Martyn,
   I've actually had the opposite experience with the durability of double
   frets. Their practical lifespan isn't as long as single frets precisely
   because the side closest to the bridge takes the wear, leaving an
   uneven relation to the bridge side. This means they start buzzing very
   soon after being put on. (I used double frets on one of my albums. The
   track running order differed from the order in which they were
   recorded, but you can tell in exactly what sequence the pieces were
   done by the sound of the frets. By the end of the session, the fingered
   bass notes started growling like a fretless bass. And that was only
   over a few days of heavy playing!) Single frets, by comparison, can
   theoretically last until the "bridge side" is the fret above it.
   Another obvious disadvantage to double frets - they of course take up
   twice the fret gut. I'm not so deep in the pockets that I can afford to
   fret twice the number of instruments I actually own!
   I suspect double frets may have made more sense with historical gut,
   which was obviously more pliable and probably softer and more elastic
   than what we have available today.
   Chris
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
   On Friday, March 9, 2018, 7:10 AM, Martyn Hodgson
    wrote:

 I'm pleased to hear it. Another advantage of double frets is that,

 being twice the length, the their elastic deformation and recovery is

 physically superior to a single: in short, you can move them around

 more (if you're that way inclined) without them becoming as loose as
   a

 single loop would.

 A yet further advantage is that the loop closer to the nut takes most

 of the wear leaving the fret loop closer to the bridge with a cleaner

 take-off for a longer period than a wholly single loop.

 rgds

 MH

   __

 From: Matthew Daillie <[2]dail...@club-internet.fr>

 To: "[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>

 Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 11:33

 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets

 I've never had issues with single knots.

 Best,

 Matthew

 On 09/03/2018 11:39, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

 >  Indeed. And it also depends whether single fret loops are employed

 >(something of a modern fad) rather than the  better, and easier
   to

 tie

 >firmly, historical double fret loops

 To get on or off this list see list information at

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   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Loose frets

[John Mardinly]

   My frets never come loose and they have not worn out yet. They are
   metal.

   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   The Sleep of Reason Produces Monsters
   Francisco Goya

   On Mar 9, 2018, at 6:48 AM, Christopher Wilke
   <[1]chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:

 Martyn,
 I've actually had the opposite experience with the durability of
   double
 frets. Their practical lifespan isn't as long as single frets
   precisely
 because the side closest to the bridge takes the wear, leaving an
 uneven relation to the bridge side. This means they start buzzing
   very
 soon after being put on. (I used double frets on one of my albums.
   The
 track running order differed from the order in which they were
 recorded, but you can tell in exactly what sequence the pieces were
 done by the sound of the frets. By the end of the session, the
   fingered
 bass notes started growling like a fretless bass. And that was only
 over a few days of heavy playing!) Single frets, by comparison, can
 theoretically last until the "bridge side" is the fret above it.
 Another obvious disadvantage to double frets - they of course take up
 twice the fret gut. I'm not so deep in the pockets that I can afford
   to
 fret twice the number of instruments I actually own!
 I suspect double frets may have made more sense with historical gut,
 which was obviously more pliable and probably softer and more elastic
 than what we have available today.
 Chris
 [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
 On Friday, March 9, 2018, 7:10 AM, Martyn Hodgson
 <[2]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:
   I'm pleased to hear it. Another advantage of double frets is that,
   being twice the length, the their elastic deformation and recovery
   is
   physically superior to a single: in short, you can move them around
   more (if you're that way inclined) without them becoming as loose
   as
 a
   single loop would.
   A yet further advantage is that the loop closer to the nut takes
   most
   of the wear leaving the fret loop closer to the bridge with a
   cleaner
   take-off for a longer period than a wholly single loop.
   rgds
   MH
 _
   _
   From: Matthew Daillie <[2][3]dail...@club-internet.fr>
   To: "[3][4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[4][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 11:33
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets
   I've never had issues with single knots.
   Best,
   Matthew
   On 09/03/2018 11:39, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

