Anatomy of the B. Lute
Dear all, I have recently updated the Baroque Lute mailing group page to include a section entitled: Anatomy of the Baroque Lute. It can be viewed at: http://bachplucked.com/baroque-lute/ Membership of the BL group can be done at: http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/baroque-lute/ Best regards, Michael Stitt http://bachplucked.com/lutenist/ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. --
Re: lute photography
Martin, I do not know why you need a tripod for taking photos of lutes. I have been using both SLRs and digital - the later before the technology took off. It is posssible to take both micro and macro photos of a very high resolution handheld. The problem you might face is the flexibility of micro and macro views, but this is not impossible either, just more expensive. The good news is that digital cameras have plummeted in price and even a moderate Kodak camera comes with great software and quality features. Regards, Michael. Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear All, This is off-topic, I know, but I wondered if there's anybody out there in the Collective Wisdom who could offer me advice (off-list, please). I would like to buy a digital camera to take pictures of lutes. Going digital would greatly simplify getting photos to my web site, other people on the net, etc. I need a remote control so I can operate the shutter without touching the camera (and it needs a standard tripod fitting). I need a reasonable macro facility for taking roses and possibly small details as well. I also need to be able to take photos indoors, so accurate control of long exposures and good lighting will be needed (any suggestions for lighting?). I suspect that I will need to spend money on a decent tripod, lighting etc. rather than on the camera itself, especially as most images will have to be degraded for net use anyway. Bear in mind I'm not a photography nut and my understanding of the jargon is limited. I currently use an SLR camera, so I'm used to that way of working. Sorry to bore you with this but I'm attracted by the idea of taking a short cut by asking someone who knows! Best wishes, Martin - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online --
Re: sending test messages
Wayne all, For some of us with the Brouwser based E-mail such as hotmail or Yahoo, a SPAM filter is usually effective in warding off unwanted material, without culling luteNet E-mails. However, recently this has appeared in our bulk. It is fast approaching a stage where even REAL E-mail is being treated as SPAM. Of course using a free service entails a price in quality, however, being able to fly anywhere and read from a internet cafe has its advantages. Thanks to Wayne for continually addressing this problem. Regards, Michael Stitt. Wayne Cripps [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No - I am not sending a test message. But I would like to point out that certain viruses use the word test in their headers and so some test messages will be considered unwanted, like the recent test message from Christopher Schaub. Wayne - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance: Get your refund fast by filing online --
Just a test
Test Wayne Cripps [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Everyone - I have just installed a new filter into the lute list mechanism. When someone posts a message to the list, the robot looks to see if the mail address that the message is From: is the same, or close to, an address on the list. This way random people are prevented from posting messages which are totally inappropriate, which is good. However, it will also block some valid posters If you signed up to the lute list with a handle of [EMAIL PROTECTED] two years ago, and last year you changed your handle to [EMAIL PROTECTED] the robot will not recognise you. You will have to arrange with me to make both addresses the same. And if you get your lute messages sent to your home address of [EMAIL PROTECTED] but you like to post from your work address of [EMAIL PROTECTED] the robot will not recognise you either. You will have to post from your home account. The robot does have a small amount of intelligence. If you are on the list as [EMAIL PROTECTED] but you post from [EMAIL PROTECTED] the robot will recognise. but if you post from [EMAIL PROTECTED] the robot won't recognise you. You are allowed to post from a different computer, the first name after the @ sign, but the rest must be the same. I imagine some people will have trouble because of this, and I plan to fine tune the program as I go along. I will check the messages that get caught and notify the sender. Once again, I apologise for the hassle this will cause, but I have to take stronger stepas against unwanted messages. Wayne - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! --
Re: Air travel.
Ed and all, I once flew to Beijing with a very sturdy custom made metal case the size of a coffin only to discover that a crack emerged having not lowered the strings sufficiently. About to embark on the UK with the same case, this time strings retuned totally down in a soft cello case that I use for short distances carried like a backpack. BTW, I fixed the crack to the swan-neck by buying a tube of superglue at Peking University, and squeezed it in the crack. To date no problems! Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Could someone please elaborate on what the musician's union agreement states regarding this topic? I am curious. I have flown a great deal with lutes. I sometimes use a large metal flight case, have never had a problem with it. I also plead with the people about carry on lutes, have been successful. ed At 04:39 PM 2/3/04 -0500, Deb Fox wrote: The guitar travelled in the overhead, and just in case, I also carried a copy of the musicians union agreement Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! --
Re: Air travel.
