[LUTE] Re: Lautenband

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Rainer,

there are lute straps as the sand on the sea, very much ...

As you are searching for a provider in your country, have a look on the website 
of lute builder Schossig.


Best

Joachim
 


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Lautenband
Datum: 2020-09-20T09:42:13+0200
Von: "Rainer" 
An: "Lute net" 

Auf Deutsch, weil ich das nicht im Ausland kaufen will:

Ich will doch noch mal versuchen mit einem Band zu spielen - Lauten kann man 
bekanntlich nicht halten.

Spezielle Bänder für Lauten gibt es wohl nicht - wozu auch. Gitarrenbänder gibt 
es wie Sand am Meer (der wird wohl langsam knapp).

Kann jemand ein Fabrikat empfehlen?

Rainer



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[LUTE] Re: Ringfinger

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Hui! Prima! I even had forgotten about what Le Roy had to say on right-hand 
fingers.

Thanks Rainer and ev'ryone else!
 
Joachim

-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Ringfinger
Datum: 2020-08-31T13:41:07+0200
Von: "Rainer" 
An: "Lute List" 

 From Judenkunig's

Utilis et compendiaria introductio (1510-20 (?), no year)

Preterea admonendus es ut literas et characteres numeri quotquot ordinatim 
signis notarum supponuntur,
singulas eorum cordas singulis digitis (si modo digitorum dextre numerum non
excedunt) discretim aut si plures sunt quam quatuor, digitorumque numerum
superant, simul uno ictu pollicis oberrando percucias pulsesque.

Die einzelnen Chorsaiten der Buchstaben und Ziffern sollen mit je einem Finger 
angeschlagen
werden, falls sie nicht etwa die Zahl der Finger der rechten Hand überschreiten.
Sind es aber mehr als vier Chorsaiten und überschreiten die Zahl der Finger, 
sollen
sie (alle) zugleich mit einem Daumenschlag gestreift werden.

German translation by Hans Radke

Anybody crazy enough to provide an English translation?
Anyway, this clearly indirectly states that the third finger of the right hand 
was used.

See

Hans Radke
Acta Musicologica, Vol. 52, Fasc. 2 (Jul. - Dec., 1980), pp. 134-147



Am 30.08.2020 um 21:10 schrieb Martin Shepherd:
> Le Roy (1568/74) explains it all...
> 
> M
> 
> On 30/08/2020 17:14, Leonard Williams wrote:
>>     Good question--I have a hard time getting my ring finger working well,
>>     especially switching between single-note runs and four-note chords.  I
>>     can't separate it far enough from my pinky. How were chords of more
>>     than three notes played without ring finger in thumb-in play?
>>     Regards,
>>     Leonard Williams
>>     -Original Message-
>>     From: yuval.dvo...@posteo.de
>>     To: lute net ; Lute arc
>>     
>>     Sent: Sun, Aug 30, 2020 8:59 am
>>     Subject: [LUTE] Ringfinger
>>     Dear all,
>>     first of all I'd like to express my sincerest gratitude towards Wayne
>>     for creating this great forum! Unfortunately I became only a member a
>>     few years ago, but still I enjoyed much of the discussions here! I
>>     hope,
>>     that the list will continue also after Wayne's retirement!
>>     The actual reason for writing is this time about the use of the
>>     ringfinger of the right hand in 16th/early 17th century lute music.
>>     What
>>     do we know about it? When did lute players start to use it? It would be
>>     great to collect some sources, with your generous help! Also ideas for
>>     modern literature is appreciated!
>>     Have a nice sunday and enjoy lute playing
>>     Yuval
>>     To get on or off this list see list information at
>>     [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>     --
>>
>> References
>>
>>     1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
> 




[LUTE] Re: Red notes in Eysert

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Rainer, dear all,


there is nothing of that in the copies I have from Klima's introduction to his 
"Themenverzeichnis".

Best

Joachim


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Red notes in Eysert
Datum: 2020-08-24T09:40:51+0200
Von: "Rainer" 
An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 

In Eysert or the Linzer Lautenbuch in some pieces whole bars or groups of bars 
are in red - very strange.

Perhaps we can find something in:

Josef Klima, Das Lautenbuch des Michael Eysert, Norimbergensis (vor 1600): das 
"Linzer Lautenbuch" : Original im Oberösterreichischen Landesarchiv : 
Themenverzeichnis
Wiener Lautenarchiv

Publisher J. Klima, 1977

Unfortunately this is not available here at the university library nor at JSTOR:

Rainer


Am 24.08.2020 um 01:50 schrieb Leonard Williams:
> In Mudarra's third book of Tres Libros there are a couple of pieces
> where he picks out the vocal line with apostrophes in the tablature.
> Could the Eysert red notes be similar in intent?  (Would the player be
> singing, or might the singer be a tab reader?)
> Leonard Williams
> -Original Message-
> From: Jussi-Pekka Lajunen 
> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Sent: Sun, Aug 23, 2020 6:04 pm
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Red notes in Eysert
> Maybe they are used to show where the intabulation does not follow the
> original vocal model? The chords in those parts seem to differ from the
> harmony of the original pieces.
> Sarge Gerbode kirjoitti 23.8.2020 klo 20.22:
> > After putting out the first 50 pages of the Eysert Lute Book, I
> > realize that I have ignored the red notes, figuring that they were
> > faded ink or a meaningless idiosyncrasy of the scribe.  But now I am
> > wondering if they do, in fact, actually mean something. fronimo can
> do
> > red notes, so... Anybody have any thoughts about this?
> >
> > --Sarge
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> --
> 
> References
> 
> 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 




[LUTE] Re: Weird instrument depiction in painting

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Oversized Oirish or Scottish Harp painted by someone who is accustomed to have 
yer soundboxes made from planks, ;)

Slàinte 

Joachim


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Weird instrument depiction in painting
Datum: 2020-07-20T20:04:41+0200
Von: "Tristan von Neumann" 
An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 

I just stumbled upon this painting by Reinhold Timm.

It supposedly shows the musicians of Christian IV.

What's the instrument on the left?

It looks like a Harp seen from a very weird angle...

The painting is very interesting in general, it looks almost like some
1920s Neorealism.


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Christian_IV%27s_musicians_by_Reinhold_Timm.jpg




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[LUTE] Sales ads for "original" nineteenth-century instruments

[Joachim Lüdtke]

   Dear Lute Listers,


   a few weeks ago I noticed the first sales activities concerning
   instruments described as 19th century guitars. Yesterday a link to an
   ad on Wayne Cripp's lute page appeared in the Ning Lute Group
   announcing the sale of a "Gorgeous and unique" original
   nineteenth-century guitar. As in at least one case before, this is
   clearly not an original instrument. It is rather a patchwork of older
   pieces (in this case the body and possibly more parts of a
   twentieth-century guitar from one of the musical instruments factories
   in Saxonia with an earlier instrument maker's label glued into it) and
   more recent parts.


   I think one should remind the public of the Franciolini case and the
   way the Franciolini and other workshops of the nineteenth and early
   twentieth century put together "original" instruments from parts of
   older instruments plus whatever was at hand, sometimes producing things
   which at first sight look impressive, often bringing collectors to
   buying the crap (excuse my French) so that today musical instruments
   collections have a lot of such watchamacallits in their repositories
   ...


   Truely original instruments are shown and described in several recent
   publications. The books of Sinier & de Ridder will be too costly for
   many (and Sinier & de Ridder may not be free from going into the err
   sometimes) and the same may be true for the large catalogue of the
   Vienna guitar maker's work (Stauffer & Co. by Hofmann, Mougin & Hackl),
   but there are also the publications by Westbrook (The Century that
   Shaped the Guitar, and others), Uli Wedemeier's Guitar Collection
   (showing a splendid Chitarrone too), and the Website Early Romantic
   Guitar, which all may be consulted to compare pictures and data of real
   originals to those made up ...


   Just my pennyworth


   Joe the Poor Luter


   P.S.: This is the Lute List, but as the link to the ad appears in the
   Lute Group and the ad in the Lute Page of Wayne, my post should be ok
   too.



    --


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[LUTE] Re: Vanishing lute tops - or not?

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Thank you, David, you are a real mine of information!


Joachim


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Vanishing lute tops - or not?
Datum: 2020-06-13T14:26:49+0200
Von: "David Van Edwards" 
An: "lute List" 

Dear Jörg,

I cover this towards the end of this essay on a related matter.

https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/month/nov00/month.htm

Best wishes,

David


>Dear collected wisdom,
>
>there are quite a lot of different ideas of how 
>to vanish lute tops (or not). How was it with 
>the old instruments? Were they 
>always/sometimes/never vanished? What do we 
>really know?
>
>Thanks
>Jörg
>
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


-- 
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB  
England.

Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk





[LUTE] Re: Vanishing lute tops – or not?

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Hydrochloric acid applied in an appropriate quantity and manner might do the 
job ... ;) We all fall victim to spellcheckers from time to time ...

Apart from joking: Do we really know something about the goings on concerning 
varnish or sealing (wax?) being applied to lute soundboards of them olden ages? 
I do not remember anything, and it seems that guitar soundboards where not 
varnished prior to the late 1820s or even 1830. Builders and restorers seem 
however to agree that soundboards where not left totally unprotected.

Fain would I learn more myself


Best

Joachim



 


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Vanishing lute tops – or not?
Datum: 2020-06-13T13:39:26+0200
Von: "Jörg Hilbert" 
An: "lute List" 

Dear collected wisdom,

there are quite a lot of different ideas of how to vanish lute tops (or not). 
How was it with the old instruments? Were they always/sometimes/never vanished? 
What do we really know?

Thanks 
Jörg



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[LUTE] Re: Laute - periodical

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Monica,

that should be Die Laute. Jahrbuch der Deutschen Lautengesellschaft 11 (2013). 
The information that it is published in Stuttgart is wrong. The place is 
Frankfurt/Main. ISSN 1437-3378.

All best

Joachim



Lektorat & Korrektorat
Dr. Joachim Lüdtke
Blumenstraße 20
D-90762 Fürth
Tel.: 0911 / 976 45 20
Mail: jo.lued...@t-online.de
www.lektorat-luedtke.de
 
Mitglied im Verband der freien Lektorinnen und Lektoren
www.vfll.de
www.lektoren.de/profil/joachim-luedtke
 


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Laute - periodical
Datum: 2020-06-09T16:26:16+0200
Von: "Monica Hall" 
An: "LuteList" 

Does anyone have any knowledge of a periodical called Laute published in 
Stuttgart. I am looking for an article in vol. xi, 2013.

Many thanks

Monica
--

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[LUTE] Re: 7c. Lute music

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Martin, dear all

-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: 7c. Lute music
Datum: 2020-06-05T18:18:42+0200
Von: "Martin Shepherd" 
An: "Lute List" 

[snip]
Incidentally, this is also the tuning used in an early MS (Thibault?), 

= I-Bu MS 596. HH. 24; I-PESo MS 1144

Just my pennywoth

Joachim



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[LUTE] Re: funny video

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Nice shredding on the Quinterne!



-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] funny video
Datum: 2020-05-22T13:55:57+0200
Von: "Tristan von Neumann" 
An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFwyEs0ID6U


I just found this... great playing and a funny idea.



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[LUTE] Re: Lute strap

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Not to forget the picture of two guy playing in Castaldi's Capricci a due 
stromenti … :)



-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Lute strap
Datum: 2020-05-22T13:26:04+0200
Von: "Ralf Mattes" 
An: "Tristan von Neumann" 

 
Am Freitag, 22. Mai 2020 12:24 CEST, Tristan von Neumann 
 schrieb: 
 
> I am going to make myself a nice lute strap.
> 
> So I have been digging through paintings...
> 
> Weirdly, no one ever seems to use any form of strap...

Look closer/search better. Just two:

- https://www.vanedwards.co.uk/spencer/html/spencer4.htm, last picture on page.
- the chitarrone player from the medici band as depicted on Torelli's Theorbo 
method
  (or here 
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ce/b0/1c/ceb01c35498e2df02fd664caa582f1e7.jpg)

I think you'll find more at Watteau et al.

 Cheers, RalfD

> 
> How did they manage to play?
> 
> Or did the painters not bother painting them?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
 
-- 
Ralf Mattes

Hochschule für Musik Freiburg
Projektleitung HISinOne
Schwarzwaldstr. 141, D-79102 Freiburg
http://www.mh-freiburg.de
 






[LUTE] Oops:Double Top

[Joachim Lüdtke]

   And what I simply forgot in my first mail on this topic: Among the
   newly built guitars shown and played during the guitar days at the
   Bremen Hochschule there actually was at least one with a
   Sandwich/Laminate/Double Top, plus there was one with a
   soundboard/barring construction following the principles and ideas of
   Steve Klein, but with a quite 'traditional' outline. That I personally
   could not make much difference between the instruments when played may
   have been due to my bad ear as much as to the fact, that one and the
   same woman played all the instruments to the people attending, and that
   this woman is known for her good, personal sound production on the
   guitar. In short: I suspect that she could have easily brought out
   different strengths and weaknisses of different instruments but seemed
   to rather bring the best out of them within the limits of a
   'conventional' classic guitar sound spectrum.


   There also was a lecture by one of the young guitar builders who among
   other topics covered soundboard construction methods, including
   sandwich construction. At one point he summed it up with the words: "It
   all sounds guitar to me, and when it would not, it would alarm me."



   Joachim


 Thank you John, David, and everyone else who replied and contributed
   so
  far! My lute/guitar lexigraphy is quite a bit enriched now.
  As to the lute: I think I prefer the traditional construction and
  materials for the historic instrument.
  All best
  Joachim


   Lektorat & Korrektorat

   Dr. Joachim Lüdtke

   Blumenstraße 20

   D-90762 Fürth

   Tel.: 0911 / 976 45 20

   Mail: [1]jo.lued...@t-online.de

   [2]www.lektorat-luedtke.de


   Mitglied im Verband der freien Lektorinnen und Lektoren

   [3]www.vfll.de

   [4]www.lektoren.de/profil/joachim-luedtke




    --

References

   1. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de
   2. http://www.lektorat-luedtke.de/
   3. http://www.vfll.de/
   4. http://www.lektoren.de/profil/joachim-luedtke


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[LUTE] AWR2D2: Double Top

[Joachim Lüdtke]

   Thank you John, David, and everyone else who replied and contributed so
   far! My lute/guitar lexigraphy is quite a bit enriched now.


   As to the lute: I think I prefer the traditional construction and
   materials for the historic instrument.