 Indeed. And it also depends whether single fret loops are employed

   (something of a modern fad) rather than the  better, and easier

 to
   tie

   firmly, historical double fret loops

   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1][5][6]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs
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   References
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   [8]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__overview.mail.y
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   xk=
 2. [9]mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr
 3. [10]mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 4. [11]mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
 5.
   [12]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmout
   h.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=DwIBAg=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0
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 6.
   [13]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmout
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   McRogksiKY0007ZfaL3XnhuZkVpDxsbV3bstCwxGM=SlLsze13jVrklD6dGdaTajMI2w_
   p8KdnYINSWKhnwJA=

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References

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   2. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr
   4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   6. 

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Stephen Fryer]

I remember being rather excited when I saw in an old painting of a lute 
that at least one of the frets had a sliver of wood inserted to tighten 
it.  Unfortunately I have lost the reference.


Stephen Fryer


On 2018-03-09 4:55 AM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
How would you tighten the frets? I tried burning off the knot a bit 
more so it pulls together. Does work sometimes.

I could put pieces of matches under the fret, but that's cheating :)

Am 09.03.2018 um 05:09 schrieb spiffys84121:
It is quite easy to tighten frets when they become loose. It baffles 
me when I see lutes with shims on several frets. Changing your frets 
when they are loose is like changing your shoe laces every time they 
become loose. Just tighten those frets!

Sterling



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 Original message 
From: Tristan von Neumann 
Date: 3/8/18 6:28 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: lutelist Net 
Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after some
time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them, they
become loose.
Actually I find some differences in tone very appealing.
Even if some pieces sound dark or harsh, I try to think of it as color
and not a flaw.
I don't know how this was in different climate zones of Europe, but is
there a region where Lutes are always in tune, considering the "Little
Ice Age" of course, not today's reemerging from it.
But with gut and mostly difficult weather conditions back then, I might
want to think that we're already in Lute Heaven with being able to
choose our room temperature and even avoid gut strings if you're ok with
it...
I sometimes wonder who Archicembali were kept in tune...

Am 08.03.2018 um 18:39 schrieb Daniel Shoskes:
 > I don’t have OUP access so can’t read the entire review, but would 
be rather surprised to have a criticism boil down to Dolata's thesis 
was “the frets can move so they must have moved”. I read the book a 
couple of years ago but glancing through it again there is a balanced 
and measured weighing of evidence including iconography, spacing of 
historical fixed fret instruments and multiple vihuela, viol and lute 
sources including Galilei. If someone can share the entire review 
with me I would be happy to re-evalutate and reconsider. For me 
personally, spending most of my plucking in the d minor tuning world, 
equal temperament is the norm.

 >
 > Returning to the original question of the original poster, the 
book contains practical advice for tuning in meantone temperaments 
using the ear and/or a commercial electronic tuner and deals with 
pros and cons for solo and ensemble players.

 >
 > Danny
 >
 >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Andreas Schlegel 
 wrote:

 >>
 >> There’s a different view here:
 >> A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, 
Meantone temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 
2016), in: Early Music, cax101, https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101

 >>
 >> Andreas
 >>
 >>> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes 
:

 >>>
 >>> For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer 
(solo and continuo), I highly recommend “Meantone Temperaments on 
Lutes and Viols” by David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. 
History covered in part 1, theory in part 2 and practicalities in 
part 3 (by ear and using a tuning device).

 >>>
 >>> goo.gl/9Aewv2 
 >>>
 >>>
  On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie 
 wrote:

 
  I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our 
messages said the same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was 
making ??

 
  Leonard's original post was a question about his method for 
tuning 1/4 comma meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to 
use it on lutes, a can of worms I certainly did not wish to open 
(personally I use both equal and 1/5 comma mean-tone on my lutes).