The problem with all of this is what an earlier writer had highlighted, that the crisis occurs at the one time when you DON'T want it to happen. I recall explaining my lutecase to a number of Airlines representative, only to wonder if it was worth the risk or not. In the end it was stowed below. However, last year I managed to travel with a Turkish Sarz (long neck lute!)I purchased in Istanbul, and the stewardess, was very kind to let me stow it on board. Regards, Michael Stitt http://bachplucked.com/lutenist/ Deb Fox [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The agreement was made in December 2002 between the AFM (American Federation of Musicians) and the TSA (Transportation Security Administration, which is a branch of the US Dept. of Transportation). It basically states that musical instruments are allowed as carry-on baggage in addition to one bag and one personal item per person. Also, the TSA was supposed to communicate this with security screeners at airports to avoid any hassles along the way. I haven't tried to carry on my theorbo, and the agreement doesn't mention anything about size. Somehow,though, I imagine the theorbo would create a carry-on problem. But I have had no problems with smaller instruments. And once you get past the security and gate people, the flight attendants are always gracious and helpful with instruments, in my experience. For more info, you can visit the AFM website, at http://www.afm.org/public/home/index.php but I am not sure how much info there is accessible if you're not a member of the union. best, Deborah Fox - Original Message - From: Edward Martin To: Deb Fox ; Candace Magner ; Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2004 6:33 PM Subject: Re: Air travel. Could someone please elaborate on what the musician's union agreement states regarding this topic? I am curious. I have flown a great deal with lutes. I sometimes use a large metal flight case, have never had a problem with it. I also plead with the people about carry on lutes, have been successful. ed At 04:39 PM 2/3/04 -0500, Deb Fox wrote: The guitar travelled in the overhead, and just in case, I also carried a copy of the musicians union agreement Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] voice: (218) 728-1202 - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free web site building tool. Try it! --
Re: technical problems on lute-theorbo (+theorbo) Att: Chris
Chris, My apologies, I did not see your reply until Tony raised it just now. I wish I could give you more details about the harp device, but I still don't have it clear in my head. I plan to address it very soon. The problem with Ed's Koto idea - as far as I can see it, is how do you time it well playing swiftly the passagio of BWV 996? The harp hook sounds more practical. Regards, Michael Tony Chalkley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris, I haven't noticed a direct reply coming in to your question about the harp mechanism - if one did, could you pass it on, please? The idea is intriguing, as the harp mechanism I've seen on harps is a hook fitted into the harmonic curve of the instrument, which you can turn to touch the string at the right distance for a semitone up. More sophisticated versions exist, but one way or another they are fitted to the top block of wood at the wrest pin end. The koto-ji propostions are at the bridge end and it is easy to see that they are workable. Try as I might, I cannot see anywhere on my theorbo that I could attach a harp mechanism, short of building a sort of gantry out from the neck which would be out of reach, or having holes in the sounboard! Tony - Original Message - From: To: Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2004 1:24 AM Subject: Re: technical problems on lute-theorbo (+theorbo) Michael, Just curious about the harp-like device that Tim Crawford mentioned to you for raising a diapason up a 1/2 step. Would you mind describing it? I've seen these sorts of things on various harps and wondered how it might apply to my situation. Is it something that one could rig up on their own? I have a 14-course theorbo (only six on the fingerboard) and I'm getting a little annoyed at having to take the instrument off, stand up and re-tune if I need an F# or G# consistently in a piece. This can be especially distracting to other players in tight quarters. I wonder if the harp-device would attach down at the bridge, which would be reasonable as long as it wasn't too big and wouldn't get in the way when it wasn't being used. In that case, you could even engage it while in the course of a piece, given enough time. Even if the sound would be somewhat compromised, it would be worth it to avoid some of the hastle. I don't know if this would even have been considered in the historical days. At any rate, I think that the oldens were more practical than we give them credit sometimes. Chris Wilke --- Michael Stitt wrote: Hi Donatella, I checked out at a glance so far your tab version of BWV 996 and looks nice! There has been a real flowering of lute tablature of Bach's music. Clive Titmuss has been active and completed - quite recently, a playable version of BWV 1012 - the sixth cello suite. For beginners