   All best


   Joachim






   -Original-Nachricht-

   Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Double Top

   Datum: 2020-03-26T00:18:46+0100

   Von: "John Mardinly" 

   An: "Joachim Lüdtke" 




   I have heard the terminology ‘composite top’ and ’sandwich top’ in
   addition to ‘double top’, and they all refer to similar construction,
   although the earliest ‘double top’ guitars used a layer of a hexagonal
   synthetic material called Nomex in between the two paper thin layers on
   wood.
   A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
   Classical Guitarist/Lutenist

   On Mar 25, 2020, at 9:56 AM, Joachim Lüdtke <[1]jo.lued...@t-online.de>
   wrote:

   Dear David, dear list,
   I was a bit puzzled at first because I know the term double top, but
   only pointing to instruments like e.g. Marcard guitars with a second,
   'interior' soundboard. What you describe is what I think is usually
   called a sandwiched soundboard. Is my terminology too limited or do I
   use it too strictly?
   A few weeks ago, before the darn Corona guy rode into town, there were
   guitar days here in the Hochschule für Kunst und Musik in Bremen, and
   there were young builders showing their recently finished guitars, and
   one of the guitar teachers of the Hochschule playing a few measures on
   each of them. Most sounded excellent, and I am ashamed to say that I
   couldn't make much difference between the majority of the sounds,
   neither did I ask for prices …
   Best from the Hanseatics
   Joachim
   -Original-Nachricht-
   Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top
   Datum: 2020-03-25T17:44:36+0100
   Von: "David Smith" <[2]d...@dolcesfogato.com>
   An: "Tristan von Neumann" <[3]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>,
   "[4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <[5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   That cost is what a master builder charges for classical guitars -
   10k-20k is pretty normal. The cost of doing a double top is really not
   that high. The materials are not expensive and vacuum is used for a lot
   of other things in the shop. I use it for attaching bridges and holding
   instruments while French polishing. The Dammann price is based on his
   reputation and not on it being a double top. You should be able to find
   good quality double tops starting around 3-4k.
   As to using it on a lute, you have to like the sound of it because it
   is clearly not historical. I, personally, do not like the sound of
   double tops that much. They sacrifice character for volume, imho. But,
   if you are trying to fill a concert hall without a microphone then
   there are already a lot of sacrifices being made and the double top is
   just one more. For a more intimate setting I think it is overkill. The
   bracing from Trevor Gore (Falcate system -
   [6]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__goreguitars.com
   .au_main_page-5Finnovation-5Fsummary-5Ffalcate-5Fbracing.html=DwIFaQ&
   c=l45AxH-kUV29SRQusp9vYR0n1GycN4_2jInuKy6zbqQ=VLPJ8OE-c_C6joGeE1ftlvx
   MmQPq9N6mpKZONBRt90E=ftBiwVy6my8Jghtq9GSLqxpeyK73pixj5LSQEZHAiYQ=hl
   0F5qUAGqTuToEdzrjzuTjZ3Rl4kFVBRh16ZCVLBts= ) is more interesting. It
   makes for a very even sound throughout the instrument and provides more
   volume as well. Would I use it on a lute. Not likely.
   Anyway, some random thoughts.
   David
   -Original Message-
   From: [7]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
   <[8]lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> On Behalf Of Tristan von
   Neumann
   Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:18 AM
   To: [9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double Top
   For that money, I'd buy a Lute consort...
   I don't see any advantage...
   On 25.03.20 11:40, Jurgen Frenz wrote:

 I read about the process to make such an instrument - from memory
 the two slices are glued together under vacuum, to me it sounds like
 quite a costly process. The guitars made by the inventor of this
 technology Matthias Dammann cost 15 000 € a pop.
 Jürgne
 ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
 On Wednesday, March 25, 2020 2:04 AM, Mark Probert
 <[10]probe...@gmail.com> wrote:

 John wrote:

 Question is, has this been tried on a lute? Are there any luthiers
 interested in trying?

 Interesting technology. As applied to a lute? Not so sure.
 I suspect someone will but most won't as there is not really any
 advantage and much disadvantage (the lamination process for
 starters,
 workin with nomex or similar, etc.).
 The problem this construction "fixes" is loudness. While there may
 be
 occassions when a lute is too soft, making up for it with an overly
 stiff soundboard would, I suspect, take away much of what makes a
 lute sound the 

[LUTE] Re: Double Top

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear David, dear list,

I was a bit puzzled at first because I know the term double top, but only 
pointing to instruments like e.g. Marcard guitars with a second, 'interior' 
soundboard. What you describe is what I think is usually called a sandwiched 
soundboard. Is my terminology too limited or do I use it too strictly?

A few weeks ago, before the darn Corona guy rode into town, there were guitar 
days here in the Hochschule für Kunst und Musik in Bremen, and there were young 
builders showing their recently finished guitars, and one of the guitar 
teachers of the Hochschule playing a few measures on each of them. Most sounded 
excellent, and I am ashamed to say that I couldn't make much difference between 
the majority of the sounds, neither did I ask for prices …


Best from the Hanseatics

Joachim
-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Double Top
Datum: 2020-03-25T17:44:36+0100
Von: "David Smith" 
An: "Tristan von Neumann" , "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 


That cost is what a master builder charges for classical guitars - 10k-20k is 
pretty normal. The cost of doing a double top is really not that high. The 
materials are not expensive and vacuum is used for a lot of other things in the 
shop. I use it for attaching bridges and holding instruments while French 
polishing. The Dammann price is based on his reputation and not on it being a 
double top. You should be able to find good quality double tops starting around 
3-4k.

As to using it on a lute, you have to like the sound of it because it is 
clearly not historical. I, personally, do not like the sound of double tops 
that much. They sacrifice character for volume, imho. But, if you are trying to 
fill a concert hall without a microphone then there are already a lot of 
sacrifices being made and the double top is just one more. For a more intimate 
setting I think it is overkill. The bracing from Trevor Gore (Falcate system - 
https://goreguitars.com.au/main/page_innovation_summary_falcate_bracing.html) 
is more interesting. It makes for a very even sound throughout the instrument 
and provides more volume as well. Would I use it on a lute. Not likely.

Anyway, some random thoughts.

David

-Original Message-
From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 
 On Behalf Of Tristan von Neumann
Sent: Wednesday, March 25, 2020 9:18 AM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double Top

For that money, I'd buy a Lute consort...

I don't see any advantage...


On 25.03.20 11:40, Jurgen Frenz wrote:
> I read about the process to make such an instrument - from memory the two 
> slices are glued together under vacuum, to me it sounds like quite a costly 
> process. The guitars made by the inventor of this technology Matthias Dammann 
> cost 15 000 € a pop.
>
> Jürgne
>
>
>
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Wednesday, March 25, 2020 2:04 AM, Mark Probert  wrote:
>
>> John wrote:
>>
>>> Question is, has this been tried on a lute? Are there any luthiers 
>>> interested in trying?
>> Interesting technology. As applied to a lute? Not so sure.
>> I suspect someone will but most won't as there is not really any 
>> advantage and much disadvantage (the lamination process for starters, 
>> workin with nomex or similar, etc.).
>>
>> The problem this construction "fixes" is loudness. While there may be 
>> occassions when a lute is too soft, making up for it with an overly 
>> stiff soundboard would, I suspect, take away much of what makes a 
>> lute sound the way it does.
>>
>> Consider the following article for more
>>
>> https://www.guitarsalon.com/blog/?p=1467
>>
>> Kind regards
>>
>> .. mark.
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at 
>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
>
>






[LUTE] Re: Everyone OK?

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Leonard,


this is Olde Yurrup speaking: it's not the plague, but it can remind one of 
what happened tempore pestis. Covid 19/Corona virus will not be the reason 
behind the quietness on this list at the moment, but one has to prepare for 
some difficult months for everyone who depends on playing e.g. lute continuo in 
baroque operas, or festival concerts or so ...

All best, thanks for you posting,

and all: don't contract the virus!


Joachim


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Everyone OK?
Datum: 2020-03-11T20:12:20+0100
Von: "Leonard Williams" 
An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 

   Things have been rather quiet on the list...I hope everyone is OK
   during this stressful period!
   Best regards,
   Leonard Williams

   --


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


[LUTE] Re: Off topic to German members

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Wind is a constant of any weather here. You miss something when it doesn't blow.


So: Blow, Sabine, and crack thy cheeks!


Jo the Word Botcher


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Off topic to German members
Datum: 2020-02-09T18:07:38+0100
Von: "Rainer" 
An: "Lute net" 

Stürmisch ist es bei uns im Norden erst, wenn die Schafe keine Locken mehr 
haben.

Rainer



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[LUTE] Re: SMT Website down?

[Joachim Lüdtke]

   Lektorat & Korrektorat

   Dr. Joachim Lüdtke

   Blumenstraße 20

   D-90762 Fürth

   Tel.: 0911 / 976 45 20

   Mail: [1]jo.lued...@t-online.de

   [2]www.lektorat-luedtke.de


   Mitglied im Verband der freien Lektorinnen und Lektoren

   [3]www.vfll.de

   [4]www.lektoren.de/profil/joachim-luedtke






   -Original-Nachricht-

   Betreff: AW: [LUTE] SMT Website down?

   Datum: 2020-02-07T14:08:16+0100

   Von: "Joachim Lüdtke" 

   An: "Petrus Paulus Maria Steur" 




   Thank you, Peter!



   Markus is right, but trying out the INDEX link and a few of the others
   I only receive error messages: the "Wayback Machine", one says, had not
   archived the link. In other words: We do have the front page of the
   site, but not the lists of titles and concordances a.s.o.


   If I find the time I will contact the BNU which hosted the site until
   X. More requests and questions from other people might help ...


   All best



   Gioacchino detto Il Tedesco del Liuto






   -Original-Nachricht-

   Betreff: Re: [LUTE] SMT Website down?

   Datum: 2020-02-07T12:38:11+0100

   Von: "Petrus Paulus Maria Steur" 

   An: "Joachim Lüdtke" 




   I've noticed this already for some time now. However, Markus Lutz told
   me it can still be reached over the web-archive:

   [5]https://web.archive.org/web/20170805151607/https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/som
   maire.htm

   Peter
   Il giorno ven 7 feb 2020 alle ore 11:28 Joachim Lüdtke
   <[6]jo.lued...@t-online.de> ha scritto:

Dear Lute listers,
does anybody on this list know what happened to the Website of
 Meyer's
Sources manuscrites en tablature? The links normally leading to
 the
index page fail (error 404), and Google-dee-doo only produces
 hits for
the print publications.
Best
Joe the Word Botcher
Lektorat & Korrektorat
Dr. Joachim Lüdtke
Blumenstraße 20
D-90762 Fürth
Tel.: 0911 / 976 45 20
Mail: [1][7]jo.lued...@t-online.de
[2][8]www.lektorat-luedtke.de
Mitglied im Verband der freien Lektorinnen und Lektoren
[3][9]www.vfll.de
[4][10]www.lektoren.de/profil/joachim-luedtke
 --
 References
1. mailto:[11]jo.lued...@t-online.de
2. [12]http://www.lektorat-luedtke.de/
3. [13]http://www.vfll.de/
4. [14]http://www.lektoren.de/profil/joachim-luedtke
 To get on or off this list see list information at
 [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

    --

References

   1. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de
   2. http://www.lektorat-luedtke.de/
   3. http://www.vfll.de/
   4. http://www.lektoren.de/profil/joachim-luedtke
   5. 
https://web.archive.org/web/20170805151607/https://w1.bnu.fr/smt/sommaire.htm
   6. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de
   7. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de
   8. http://www.lektorat-luedtke.de/
   9. http://www.vfll.de/
  10. http://www.lektoren.de/profil/joachim-luedtke
  11. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de
  12. http://www.lektorat-luedtke.de/
  13. http://www.vfll.de/
  14. http://www.lektoren.de/profil/joachim-luedtke
  15. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] SMT Website down?

[Joachim Lüdtke]

   Dear Lute listers,



   does anybody on this list know what happened to the Website of Meyer's
   Sources manuscrites en tablature? The links normally leading to the
   index page fail (error 404), and Google-dee-doo only produces hits for
   the print publications.



   Best


   Joe the Word Botcher


   Lektorat & Korrektorat

   Dr. Joachim Lüdtke

   Blumenstraße 20

   D-90762 Fürth

   Tel.: 0911 / 976 45 20

   Mail: [1]jo.lued...@t-online.de

   [2]www.lektorat-luedtke.de


   Mitglied im Verband der freien Lektorinnen und Lektoren

   [3]www.vfll.de

   [4]www.lektoren.de/profil/joachim-luedtke




    --

References

   1. mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de
   2. http://www.lektorat-luedtke.de/
   3. http://www.vfll.de/
   4. http://www.lektoren.de/profil/joachim-luedtke


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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: Milan's name

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Not only among Jews, Roman! If every Oesterreicher, Frankfurter or 
what-you-have would be Jewish, there would be no problem for any small Kehillah 
anywhere here to find a Minjan for the Service …


Joachim

-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Datum: 2020-01-07T11:18:18+0100
Von: "r.turov...@gmail.com" 
An: "Tristan von Neumann" 

Toponymical surnames are prevalent among Jews: Toledo, Rovira, Palma and 
Palmieri, Venezia etc etc.
RT 


http://turovsky.org
Feci quod potui. Faciant meliora potentes.

> On Jan 6, 2020, at 8:48 AM, Tristan von Neumann  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On 06.01.20 05:50, howard posner wrote:
>> And wouldn’t a Milanese refer to the city as Milano?
>> 
> 
> I guess not. Back then it seems that all city names were somehow
> transformed into the other languages.
> 
> Even today it's probably considered fancy if you call it like the
> natives, especially for German cities.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKGoVefhtMQ
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




[LUTE] Milan's name

[Joachim Lüdtke]

In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan … I am not a home for the next few days, 
but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by the Sociedad de la 
Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into the commentary and see if 
there is any evidence mentioned for Milán, de Milán or similar.

Best

Joachim



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[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?

[Joachim Lüdtke]

The title page of the Libro de motes … has Luys Milan too

I have not seen El Cortesano for quite a while …

All best

Joachim 


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
Datum: 2020-01-05T10:13:43+0100
Von: "Albert Reyerman" 
An: "Tristan von Neumann" , "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 


Wrong, Tristan.

The only source we have with his name given
is EL MAESTRO.
Here his name is prited Luys Milan (sic)
No apostroph.

Regards
Albert

TREE  EDITION
Albert Reyerman
Finkenberg 89
23558 Luebeck
Germany

albertreyer...@kabelmail.de
www.tree-edition.com
0451 899 78 48
---
Fine Art Paintings
Anke Reyerman
www.anke-reyerman.de

Am 04.01.2020 um 20:02 schrieb Tristan von Neumann:
> May I just add something outrageous:
>
>
> This guy is literally called "Milán". How sure are we that he's not of
> Italian origin?
>
>
> On 04.01.20 19:59, Antonio Corona wrote:
>> Dear Ron,
>>
>> Thank you for your kind words. Again, I think we should be wary of 
>> speculations where the known facts points in another direction. While 
>> there is indeed a possibility of Italian influence in Milán, 
>> especially considering that the viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of 
>> Aragón, Duke of Calabria, I still believe that putting together Milán 
>> and Verdelot is pushing the evidence too far merely on the basis of a 
>> vague possibility (which I cannot share -the dates of their 
>> publications suggest otherwise); on the other hand, we have no way of 
>> knowing how much influence Castiglione's book might have had on 
>> Milán: at least there is none to be found in his own Cortesano. In my 
>> view all the arguments in favour of an Italian direct musical 
>> influence on Milán remain purely speculative.  I cannot give credence 
>> to them.
>>
>> On the other hand, resorting to the contents of Valderrábano and 
>> Fuenllana is, again, misleading. Both vihuelists belong to a later 
>> phase and school (I call it Castilian as opposed to the earlier 
>> Valencian) and should not be used as a basis for comparison. The mere 
>> fact that both included a large amount of intabulations as opposed to 
>> the contents of El Maestro -where there are none-, not to mention the 
>> altogether different style of their fantasias, as well as the fact 
>> that both Valderrábano and Fuenllana were professional musicians at 
>> the service of nobility, whereas Milán was an amateur (probably a 
>> member of the lesser nobility as suggested by the "Don"), their 
>> "nationality": Castilian versus Valencian, and even the type of 
>> tablature they used should put us on our guard against a direct 
>> comparison and therefore considering them on the same category.
>>
>> I´m afraid that I shall need more solid evidence to convince me that 
>> Milan used the music of Verdelot (or any of the other great composers 
>> intabulated by later vihuelists) as a model or otherwise for his own 
>> music. As it stands now, I must stress it again, such a suggestion is 
>> firmly rooted on speculation and nothing more.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>> Antonio
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>   On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 09:19:07 GMT-6, Ron Andrico 
>>  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>     Thanks, Antonio.  I must say it is heartwarming to know you are 
>> such a
>>    champion for the music of Milan.  I appreciate his role as a 
>> pioneer in
>>    Spanish instrumental music and as an advocate of the viheula and its
>>    significance in courtly life.  But I don't think it is much of a
>>    speculation to say that he was influenced by Italian examples,
>>    including Verdelot's madrigals and Castiglione's much earlier example
>>    of a guide to courtly custom.  I think if you'll examine the large
>>    amount of intabulated polyphony found in the books of Fuenllana 
>> (1552)
>>    and Valderrabano (1547), both of which contain several 
>> intabulations of
>>    music by Verdelot, as well as Arcadelt, Compere, Gombert, Josquin,
>>    Mouton, Sermisy and Willaert, you must admit there is a chance Milan
>>    had access to examples for his instrumental settings.
>>
>>    RA
>> __
>>
>>    From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu
>>     on behalf of Antonio Corona
>>    
>>    Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2020 9:21 AM
>>    To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
>>    Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
>>
>>    Oops ... a mistake.
>>    In the paragraph wich reads:
>>    Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court
>>    of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has 
>> little
>>    in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, was 
>> published in
>>    a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which
>>    the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time
>>    Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in
>>    1561, a long time after.
>>    The part which states "in 1534 - the same year in 

[LUTE] Re: Vous Usurpe

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Joseph Mayes,

you are right: that's incomprehensible because I have produced errors over 
errors! The name of the composer is not Victor Wadenbaiß, as I wrote, but 
Victor Wadenshnapp. He is the bandleader of the group Victor Wadenshnapp und 
die Veganen Vampire (their first album, now lost, was titled "The 
Transsylvanian Lute", further albums have not appeared). But he was even not 
the composer of the piece I thought of, and the title of this piece is not 
"Donnerstag aus Lärm" but "Mittwoch aus Licht", composed by the late 
Stockhausen. But there is no part for Liuto asper in "Mittwoch aus Licht", and 
it may be that there is even no instrument called Liuto asper (yet, would 
someone among the lute builders on this list volunteer to invent and build 
one?).