 
  Best,
  Matthew
 
 
  On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
 >   Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the 
advocacy of a true
 >   meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this 
matter of
 >   non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this 
forum a
 >   number of times before - just search the archives.  For 
example this

 >   some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
 > * [1]Martyn Hodgson 
 
 
 
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> --
 >>
 >> Andreas Schlegel
 >> Eckstr. 6
 >> CH-5737 Menziken
 >> Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
 >> Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
 >> lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> --
 >
 >
 >
 >

[LUTE] Re: Loose frets

[Matthew Daillie]

On 09/03/2018 14:06, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
A substitute would be highly welcome. I have thought about soaking 
parcel string in hide glue for frets.
Has anyone tried something that? 


Aquila have started producing nylgut frets. I haven't tried them as I am 
quite happy with gut.


Best,

Matthew



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[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[spiffys84121]

   I think I need to make a video about tightening frets. Possibly this
   weekend.

   Sterling

   Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

    Original message 
   From: Christopher Wilke 
   Date: 3/9/18 6:20 AM (GMT-07:00)
   To: Lutelist Net 
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

  I'm also curious how to tighten an old fret once the knot has been
  burned. Sterling, can you enlighten us?
  I've sometimes very lightly run a soldering iron along the length of
  the back of the fret and, if there is space, at the bend at the
   knot.
  It seems to help if the fret is not very loose, but one has to be
  really careful not to press too hard or you can cause a weak spot or
  even breakage. It only works on frets that aren't too wobbly to
   begin
  with. If too loose, out come the shims...
  Chris
  [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone
  On Friday, March 9, 2018, 7:58 AM, Tristan von Neumann
   wrote:
  How would you tighten the frets? I tried burning off the knot a bit
  more
  so it pulls together. Does work sometimes.
  I could put pieces of matches under the fret, but that's cheating :)
  Am 09.03.2018 um 05:09 schrieb spiffys84121:
  > It is quite easy to tighten frets when they become loose. It
   baffles
  me
  > when I see lutes with shims on several frets. Changing your frets
  when
  > they are loose is like changing your shoe laces every time they
  become
  > loose. Just tighten those frets!
  > Sterling
  >
  >
  >
  > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone
  >
  >  Original message 
  > From: Tristan von Neumann <[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
  > Date: 3/8/18 6:28 PM (GMT-07:00)
  > To: lutelist Net <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
  > Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech
  >
  > My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after
  some
  > time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them,
  they
  > become loose.
  > Actually I find some differences in tone very appealing.
  > Even if some pieces sound dark or harsh, I try to think of it as
  color
  > and not a flaw.
  > I don't know how this was in different climate zones of Europe,
   but
  is
  > there a region where Lutes are always in tune, considering the
  "Little
  > Ice Age" of course, not today's reemerging from it.
  > But with gut and mostly difficult weather conditions back then, I
  might
  > want to think that we're already in Lute Heaven with being able to
  > choose our room temperature and even avoid gut strings if you're
   ok
  with
  > it...
  > I sometimes wonder who Archicembali were kept in tune...
  >
  > Am 08.03.2018 um 18:39 schrieb Daniel Shoskes:
  >  > I don't have OUP access so can't read the entire review, but
   would
  be
  > rather surprised to have a criticism boil down to Dolata's thesis
   was
  > "the frets can move so they must have moved". I read the book a
  couple
  > of years ago but glancing through it again there is a balanced and
  > measured weighing of evidence including iconography, spacing of
  > historical fixed fret instruments and multiple vihuela, viol and
   lute
  > sources including Galilei. If someone can share the entire review
  with
  > me I would be happy to re-evalutate and reconsider. For me
  personally,
  > spending most of my plucking in the d minor tuning world, equal
  > temperament is the norm.
  >  >
  >  > Returning to the original question of the original poster, the
  book
  > contains practical advice for tuning in meantone temperaments
   using
  the
  > ear and/or a commercial electronic tuner and deals with pros and
   cons
  > for solo and ensemble players.
  >  >
  >  > Danny
  >  >
  >  >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Andreas Schlegel
  > <[4]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch> wrote:
  >  >>
  >  >> There's a different view here:
  >  >> A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata,
  Meantone
  > temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016),
   in:
  > Early Music, cax101, [5]https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101
  >  >>
  >  >> Andreas
  >  >>
  >  >>> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes
  <[6]kidneykut...@gmail.com>:
  >  >>>
  >  >>> For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute
   performer
  > (solo and continuo), I highly recommend "Meantone Temperaments on
  Lutes
  > and Viols" by David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History
  > covered in part 1, theory in part 2 and practicalities in part 3
   (by
  ear
  > and using a tuning device).
 