out there - be warned - this is not easy stuff! As for 996, it used to be my favourite and not too difficult on the classical guitar. For some strange reason I fnd it very hard on the Baroque lute. I worked out that it is not so much the technical PLAYING difficulty, but rather the problem of realisation on my fourteen course theorbo-lute. Since I note - your instrument, Donatella, is also a swan neck, you too problem run into the difficulty of not having D sharp bass, resulting in an unavoidable interruption of the passagio - opening prelude. Tim Crawford once gave an interesting solution to this, which is to attach a device - similar to one used by harpists, which stops the string. I haven't quite done this as yet! My temporary solution is to play the D# an octave higher, and although not perfect, is acceptable. You encounter this problem also in the Courante. As for the sxth cello suite, this is beautiful stuff on the lute and in the key of D Major makes it a warm and beautiful work to play. It has been said before that Bach wrote some of his finest and brighter sounding music in this key. The Magnificat is one such example. The prelude has the same intensity and virtuosic feel as that of BWV 1006a IMHO. Cheers. Michael Stitt http://bachplucked.com/lutenist/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes --
Re: technical problems on lute-theorbo (+theorbo)
Ed, Could you take a digital photo and show us? I think I've got the idea, but seeing it would explain everything. Michael. Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wonder if you could make a little portable bridge like those used on kotos. Since it would be between the strings and belly it wouldn't even get in the way. It wouldn't need to attach to anything. You would put felt or something similar on the bottom so as not to scratch the surface of the theorbo. You would only need enough pressure to make a node. I just tried this with the handle of a magnifying glass. It works! This is too easy. Michael, Just curious about the harp-like device that Tim Crawford mentioned to you for raising a diapason up a 1/2 step. Would you mind describing it? I've seen these sorts of things on various harps and wondered how it might apply to my situation. Is it something that one could rig up on their own? I have a 14-course theorbo (only six on the fingerboard) and I'm getting a little annoyed at having to take the instrument off, stand up and re-tune if I need an F# or G# consistently in a piece. This can be especially distracting to other players in tight quarters. I wonder if the harp-device would attach down at the bridge, which would be reasonable as long as it wasn't too big and wouldn't get in the way when it wasn't being used. In that case, you could even engage it while in the course of a piece, given enough time. Even if the sound would be somewhat compromised, it would be worth it to avoid some of the hastle. I don't know if this would even have been considered in the historical days. At any rate, I think that the oldens were more practical than we give them credit sometimes. Chris Wilke --- Michael Stitt wrote: Hi Donatella, I checked out at a glance so far your tab version of BWV 996 and looks nice! There has been a real flowering of lute tablature of Bach's music. Clive Titmuss has been active and completed - quite recently, a playable version of BWV 1012 - the sixth cello suite. For beginners out there - be warned - this is not easy stuff! As for 996, it used to be my favourite and not too difficult on the classical guitar. For some strange reason I fnd it very hard on the Baroque lute. I worked out that it is not so much the technical PLAYING difficulty, but rather the problem of realisation on my fourteen course theorbo-lute. Since I note - your instrument, Donatella, is also a swan neck, you too problem run into the difficulty of not having D sharp bass, resulting in an unavoidable interruption of the passagio - opening prelude. Tim Crawford once gave an interesting solution to this, which is to attach a device - similar to one used by harpists, which stops the string. I haven't quite done this as yet! My temporary solution is to play the D# an octave higher, and although not perfect, is acceptable. You encounter this problem also in the Courante. As for the sxth cello suite, this is beautiful stuff on the lute and in the key of D Major makes it a warm and beautiful work to play. It has been said before that Bach wrote some of his finest and brighter sounding music in this key. The Magnificat is one such example. The prelude has the same intensity and virtuosic feel as that of BWV 1006a IMHO. Cheers. Michael Stitt http://bachplucked.com/lutenist/ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/signingbonus -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes --
Re: Clasical Music Recording - Ed Martin