To sum up: this all was nonsense and intended as such ...

Best

Jo the Word Botcher

-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Vous Usurpe
Datum: 2019-12-20T19:37:37+0100
Von: "Mayes, Joseph" 
An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" , "Joachim Lüdtke" 


.and here I thought that I was Jo the clueless luter.

Joseph Mayes
________
From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 
 on behalf of Joachim Lüdtke 

Sent: Friday, December 20, 2019 1:21 PM
To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
Subject: [LUTE] Re: Vous Usurpe

Is it possible that it is not "Vous usurpe", but a mistitled intabulation of 
the Liuto asper part from Victor Wadenbaiß`s "Donnerstag aus Lärm" instead?

Just my pennyworth

Jo the clueless luter


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Vous Usurpe
Datum: 2019-12-20T17:25:25+0100
Von: "Rainer" 
An: "Lute net" 

Dear lute netters,

does anybody know what happened to "Vous Usurpe" on page 23 of the music 
supplement to Lute News 99?

The piece looks like a failed automatic conversion form Italian to French 
tablature.

The music sounds more like Boulez than Marco Dall' Aquila :)

Rainer



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html







[LUTE] Re: Vous Usurpe

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Is it possible that it is not "Vous usurpe", but a mistitled intabulation of 
the Liuto asper part from Victor Wadenbaiß`s "Donnerstag aus Lärm" instead?

Just my pennyworth

Jo the clueless luter 


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Vous Usurpe
Datum: 2019-12-20T17:25:25+0100
Von: "Rainer" 
An: "Lute net" 

Dear lute netters,

does anybody know what happened to "Vous Usurpe" on page 23 of the music 
supplement to Lute News 99?

The piece looks like a failed automatic conversion form Italian to French 
tablature.

The music sounds more like Boulez than Marco Dall' Aquila :)

Rainer



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


[LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear David, dear Arthur,

this is one I examined alongside other portrait etchings or engravings (among 
them some ridiculous ones) meant to represent Melchior and Hans Newsidler and 
Hans Gerle. Originals are in the art collections of the Town of Nuremberg. I 
thought I would find them to be printed on quite recent papers but found, that 
old ones had been used (possibly seventeenth century or even earlier …).

All best

Joachim 


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again
Datum: 2019-11-12T11:50:28+0100
Von: "David Van Edwards" 
An: "Arthur Ness" 

Dear Arthur,

Very interesting second engraving, thank you. 
Which shows his other ear with the same shape at 
the top, not like the Oslo painting. Is there 
evidence linking the Oslo painting with Newsidler?

Best wishes,

David



At 02:43 + 12/11/19, Arthur Ness wrote:
>Reportedly he and his companion traveled over the Alps to Innsbruck
>during a blizzard.  He was with Philippe Camerarius, an associate of
>Martin Luther who had recently been freed from being imprisoned by the
>Roman Inquisition.  They traveled through Siena where they stayed at
>the Inn of the Mermaid (or Siren, a symbol associated with Siena;  the
>Siena Lute Book has a watermark representing a siren).
>Here's another engraving of MN aged 43:
>https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47e1-d59b-a3d9-e040-e00a1
>8064a99
>Arthur
>-Original Message-
>From: Joachim LˆÉ¬ºdtke 
>To: David Van Edwards 
>Cc: Tristan von Neumann ;
>lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
>Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2019 8:59 am
>Subject: [LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again
>  At 12:48 +0100 11/11/19, Joachim LˆÉ¬ºdtke wrote:
>Well, in winter 1565, while his lute books were set and printed in
>Venice, Melchior together with some fellow Germans went over the
>Alps, in deep snow and at freezing temperature. Some piece of
>hard-frozen snow or ice may have hit him during the passage ˆÖ  ;)
>Joachim
>dler's portrait, again
>Datum: 2019-11-11T12:02:50+0100
>
>--
>
>
>To get on or off this list see list information at
>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


-- 
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB  
England.

Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk





[LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Arthur,

a few years ago I collected the information concerning this winter passage over 
the alps from the travel diary of Camerarius, put it together with another 
guy's findings on Melchior Newsidler's life and had it published in the 
quarterly of the German lute society. I tried to locate a manuscript of the 
travel diary which once was in the library or archive of the Reformed church in 
Erlangen, but neither the present day Reformed community nor the Theological 
Seminary of the Erlangen University (where the manuscript was temporarily moved 
to) know of any such source any more …

All best

Joachim

-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again
Datum: 2019-11-12T03:45:38+0100
Von: "Arthur Ness" 
An: "jo.lued...@t-online.de" , "da...@vanedwards.co.uk" 


   Reportedly he and his companion traveled over the Alps to Innsbruck
   during a blizzard.  He was with Philippe Camerarius, an associate of
   Martin Luther who had recently been freed from being imprisoned by the
   Roman Inquisition.  They traveled through Siena where they stayed at
   the Inn of the Mermaid (or Siren, a symbol associated with Siena;  the
   Siena Lute Book has a watermark representing a siren).
   Here's another engraving of MN aged 43:
   https://digitalcollections.nypl.org/items/510d47e1-d59b-a3d9-e040-e00a1
   8064a99
   Arthur
   -Original Message-
   From: Joachim Ldtke 
   To: David Van Edwards 
   Cc: Tristan von Neumann ;
   lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 
   Sent: Mon, Nov 11, 2019 8:59 am
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again
 At 12:48 +0100 11/11/19, Joachim Ldtke wrote:
   Well, in winter 1565, while his lute books were set and printed in
   Venice, Melchior together with some fellow Germans went over the
   Alps, in deep snow and at freezing temperature. Some piece of
   hard-frozen snow or ice may have hit him during the passage ��  ;)
   Joachim
   dler's portrait, again
   Datum: 2019-11-11T12:02:50+0100

   --


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[LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again

[Joachim Lüdtke]

   It's also well possible that he met with highway men!


   :)








   -Original-Nachricht-

   Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again

   Datum: 2019-11-11T13:03:31+0100

   Von: "David Van Edwards" 

   An: "Joachim Lüdtke" 




   But it would have to have been on the way back! Was that in Winter too?
   ;)

   David



   At 12:48 +0100 11/11/19, Joachim Lüdtke wrote:

 Well, in winter 1565, while his lute books were set and printed in
 Venice, Melchior together with some fellow Germans went over the
 Alps, in deep snow and at freezing temperature. Some piece of
 hard-frozen snow or ice may have hit him during the passage Å  ;)
 Joachim
 dler's portrait, again
 Datum: 2019-11-11T12:02:50+0100

 Von: "David Van Edwards" 

 An: "Tristan von Neumann" 

 Even the museum don't say it is German, the artists suggested are
 Italian
 http://samling.nasjonalmuseet.no/en/object/NG.M.01341#
 But Melchior did visit Italy in 1565, 9 years
 before his undoubted portrait by Stimmer. And the
 resemblance is possible but slight. The main
 difference is the top half of his left ear which
 Stimmer shows as flattened rather than curled
 forwards. Maybe he was attacked in the
 intervening 9 years!?
 Is there any real evidence though?
 Best wishes,
 David
 At 11:32 +0100 11/11/19, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
 >Please Joachim :)
 >
 >There is nothing to be learned if just those broad statements are
 uttered.
 >
 >What makes you think that it is not a contemporary portrait?
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >On 11.11.19 11:23, Joachim Lüdtke wrote:
 >>Well, he can. You can say; the traffic light is
 >>green, not red. And: it is not a contemporary
 >>portrait by a German painter, Roman is right.
 >>
 >>All best
 >>
 >>Joachim
 >>
 >>-Original-Nachricht-
 >>Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again
 >>Datum: 2019-11-11T05:59:46+0100
 >>Von: "Tristan von Neumann" 
 >>An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
 >>
 >>You just repeated yourself...
 >>
 >>You cannot say "is from the 1600s" for what you perceive as a
 style,
 >>without any explanation...
 >>
 >>
 >>:)
 >>
 >>T*
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>On 11.11.19 04:41, Roman Turovsky wrote:
 >>>Neusiedler was Cranach the Younger's contemporary.
 >>>The portrait in question stylistically is from the 1600's.
 >>>It also doesn't look look German.
 >>>RT
 >>>
 >>>On 11/10/2019 3:20 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
 Roman, what is your rationale for your stylistic argument?
 
 
 
 
 On 10.11.19 20:04, Roman Turovsky wrote:
 >What is the rationale for ascribing the sitter to be
 Neusiedler?
 >The painting stylistically at least a generation later than the
 >Neusiedler's life dates.
 >RT
 >
 >
 >
 >On 11/10/2019 11:03 AM, Wayne Cripps wrote:
 >>I posted Arthurâ°Ë?s picture of Melchior Newsidler at
 >>
 >>https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-old/MN_OsloJ3.jpg
 >>
 >>  Wayne
 >>
 >>
 >>
 >>To get on or off this list see list information at
 >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 --
 The Smokehouse,
 6 Whitwell Road,
 Norwich,  NR1 4HB
 England.
 Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk



--

   The Smokehouse,
   6 Whitwell Road,
   Norwich,  NR1 4HB
   England.

   Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
   Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk

    --

[LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Well, in winter 1565, while his lute books were set and printed in Venice, 
Melchior together with some fellow Germans went over the Alps, in deep snow and 
at freezing temperature. Some piece of hard-frozen snow or ice may have hit him 
during the passage … ;)

Joachim





dler's portrait, again
Datum: 2019-11-11T12:02:50+0100
Von: "David Van Edwards" 
An: "Tristan von Neumann" 

Even the museum don't say it is German, the artists suggested are Italian

http://samling.nasjonalmuseet.no/en/object/NG.M.01341#

But Melchior did visit Italy in 1565, 9 years 
before his undoubted portrait by Stimmer. And the 
resemblance is possible but slight. The main 
difference is the top half of his left ear which 
Stimmer shows as flattened rather than curled 
forwards. Maybe he was attacked in the 
intervening 9 years!?

Is there any real evidence though?

Best wishes,

David



At 11:32 +0100 11/11/19, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
>Please Joachim :)
>
>There is nothing to be learned if just those broad statements are uttered.
>
>What makes you think that it is not a contemporary portrait?
>
>
>
>
>On 11.11.19 11:23, Joachim Lüdtke wrote:
>>Well, he can. You can say; the traffic light is 
>>green, not red. And: it is not a contemporary 
>>portrait by a German painter, Roman is right.
>>
>>All best
>>
>>Joachim
>>
>>-Original-Nachricht-
>>Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Melchior Newsidler's portrait, again
>>Datum: 2019-11-11T05:59:46+0100
>>Von: "Tristan von Neumann" 
>>An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 
>>
>>You just repeated yourself...
>>
>>You cannot say "is from the 1600s" for what you perceive as a style,
>>without any explanation...
>>
>>
>>:)
>>
>>T*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On 11.11.19 04:41, Roman Turovsky wrote:
>>>Neusiedler was Cranach the Younger's contemporary.
>>>The portrait in question stylistically is from the 1600's.
>>>It also doesn't look look German.
>>>RT
>>>
>>>On 11/10/2019 3:20 PM, Tristan von Neumann wrote:
>>>>Roman, what is your rationale for your stylistic argument?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>On 10.11.19 20:04, Roman Turovsky wrote:
>>>>>What is the rationale for ascribing the sitter to be Neusiedler?
>>>>>The painting stylistically at least a generation later than the
>>>>>Neusiedler's life dates.
>>>>>RT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>On 11/10/2019 11:03 AM, Wayne Cripps wrote:
>>>>>>I posted Arthur⤁s picture of Melchior Newsidler at
>>>>>>
>>>>>>https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-old/MN_OsloJ3.jpg
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  Wayne
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>>>>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


-- 
The Smokehouse,
6 Whitwell Road,
Norwich,  NR1 4HB  
England.

Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899
Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk





[LUTE] Re: M. H. L.

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Kassel, Murhard'sche Bibliothek und Landesibibliothek,  4° Ms. Mus. 108.1, the 
lute book of princess Elisabeth of Hassia, comes to mind. Facsimile edited by 
Axel Halle. There is a Ph.D. on the manuscript by Claudia Knispel.


Best

Joachim 


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: M. H. L.
Datum: 2019-07-29T11:19:51+0200
Von: "Yuval Dvoran" 
An: "Tristan" , "lute" 

I never met him before, unfortunately. Is there any edition of his works or an 
important manuscript with his works?Am 29.07.2019 10:58 schrieb Tristan von 
Neumann :
>
> Moritz composed a bunch of pieces, maybe it's an intabulation of another 
> one. 
>
> You might want to check. 
>
>
> On 29.07.19 10:48, Yuval Dvoran wrote: 
> > No, unfortunately it's not the Pavan from Variety of Lute Lessons :-(Am 
> > 29.07.2019 10:36 schrieb Tristan von Neumann : 
> >> Moritz, Hessen's Landgrave? 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Check if there's concordance with the Pavan in A Varietie of Lute Lessons. 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> On 29.07.19 10:32, Yuval Dvoran wrote: 
> >>> Good morning, 
> >>> 
> >>> In a manuscript from around 1600 on which I'm currently doing some 
> >>> research there is a Pavana with a note "M. H. L.". Any ideas which 
> >>> composer / lutenist this could be? 
> >>> The manuscript comes from the region of German/Netherland. 
> >>> 
> >>> Very curious, if anybody has to offer an solution! :-) 
> >>> 
> >>> Yuval 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at 
> >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 
> >>> 
> >> 
>
>




[LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Well, the tags refer to Gerle and Dowland because they both stand for a certain 
period, and both have written about setting frets – and ay, there's the rub, 
because Dowland cited Gerle's much earlier instructions, including a 
miscalculation.

It would be nice to have a lute from Gerle's workshop. The man was an 
instrument builder as well as a teacher of both viols and lute, but there is 
not a single Instrument known from his Hands, only the six-course lute from a 
later member of the Gerle family which is in Vienna today.

Best

Joachim-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
Datum: 2019-07-20T12:42:16+0200
Von: "Jurgen Frenz" 
An: "jo.lued...@t-online.de" 

I had the impression that the downloadable xcel sheet by the American Lute 
Society says so because it names tunings "Gerle's lute" and "Downland's lute" 
among others - I would be glad to learn better.

https://home.cs.dartmouth.edu/~lsa/download/index.html

Best
Jurgen


--
“Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.”

Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, July 20, 2019 2:37 PM,  wrote:

> ‎That must be some misunderstanding - there are no instruments on which one 
> could base Gerle or Dowland tmperaments.
>
> Best
>
> Jo
>
>   Originalnachricht  
> Von: Jurgen Frenz
> Gesendet: Samstag, 20. Juli 2019 05:40
> An: Daniel Shoskes
> Antwort an: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Cc: Lute List; Tristan von Neumann
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Lute Temperaments
>
> from what I read the fret calculators on the net are based on historic 
> instruments - hence a distinct Gerle and Dowland tuning because they are 
> taken from the fret marks on the neck of different instruments.
> @ Daniel Shoskes, I wonder with 1/6th comma tuning what is the reference 
> pitch as a tuning where the fundamental is G would result in different 
> pitches compared to a tuning based on A. Another thing, would all common keys 
> sound 'better' as you describe it, i.e. where are the limits as of keys? The 
> Dowland Coranto for instance which is basically in F minor contains C major 
> and Db major chords among others.
>
> Best wishes
> Jurgen
>
>
> 
>
> “Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.”
>
> Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Saturday, July 20, 2019 6:15 AM, Daniel Shoskes kidneykut...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
> > For my Renaissance lute I prefer 1/6 comma. Not too extreme if the keys 
> > stray but noticeably brighter than equal for most solo music. Even if you 
> > prefer equal, it’s handy to know how to get to 1/6 comma if you ever play 
> > in a mixed ensemble.
> > If you have access to the latest LSA Quarterly, the “Lute Forum” section 
> > has a discussion on meantone temperament with contributions from Sylvan 
> > Bergeron and Lucas Harris. Lucas is of the opinion that tuning using a fret 
> > placement calculator is inferior to tuning by ear with an electronic tuner 
> > because fret calculators don’t take into account factors such as action 
> > that can alter the placement.
> > If you have access to the archives, there is also a good article by Richard 
> > Kolb in the Spring 2009 edition.
> > Danny
> >
> > > On Jul 19, 2019, at 12:04 PM, Tristan von Neumann 
> > > tristanvonneum...@gmx.de wrote:
> > > I know this is a wide topic...
> > > Today, I changed my fret setup from Gerle to Dowland (Thanks to Mr.
> > > Niskanen and his marvellous calculator), because I mostly play later
> > > 16th century music.
> > > It sounds somewhat "brighter" in the keys preferred then.
> > > Maybe I will also try what Galilei recommended.
> > > Which one did you try and which one do you prefer (for solo playing).
> > > What are your thoughts on character vs. versatility?
> > > To get on or off this list see list information at
> > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




[LUTE] Re: Julian Bream on Lute

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear all,

quite interesting, where that leads to: Meinel (instead of Meinl) = Meinel & 
Herold, makers of plucked instruments in the ex-GDR.  Ammon Johannes Meinel 
built lutes from the 1950s on. If the monogramm is AM, then it might be him, 
but he will surely not be alife anymore (born in 1903). There are a number of 
other members of the family who built guitars, mandolins, and lutes, including 
a Robert Meinel. Some were sold over firms but had the maker's label too ...

The Meinl which moved from Saxonia into the West, on the other hand, are best 
known for the production of 'historical' brass instruments ...


Best

Joachim
 


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Julian Bream on Lute
Datum: 2019-06-26T04:21:29+0200
Von: "George Foster" 
An: "Edward Martin" 

Actually, if you look closely, I think it is AM, for, I believe, August Meinel. 
I have seen similar lutes with the same mark attributed to him. Or it could be 
Anton. A number of years ago there were some discussions about the mark on the 
net but I can’t find them now.

Sent from my iPad

> On Jun 25, 2019, at 6:10 PM, Edward Martin  wrote:
> 
> Yes, correct
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Jun 25, 2019, at 5:09 PM, John Mardinly  wrote:
>> 
>> The initials “RM” are engraved on the top at the end of the fingerboard.
>> 
>> A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E.
>> 
>> 
>>> On Jun 25, 2019, at 3:06 PM, Edward Martin  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Thank you Jo. I do not think I need to investigate further as this is 
>>> probably made by them. 
>>> 
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>> 
 On Jun 25, 2019, at 4:58 PM,  
  wrote:
 
 Dear Edward,
 
 there are many Meinl - one ‎came from a region in Saxonia where many 
 instrument builders were working into what was then West Germany and 
 opened the firm Meinl & Lauber which ist still existing. No plucked 
 strings though, but in the former GDR lutes of the "intermediary" type 
 where built by Workshops run by the socialist state, sometimes under the 
 name of former owners, sometimes using the names just as labels. Your lute 
 will have come from one of these shops. I am not sure how production was 
 run there but I suspect that if your lute was built by an individual 
 builder (as opposed to being assembled by a group where one did bending 
 the ribs, one glueing them together a.s.o.) his name would not have been 
 Meinl. You might learn more by asking the stuff of the 
 Musikinstrumentenmuseum Markneukirchen.
 
 Best
 Jo the Lone Luter
 
 Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone.
 Originalnachricht  
 Von: Edward Martin
 Gesendet: Dienstag, 25. Juni 2019 23:11
 An: Christopher Stetson
 Antwort an: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
 Cc: Lute List
 Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Julian Bream on Lute
 
 
 Speaking of that very lute, I recall it was made by “Meinl”. Does anyone 
 know anything about Meinl?  Was the instrument constructed by an 
 individual builder of that name, or was Meinl the name of a company?
 
 I am curious. I bought that lute 42-43 years ago, and it was built by an 
 individual, is Meinl still alive?
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
> On Jun 25, 2019, at 12:30 PM, Christopher Stetson 
>  wrote:
> 
> Sellers often don't pay much attention to such matters, and many seem
> to think that "rosewood" gets more views.   Or they might have just
> copied it from a Roosebeck listing.
> 
> On Tue, Jun 25, 2019 at 11:47 AM Daniel Heiman
> <[1]heiman.dan...@juno.com> wrote:
> 
> Interesting that it is described as rosewood, when it looks an awful
> lot
> like curly maple, and the description says 16 strings for a
> conventionally
> strung 8-course Renaissance lute with 15 strings total.
> Daniel
> -Original Message-
> From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> [mailto:[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf
> Of Edward Martin
> Sent: Monday, June 24, 2019 11:08 PM
> To: Christopher Stetson <[4]christophertstet...@gmail.com>
> Cc: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Julian Bream on Lute
>Christopher and all,
>Thanks for putting that e-bay link for the old Bream style lute.
>I
>looked at the photos, and the instrument looked somewhat
> familiar.
>Low and behold, I saw a familiar name on the case - Edward A.
> Martin!
>That was my first lute,I purchased it on consignment back in
> about
>1976 from a guitar shop in Minneapolis, the Podium!I recall
> selling
>it to someone, and I see it is still around!How interesting!
>It
>was made by someone by the name Meinl from (at the time) East
> Germany.
>Thanks, a nice trip down memory lane!!
>ed
>On Mon, Jun 24, 2019 at 10:39 PM Christopher Stetson
>

[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

[Joachim Lüdtke]

   D'accord: it works well with the thumb stretched out. This is not what
   puzzles me, but the question does why he did not let the description of
   playing diminutions follow directly after the description of the basic
   thumb-out position and playing. The music of the Thesaurus Harmonicus
   comes in books (of Preludes, or Passamezi, or Courantes a.s.o.), and
   the whole print is, like these huge late sixteenth/early seventeenth
   century manuscript anthologies of lute music from Germany, organized
   like an encyclopedia. Only the treatise is, at least as to the
   right-hand technique, a bit meandering – or so it seems to me, ;)


   Best wishes,


   Joachim





   -Original-Nachricht-

   Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

   Datum: 2019-03-11T22:43:07+0100

   Von: "magnus andersson" 

   An: "Lute List" , "Joachim Lüdtke"
   






   "Besard's treatise is a bit puzzling because he first instructs his
   readers to use a thumb-out technique (except when one has a short
   thumb, as Martin has already written), but later describes thumb-index
   alteration for diminutions, except when the bass is too active."

   I don´t see any reason for enpuzzlement here, thumb-index alteration
   can work great with the thumb stretched out.

   A question out of curiosity: I recall having looked through quite a few
   of the iconographic sources a while ago, and
   to my surprise I can´t remember seeing that the thumb-inside technique
   was being used on any instruments with 7 or more courses. Anyone out
   there who can provide any paintings that proves that assumption wrong?
   Is it true that thumb-out on 6 courses seem to have been more common
   than thumb-in on 7c (or more courses), if we only look at the
   iconographic material?

   Best wishes,

   Magnus
   On Monday, March 11, 2019, 10:12:41 PM GMT+1, Joachim Lüdtke
wrote:


   Well, Vallet states that if one finds a single dot beneath a
   ‎(tablature) letter, it is to be plucked with the first finger. Two
   small lines mean the second finger, and if there is none of these, the
   thumb plays the course. There is a lot of music in in Paradisus Musicus
   Testudinis which is without the signs for the second finger, but I do
   not think that this means it is to be played thumb under, and only
   those pieces which have the sign for the second finger are to be played
   thumb out. ;)

   Besard's treatise is a bit puzzling because he first instructs his
   readers to use a thumb-out technique (except when one has a short
   thumb, as Martin has already written), but later describes thumb-index
   alteration for diminutions, except when the bass is too active.

   In the englished version in Varietie of Lute Lessons, the passages are
   C verso and C2 recto.



   Dear Ron,

   I will look this up in the sources when I am back home on Sunday, but I
   think Martin is right.

   Best

   Joachim

   P.S. You are right too, concerning historical playing technique vs what
   a lot of us do today, but I would not insist on 1600 as the point from
   whence they didn't underthumb their scales anymore

   Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone.
 Originalnachricht
   Von: Ron Andrico
   Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 13:59
   An: Martin Shepherd; Lute List
   Antwort an: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky


 Perhaps the mis-remembered quotation is a conflation of Besard and
 Vallet, who recommended thumb-index for fast passages.  Nevertheless,
 music from around 1600 forward in time should be played with the
   thumb
 out if we are to follow the written advice and the iconography.  I
 still see far too may baroque lute and theorbo players using
 thumb-under, which is patently absurd given both the historical
 precedent and the physical layout of extended bass instruments.
   Isn't
 it about time lute players moved forward from the guitarist versus
 lutenist nonsense from the 1970s and played according to actual
 historical examples?
   __

 From: [2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[3]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on
   behalf
 of Martin Shepherd <[4]mar...@luteshop.co.uk>
 Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 8:23 AM
 To: Lute List
 Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

 Dear All,
 Just from memory - Besard insists on thumb-out technique as being the
 best, but allows that people with short thumbs may find thumb-inside
 easier.  I find it inconceivable that he would change hand position
 during a piece, and see no reason why you should not use thumb-index
 alternation in fast runs with thumb out - flamenco guitarists do it
   all
 the time.
 The fingering dots in the ML lute book (c.1640) give an interesting
 indication of this.  In Dowland's fantasia 

[LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Well, Vallet states that if one finds a single dot beneath a ‎(tablature) 
letter, it is to be plucked with the first finger. Two small lines mean the 
second finger, and if there is none of these, the thumb plays the course. There 
is a lot of music in in Paradisus Musicus Testudinis which is without the signs 
for the second finger, but I do not think that this means it is to be played 
thumb under, and only those pieces which have the sign for the second finger 
are to be played thumb out. ;)

Besard's treatise is a bit puzzling because he first instructs his readers to 
use a thumb-out technique (except when one has a short thumb, as Martin has 
already written), but later describes thumb-index alteration for diminutions, 
except when the bass is too active.

In the englished version in Varietie of Lute Lessons, the passages are C verso 
and C2 recto.



Dear Ron,

I will look this up in the sources when I am back home on Sunday, but I think 
Martin is right.

Best

Joachim

P.S. You are right too, concerning historical playing technique vs what a lot 
of us do today, but I would not insist on 1600 as the point from whence they 
didn't underthumb their scales anymore

Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone.
  Originalnachricht  
Von: Ron Andrico
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 13:59
An: Martin Shepherd; Lute List
Antwort an: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky


   Perhaps the mis-remembered quotation is a conflation of Besard and
   Vallet, who recommended thumb-index for fast passages.  Nevertheless,
   music from around 1600 forward in time should be played with the thumb
   out if we are to follow the written advice and the iconography.  I
   still see far too may baroque lute and theorbo players using
   thumb-under, which is patently absurd given both the historical
   precedent and the physical layout of extended bass instruments.  Isn't
   it about time lute players moved forward from the guitarist versus
   lutenist nonsense from the 1970s and played according to actual
   historical examples?
 __

   From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu  on behalf
   of Martin Shepherd 
   Sent: Wednesday, March 6, 2019 8:23 AM
   To: Lute List
   Subject: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky

   Dear All,
   Just from memory - Besard insists on thumb-out technique as being the
   best, but allows that people with short thumbs may find thumb-inside
   easier.  I find it inconceivable that he would change hand position
   during a piece, and see no reason why you should not use thumb-index
   alternation in fast runs with thumb out - flamenco guitarists do it all
   the time.
   The fingering dots in the ML lute book (c.1640) give an interesting
   indication of this.  In Dowland's fantasia (Poulton 1, ML ff.14v-15r)
   all runs are marked to be played middle-index, except where a running
   passage has infrequent bass notes (f.15, second system) which have no
   double dots (meaning middle), so presumably to be be played
   thumb-index.   Once the bass notes become more frequent (and the speed
   of the treble movement stays the same, 3rd and 4th systems) the
   middle-index alternation returns.  Then a fast cadential formula (end
   of
   system 5) lacks any double dots and is therefore thumb-index.
   I'm sure there are many other examples like this.  Nigel North's recent
   talk at the Lute Society gave many interesting examples of RH
   fingerings.
   Martin
   On 06/03/2019 08:06, jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote:
   > Sorry: 'original', naturally!
   >
   > Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone.
   >Originalnachricht
   > Von: jo.lued...@t-online.de
   > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 07:49
   > An: Lute net
   > Antwort an: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
   >
   >
   > Dear Alan, dear Jurgen,
   >
   > There is something to that effect in all 'oroginal' versions of
   Besard's instructions, that is: 1603 and 1617. I do not remember if ye
   text englished contains the passage...
   >
   > Best
   >
   > Joachim
   >
   >
   >Originalnachricht
   > Von: Alain Veylit
   > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 6. März 2019 04:32
   > Antwort an: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
   > Cc: Lute net
   > Betreff: [LUTE] Re: right hand technique -- bending the pinky
   >
   >
   > Jurgen,
   >
   > It's been a while and I was quoting from memory... but I am sure I
   saw
   > it somewhere - perhaps the instructions translated in English in the
   > Varietie of Lute Lessons?
   >
   > Or maybe the use of dots in Thesaurus Harmonicus ...
   >
   > Alain
   >
   > On 3/4/19 11:11 PM, Jurgen Frenz wrote:
   >> It would be totally excellent if you'd find out where Besard made
   that suggestion.
   >> Thanks,
   >> jurgen
   >>
   >>
   >> --
   >> "There is a voice that doesn't use words. 

[LUTE] Re: Il primo libro d'intavolatura di liuto Galilei repeat bars

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Ed

the Minkoff facsimile comes with an introduction (in English as well as in 
French) by Claude Chauvel. He cites and translates Galilei's adress to the 
readers. No help with your question, though ...

Uwe Wolf has written in his PhD thesis (published 1992) something to the effect 
that the repeat sign would mean to leave out in the repeat what makes the first 
measure of the first part complete, but then his example is music where this 
first measure begins with pauses, not with notes as in the piece in question 
here. Personally, I do more or less so: play the half note as a quarter note, 
insert a 'breath' and go on with notes two and three of the first measure. I am 
not aware of any contemporary instructions or explanations which would be of 
help here, but that does not mean that there aren't any ...

Best

Joachim

-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Il primo libro d'intavolatura di liuto Galilei repeat bars
Datum: 2019-01-05T12:28:00+0100
Von: "Ed Durbrow" 
An: "Matthew Daillie" , "lute list" 


What you type more or less aligns with the way I interpret it, if I understand 
you correctly. However, some well known players do not interpret it so. For 
example, in the first C maj volt, they hold the half note at the repeat mark 
bar for three beats and then start over. I and you, I think, would hold it for 
two beats and insert the last beat of measure one on the repeat. I was 
wondering if they know something we don’t, if Galilei mentions anything (my 
original question), if (there must be) other examples of similar structures and 
if any contemporary explains what to do.

Again if anybody can point me to an English translation, it would be fun to 
read even though there may not be any information on repeats.