[LUTE] Re: Loose frets

[Christopher Wilke]

   And of course, my experience was also born out by Mace in 1676 who
   gives instructions for double frets, but actually recommends using a
   single fret, because,

   "...it is not only sooner done, and with a shorter string; but chiefly,
   it does (assuredly) cause a clearer sound from the string stopt; which
   must needs be granted, if it be considered, that the string lying upon
   this only round single fret, cannot but speak clear, when as (on the
   contrary) it lying upon two, (as in the double fret it does) it cannot
   be thought to speak so clear, because, that although it lie hard and
   close, upon the uppermost of the two, next the finger, yet it cannot
   lie so close and hard, upon the undermost; so that it must needs fuzz a
   little..."
   Chris
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   On Friday, March 9, 2018, 8:52 AM, Christopher Wilke
    wrote:

 Martyn,

 I've actually had the opposite experience with the durability of
   double

 frets. Their practical lifespan isn't as long as single frets
   precisely

 because the side closest to the bridge takes the wear, leaving an

 uneven relation to the bridge side. This means they start buzzing
   very

 soon after being put on. (I used double frets on one of my albums.
   The

 track running order differed from the order in which they were

 recorded, but you can tell in exactly what sequence the pieces were

 done by the sound of the frets. By the end of the session, the
   fingered

 bass notes started growling like a fretless bass. And that was only

 over a few days of heavy playing!) Single frets, by comparison, can

 theoretically last until the "bridge side" is the fret above it.

 Another obvious disadvantage to double frets - they of course take up

 twice the fret gut. I'm not so deep in the pockets that I can afford
   to

 fret twice the number of instruments I actually own!

 I suspect double frets may have made more sense with historical gut,

 which was obviously more pliable and probably softer and more elastic

 than what we have available today.

 Chris

 [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

 On Friday, March 9, 2018, 7:10 AM, Martyn Hodgson

 <[2]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote:

   I'm pleased to hear it. Another advantage of double frets is that,

   being twice the length, the their elastic deformation and recovery
   is

   physically superior to a single: in short, you can move them around

   more (if you're that way inclined) without them becoming as loose
   as

 a

   single loop would.

   A yet further advantage is that the loop closer to the nut takes
   most

   of the wear leaving the fret loop closer to the bridge with a
   cleaner

   take-off for a longer period than a wholly single loop.

   rgds

   MH


   __

   From: Matthew Daillie <[2][3]dail...@club-internet.fr>

   To: "[3][4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[4][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>

   Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 11:33

   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets

   I've never had issues with single knots.

   Best,

   Matthew

   On 09/03/2018 11:39, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

   >  Indeed. And it also depends whether single fret loops are
   employed

   >(something of a modern fad) rather than the  better, and
   easier

 to

   tie

   >firmly, historical double fret loops

   To get on or off this list see list information at

   [1][5][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

 References

   1. [6][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

 --

   References

 1. [8]https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS

 2. mailto:[9]dail...@club-internet.fr

 3. mailto:[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

 4. mailto:[11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu

 5. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

 6. [13]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS
   2. mailto:hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   3. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr
   4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   8. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS
   9. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr
  10. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  11. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
  12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
  13. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Loose frets

[Christopher Wilke]

   Martyn,

   I've actually had the opposite experience with the durability of double
   frets. Their practical lifespan isn't as long as single frets precisely
   because the side closest to the bridge takes the wear, leaving an
   uneven relation to the bridge side. This means they start buzzing very
   soon after being put on. (I used double frets on one of my albums. The
   track running order differed from the order in which they were
   recorded, but you can tell in exactly what sequence the pieces were
   done by the sound of the frets. By the end of the session, the fingered
   bass notes started growling like a fretless bass. And that was only
   over a few days of heavy playing!) Single frets, by comparison, can
   theoretically last until the "bridge side" is the fret above it.