Ed, Yesterday I received two CD recordings of the other Ed - Ed Martin! His recordings are at Magatune, and in a day or two I will write about his superb Luis De Milano and Weiss/Losy/Baron duo recordings! BTW, a link to his Magnatune recordings can be found at http://weissplucked.com/, but more to come. Regards, Michael Stitt Ed Durbrow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In the days of vinyl one needed a manufacturing plant, in these days of digital CDs one needs only to rent a studio. I would see a resurgence of the classical coming as the majors drop it and the musicians move to the internet sales and the desk top production. This is indeed the new paradigm. I think concepts like Magnatune are the wave of the future. As CD sales drop, only the big sellers will be in the stable of the big labels. Someone told me that Vol. 6 of Barto's Weiss series was recorded in a living room. I don't know if that is true or not, but within the lute world, I imagine he is a big seller. With today's technology, the potential for quality recording can be had for only a few thousand dollars. I've had a home studio for 20 years and I am so glad to have gotten rid of all that big 'pro' gear. I've never been happier, technology-wise. Probably the most expensive link in the home/mobile recording chain is the mic/preamp. Of course, the acoustic environment is what you get in a proper studio, but for single instruments, lute, harp etc. you should be able to get a good sound almost anywhere, - if you know what you are doing. cheers, -- Ed Durbrow Saitama, Japan http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes --
Re: Modern music for Renaissance Baroque lute
Dear Betsy, Wow! What a comprehensive reply this was! Many thanks for this. I especially like the detailed CD list you have enclosed. I will contact Oliver about his Encyclopedia of New Lute Music. Once again many thanks for your detailed reply. Regards, Michael Stitt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Michael and lutenetters -- Here is the e-mail address of Oliver Holzenburg, who has just come out with an updated edition of his extensive Encyclopedia of New Lute Music: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I just guest-edited a double issue of the Lute Society Quarterly which is devoted to the theme of lute songs -- early and contemporary. Published in this issue are six compelling new lute songs (in a surprising range of styles, from traditional to contemporary) by Geoffrey Alvarez, Bryan Johanson, Gail Gillispie, Andrew Ager, Meinhard Gerlach and Frank Wallace, (who is also interviewed in the issue with his wife and duo partner, Nancy Knowles) as well as commentary by Toyohiko Satoh, Peter Croton and Jacob Heringman. For those who are interested in early lute songs there are 2 lute song intabulations of chansons, articles (including one by Gail Gillispie which explores Elizabethan language in lute songs), research (greatest song hits of the 16th century) and Renaissance lute song CD reviews. Also in the issue are addresses of websites with new lute song publications and other information on the subject, (including Brian Wright's new lute songs, published by the British lute Society and Roman Turovsky's intabulations for Baroque lute of classical and Romantic Lieder) Here is a list of CDs of newly composed and arranged songs for lute and voice which appears in the issue: Sad Steps: New Settings of Renaissance Poems Virelai -- Catherine King, voice; Jacob Heringman, lute; William Lyons, Renaissance flute; Susanna Pell, viol Riverrun Records: RVRCD62; 2002 Order from www.rvrcd.co.uk Includes Orpheus with his lute by Bryan Johanson, Sonnet 105 by Andrew Ager, My lute awake by Gail Gillispie, printed in the issue, and Fur Hermen by Jacob Heringman. (For more info, see CD review of Sad Steps in the issue) Sweeter Than Roses Derek Lee Ragin, countertenor; Peter Croton, lute; Gerd Lunenburger, recorder Balance (Munich) BAL-9425-1; 1998 Order from www.amazon.de 17th century lute songs and solos, as well as six songs by Peter Croton. Works of Toyohiko Satoh Ensemble Alba Musica Kyoto Chiyomi Yamada, soprano; Toyohiko Satoh, lutes; Taka Kitazaka and Toshiya Suzuki, recorders; Kaori Uemura, tenor viol; Michael Niessen, lute Channel Classics CCS 4692; 1992 Order from: www.channelclassics.com Lute songs, solos, duets and chamber music by Toyohiko Satoh Woman of the Water: Songs of Frank Wallace By Duo LiveOak -- Nancy Knowles, soprano and Frank Wallace, lute Gyre Music 10082; 2003 Order from: www.gyremusic.com Includes The Restored, printed in this issue, first published by Gyre Music and available to purchase at www.gyremusic.com See interview for more info. Silence Diane Severson, soprano and Meinhard Gerlach, lute GEMA LJ1812885891; 2002 Order through Thomas Schall at www.tslaute.de/katalog-ts.jsp Lute songs and solos by Meinhard Gerlach (includes Leise Lieder, printed in this issue) Lute Unleashed Carver Blanchard, voice and lute, string bass, harmonica and recorder Albany Records Troy 083; 1992 Order at: www.albanyrecords.com Arrangements of spirituals, worksongs, popular classics and music by Stephen Foster and his contemporaries. (Carver Blanchard also has an article on arranging, transposing and memorizing for the lute in this issue) Best, Betsy Small - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes --
New Cello Lute: Into the New Century
New Cello Lute - 14 Course Theorbo http://bachplucked.com/stittm.htm - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes --
Re: MORE THAN 14 course German theorbo?