> On Dec 25, 2018, at 11:15 PM, Matthew Daillie  
> wrote:
> 
> From what I've seen it's pretty straightforward, you just need to replace the 
> upbeat at the end of the bar with the repeat sign with the anacrusis of the 
> first bar. Sometimes the note values of the anacrusis are not the same but 
> this doesn't really matter as one is making a pause before starting the piece 
> again from the beginning. The values of the last beat of the repeat bars work 
> fine when playing straight through the second time round.
> Despite Galilei's claims to the contrary, there are a few printers mistakes 
> too and there is doubtlessly an element of improvisation in the way the 
> introductory anacruses should be played anyway (as perhaps indicated, for 
> example, by the occasional long note values).
> Best,
> Matthew 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Dec 25, 2018, at 12:51, Joachim Lüdtke  wrote:
>> 
>> that is what I found in the introduction too, and still you have to cope 
>> with the Situation Ed describes. I tend to your No 2, Ed!
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html





[LUTE] Re: Il primo libro d'intavolatura di liuto Galilei repeat bars

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Ed, dear Matthew,

that is what I found in the introduction too, and still you have to cope with 
the Situation Ed describes. I tend to your No 2, Ed!


Cheers, Joachim


P.S.: I still have a number of copies of the Minkoff facsimile I anyone is 
interested




Lektorat & Korrektorat
Dr. Joachim Lüdtke
Blumenstraße 20
D-90762 Fürth
Tel.: 0911 / 976 45 20
Mail: jo.lued...@t-online.de
www.lektorat-luedtke.de
 
Mitglied im Verband der freien Lektorinnen und Lektoren
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-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Il primo libro d'intavolatura di liuto Galilei repeat bars
Datum: 2018-12-25T12:42:07+0100
Von: "Matthew Daillie" 
An: "Ed Durbrow" 

The Minkoff facsimile provides an English translation. Here is an extract:
'... since my sonatas might offer some difficulty to... players not yet very 
experienced in this art... these people must be satisfied with playing simply 
the first and second part of the Correnti and Volte, which they may repeat 
without the diminutions and this will not make the the sonata imperfect.'

Best,
Matthew


> On Dec 25, 2018, at 2:41, Ed Durbrow  wrote:
> 
> It looks like Michelagnolo Galilei doesn’t give any instructions in his book, 
> but could an Italian speaker confirm that? Is there an English translation of 
> his dedication and author page anywhere?
> What I’m interested in at the moment is whether he gives any guidance on how 
> to perform repeats. He has two kinds of repeat signs: the normal one that is 
> at the end of a full bar and one that is in the middle of a bar. Repeats 
> mostly occurs in voltas because most other pieces have written out style 
> brisé passages. 
> 
> Of the second kind, typically, the first section ends on a half note or 
> quarter note with a repeat sign under the remaining notes. There are two 
> possible interpretations. 
> 1. Hold the first beat of the last measure for three full beats then repeat 
> from the very beginning.
> 2. Combine the last measure and the first making just one measure.
> In the second interpretation, one assumes that on the repeat playing one 
> would start with the last quarter of the first measure after a half note in 
> the last measure. He is not always so straightforward though. For example 
> there might be a dotted quarter at the end of a section but three quarter 
> notes at the start. I wonder if he mentions anything in the Italian text.
> 
> Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan
> See my latest video at:
> http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
> https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan
> http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
> https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html




[LUTE] Re2: A little known manuscript

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Arthur, dear Rainer, dear list,

I've asked a friend who is a keyboardist and has done research in sources which 
contain music by Hammerschmidt and others. He confirms that the appearance of 
the writing points to a Breslau/Wroclaw provenience and suggests looking for 
the Hammerschmidt pieces in emblematic musical prints (of Hammerschmidt, I add 
here). The Scheidt piece (nr. 80) is from SSWV 55 (from Ludi musici I), he 
thinks. The source itself is not new to him, but until now he only knew it from 
the SSWB: PL-Wru 60417 Muz.

I find the mixture of olde and newe here interesting. It is a bit like in 
German lute manuscripts of the early to mid seventeenth century, where late 
sixteenth-century music mixes with later baroque pieces.

Best

Joachim
 


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: A little known manuscript
Datum: 2018-05-27T22:40:42+0200
Von: "Joachim Lüdtke" <jo.lued...@t-online.de>
An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>


Dear Rainer,

I didn't know this keyboard book – thank you for your mail and the link. What a 
pity that they scanned an old microfilm and not the original. I seems a pretty 
ms.!

Best wishes,

Joachim


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] A little known manuscript
Datum: 2018-05-25T17:07:52+0200
Von: "Rainer" <rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
An: "Lute net" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>

Dear lute netters,

John Robinson told me about a manuscript With new German organ tablature:

http://www.bibliotekacyfrowa.pl/dlibra/doccontent?id=18797

I have not found anything about it in JSTOR or Oxford Journals. Nothing on 
Google except an article about a different MS that mentions the name.

The MS seems to contain a few concordances for well known pieces for lute. The 
very first piece is "Paduan Lachrime", There is a Durette and Phillips' famous 
pavan(?).
The second piece is "Galliarda Gregorii" (Huwet?).

On the other hand there are several pieces by Andreas Hammerschmidt who was 
born in 1611 or 1612 and hence belongs to a generation 50 years after Dowland.

Piece 116 is "Aria Langsam" Langsam is German "slowly". This is remarkable - 
since it is in German.
Piece 115 has the title "Balletta geschwindt" - geschwind = fast.

On folio 26 appears "Largo".


Last page: Perhaps the MS was called 40935 before the war.
Apparently it once belonged to Robert Weigelt in Breslau, possibly the painter 
and photographer (1815-1879).

This seems to be an interesting manuscript.

Does anybody know anything about it?

Could somebody who can read new German organ tablature fluently check the 
pieces I have mentioned above against possible lute concordances?

Best wishes,

Rainer



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[LUTE] Re: A little known manuscript

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Rainer,

I didn't know this keyboard book – thank you for your mail and the link. What a 
pity that they scanned an old microfilm and not the original. I seems a pretty 
ms.!

Best wishes,

Joachim


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] A little known manuscript
Datum: 2018-05-25T17:07:52+0200
Von: "Rainer" 
An: "Lute net" 

Dear lute netters,

John Robinson told me about a manuscript With new German organ tablature:

http://www.bibliotekacyfrowa.pl/dlibra/doccontent?id=18797

I have not found anything about it in JSTOR or Oxford Journals. Nothing on 
Google except an article about a different MS that mentions the name.

The MS seems to contain a few concordances for well known pieces for lute. The 
very first piece is "Paduan Lachrime", There is a Durette and Phillips' famous 
pavan(?).
The second piece is "Galliarda Gregorii" (Huwet?).

On the other hand there are several pieces by Andreas Hammerschmidt who was 
born in 1611 or 1612 and hence belongs to a generation 50 years after Dowland.

Piece 116 is "Aria Langsam" Langsam is German "slowly". This is remarkable - 
since it is in German.
Piece 115 has the title "Balletta geschwindt" - geschwind = fast.

On folio 26 appears "Largo".


Last page: Perhaps the MS was called 40935 before the war.
Apparently it once belonged to Robert Weigelt in Breslau, possibly the painter 
and photographer (1815-1879).

This seems to be an interesting manuscript.

Does anybody know anything about it?

Could somebody who can read new German organ tablature fluently check the 
pieces I have mentioned above against possible lute concordances?

Best wishes,

Rainer



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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html


[LUTE] Re: Pacoloni

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Jean-Marie,

I am not aware of any PhD on the Pacoloni trios and have never seen the studi 
mentioned in the introduction to the facsimile "Intavolatura manoscritta per 
Liuto del duomo di Castelfrance Veneto", Bologna 2012: P. van Engeland, 
"Pacoloni. Pièces pour trois luths, 1564. Etude critique et transcriptions, 
Université Libre de Bruxelles", 1979, unpublished. The autho of the facsimile 
didn't see it either, but it is at least possible that it does exist, ;)

Best

Joachim

 


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Pacoloni
Datum: 2018-05-22T16:48:13+0200
Von: "Jean-Marie Poirier" 
An: "'Lute List'" 

Dear collective wisdom,

Would anyone on this list know of a dissertation or Ph. D. about the works of 
Giovanni Pacoloni, particularly
his pieces for 3 lutes ?

Thank you in advance for any help you can give me !

All the best,

Jean-Marie Poirier



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[LUTE] Re: Ugga, Agga

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Rainer,

these demihemiwatchamacallits were indeed used for printing music in 
Beethoven's time, but it is also true that they have almost completely fallen 
out of use. Modern editions of late eighteenth/early nineteenth century piano 
music augment the old values ...

Best

Joachim

P.S.: I have seen some Mozart in very black, but I do not recall which KV that 
was ...



Lektorat & Korrektorat
Dr. Joachim Lüdtke
Blumenstraße 20
D-90762 Fürth
Tel.: 0911 / 976 45 20
Mail: jo.lued...@t-online.de
www.lektorat-luedtke.de
 
Mitglied im Verband der freien Lektorinnen und Lektoren
www.vfll.de
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-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Ugga, Agga
Datum: 2018-05-14T15:49:02+0200
Von: "Rainer" <rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
An: "Lute net" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>

As we all know a demisemihemidemisemiquaver is called 
Zweihundertsechsundfünfzigstel in German or two hundred fifty-sixth note in 
American English.

The German WIKI entry says such note values are not used.

I am sure this is nonsense. I seem to remember to have seen 
demisemihemidemisemiquavers somewhere - in a Beethoven piano sonata?

Does anybody remember?

Rainer



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[LUTE] Re: Freundlich hoflich dhin darbei

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Rainer,

I had a look a the microfilm of the source (Leipzig II.6.15) yesterday. The 
initial s (it's the round, not the long form) is a bit, well, one of its own, 
but still it is an s. I read the word as "schein" = a dialect form of schoen.

Best

Joachim


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Freundlich hoflich dhin darbei
Datum: 2018-03-16T12:59:47+0100
Von: "Rainer" 
An: "Lute net" 

In his very interesting article about "Est ce mars" Eberhard Nehlsen reads

"Freundlich, höflich, schön daneben".

He may have seen the original or drawn the title form an article by Tappert 
published in 1892 [sic!].

Rainer

On 12.03.2018 16:48, jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote:
> Well, also possible: Friendly, courtly, and yours...
> 
> Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone.
>    Originalnachricht
> Von: jo.lued...@t-online.de
> Gesendet: Montag, 12. März 2018 16:43
> An: Rainer; Lute net
> Antwort an: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Freundlich hoflich dhin darbei
> 
> 
> Ich dhin mit gantzer Freud der lieb Nur als Idee. Diese Texte sind oft so 
> voller verklausulierter Partikel...
> 
> Gesendet von meinem BlackBerry 10-Smartphone.
>    Originalnachricht
> Von: Rainer
> Gesendet: Montag, 12. März 2018 16:39
> An: Lute net
> Antwort an: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
> Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Freundlich hoflich dhin darbei
> 
> 
> On 12.03.2018 16:26, jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote:
>> ‎Dear Rainer, dear list,
>>
>> Well, it is not necesarily nonsense, but neithertheless puzzling as long as 
>> you don't know how the text may continue.
> 
> Und was soll dhin sein? "Dein" in Orthografie aus dem 14 Jahrhundert?
> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 




[LUTE] Re: German song questions

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Oh yes, they have moved out of that beautiful house in the Silberbachstrasse, 
haven't they ...

And I have never yet been able to profit from their online database either.

Joachim


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German song  questions
Datum: 2018-02-08T11:20:57+0100
Von: "Ralf Mattes" <r...@mh-freiburg.de>
An: "Joachim Lüdtke" <jo.lued...@t-online.de>

 
Am Donnerstag, 08. Februar 2018 10:29 CET, Joachim Lüdtke 
<jo.lued...@t-online.de> schrieb: 
 
> Dear Robert, dear Rainer,
> 
> original sources can (sometimes) be found by looking into Norbert Böker-Heil 
> et al. (eds.); "Das Tenorlied". 3 Vols Kassel etc. 1979 - 1986.

That would be the first place to look, haven't access to it right now, 
unfortunately.
 
> This is a source catalogue of songbooks both manuscript and printed from 1450 
> to 1580. Vol. 3 contains the indexes. "Vnser magt kan ausz der massen"  = 
> Songbook printed by Egenolff in Frankfurt, [1535], nr. 15 (anon.).

Do you happen to know in which Egenolff print this is suppoed to be? I'm 
looking at the Gassenhawerlin and 
Reuterliedlin from 1535 and can' t find it in neither.

> If you have access to "Denkmäler der Tonkunst in Oesterreich", you may find 
> texts to the intavolations in the critical commentary to Koczirz's edition of 
> Newsidler, Judenkunig & Co. in Vol. 37  (I don't have this at hand, so: just 
> an idea).
> 
> The Deutsche Volksliederarchiv in Freiburg may also be helpful ...

Hmm, I had mixed results last time I visited (~20 years ago). Also the changed 
their focus (now called 
"Zentrum für Populäre Kultur und Musik") and, unfortunately, their beatiful 
location. BTW, their online
database (http://www.liederlexikon.de/) doesn't list the song.

 Cheers, RalfD

 
 
 





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[LUTE] Re: German song questions

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Ralf, dear all

sorry – I was unprecise. [1535]15 = [Frankfurt a.M.], [C. Egenolff]. This is 
neither "Gassenhawerlin" nor "Reutterliedlein" or any other of the Egenolff 
prints from 1535 which we can call by their titles, but a fragmentary one, 
lacking the Tenor partbook which would have contained a title page and 
colophon. The library is D-Mbs, Mus.pr. 46#Beibd.2, digitized to be seen under 
http://stimmbuecher.digitale-sammlungen.de/view?id=bsb00086384

It is nr. 15 and you will see that in the lyrics there are neither Crabaten, 
nor mercenaries from Hrvatska, nor crabs.

Best

Joachim
 


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: Re: [LUTE] Re: German song questions
Datum: 2018-02-08T11:20:07+0100
Von: "Ralf Mattes" <r...@mh-freiburg.de>
An: "Joachim Lüdtke" <jo.lued...@t-online.de>


Am Donnerstag, 08. Februar 2018 10:29 CET, Joachim Lüdtke 
<jo.lued...@t-online.de> schrieb:

> Dear Robert, dear Rainer,
>
> original sources can (sometimes) be found by looking into Norbert Böker-Heil 
> et al. (eds.); "Das Tenorlied". 3 Vols Kassel etc. 1979 - 1986.

That would be the first place to look, haven't access to it right now, 
unfortunately.

> This is a source catalogue of songbooks both manuscript and printed from 1450 
> to 1580. Vol. 3 contains the indexes. "Vnser magt kan ausz der massen"  = 
> Songbook printed by Egenolff in Frankfurt, [1535], nr. 15 (anon.).

Do you happen to know in which Egenolff print this is suppoed to be? I'm 
looking at the Gassenhawerlin and
Reuterliedlin from 1535 and can' t find it in neither.

> If you have access to "Denkmäler der Tonkunst in Oesterreich", you may find 
> texts to the intavolations in the critical commentary to Koczirz's edition of 
> Newsidler, Judenkunig & Co. in Vol. 37  (I don't have this at hand, so: just 
> an idea).
>
> The Deutsche Volksliederarchiv in Freiburg may also be helpful ...

Hmm, I had mixed results last time I visited (~20 years ago). Also the changed 
their focus (now called
"Zentrum für Populäre Kultur und Musik") and, unfortunately, their beatiful 
location. BTW, their online
database (http://www.liederlexikon.de/) doesn't list the song.

 Cheers, RalfD










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http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html

[LUTE] Re: German song questions

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Robert, dear Rainer,

original sources can (sometimes) be found by looking into Norbert Böker-Heil et 
al. (eds.); "Das Tenorlied". 3 Vols Kassel etc. 1979 - 1986.

This is a source catalogue of songbooks both manuscript and printed from 1450 
to 1580. Vol. 3 contains the indexes. "Vnser magt kan ausz der massen"  = 
Songbook printed by Egenolff in Frankfurt, [1535], nr. 15 (anon.).