   Another obvious disadvantage to double frets - they of course take up
   twice the fret gut. I'm not so deep in the pockets that I can afford to
   fret twice the number of instruments I actually own!

   I suspect double frets may have made more sense with historical gut,
   which was obviously more pliable and probably softer and more elastic
   than what we have available today.

   Chris
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   On Friday, March 9, 2018, 7:10 AM, Martyn Hodgson
    wrote:

 I'm pleased to hear it. Another advantage of double frets is that,

 being twice the length, the their elastic deformation and recovery is

 physically superior to a single: in short, you can move them around

 more (if you're that way inclined) without them becoming as loose as
   a

 single loop would.

 A yet further advantage is that the loop closer to the nut takes most

 of the wear leaving the fret loop closer to the bridge with a cleaner

 take-off for a longer period than a wholly single loop.

 rgds

 MH

   __

 From: Matthew Daillie <[2]dail...@club-internet.fr>

 To: "[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>

 Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 11:33

 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets

 I've never had issues with single knots.

 Best,

 Matthew

 On 09/03/2018 11:39, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

 >  Indeed. And it also depends whether single fret loops are employed

 >(something of a modern fad) rather than the  better, and easier
   to

 tie

 >firmly, historical double fret loops

 To get on or off this list see list information at

 [1][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

 --

   References

 1. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. https://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS
   2. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr
   3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
   6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Christopher Wilke]

   I'm also curious how to tighten an old fret once the knot has been
   burned. Sterling, can you enlighten us?

   I've sometimes very lightly run a soldering iron along the length of
   the back of the fret and, if there is space, at the bend at the knot.
   It seems to help if the fret is not very loose, but one has to be
   really careful not to press too hard or you can cause a weak spot or
   even breakage. It only works on frets that aren't too wobbly to begin
   with. If too loose, out come the shims...

   Chris
   [1]Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPhone

   On Friday, March 9, 2018, 7:58 AM, Tristan von Neumann
    wrote:

   How would you tighten the frets? I tried burning off the knot a bit
   more

   so it pulls together. Does work sometimes.

   I could put pieces of matches under the fret, but that's cheating :)

   Am 09.03.2018 um 05:09 schrieb spiffys84121:

   > It is quite easy to tighten frets when they become loose. It baffles
   me

   > when I see lutes with shims on several frets. Changing your frets
   when

   > they are loose is like changing your shoe laces every time they
   become

   > loose. Just tighten those frets!

   > Sterling

   >

   >

   >

   > Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

   >

   >  Original message 

   > From: Tristan von Neumann <[2]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>

   > Date: 3/8/18 6:28 PM (GMT-07:00)

   > To: lutelist Net <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>

   > Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

   >

   > My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after
   some

   > time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them,
   they

   > become loose.

   > Actually I find some differences in tone very appealing.

   > Even if some pieces sound dark or harsh, I try to think of it as
   color

   > and not a flaw.

   > I don't know how this was in different climate zones of Europe, but
   is

   > there a region where Lutes are always in tune, considering the
   "Little

   > Ice Age" of course, not today's reemerging from it.

   > But with gut and mostly difficult weather conditions back then, I
   might

   > want to think that we're already in Lute Heaven with being able to

   > choose our room temperature and even avoid gut strings if you're ok
   with

   > it...

   > I sometimes wonder who Archicembali were kept in tune...

   >

   > Am 08.03.2018 um 18:39 schrieb Daniel Shoskes:

   >  > I don't have OUP access so can't read the entire review, but would
   be

   > rather surprised to have a criticism boil down to Dolata's thesis was

   > "the frets can move so they must have moved". I read the book a
   couple

   > of years ago but glancing through it again there is a balanced and

   > measured weighing of evidence including iconography, spacing of

   > historical fixed fret instruments and multiple vihuela, viol and lute

   > sources including Galilei. If someone can share the entire review
   with

   > me I would be happy to re-evalutate and reconsider. For me
   personally,

   > spending most of my plucking in the d minor tuning world, equal

   > temperament is the norm.