Good on you Donatella, I concur with all the way on this! Reading Forkel and subsequent keyboard players note that Bach's music is very difficult to play. It is generally regarded that his music was written in his mind and not with his fingers. The man continually strived to write pure music without the limitation of finger tampering. The whole history of his music leading up to the Art of the Fugue (where no instruments are specified for this monumental work) always strives more and more complex, but necessarily idiomatic music. Bach was in possession of a lute worth a considerable sum in the inventory of his Estate following death. I just cant imagine a man with the mind of Bach conceiving masterpieces for so many instruments, not understanding the lute and missing a low Gg! Regards, Michael Stitt Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Donatella, I'm not sure - there were many different types of lute around at Bach's day. Just as an example the low G usually would fit the tessitura of an archlute - giving the italian connections of the courts it would be understandable how this mistake could happen. Or - another possibility: It was even intended to be played on an archlute (which would make the complete work much easier). If you tune the 13th course down to g you will need to change the A which seldom but occassionally appears in the suite. So this would point into a similar direction: Bach wouldn't have known the tessitura of the baroque lute. Actually I don't think the work, even if dedicated to someone who is known to have played the lute, is arranged for a lute in baroque tuning. Writing such awkward difficult (if possible to play at all) compositions would have been considered bad at Bach's time. Best wishes Thomas Am Die, 2004-01-06 um 14.09 schrieb Donatella Galletti: I don't think someone like Bach made tiny mistakes of this sort. I played BWV 995 years ago, at my final Diploma, setting the 13th course as a G and it worked, and I read from staff. Weyrauch is easier, but makes some changes I don't think Bach would have much appreciated. Donatella http://web.tiscali.it/awebd - Original Message - From: Thomas Schall To: Howard Posner Cc: Michael Stitt ; Miles Dempster ; Lute Net Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 10:51 AM Subject: Re: MORE THAN 14 course German theorbo? The piece in question (BWV 995) is the only one (apart from the short prelude BWV 999) clearly dedicated to the Lute. The rest could have been to the Lautenwerk (which would have a low g) but this one most likely really was rearranged for the lute. The compromise - as I already said - would be that Big B. made that tiny little mistake regarding the range of the lute. Best wishes Thomas Am Die, 2004-01-06 um 02.09 schrieb Howard Posner: Michael Stitt at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for this Thomas. Assuming Bach either misunderstood the lowest tuning of the Baroque lute (which I very much doubt) not being an Gg but rather a Aa, or was in contact with such a 14 course instrument. I think it makes more sense to assume that he had a low G on his lautenwerk. -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss -- __ Tiscali ADSL SENZA CANONE: Attivazione GRATIS, contributo adesione GRATIS, modem GRATIS, 50 ore di navigazione GRATIS. ABBONARTI TI COSTA SOLO UN CLICK! http://point.tiscali.it/adsl/index.shtml -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss -- - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes --
Re: MORE THAN 14 course German theorbo?
Dear Arto and Thomas, I think those who leave the Bach lute suites, however debateable they be that they were conceived on a lute, off their repertoire agenda, miss out on great music. It is hard work on the lute but IMHO well worth the effort. I play them all (although I still have some difficulty with the fuga BWV 997) . The only one which I feel is particularly better suited for a guitar is BWV 996 perhaps because of the e minor key which is well suited to that instrument. Over the years I have gained a greater appreciation for other composers, particularly Hagen and Weiss still primarily the German composer. Recently I have started writing my own music, but thats progressing slowly so far. As for Weiss, those late Dresden Suites are wonderful and thats what I have been playing on a daily basis. The problem I have is my old fashionness! I love contrapuntal music so while I enjoy Weisss idiomatic insight with the lute, I wish we had more fugas like BWV 996, 997, 998 and 1000. Thats why Im turning to my own compositions however, amateurish they may be. Michael Stitt Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:Hi Michael, if it was a lute or a mandora which Bach owned - nobody knows. His household had quite many instruments and he not necessarily played all of them. He was in firendly contact with JC Hoffmann, yes, bu Johann Christian also has built many other instruments apart from lutes. The difficulty could mean many things: technical difficulty or musical difficulty. Usually the works by Bach were regarded as musically difficult - difficult to understand, difficult to listen to them etc. old-fashioned. Bach was more famous for being an exceptional keyboard player during his lifetime than for his compositions! Best wishes Thomas Am Die, 2004-01-06 um 22.59 schrieb Michael Stitt: Good on you Donatella, I concur with all the way on this! Reading Forkel and subsequent keyboard players note that Bach's music is very difficult to play. It is generally regarded that his music was written in his mind and not with his fingers. The man continually strived to write pure music without the limitation of finger tampering. The whole history of his music leading up to the Art of the Fugue (where no instruments are specified for this monumental work) always strives more and more complex, but necessarily idiomatic music. Bach was in possession of a lute worth a considerable sum in the inventory of his Estate following death. I just can?t imagine a man with the mind of Bach conceiving masterpieces for so many instruments, not understanding the lute and missing a low Gg! Regards, Michael Stitt Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Donatella, I'm not sure - there were many different types of lute around at Bach's day. Just as an example the low G usually would fit the tessitura of an archlute - giving the italian connections of the courts it would be understandable how this mistake could happen. Or - another possibility: It was even intended to be played on an archlute (which would make the complete work much easier). If you tune the 13th course down to g you will need to change the A which seldom but occassionally appears in the suite. So this would point into a similar direction: Bach wouldn't have known the tessitura of the baroque lute. Actually I don't think the work, even if dedicated to someone who is known to have played the lute, is arranged for a lute in baroque tuning. Writing such awkward difficult (if possible to play at all) compositions would have been considered bad at Bach's time. Best wishes Thomas Am Die, 2004-01-06 um 14.09 schrieb Donatella Galletti: I don't think someone like Bach made tiny mistakes of this sort. I played BWV 995 years ago, at my final Diploma, setting the 13th course as a G and it worked, and I read from staff. Weyrauch is easier, but makes some changes I don't think Bach would have much appreciated. Donatella http://web.tiscali.it/awebd - Original Message - From: Thomas Schall To: Howard Posner Cc: Michael Stitt ; Miles Dempster ; Lute Net Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 10:51 AM Subject: Re: MORE THAN 14 course German theorbo? The piece in question (BWV 995) is the only one (apart from the short prelude BWV 999) clearly dedicated to the Lute. The rest could have been to the Lautenwerk (which would have a low g) but this one most likely really was rearranged for the lute. The compromise - as I already said - would be that Big B. made that tiny little mistake regarding the range of the lute. Best wishes Thomas Am Die, 2004-01-06 um 02.09 schrieb Howard Posner: Michael Stitt at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for this Thomas. Assuming Bach either misunderstood the lowest tuning of the Baroque lute (which I very much doubt) not being an Gg but rather a Aa, or was in contact with such a 14 course instrument
Re: MORE THAN 14 course German theorbo?