If you have access to "Denkmäler der Tonkunst in Oesterreich", you may find 
texts to the intavolations in the critical commentary to Koczirz's edition of 
Newsidler, Judenkunig & Co. in Vol. 37  (I don't have this at hand, so: just an 
idea).

The Deutsche Volksliederarchiv in Freiburg may also be helpful ...

Best

Joachim



-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German song questions
Datum: 2018-02-08T09:57:21+0100
Von: "Rainer" 
An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" 

Dear Robert,

I understand that "Unser Magdt kan aussdermassen" is the same tune as "Unsere 
Köchin...".

According to Brown it should be discussed in Böhme: "Altdeutsches Liederbuch : 
Volkslieder der Deutschen nach Wort und Weise aus dem 12. bis zum 17. 
Jahrhundert"

Best wishes,

Rainer aus dem Spring

PS

If you can't access this book I might go to the University library in 
Duesseldorf - they have two copies.


On 08.02.2018 00:03, Robert Barto wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Some of the easiest pieces in early German tab books are:
> 
> Hast du mich genommen (Madonna Katerina) and  Unsere Koechin kann aus
> der massen kochen
> 
> Does anyone have the texts or know more about  these songs? (I have the
> first two volumes of Forster and have
> 
> looked in a few other collections on IMSLP , but haven't found them.)
> 
> Thanks, Robert
> 
> Virenfrei. [1]www.avast.com
> 
> --
> 
> References
> 
> Visible links
> 1. 
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
> 
> Hidden links:
> 3. 
> https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email_source=link_campaign=sig-email_content=emailclient
> 4. 
> file://localhost/net/ifs-users/lute-arc/L27726-6265TMP.html#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 




[LUTE] Re: Unknown manuscript

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear G

Naples, Biblioteca del Conservatorio S. Pitro a Majella MS 7664; see Victor 
Coelhos Catalogue (including incipits).

Best

Joachim
 


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Unknown manuscript
Datum: 2018-01-31T11:39:02+0100
Von: "G. C." 
An: "Lutelist" 

   Dear All,
   I recently stumbled onto this @ the Swiss Radio.
   [1]https://www.rsi.ch/rete-due/programmi/cultura/quilisma/
   Amor-di-liuto-9518098.html
   (If you run the page url through google translate, the translation is
   quite acceptable.)
   The half hour podcast is about an obscure lute manuscript by a
   Francesco Quartiron, containing over 100 pieces said to have been
   discovered 30 years ago by Dinko Fabris in the Library of the
   Conservatory of Naples. No mention whatsoever of it in the archives.
   Has anyone here seen it /heard about it / played from it?
   This ms. was completely unknown to me. 5 or 6 Examples from the CD by
   Maurizio Piantelli (2009) are given in the podcast. The whole CD is on
   Spotify and seems to contain some attractive pieces.
   [2]https://open.spotify.com/album/77l6qr2o7sd1kK1BpWobNH
   Said to be a student's collection, many of the pieces are elementary
   dances in the romanesca / passomezzo style judging from the CD.
   Tanti saluti
   G

   --

References

   1. 
https://www.rsi.ch/rete-due/programmi/cultura/quilisma/Amor-di-liuto-9518098.html
   2. https://open.spotify.com/album/77l6qr2o7sd1kK1BpWobNH


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[LUTE] Re: tone colour echo

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Nor do I, but Brown records two later editions. It may be interesting (at least 
for someone who is fascinated by the music and the history of its editions) to 
compare the texts. Years ago I copied the piece from the CNRS edition, which 
should be based on the earliest known publication, that is on 1554[6]. If I 
wasn't out of my mind while copying the music, there are several measures where 
you would have to pick the final note in cadences from the octave string of the 
third course. Later I saw the piece in one of the later prints, and all this 
fine play with octave strings and resulting sonorities, which to me seemed so 
perfectly matched the way De Rippe intavolated the echos of the chanson, was 
edited out ... I have however never investigated much time into this, and it 
may even be that the piece is full of errors in 1554[6] or the copy the CNRS 
editors where working from, and that all ideas of mine about fine play, octave 
strings and sonorities are nonsense ...

Best

Joachim


Lektorat & Korrektorat
Dr. Joachim Lüdtke
Blumenstraße 20
D-90762 Fürth
Tel.: 0911 / 976 45 20
Mail: jo.lued...@t-online.de
 
Mitglied im Verband der freien Lektorinnen und Lektoren
www.vfll.de
www.lektoren.de/profil/joachim-luedtke
 


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: tone colour echo
Datum: 2018-01-30T14:00:09+0100
Von: "Rainer" <rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
An: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>

Looks like I don't have that book (Brown 1554[6]) - grrrr

Rainer

On 30.01.2018 11:58, Joachim Lüdtke wrote:
> Dear Rainer,
> 
> De Rippe's intavolation of Gentian's "Dieu qui conduit" ("L'Eccho").
> 
> Best
> 
> Joachim
> 
> 
> -Original-Nachricht-
> Betreff: [LUTE] tone colour echo
> Datum: 2018-01-30T11:45:30+0100
> Von: "Rainer" <rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
> An: "Lute net" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
> 
> Dear lute netters,
> 
> I may have posted this may years ago already - I don't remember.
> 
> In the duet treble "Sellinger's Round" (Marsh, p. 182 and Dd.3.18, f. 5r) 
> there is a tone colour echo in bars 57 and 58 - the same notes on different 
> courses.
> 
> I wonder if anybody knows of any other such echo in Renaissance lute music.
> 
> By the way, it is tempting to play a similar echo on bars 53 and 54.
> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 
> 
> 
> 




[LUTE] Re: tone colour echo

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Rainer,

De Rippe's intavolation of Gentian's "Dieu qui conduit" ("L'Eccho").

Best

Joachim


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] tone colour echo
Datum: 2018-01-30T11:45:30+0100
Von: "Rainer" 
An: "Lute net" 

Dear lute netters,

I may have posted this may years ago already - I don't remember.

In the duet treble "Sellinger's Round" (Marsh, p. 182 and Dd.3.18, f. 5r) there 
is a tone colour echo in bars 57 and 58 - the same notes on different courses.

I wonder if anybody knows of any other such echo in Renaissance lute music.

By the way, it is tempting to play a similar echo on bars 53 and 54.

Rainer



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[LUTE] Re: Four and Twenty Fiddlers: The Violin at the English Court, 1540-1690

[Joachim Lüdtke]

May be difficult to sort out what is old-fashioned in any given moment when it 
is 'kept alive' by being part of a people's folklore ... Nursery Rhymes:

Sing a song of sixpence,
A pocket full of rye.
Four and twenty blackbirds,
Baked in a pie.

When the pie was opened
The birds began to sing;
Wasn't that a dainty dish,
To set before the king. 

(a.s.o.)

Best

Joachim

Lektorat & Korrektorat
Dr. Joachim Lüdtke
Blumenstraße 20
D-90762 Fürth
Tel.: 0911 / 976 45 20
Mail: jo.lued...@t-online.de
 
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-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Four and Twenty Fiddlers: The Violin at the English Court, 
1540-1690
Datum: 2018-01-28T11:32:11+0100
Von: "Rainer" <rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
An: "Lute net" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>

I forgot to mention that the old-fashioned way was still used by Collins, 
Dickens and even by Conan Doyle after 1880.
I have no idea if that was old fashioned at their time, though.

Rainer

On 28.01.2018 11:11, Rainer wrote:
> Dear lute-netters,
> 
> some of you certainly know (have) Peter Holman's book.
> 
> I always thought that this pronunciation of numbers (as still used in German) 
> was only used in the 17th century and before and changed a long time ago.
> 
> Does anybody know when this changed (from four and twenty to twenty-four)?
> 
> Rainer
> 
> 
> 
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> 




[LUTE] Re: German Lute history (was: Stringing Question)

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Martyn, dear list,

in "The Lute in Europe 2" I was refering to the large numbers of guitars from 
the early twentieth century I have seen which seem to have been used in rough 
environments (that is I think these were actually taken "into the wilderness"), 
while I have seldomly seen guitar lutes which show the same sort of damages.

I have seen photographs, too, of guitar lutes being carried around and played 
in the outdoors, but generally these are largely outnumbered by guitars ...

Just my pennyworth

Joachim


Lektorat & Korrektorat
Dr. Joachim Lüdtke
Blumenstraße 20
D-90762 Fürth
Tel.: 0911 / 976 45 20
Mail: jo.lued...@t-online.de
 
Mitglied im Verband der freien Lektorinnen und Lektoren
www.vfll.de
www.lektoren.de/profil/joachim-luedtke
 


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] Re: German Lute history (was: Stringing Question)
Datum: 2017-12-08T17:34:59+0100
Von: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>
An: "Lutelist Net" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>


   To: Tristan von Neumann <tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
   Sent: Friday, 8 December 2017, 15:35
   Subject: Re: [LUTE] German Lute history (was: Stringing Question)
   Look at the pictures I recently posted which shows these lute shaped
   guitars being taken into 'the wilderness'. There are others.
   A440 is perfectly satisfactory for an e tuned (ie guitar tuned)
   instrument of normal (ie guitar) string length. Gut was, of course,
   employed on guitars until the advent of nylon.
   Hauser did make lutes in the early/mid 20thC but whilst being double
   strung they still exhibit many characteristics of the earlier
   lute-guitar. See for example
   [1]http://guitars.com/inventory/ac1809-1913-hermann-hauser-lute
   Dolmetsch and others were making instruments more closely based on
   historical models at around this time.
   MH
 __

   From: Tristan von Neumann <tristanvonneum...@gmx.de>
   To: lutelist Net <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
   Sent: Friday, 8 December 2017, 14:34
   Subject: [LUTE] German Lute history (was: Stringing Question)
   The book "The Lute in Europe 2" states that though the German Lute was
   indeed played by Early Hippies (aka Wandervogel), it wasn't the
   instrument taken into the wilderness. For that purpose, there was the
   Wandervogel-Guitar (I think this is the "Klampfe" that inspired the
   common word for cheap campfire guitars).
   Due to the rib joints coming apart, I can say for sure that the ribs
   are
   very thin like it would be expected in a real lute.
   The soundboard is surely somewhat sturdier.
   The only difference is the pins, the frets, and the peg action.
   Strung with 0.45 Nylon on first course in G 415hz, it sounds much more
   like my Ren. Lute, not a guitar. There's still one rib joint to glue
   though before I dare to install the other strings.
   I can take pictures if you are interested. I have also a later German
   Lute, that is in better shape. It has a windowed peg box and no
   flowerhead, probably a later model. Of this I know that it was played
   in
   the 30s by the grandma of the guy from whom I bought it.
   Personally, I doubt that the Lute shape was intended as an optical
   thing
   for nostalgic purposes. The sound is different, and with gut strings
   maybe even more. I have not heard any gut strung German Lute though.
   I guess 430Hz would be a realistic setting?
   According to Schlegel/Ltke, there seem to be even "real lutes" around
   in the Early 20th century, built with traditional pegboxes and double
   courses, by Hermann Hauser.
   To get on or off this list see list information at
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References

   1. http://guitars.com/inventory/ac1809-1913-hermann-hauser-lute
   2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html



[LUTE] Re: German keyboard tablature

[Joachim Lüdtke]

I should be able to make sense of it ...

Best

Joachim



Lektorat & Korrektorat
Dr. Joachim Lüdtke
Blumenstraße 20
D-90762 Fürth
Tel. 0911 / 976 45 20


-Original-Nachricht-
Betreff: [LUTE] German keyboard tablature
Datum: 2017-05-26T14:10:17+0200
Von: "Rainer" <rads.bera_g...@t-online.de>
An: "Lute net" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>

Dear lute netters,

I would like to check a concordance which is in (shudder) German keyboard 
tablature.

Can anybody read it?

Rainer

PS

I have everything as digital facsimile



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[LUTE] Re: Hainhofer lute songs

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Walter,

Es ist auf Erd kein schwerer Leiden and Lass ab, es ist umsonst are not 
from the Hainhofer-Ms.
I could send you copies from my copies of the pages containing the other two 
pieces.
There is no modern edition of the book(s) - only single pieces in scattered 
places - nor is there a facsimile edition yet [may be in two or three years 
]

All best wishes,

Joachim

Walter Durka [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
dear all,

I am looking for the lute part of three songs from Hainhofers Lautenbuch:

Es ist auf Erd kein schwerer Leiden, Band 1, Nr?
Di Fisch im Wasser wonen, Band 2, Nr 9 (= Deutscher Tanz ?)
Lass ab, es ist umsonst, Band 2, Nr 35
Was wöllen wir auf den Abend thun, Band?, Nr? (Also in the Thysius and 
Fabricius Lautenbuch)

Where can I find them? Is there a modern edition or faksimile of this 
book available?
Also other lute settings of these songs would be welcome.

thanks for any help
Walter

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[LUTE] Re: limits of technology

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Wayne,

geared tuners: no problem - but they would not have been build buy a luthier 
but by a craftsman specialising in scientific (astronomic, e.g.) instruments 
and/or automats for the collections of the rich. But the strings  I think 
you're right. A set of 0.13 Phosphor Bronce might have been impossible.

Several types of glue strong enough for non-monoxyle instruments were available 
in the 12th century (Theophilus Presbyter alias Ruogerus Benedictinus described 
how to make them and praised especially the Kasein type).

Best wishes,

Joachim

Wayne Cripps [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:


So - I am wondering whether a luthier in 1580 could have
made a D-18 Martin replica or a Hauser classical guitar.
It strikes me that they could have, if they wanted to.
They had hide glue, and they could saw thin flat boards
for the soundboard, so why not for the back.  I think
they could not have made the geared tuners, and I
think they could not have made steel strings that would
withstand the tension of strings on a modern bluegrass 
guitar.  And they could have worked out the more
contemporary patterns of bracing.  Maybe some
of the woods were not available then.  But all in all I 
think they could have done it.

And while we are at it, could medieval craftsmen made glued
up instruments?  When was good glue invented?

This is all working up to an response when someone
says that lutes and renaissance guitars are primative.

   Wayne




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[LUTE] Re: The German lute movement and the guitar-lute

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Ed,

I suspect there are Japanese people adhering to the system of classifying 
according to material of construction as there are such who have adopted the 
Sachs-system.

I even remember a Japanese co-student of mine once reading us a paper about the 
adoption of the western harmonic system (following Riemann) to Gagaku music by 
Japanese musicologists ...

Best wishes, Joachim

Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:

On Oct 15, 2005, at 6:43 AM, Ik1hdGhpYXMgUvZzZWwi wrote:

 Perhaps, Japanese musicologists will share the European traditional  
 way
 of definining families of musical instruments. Perhaps they won't.  
 Does
 that mean it's wrong in any kind of way? Would you suggest other ways
 than by use or construction?

I think I read somewhere that the old Japanese system of  
classification was by material. I only know Japanese who play western  
instruments so I couldn't tell you for sure without some  
investigation. It would take far too much effort for me to reach all  
the way over and click on my browser and Google it. :-)
cheers,

Ed Durbrow
Saitama, Japan
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/



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[LUTE] Re: The German lute movement and the guitar-lute

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Matthias,

another system of classifying musical instruments is by material (used in 
India, China a.s.o). I think, there's at least as much logic in this system as 
in the western european.

I do not have difficulties in applying the Sachs system to any instrument as a 
material thing but doing this would miss one point if dealing with the 
lute/lute-guitar/guitar-lute/guitar-thing: people classified the lute 
instruments either as lutes, as hybrids (Bastard-instrument = Sachs's word 
for it) or as guitars, while guitars sometimes were called lutes, especially if 
used for the singer's accompaniment.

Best wishes,

Joachim

Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
 I agree with almost everything you write except that I would like to call 
 instruments first and foremost by their proper names (especially if it comes 
 to non western european instruments), that I would not like to call guitars 
 lutes

nor should I. Lute instruments would be the traditional name.