   >  >

   >  > Returning to the original question of the original poster, the
   book

   > contains practical advice for tuning in meantone temperaments using
   the

   > ear and/or a commercial electronic tuner and deals with pros and cons

   > for solo and ensemble players.

   >  >

   >  > Danny

   >  >

   >  >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Andreas Schlegel

   > <[4]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch> wrote:

   >  >>

   >  >> There's a different view here:

   >  >> A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata,
   Meantone

   > temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in:

   > Early Music, cax101, [5]https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101

   >  >>

   >  >> Andreas

   >  >>

   >  >>> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes
   <[6]kidneykut...@gmail.com>:

   >  >>>

   >  >>> For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer

   > (solo and continuo), I highly recommend "Meantone Temperaments on
   Lutes

   > and Viols" by David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History

   > covered in part 1, theory in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by
   ear

   > and using a tuning device).

   >  >>>

   >  >>> goo.gl/9Aewv2 <[7]http://goo.gl/9Aewv2>

   >  >>>

   >  >>>

   >   On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie

   > <[8]dail...@club-internet.fr> wrote:

   >  

   >   I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our
   messages

   > said the same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??

   >  

   >   Leonard's original post was a question about his method for
   tuning

   > 1/4 comma meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it
   on

   > lutes, a can of worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I
   use

   > both equal and 1/5 comma mean-tone on my 

[LUTE] Re: Loose frets

[Tristan von Neumann]

Even gut fret is quite expensive if you want a nice slant in fret 
thickness, and double frets are twice as expensive :)

Sometimes I play 4-6 hours a day and they wear off quite quickly.

A substitute would be highly welcome. I have thought about soaking 
parcel string in hide glue for frets.

Has anyone tried something that?



Am 09.03.2018 um 11:39 schrieb Martyn Hodgson:

Indeed. And it also depends whether single fret loops are employed
(something of a modern fad) rather than the  better, and easier to tie
firmly, historical double fret loops
MH
  __

From: Matthew Daillie 
To:
Cc: lutelist Net 
Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 9:27
Subject: [LUTE] Loose frets
If your frets are becoming loose after a short period then it's
probably because you didn't pull them tight enough in the first place
(I am presuming you use gut frets). Make sure that you are giving them
enough leeway to tighten properly when you pull them towards the
bridge. They need almost a whole position to get nicely tight, so when
you put the third fret on, for example, tighten it close to the second
fret before moving it up the fingerboard. The first fret is generally
the most difficult to get tight as, due to the peg box, there is less
room to manoeuvre.
Variations in humidity can be an issue. If you put the frets on in very
wet weather and it then becomes very dry, your frets are likely to
loosen at least a little (fret gut will swell with the damp). Where I
live, the relative humidity can plummet within a few hours when the
cold, dry mistral wind blows.
I think that both Martin Shepherd and Travis Carey have done videos on
tying frets.
Best,
Matthew
> On Mar 9, 2018, at 2:28, Tristan von Neumann
<[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
>
> My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after
some time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them,
they become loose.
To get on or off this list see list information at
[2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

--

References

1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Tristan von Neumann]

How would you tighten the frets? I tried burning off the knot a bit more 
so it pulls together. Does work sometimes.

I could put pieces of matches under the fret, but that's cheating :)

Am 09.03.2018 um 05:09 schrieb spiffys84121:
It is quite easy to tighten frets when they become loose. It baffles me 
when I see lutes with shims on several frets. Changing your frets when 
they are loose is like changing your shoe laces every time they become 
loose. Just tighten those frets!