That Bach was known as an exceptional keyboardist rivalling Handel and Scarlatti was indeed well known, however, Forkel and those who defended Bach in the mid eighteenth century acknowledged his abilities as a composer. I know of no other composer who transcribes so well to other instruments. It is truly pure music. Even Weiss does not hold well on other instruments I suspect compared with Bach. Regards, M. Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Michael, if it was a lute or a mandora which Bach owned - nobody knows. His household had quite many instruments and he not necessarily played all of them. He was in firendly contact with JC Hoffmann, yes, bu Johann Christian also has built many other instruments apart from lutes. The difficulty could mean many things: technical difficulty or musical difficulty. Usually the works by Bach were regarded as musically difficult - difficult to understand, difficult to listen to them etc. old-fashioned. Bach was more famous for being an exceptional keyboard player during his lifetime than for his compositions! Best wishes Thomas Am Die, 2004-01-06 um 22.59 schrieb Michael Stitt: Good on you Donatella, I concur with all the way on this! Reading Forkel and subsequent keyboard players note that Bach's music is very difficult to play. It is generally regarded that his music was written in his mind and not with his fingers. The man continually strived to write pure music without the limitation of finger tampering. The whole history of his music leading up to the Art of the Fugue (where no instruments are specified for this monumental work) always strives more and more complex, but necessarily idiomatic music. Bach was in possession of a lute worth a considerable sum in the inventory of his Estate following death. I just can?t imagine a man with the mind of Bach conceiving masterpieces for so many instruments, not understanding the lute and missing a low Gg! Regards, Michael Stitt Thomas Schall wrote: Dear Donatella, I'm not sure - there were many different types of lute around at Bach's day. Just as an example the low G usually would fit the tessitura of an archlute - giving the italian connections of the courts it would be understandable how this mistake could happen. Or - another possibility: It was even intended to be played on an archlute (which would make the complete work much easier). If you tune the 13th course down to g you will need to change the A which seldom but occassionally appears in the suite. So this would point into a similar direction: Bach wouldn't have known the tessitura of the baroque lute. Actually I don't think the work, even if dedicated to someone who is known to have played the lute, is arranged for a lute in baroque tuning. Writing such awkward difficult (if possible to play at all) compositions would have been considered bad at Bach's time. Best wishes Thomas Am Die, 2004-01-06 um 14.09 schrieb Donatella Galletti: I don't think someone like Bach made tiny mistakes of this sort. I played BWV 995 years ago, at my final Diploma, setting the 13th course as a G and it worked, and I read from staff. Weyrauch is easier, but makes some changes I don't think Bach would have much appreciated. Donatella http://web.tiscali.it/awebd - Original Message - From: Thomas Schall To: Howard Posner Cc: Michael Stitt ; Miles Dempster ; Lute Net Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 10:51 AM Subject: Re: MORE THAN 14 course German theorbo? The piece in question (BWV 995) is the only one (apart from the short prelude BWV 999) clearly dedicated to the Lute. The rest could have been to the Lautenwerk (which would have a low g) but this one most likely really was rearranged for the lute. The compromise - as I already said - would be that Big B. made that tiny little mistake regarding the range of the lute. Best wishes Thomas Am Die, 2004-01-06 um 02.09 schrieb Howard Posner: Michael Stitt at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for this Thomas. Assuming Bach either misunderstood the lowest tuning of the Baroque lute (which I very much doubt) not being an Gg but rather a Aa, or was in contact with such a 14 course instrument. I think it makes more sense to assume that he had a low G on his lautenwerk. -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss -- __ Tiscali ADSL SENZA CANONE: Attivazione GRATIS, contributo adesione GRATIS, modem GRATIS, 50 ore di navigazione GRATIS. ABBONARTI TI COSTA SOLO UN CLICK! http://point.tiscali.it/adsl/index.shtml -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: MORE THAN 14 course German theorbo?