 [and therefore have to admit that I am not able to decide upon where the 
 dividing line runs between the different six-string plucked things used side 
 by side in the nineteenth and early twentieth century]

nomen proprium definitur per genus proximum + accidentia specifica:
chordophones - plucked chordophones - plucked chordophones with necks
- plucked chordophones with necks and bowl-like bodies.

 and that I think that the Sachs system does not apply universally except 
 when one states that western (european) views have needs to be adopted all 
 over the world.

Perhaps, Japanese musicologists will share the European traditional way
of definining families of musical instruments. Perhaps they won't. Does
that mean it's wrong in any kind of way? Would you suggest other ways
than by use or construction?

All the best,

Mathias
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[LUTE] Re: The German lute movement and the guitar-lute

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Mathias,

Schalenhalslaute and Kastenhalslaute - that's the terminology of Curt Sachs 
and as his approach was purely based on the morphology of instruments (not on 
their use, the way one produces sounds on them [e.g. by plucking strings or 
bowing them] or their position in the culture to which they belong) he 
consequently calls any instrument with strings attached to a body and something 
like a neck a lute. Guitars are Kastenhalslauten and the Kemence is a 
Schalenhalslaute ...


Best wishes,

Joachim

Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
Joachim Lüdtke [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
 Within the field of instruments in question I tend to think of instruments 
 with a lute-back as lutes and of instruments with a back made of sides 
 (unsure about the terminology, in German they are called Zargen) and a 
 seperate back as guitars,

Indeed, it's schalenhals (chordophones with shells, or bowls, and necks)
vs. kastenhals (chordophones with boxes and necks), traditionally.
Wandervogel lutes are proper lutes, whatever their barrings or
stringings.

Regards,

Mathias
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[LUTE] Re: The German lute movement and the guitar-lute

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Mathias,

I agree with almost everything you write except that I would like to call 
instruments first and foremost by their proper names (especially if it comes to 
non western european instruments), that I would not like to call guitars lutes 
[and therefore have to admit that I am not able to decide upon where the 
dividing line runs between the different six-string plucked things used side by 
side in the nineteenth and early twentieth century] and that I think that the 
Sachs system does not apply universally except when one states that western 
(european) views have needs to be adopted all over the world.

Best wishes,

Joachim

Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
 Schalenhalslaute and Kastenhalslaute - that's the terminology of Curt 
 Sachs

Sachs's terminology was still kept e. g. by Dieter Klöckner, art.
zupfinstrumentenbau (construction of plucked instruments) / A Einführung
(introduction), B Gitarren- und Lautenbau (construction of lutes and
guitars) in MGG 14, pp. 1453-78. It was written in the late sixties, I
think.

 and as his approach was purely based on the morphology of instruments

Firstly, Klöckner distinguishes plucked from bowed string instruments in
general. That should be called a distinction according to _use_. When he
comes to lutes, the main distinction of lutes is based on the
_construction_ of the neck, i. e. whether A) a rod or stick (Spiesz)
runs through the body of the lute (Spieszlaute, stick-lute?), or B) the
neck is fixed to the body like a neck (Halslaute, neck-lute). Neck-lutes
can furthermore be distinguished according to the construction of their
respective bodies, i .e. whether the body is of the shape of a box
(Kasten, Kastenhalslaute) or of a shell or bowl (Schale,
Schalenhalslaute).

Would you say this kind of a mixed distinction, based on use as well as
on constructio, is obsolete or inappropiate?

 (not on their use, the way one produces sounds on them [e.g. by plucking 
 strings or bowing them]

well, any distinction like chordophones--plucked instruments speaks for
itself, doesn't it.

 or their position in the culture to which they belong) he consequently calls 
 any instrument with strings attached to a body and something like a neck a 
 lute. Guitars are Kastenhalslauten and the Kemence is a 
 Schalenhalslaute ...

well, yes, what's wrong with that? Lutes are a numerous family, aren't
they. I for one should say that gitterns, guitars, citole, vihuelas,
chitarroni, theorboes, archlutes, renaissance lutes from 6c to 10c,
baroque lutes, are lutes just as well as idan (hi Danyel), tar, saz,
baglama, pipa and so on, are lutes. Or would you prefer to call them
plucked neck-chordophones?

Best,


Mathias
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[LUTE] Re: SV: The German lute movement and the guitar-lute

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Chris,

thank you for pointing to this question. I usually use designations like lute 
guitar or guitar lute to avoid the dilemma of not being able to answer the 
question of where there's a dividing line, but I am perfectly aware that the 
six-string instruments with a lute body were thought of as simply lutes.
Within the field of instruments in question I tend to think of instruments with 
a lute-back as lutes and of instruments with a back made of sides (unsure about 
the terminology, in German they are called Zargen) and a seperate back as 
guitars, even if there are 24 strings organised in courses ... but that is 
naive morphology ...

All best wishes,

Joachim

[EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
Joachim,


 I find this to be very interesting, but it calls
to mind a question: what exactly _is_ the difference
between a lute and a guitar made in the shape of a
lute?   I.E. is a lute defined by its shape, double
strings, interior construction, tuning, or something
else.?  We have no problem accepting a single-strung
theorbo or the guitar-like tuning of the gallichon as
members of the lute family.  Where's the dividing
line?


Chris

--- Joachim Lüdtke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Dear Martyn,
 
 it may be indeed that there is a direct link between
 the Mandora and the early six-string lute guitar but
 to me it seems difficult to find hard evidence. Lute
 instruments were made into lute guitars quite some
 time before 1828 if we may believe Jacob August Otto
 who testifies to this in a book published in 1828
 (he writes about newly built lute guitars, too).
 There are some extant lutes made into six string
 instruments but these seem all to be of a later date
 (one or two possible exceptions - but these show
 suspicous features ...). However, I think there was
 a time (roughly around 1800) when lutes and guitars
 began to -- say -- exchange ideas [;)] ...
 
 Joachim
 
 Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 schrieb:
  
 I presume you're both aware of Molitor's report in
 the early 1800s that he met a Mandora player
 (precursor of the German 'lute guitar'?) who told
 him he had changed to single strings like the
 contemporary guitar since it was easier
  
 Martyh Hodgson
 
 Kenneth Sparr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Dear Joachim,
 
 I'm sure there a lot of things concerning the
 history of the lute and the
 guitar in the early 20th century that are still
 uncovered. Your article
 indeed was a substantial contribution to our
 knowledge and I thank you for
 that. As Scholander made such a great success in
 Germany I find difficult to
 believe that he didn't exercise a considerable
 influence even if he didn't
 had contact with the Scherrer-circle (or the other
 way round?).
 
 Concerning the single-string lute question the
 Swedish lute (or Sittra as it
 was also called) already got its single strings as
 early as the end of the
 18th century, but it developed from the cittern.
 Certainly there is more
 research needed also concerning the development of
 the Swedish lute.
 
 I searched Bacher's Lautenfibel for many years and
 finally found it via
 ZVAB, the excellent German search engine for
 antiquarian books. It may have
 some Internet when we describe the renaissance of
 lute playing from
 tablature.
 
 Best wishes
 
 Kenneth Sparr
 Stromstigen 25
 S-149 51 Nynashamn
 SWEDEN
 
 Telephone: +46-852015561
 www.tabulatura.com
 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 -Ursprungligt meddelande-
 Från: Joachim Lüdtke
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 Skickat: den 9 oktober 2005 20:07
 Till: Kenneth Sparr; lute-list (Renaissance)
 Ämne: Re: [LUTE] The German lute movement and the
 guitar-lute
 
 Dear Kenneth,
 
 thank you for your mail - I didn't know that my
 article would be of interest
 to anyone outside Germany although I know that the
 guitar lute and its
 relatives were not confined to the German spoken
 countries.
 
 I have not mentioned Scholander because I am unsure
 about the extent to
 which he influenced the singers of lute songs and
 the lute players in the
 Germany of his time and because he seems to have
 had no contact to the
 Scherrer-circle. In changing the Swedish lute into
 a single string
 instrument he may be seen as following a process
 which started in the early
 nineteenth century.
 
 Where did you find Bacher`s Fibel? Thank you for
 drawing our attention to
 it. I will try to find a copy.
 
 
 
 
 To get on or off this list see list information at

http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 
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 Tlf.: ++49 / +9498 / 905 188
 Mobil: 0172 / 275 49 48
 Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 
 
 
 


   
   
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[LUTE] Re: SV: The German lute movement and the guitar-lute

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Kenneth,

I do look from time to time into the ZVAB but weren't yet lucky in searching 
for items like this ...

My being unsure about Scholander's influence on the lute song movement in 
Germany has to do with seeing the latter as having been strongly linked with 
the musical youth movement (Wandervogel and others) where Scholander seems 
not to have been as popular as in the concert room ... But I may be wrong - 
there is much about this time which sometimes to me seems more difficult to 
understand than life in an early medieval town!

Joachim

Kenneth Sparr [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
Dear Joachim,

I'm sure there a lot of things concerning the history of the lute and the
guitar in the early 20th century that are still uncovered. Your article
indeed was a substantial contribution to our knowledge and I thank you for
that. As Scholander made such a great success in Germany I find difficult to
believe that he didn't exercise a considerable influence even if he didn't
had contact with the Scherrer-circle (or the other way round?).

Concerning the single-string lute question the Swedish lute (or Sittra as it
was also called) already got its single strings as early as the end of the
18th century, but it developed from the cittern. Certainly there is more
research needed also concerning the development of the Swedish lute.

I searched Bacher's Lautenfibel for many years and finally found it via
ZVAB, the excellent German search engine for antiquarian books. It may have
some Internet when we describe the renaissance of lute playing from
tablature.

Best wishes

Kenneth Sparr
Stromstigen 25
S-149 51 Nynashamn
SWEDEN

Telephone: +46-852015561
www.tabulatura.com
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Joachim Lüdtke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Skickat: den 9 oktober 2005 20:07
Till: Kenneth Sparr; lute-list (Renaissance)
Ämne: Re: [LUTE] The German lute movement and the guitar-lute

Dear Kenneth,

thank you for your mail - I didn't know that my article would be of interest
to anyone outside Germany although I know that the guitar lute and its
relatives were not confined to the German spoken countries.

I have not mentioned Scholander because I am unsure about the extent to
which he influenced the singers of lute songs and the lute players in the
Germany of his time and because he seems to have had no contact to the
Scherrer-circle. In changing the Swedish lute into a single string
instrument he may be seen as following a process which started in the early
nineteenth century.

Where did you find Bacher`s Fibel? Thank you for drawing our attention to
it. I will try to find a copy.




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[LUTE] Re: SV: The German lute movement and the guitar-lute

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Martyn,

it may be indeed that there is a direct link between the Mandora and the early 
six-string lute guitar but to me it seems difficult to find hard evidence. Lute 
instruments were made into lute guitars quite some time before 1828 if we may 
believe Jacob August Otto who testifies to this in a book published in 1828 (he 
writes about newly built lute guitars, too). There are some extant lutes made 
into six string instruments but these seem all to be of a later date (one or 
two possible exceptions - but these show suspicous features ...). However, I 
think there was a time (roughly around 1800) when lutes and guitars began to -- 
say -- exchange ideas [;)] ...

Joachim

Martyn Hodgson [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
 
I presume you're both aware of Molitor's report in the early 1800s that he met 
a Mandora player (precursor of the German 'lute guitar'?) who told him he had 
changed to single strings like the contemporary guitar since it was 
easier
 
Martyh Hodgson

Kenneth Sparr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Dear Joachim,

I'm sure there a lot of things concerning the history of the lute and the
guitar in the early 20th century that are still uncovered. Your article
indeed was a substantial contribution to our knowledge and I thank you for
that. As Scholander made such a great success in Germany I find difficult to
believe that he didn't exercise a considerable influence even if he didn't
had contact with the Scherrer-circle (or the other way round?).

Concerning the single-string lute question the Swedish lute (or Sittra as it
was also called) already got its single strings as early as the end of the
18th century, but it developed from the cittern. Certainly there is more
research needed also concerning the development of the Swedish lute.

I searched Bacher's Lautenfibel for many years and finally found it via
ZVAB, the excellent German search engine for antiquarian books. It may have
some Internet when we describe the renaissance of lute playing from
tablature.

Best wishes

Kenneth Sparr
Stromstigen 25
S-149 51 Nynashamn
SWEDEN

Telephone: +46-852015561
www.tabulatura.com
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
-Ursprungligt meddelande-
Från: Joachim Lüdtke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Skickat: den 9 oktober 2005 20:07
Till: Kenneth Sparr; lute-list (Renaissance)
Ämne: Re: [LUTE] The German lute movement and the guitar-lute

Dear Kenneth,

thank you for your mail - I didn't know that my article would be of interest
to anyone outside Germany although I know that the guitar lute and its
relatives were not confined to the German spoken countries.

I have not mentioned Scholander because I am unsure about the extent to
which he influenced the singers of lute songs and the lute players in the
Germany of his time and because he seems to have had no contact to the
Scherrer-circle. In changing the Swedish lute into a single string
instrument he may be seen as following a process which started in the early
nineteenth century.

Where did you find Bacher`s Fibel? Thank you for drawing our attention to
it. I will try to find a copy.




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[LUTE] Re: The German lute movement and the guitar-lute

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Kenneth,

thank you for your mail - I didn't know that my article would be of interest to 
anyone outside Germany although I know that the guitar lute and its relatives 
were not confined to the German spoken countries.

I have not mentioned Scholander because I am unsure about the extent to which 
he influenced the singers of lute songs and the lute players in the Germany 
of his time and because he seems to have had no contact to the Scherrer-circle. 
In changing the Swedish lute into a single string instrument he may be seen as 
following a process which started in the early nineteenth century.

Where did you find Bacher`s Fibel? Thank you for drawing our attention to it. I 
will try to find a copy.

Best wishes,

Joachim


Kenneth Sparr [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
I read with interest Joachim Luedtke's very informative article, Zwischen
Ueberbrettl und Wanderfahrt Aspekte zur Geschichte der Laute und ihrer Musik
in Deutschlanbd von 1900 bis 1926, in the latest issue of Die Laute,
Jahrbuch der Deutsche Lautengesellschaft, Nr. VI. Luedtke does not have
pretentions to have written the definitive history of this period, but there
are a few omissions that maybe should be mentioned.

Luedtke does not with a single word mention the importance of the Swedish
singer and luteplayer Sven Scholander (1860-1936) (nor his lutebuilder
Alfred Brock) in the development of the extremely popular guitar-lute
tradition in Germany and other countries in Europe. As a matter of fact Sven
Scholander had already in the 1880s modified the Swedish lute (see my
webpage at http://www.tabulatura.com/SWELUTE1.htm for a background) into a
single string lute in guitar tuning with 6 bass strings. Scholander appeared
in concerts all over northern Europe in the last decade of the 19th century
singing and playing his lute with great success. During a visit of Kaiser
Wilhelm in 1895 in Sweden he played and sang for him and already in 1896 he
gave concerts in Berlin and Hannover, in 1897 in Vienna. These concerts were
to be followed with others in Germany: in 1904 and 1905 in Berlin and after
the war he made several concert tours in Germany which were extremely
successful.

In 1910-1912 Breikopf  Härtel published his Scholander-Programme / Hundert
Lieder / für eine Sing-stimme / mit Begleitung von / Laute (Guitarre) oder
Klavier in 10 volumes.

In my opinion Scholander's importance in the lute movement in Germany should
not be underestimated.

Luedtke could also have mentioned Josef Bacher's Lehrwerk fûr die
doppelchörige Laute. 1. Band: Lautenfibel. Bärenreiter 1236. Kassel, which
probably was published in 1938 or before that. My copy of this little volume
(which does not seem to have been followed by other volumes) comes from the
Handbibliothek des Hermann Moeck Verlages and has a manuscript signature and
the date 1938, which means that it was published before Giesbert's more
important Schule fuer die Barocklaute which was published in 1939/1940.
Bacher's work was based on historical methods and he is using the French
lute tablature system. 

Joachim Luedtke's article hopefully will inspire more research into this
interesting period which unfortunately also meant that many very old lutes
were changed and partly destroyed to fit this new movement.