Sterling



Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 Original message 
From: Tristan von Neumann 
Date: 3/8/18 6:28 PM (GMT-07:00)
To: lutelist Net 
Subject: [LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after some
time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them, they
become loose.
Actually I find some differences in tone very appealing.
Even if some pieces sound dark or harsh, I try to think of it as color
and not a flaw.
I don't know how this was in different climate zones of Europe, but is
there a region where Lutes are always in tune, considering the "Little
Ice Age" of course, not today's reemerging from it.
But with gut and mostly difficult weather conditions back then, I might
want to think that we're already in Lute Heaven with being able to
choose our room temperature and even avoid gut strings if you're ok with
it...
I sometimes wonder who Archicembali were kept in tune...

Am 08.03.2018 um 18:39 schrieb Daniel Shoskes:
 > I don’t have OUP access so can’t read the entire review, but would be 
rather surprised to have a criticism boil down to Dolata's thesis was 
“the frets can move so they must have moved”. I read the book a couple 
of years ago but glancing through it again there is a balanced and 
measured weighing of evidence including iconography, spacing of 
historical fixed fret instruments and multiple vihuela, viol and lute 
sources including Galilei. If someone can share the entire review with 
me I would be happy to re-evalutate and reconsider. For me personally, 
spending most of my plucking in the d minor tuning world, equal 
temperament is the norm.

 >
 > Returning to the original question of the original poster, the book 
contains practical advice for tuning in meantone temperaments using the 
ear and/or a commercial electronic tuner and deals with pros and cons 
for solo and ensemble players.

 >
 > Danny
 >
 >> On Mar 8, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Andreas Schlegel 
 wrote:

 >>
 >> There’s a different view here:
 >> A. Otterstedt, Fretting about tuning (review of D. Dolata, Meantone 
temperaments on lutes and viols, Bloomington und Indiana, 2016), in: 
Early Music, cax101, https://doi.org/10.1093/em/cax101

 >>
 >> Andreas
 >>
 >>> Am 08.03.2018 um 16:09 schrieb Daniel Shoskes :
 >>>
 >>> For an excellent book by a musicologist and busy lute performer 
(solo and continuo), I highly recommend “Meantone Temperaments on Lutes 
and Viols” by David Dolata. Indiana University Press 2016. History 
covered in part 1, theory in part 2 and practicalities in part 3 (by ear 
and using a tuning device).

 >>>
 >>> goo.gl/9Aewv2 
 >>>
 >>>
  On Mar 8, 2018, at 9:54 AM, Matthew Daillie 
 wrote:

 
  I totally agree with Martin Shepherd (indeed two of our messages 
said the same thing) but what is the valid point Ron was making ??

 
  Leonard's original post was a question about his method for tuning 
1/4 comma meantone, not whether it was appropriate or not to use it on 
lutes, a can of worms I certainly did not wish to open (personally I use 
both equal and 1/5 comma mean-tone on my lutes).

 
  Best,
  Matthew
 
 
  On 08/03/2018 15:31, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
 >   Ron and Martin have valid points - in particular the advocacy 
of a true
 >   meantone is something of a chimera on the lute. Indeed, this 
matter of

 >   non-equal temperament on lutes has been considered on this forum a
 >   number of times before - just search the archives.  For example 
this

 >   some seven years ago (and quite a few much more recently):
 > * [1]Martyn Hodgson 
 
 
 
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 >>>
 >>>
 >>> --
 >>
 >> Andreas Schlegel
 >> Eckstr. 6
 >> CH-5737 Menziken
 >> Festnetz +41 (0)62 771 47 07
 >> Mobile +41 (0)78 646 87 63
 >> lute.cor...@sunrise.ch
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >> --
 >
 >
 >
 >

[LUTE] Re: Loose frets

[Martyn Hodgson]

   I'm pleased to hear it. Another advantage of double frets is that,
   being twice the length, the their elastic deformation and recovery is
   physically superior to a single: in short, you can move them around
   more (if you're that way inclined) without them becoming as loose as a
   single loop would.
   A yet further advantage is that the loop closer to the nut takes most
   of the wear leaving the fret loop closer to the bridge with a cleaner
   take-off for a longer period than a wholly single loop.
   rgds
   MH
 __