Thomas, You are quite right. I'm currently enjoying the lute journey of discovery as far as learning composers for this wonderful instrument. Michael. Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Michael, Bach wrote very fine music, no doubt and it deserves to be played. I am just a bit surfeits (?) by Bach on the lute or guitar. It's the very secure way to play Bach because everybody will tell you how marvelous the music would be. I personally think it's much more fun to intrduce audiences in the rich and wonderfull world of the lute - there is so much to detect and Bach's lute work is just a nice detail regarding the vast amount of marvelous music which was written for the lute. I better do not start a discussion about contrapuntal music on the baroque lute ... All the best (and I hope discussions like these don't affect your enthusiasm for Bach!) Thomas Am Die, 2004-01-06 um 23.57 schrieb Michael Stitt: Dear Arto and Thomas, I think those who leave the Bach lute suites, however debateable they be that they were conceived on a lute, off their repertoire agenda, miss out on great music. It is hard work on the lute but IMHO well worth the effort. I play them all (although I still have some difficulty with the fuga BWV 997) . The only one which I feel is particularly better suited for a guitar is BWV 996 ? perhaps because of the e minor key which is well suited to that instrument. Over the years I have gained a greater appreciation for other composers, particularly Hagen and Weiss ? still primarily the German composer. Recently I have started writing my own music, but that?s progressing slowly so far. As for Weiss, those late Dresden Suites are wonderful and that?s what I have been playing on a daily basis. The problem I have is my old fashionness! I love contrapuntal music ? so while I enjoy Weiss?s idiomatic insight with the lute, I wish we had more fugas like BWV 996, 997, 998 and 1000. That?s why I?m turning to my own compositions however, amateurish they may be. Michael Stitt Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Michael, if it was a lute or a mandora which Bach owned - nobody knows. His household had quite many instruments and he not necessarily played all of them. He was in firendly contact with JC Hoffmann, yes, bu Johann Christian also has built many other instruments apart from lutes. The difficulty could mean many things: technical difficulty or musical difficulty. Usually the works by Bach were regarded as musically difficult - difficult to understand, difficult to listen to them etc. old-fashioned. Bach was more famous for being an exceptional keyboard player during his lifetime than for his compositions! Best wishes Thomas Am Die, 2004-01-06 um 22.59 schrieb Michael Stitt: Good on you Donatella, I concur with all the way on this! Reading Forkel and subsequent keyboard players note that Bach's music is very difficult to play. It is generally regarded that his music was written in his mind and not with his fingers. The man continually strived to write pure music without the limitation of finger tampering. The whole history of his music leading up to the Art of the Fugue (where no instruments are specified for this monumental work) always strives more and more complex, but necessarily idiomatic music. Bach was in possession of a lute worth a considerable sum in the inventory of his Estate following death. I just can?t imagine a man with the mind of Bach conceiving masterpieces for so many instruments, not understanding the lute and missing a low Gg! Regards, Michael Stitt Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Donatella, I'm not sure - there were many different types of lute around at Bach's day. Just as an example the low G usually would fit the tessitura of an archlute - giving the italian connections of the courts it would be understandable how this mistake could happen. Or - another possibility: It was even intended to be played on an archlute (which would make the complete work much easier). If you tune the 13th course down to g you will need to change the A which seldom but occassionally appears in the suite. So this would point into a similar direction: Bach wouldn't have known the tessitura of the baroque lute. Actually I don't think the work, even if dedicated to someone who is known to have played the lute, is arranged for a lute in baroque tuning. Writing such awkward difficult (if possible to play at all) compositions would have been considered bad at Bach's time. Best wishes Thomas Am Die, 2004-01-06 um 14.09 schrieb Donatella Galletti: I don't think someone like Bach made tiny mistakes of this sort. I played BWV 995 years ago, at my final Diploma, setting the 13th course as a G and it worked, and I read from staff. Weyrauch is easier, but makes some changes I don't think Bach would have much appreciated. Donatella http://web.tiscali.it/awebd - Original
Re: MORE THAN 14 course German theorbo?
Which Clavier-Ubung? I assume No.3 - Goldberg variations? In which case, technically difficult indeed. I understand the Tocattas for keyboard are thought to have been written on clavichord (Here I refer not to the organ works) are the closest we have to Bach the improvisor - how the man extemporised and once again I understand are a tremendous challenge for a keyboard player to work through. regards, Michael. Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thomas Schall at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The difficulty could mean many things: technical difficulty or musical difficulty. Usually the works by Bach were regarded as musically difficult - difficult to understand, difficult to listen to them etc. old-fashioned. Were regarded by whom, other than Johann Adolph Scheibe in a couple of paragraphs in a 1737 article that were roundly denounced by Birnbaum and Mizler? BTW, Scheibe wrote that Bach demands that singers and instrumentalists should be able to do with their throats and instruments whatever he can play on the clavier, but this is impossible. Bach was more famous for being an exceptional keyboard player during his lifetime than for his compositions! His keyboard playing would have consisted mostly of his compositions, improvisations and continuo playing, so I think it misses the point to draw a sharp distinction between Bach the player and Bach the composer. In any event, Scheibe's 1739 praise of the Italian Concerto (yes, the same Scheibe), Mizler's 1740 praise of the Clavier-Ubung, Mattheson's 1737 remarks on the A minor sonata for unaccompanies violin, Quantz's 1752 remarks about organ music, Marpurg's 1754 dedication that speaks about Bach's combination of melody and harmony, and others all speak of his skill as a composer. Just cruising through the excerpts in the Bach Reader, I see rather more about Bach's music itself than his execution. Howard - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes --
Re: MORE THAN 14 course German theorbo?