Best wishes

Kenneth Sparr
Stromstigen 25
S-149 51 Nynashamn
SWEDEN

Telephone: +46-852015561
www.tabulatura.com
e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]




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[LUTE] Re: Johann Daniel Mylius

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Daniel and all,

the copy of Mylius, Thesaurus Gratiarum which Pohlmann locates in Berlin is in 
the Biblioteka Jagielloska, Krak=F3w. The shelf mark is: Mus.ant.pract. G 140 
(2).

Joachim Ludtke

Daniel F Heiman [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
Thomas:

Pohlmann indicates that a copy is in the Deutsche Staatsbibliothek,
Berlin.  Is that an error?

Daniel Heiman

On Sat, 10 Sep 2005 23:27:17 +0200 Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED]
writes:
 Hi,
 
 the only copy of Thesaurus Gratiarum I know of lies in Gdansk 
 (Danzig) and he 
 could get a copy from there. I have a copy but it's made from a film 
 and hard 
 to read (two pages of print for every single page of the original).
 
 Best wishes
 Thomas
 
 Am Samstag, 10. September 2005 22:15 schrieb Wayne Cripps:
  Hi -
 
  Chris Henriksen, the lute strings guy (Boston Catlines) asked
  me if I knew where he could get a film or hard copy of Thesaurus 
 Gratiarum
  (Frankfurt, 1622) by Johann Daniel Mylius, 1622.  If you know him 
 you could
  contact him directly, otherwise reply to me and I will see that he 
 gets
  your
  information.
 
  Wayne
 
 
 
  To get on or off this list see list information at
  http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
 
 -- 
 Thomas Schall
 Niederhofheimer Weg 3
 D-65843 Sulzbach
 06196/74519
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 ab 15.7. neue Adresse:
 Wiesentalstrasse 41
 CH-8355 Aadorf
 ++41 (0) 52 365 00 04
 
 http://www.lautenist.de
 http://www.lautenist.de/bduo/
 http://www.lautenist.de/gitarre/
 http://www.tslaute.de/weiss/
 
 
 
 





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Dr. Joachim Luedtke
Fruhlingsstra=DFe 9a
D - 93164 Laaber
Tlf.: ++49 / +9498 / 905 188
Mobil: 0172 / 275 49 48
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]


--

Montreal manuscript

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Thanks to anyone who responded to my query! I have now received a message from 
the Bibliothèque du Conservatoire in Montreal and: yes, there's a shelf number 
for that lute book now: MSS-1.


Joachim

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Frühlingsstraße 9a
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Tlf.: ++49 / +9498 / 905 188
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Re: Hercules, Catholic mass, and vihuelas.

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Herbert,

the name/title of Josquin's mass composition is Hercules dux Ferarriae, composed for 
duke Ercole I. and based on a short melody constructed as to mirror the sound of the 
latin title in the solmisation syllables of its notes (at least if I remember well - 
maybe there's a Josquin scholar on the list to correct me ).

Yours sincerely,

Joachim Luedtke


Herbert Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:

On pg 104 of Damiani's lute method book is a piece headed


M de Fuenllana. Duo de la missa de Hercules.  Josquin.  Pleni sunt coeli.


It is a Vihuela piece.

We are accumtomed to papgan inroads into Christianity from northern
Europe, such as Dec 25 as Jesus' birth date, the Christmas tree, Santa
Claus, and the Easter bunny.

However, this is the first time I've seen Greek/Roman mythology (Hercules)
incorporated.  Any ideas why the 16th century Spanish priests were happy
celebrating Mr Hercules?








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Dr. Joachim Luedtke
Frühlingsstraße 9a
D - 93164 Laaber
Tlf.: ++49 / +9498 / 905 188
Mobil: 0172 / 275 49 48
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Lute on Open Air Festival

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear all,

Years ago when I was playing in an early music ensemble I began to double on wind 
instruments. On a visit to my parents I took a cornet with me and then went into the 
fields to practice because I didn't want do disturb my parents. Attracted a large 
crowd of cows which followed me as far as the fence allowed (I was walking while 
practicing). Think I'm still famous among the horned animals [the shepherds and 
cowherds having stopped playing their reed pipes long ago they must be starved of 
music] although I gave up the cornet shortly after to concentrate on the lute. Suppose 
when I would take my lute and play it in the open a pigeon would come and tear up the 
instrument.

What did Basho write:

Lonely lute outside.
Joe's playing a Dowland piece.
Fast: close the windows!

Cheers, Joachim Luedtke

bill [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:

On Lunedì, ago 23, 2004, at 17:16 Europe/Rome, Herbert Ward wrote:

 I stopped at a roadside rest area.
 Dozens or hundreds of wild birds were
 singing, so I went to get my lute from the car.



basho lives!

i once played my oud by a quiet fountain in bologna because i heard 
that playing near an open body of water has a nice effect on the sound.

all i did was shoo the pigeons away and attract winos.

- bill

ps - is no one going to own up to this orgy gig?






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Dr. Joachim Luedtke
Frühlingsstraße 9a
D - 93164 Laaber
Tlf.: ++49 / +9498 / 905 188
Mobil: 0172 / 275 49 48
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: really bad deals and reentrant tuning

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Alain,

that's wonderful! You saved my evening after a particular hard day.

I'm going to try to tune my lute now ...

Cheers, Joachim

Alain Veylit [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:

On Martedì, giu 8, 2004, at 07:10 Europe/Rome, Jon Murphy wrote:

  What is re-entrant tuning.

--I thought re-entrant tuning was when you stop the other guys from playing 
so you get a second chance to tune.
--In a solo setting, re-entrant tuning means to stop mid-way through a 
piece to adjust the tuning so that difficult fingerings are made easier to 
play. Jimmy Hendrix used it a lot, but because he was a sloppy player, he 
did not bother to stop playing.
--Re-entrant tuning is to be distinguished from recursive tuning: 
recursive tuning consists in successively tuning the same string to all the 
pitches needed for your instrument.
--To tune a lute: tighten the chanterelle carefully until it breaks, then 
unwind a quarter turn. Finally, tune all the other strings on the chanterelle.
--Tuning: the act by which a perfectly good instrument is made to sound 
totally off.
--Temperament: the state of mind or mood that follows an attempt to tune 
your instrument. Traditionally, among lutenists, temperaments go from 
choleric to depressed (or melancholic).
--Equal temperament: a state of persistent despondency following many 
failed attempts to tune. Sometimes results in an attempt to tune all the 
strings to the same pitch to make it easier.
--Chromatic scale: the results of applying different colors to all the 
courses on your archlute so as to give a chance to your right hand to know 
which one is which (see also under Rainbow coalition)
--High-fifth: what two lutenists give to each other after tuning to each 
other.
--Thumb under: what 2 lutenists get for failing to tune successfully to 
each other
--Re-entrant tuning is also used to describe the particular sound of a lute 
hitting the ground really hard after yet another failed attempt at tuning 
it - probably by analogy with a re-entry into the atmosphere. (see also 
under sonic boom)
--D minor tuning: as opposed to major tuning, i.e. when you only bother to 
tune all courses up from the fourth one, carefully leaving the bourdons 
untouched.
--Octave tuning: describes the attempt at replacing a broken bass string 
with fishing line
--Sonic boom: the sound made by a theorbo that was tuned just a tad too 
high, thereby separating the neck from the bowl.
--Pythagorean ratios: an act of revenge taken by mathematicians on musicians
--Tuning with gut is generally more difficult because it involves letting 
your instinct tell you exactly where 415MHz is as well as chose what gauges 
to use for each course.
--Ashcroft tuning: designates a long period of silence in a classical music 
concert hall.
--Ashcroft tuning (2): the attempt to tune your lute as if it were a 
5-string banjo in order to be able to apply for an NEH grant. (generally 
followed by a sonic boom)
--Tuned in fourths: when you only bother to tune every fourth string
--Tuned in fifths: no one is lazy enough in the lute world to do it, but 
widely in use in the violin family of instruments

If you don't get all the jokes above, you have not been playing the lute 
long enough...
Alain











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Dr. Joachim Luedtke
Frühlingsstraße 9a
D - 93164 Laaber
Tlf.: ++49 / +9498 / 905 188
Mobil: 0172 / 275 49 48
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Fw:

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Anne, Matthias, and all:

Well, I stand corrected! There are more things between heaven and earth ...=

Re: This is what I've found out....

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Hello Anne and all,

Aabrandt [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
Hello
Allthough i was told, that my query was  ..outside the area of interest =
of
the subscribers to the Lute Forum,

.. sounds like one of my fellow germans ... after all: this is (if not a proper lute 
in the sense we use the word today) an instrument which was used in the very early 
days of the 20th-century early music movement. Let 50 years go by and someone will 
find a Jordan-lute or something like that, send a query to a lute list and receive a 
similar reaction ...

 I have recieved a lot of answers to =
my
questions.
Thanks to all of you who replied to my mail, regarding the lute that I
found in the trash.
The summary of it all is:
It's from the late 1800's.

I do not think so. Rather later ... Guitarized lutes - or mandores - were to be found 
in the eigtheenth century and guitar lutes were built in the 1890's and may be 
earlier, but guitar lutes with diapasons seem to have appeared during a vogue for the 
singing of folk songs in the early twentieth century.

Made in Markneukirchen or Mittenwald. It is a Wanderlaute, Waldelaute, =
or
Guitarrlaute (luteguitar and no makers label).
It is missing a steel brace running from the upper peg head down to the
body,

.. I may be misled in this case, but I have never seen anything like this in such an 
instrument. The upper pegheads of theorboed Guitars were sometimes equipped with 
supporting bars, but lutes?

It is certainly true that the Wandervoegel and other poeple connected with the 
musical youth movement did play guitar lutes but judging from what pictorial evidence 
I have seen they rarely did -  guitars were the common instrument of choice.

 and the upper tuningmachines (3 in 1).
(I have ordered 2 sets of ebony bridge pins with abalone dot, by mail.
Theres abalone on the fretboard).
There's 11 ribs in the archshaped body. The 6 main strings are shorter =
than
on a classical guitar. The fingerboard is even between the steel frets.
Perhaps it ended here in Denmark during the german occopation in the =
1940's.
A new world has opened for me :-)
I've learned a lot, and now know what to do next, in order for it to =
work as
an instrument again.
(Before this, I was only playing the flute).
Again; thanks to all of you who answered.
Comments on this summary is wellcome.
Regards, Anne



Have a lot of fun with your instrument and: keep on plucking,

Joachim

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Dr. Joachim Luedtke
Frühlingsstraße 9a
D - 93164 Laaber
Tlf.: ++49 / +9498 / 905 188
Mobil: 0172 / 275 49 48
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Est-ce Mars? (fwd)

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Pierre Guédron (published 1613)? I'm not sure - maybe he used a preexisting tune 

Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
Who wrote the original song?






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Dr. Joachim Luedtke
Frühlingsstraße 9a
D - 93164 Laaber
Tlf.: ++49 / +9498 / 905 188
Mobil: 0172 / 275 49 48
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: Je by Dowland

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Richard,

Une jeune fillette / La Monica a.s.o. [Bach: Von Gott will ich nicht lassen 
(organ) = a spiritual song to the Jeune fillette-Melodie by the swissman Gletting 
from the sixteenth century] is to be found in so many versions that it would be 
impossible to name them all in an E-mail. The critical commentary to Frescobaldi's 
Missa sopra l'aria dell Monica lists many of them, as does John Wendland's article 
Madre non mi far Monaca: The Biography of a Renaissance Folksong (Acta Musicologica 
48, 1976, p. 185-204). Wendland thinks - if I remember well - that the italian version 
is the original, but it always seemed to me that the french Allemande has the 
birthright.

Y.S., Joachim

Richard Corran [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
I am aware of versions of variations on Une Jeune Fillette as follows:-

Schele Ms (Hamburg) attributed to Dowland but with similarities to but 
not the same as Batchelar, see below - I have to rely on other views of 
this because my photocopy has the attribution cut off and I can't work 
out folios or page numbers, 9 course, 7th - 9th course in F, E flat and C

Besard - Thesauris Harmonicus, 7th Book, Allemandes, P 131v. - 7 course, 
7th course in F

Vallet - Secretum Musarum 1, Fol F3, p  43. 9 course, 7th - 9th course 
in F, E flat and C

den Hove 1612 (Delitiae Musicae) attributed to Jaob Polak (Iacques 
Pollonis) but with an added variation by den Hove himself, Fol 55v, 7 
course, 7th in F

Lord Herbert of Cherbury and Pickering both have Batchelar's version, 
not quite identical (are they ever?) but undoubtedly the same version 
with only minor variants apart from variations 5 and 6 in Herbert which 
are absent from Pickering

I am also aware of a courante in Piccinini 1623 book and OI think a 
version for Chitarrone.  There are doubtless many others, perahps under 
the name of La Monica or even, I understand a Bach Chorale.

Does anyone know of any others?

As far as I can tell the versions above are distinct although inevitably 
there are strong similarities.

Richard Corran





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Dr. Joachim Luedtke
Frühlingsstraße 9a
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Tlf.: ++49 / +9498 / 905 188
Mobil: 0172 / 275 49 48
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: help with scarce reference books

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Gordon,

the first and third items are to be found in a library here. I could scan the asked 
for pages and send them per mail. Boetticher's handout from the first la luth et sa 
musique-conference - the second item - will be hard to find I suspect.

Your sincerely,

Joachim Luedtke



Dr. Gordon J. Callon [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb:
If anyone has one or more of the following books, one of my students 
would like the title page(s) and one page from each photocopied or 
scanned. The purpose is to locate catalogue entries for one manuscript.

The books are:

W. Boetticher, Studien zur soloistischen Lautenpraxis des 16. und 17. 
Jahrhunderts, Phil. Hab. Schr. Berlin, 1943.

Bibliographie des sources de la musique pour luth. CNRS, Paris, 1956. 
[apparently a reprint of part of the previous]

Versteigerung der Musikbibliothek des Herrn Dr. Werner Wolffheim, Band 
II, Berlin, 1929.

Thanks!

GJC





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Dr. Joachim Luedtke
Von-Ossietzky-Strasse 1
D - 37085 Goettingen
Tlf.: ++49 / +551 / 70 33 67
Mobil: 0172 / 275 49 48
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Barlines

[Joachim Lüdtke]

Dear Edward, Sean, Stewart and all,

for some of the early polyphony in organum style barring is used, if it is notated in 
non-modal/non-mensural notation (e.g. pieces in neumatic notation in the Codex 
Calixtinus which - if the dating is still valid - comes from the middle of the twelfth 
century). I have seen examples of neumatic notation of two-voice organum music in 
german sources which date from the late fifteenth/early sixteenth century, so there is 
at least a thin line leading right into the centuries when organ tablature developed 
from its beginnings and lute tablature first appeared.
However it is often quite clear in these sources that the barring does not fall on 
regular beats. Some of the earliest organ and lute tablatures also do not use regular 
barring (if any at all), but the idea of helping the player find his or her way 
through all these letters, ciphers or what you have seems to have caught on by the 
early years of the sixteenth century ... erm ... I'm just looking at copies from 
Arnold Schlick's Tabulaturen Etlicher lobgesang from 1511: no barring at all! And here 
are two pages from a late sixteenth / early seventeenth-century organ tablature: no 
barring, too ...
However: the idea of using bar lines to show phrasing  or at least to designate where 
two or more voices fall together on certain notes was known centuries before lute 
tablature.

I suspect the absence of bar lines in the vocal parts of printed lute and guitar songs 
mentioned by Sean has to do with the respective printer's equipment: there where no 
printing types for bar lines in their sets for mensural notation (Peter Short, the 
printer of Dowland's first book a.s.o. obviously had these types as did Gabriel 
Bataille who used them rather sparingly). Manuscript sources of lute songs should - at 
least I think so - include them as does the Turpyn book, but I would not be surprised 
if someone would correct me on this point.

All best wishes,

Joachim Luedtke

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Dr. Joachim Luedtke
Von-Ossietzky-Strasse 1
D - 37085 Goettingen
Tlf.: ++49 / +551 / 70 33 67
Mobil: 0172 / 275 49 48
Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]