   From: Matthew Daillie 
   To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
   Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 11:33
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Loose frets
   I've never had issues with single knots.
   Best,
   Matthew
   On 09/03/2018 11:39, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
   >  Indeed. And it also depends whether single fret loops are employed
   >(something of a modern fad) rather than the  better, and easier to
   tie
   >firmly, historical double fret loops
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Loose frets

[Matthew Daillie]

I've never had issues with single knots.
Best,
Matthew

On 09/03/2018 11:39, Martyn Hodgson wrote:

  Indeed. And it also depends whether single fret loops are employed
(something of a modern fad) rather than the  better, and easier to tie
firmly, historical double fret loops





To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Loose frets

[Martyn Hodgson]

   Indeed. And it also depends whether single fret loops are employed
   (something of a modern fad) rather than the  better, and easier to tie
   firmly, historical double fret loops
   MH
 __

   From: Matthew Daillie 
   To:
   Cc: lutelist Net 
   Sent: Friday, 9 March 2018, 9:27
   Subject: [LUTE] Loose frets
   If your frets are becoming loose after a short period then it's
   probably because you didn't pull them tight enough in the first place
   (I am presuming you use gut frets). Make sure that you are giving them
   enough leeway to tighten properly when you pull them towards the
   bridge. They need almost a whole position to get nicely tight, so when
   you put the third fret on, for example, tighten it close to the second
   fret before moving it up the fingerboard. The first fret is generally
   the most difficult to get tight as, due to the peg box, there is less
   room to manoeuvre.
   Variations in humidity can be an issue. If you put the frets on in very
   wet weather and it then becomes very dry, your frets are likely to
   loosen at least a little (fret gut will swell with the damp). Where I
   live, the relative humidity can plummet within a few hours when the
   cold, dry mistral wind blows.
   I think that both Martin Shepherd and Travis Carey have done videos on
   tying frets.
   Best,
   Matthew
   > On Mar 9, 2018, at 2:28, Tristan von Neumann
   <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote:
   >
   > My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after
   some time. Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them,
   they become loose.
   To get on or off this list see list information at
   [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

   --

References

   1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Loose frets

[Matthew Daillie]

If your frets are becoming loose after a short period then it's probably 
because you didn't pull them tight enough in the first place (I am presuming 
you use gut frets). Make sure that you are giving them enough leeway to tighten 
properly when you pull them towards the bridge. They need almost a whole 
position to get nicely tight, so when you put the third fret on, for example, 
tighten it close to the second fret before moving it up the fingerboard. The 
first fret is generally the most difficult to get tight as, due to the peg box, 
there is less room to manoeuvre.
Variations in humidity can be an issue. If you put the frets on in very wet 
weather and it then becomes very dry, your frets are likely to loosen at least 
a little (fret gut will swell with the damp). Where I live, the relative 
humidity can plummet within a few hours when the cold, dry mistral wind blows.
I think that both Martin Shepherd and Travis Carey have done videos on tying 
frets.
Best,
Matthew


> On Mar 9, 2018, at 2:28, Tristan von Neumann  wrote:
> 
> My frets move even if I don't want them to move... at least after some time. 
> Maybe my knots are not good enough. But once you move them, they become loose.



To get on or off this list see list information at
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: meantone tuning tech

[Rainer]

On 08.03.2018 13:18, Martin Shepherd wrote:

I should just point out that there are no pure fifths in meantone temperaments. 
 The fifths are close to pure in equal temperament, just 2 cents narrow, but in 
meantone temperaments they are much more narrow.

I usually use 6th comma, and I do find the fifths useful as a tuning check, but 
only because I know by ear how flat they should sound.  I often play (as 
arpeggios) a sequence:

c1c2a3, a1a2c4, d2d3a4, etc.

To check that all the fifths are equally narrow. (and the octaves are perfect).


Many years ago I checked which tuning methods have perfect octaves and unisons.

That's a simple problem in linear algebra - trivial.

There is only one solution: Equal temperament.

Rainer  




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