Thomas, Very interesting indeed! Well I might try a retune and explore. Many thanks, Michael Stitt Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My liuto attiorbato (14-ch. model after Sellas) has a low F and it's frequently used by Mellii, Zamboni and others. I have not seen up to now a piece in the italian baroque which uses a 15th ch. - many players even tune their 14th course at f-sharp (for easier continuo). BTW: BWV 995 works fine on a 13-ch instrument when tuning the 13th course at G and transposing just the very few passages an A is needed. Best wishes Thomas Am Mon, 2004-01-05 um 22.52 schrieb Michael Stitt: Thanks for this Thomas. Assuming Bach either misunderstood the lowest tuning of the Baroque lute (which I very much doubt) not being an Gg but rather a Aa, or was in contact with such a 14 course instrument. Just how low can the instrument be tuned down to take advantage of low bass strings for musical affect on the instrument? My thumb with little finger JUST manages the stretch to reach those low Gs, but I find that - say in the final bars of BWV 995 my hand assumes a guitarist-like position. I had once thought of adding a fifteenth course a very low Ff, but in the end musically what would this achieve? Any suggestions on the value of a very low Ff? Regards, Michael Stitt Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Miles, Zamboni wrote for an Archlute which is tuned in the vielle tone (renaissance tuning) while Michael tunes his instrument in the new (d-minor) tuning. Archlutes are usually 14-ch., I also know about 15-ch. examples (for example in Paris - take a look at the website of David van Edwards and search for liito attiorbato and you'll find fotos of replica). There are a lot of other differences to the baroque (d-minor) lute (barring, usual number of ribs etc.) and I think one need to name them as different instruments. best wishes Thomas Am Mon, 2004-01-05 um 19.45 schrieb Miles Dempster: Dear Michael, Zamboni' s sonatas very occasionally use a 14th course. Regards Miles Dempster On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 09:29 PM, Michael Stitt wrote: Dear all, Am I right to assume that Bach's music is the only music to require that low Gg - fourteeth course? The ambiguity and terminology of description for this lute has always been a bit of problem for me. When asked what instrument I play and Courses versus `number of strings', it becomes a mouthful. I am asked: `What instrument do you play?' I play a 14 course German theorbo, is usually my reply. But then explaining that each course has two `doubled-up' strings but the first two are single, making a sum total of twenty-six NOT twenty-eight strings... Then there is `fourteen course??!' - I thought the Baroque lute has thirteen courses? My response is: `Yes, a Gg tp play Bach's BWV 995, 1997, 1000' Almost finally, but is it really a theorbo or a Baroque lute? `Yes it is a theorbo because it has the extra bass pegbox'. Why the German bit? `It is based on a lute constructed by JCHoffmann who was German...'. End of breath... I bet a guitarist does not get this, six strings will do! hehe. Regards, Michael Stitt - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now -- -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss -- - Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 -- Thomas SchallNiederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach06196/[EMAIL PROTECTED] / www.tslaute.de/weiss - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --
Re: MORE THAN 14 course German theorbo?
Thanks for this Thomas. Assuming Bach either misunderstood the lowest tuning of the Baroque lute (which I very much doubt) not being an Gg but rather a Aa, or was in contact with such a 14 course instrument. Just how low can the instrument be tuned down to take advantage of low bass strings for musical affect on the instrument? My thumb with little finger JUST manages the stretch to reach those low Gs, but I find that - say in the final bars of BWV 995 my hand assumes a guitarist-like position. I had once thought of adding a fifteenth course a very low Ff, but in the end musically what would this achieve? Any suggestions on the value of a very low Ff? Regards, Michael Stitt Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Miles, Zamboni wrote for an Archlute which is tuned in the vielle tone (renaissance tuning) while Michael tunes his instrument in the new (d-minor) tuning. Archlutes are usually 14-ch., I also know about 15-ch. examples (for example in Paris - take a look at the website of David van Edwards and search for liito attiorbato and you'll find fotos of replica). There are a lot of other differences to the baroque (d-minor) lute (barring, usual number of ribs etc.) and I think one need to name them as different instruments. best wishes Thomas Am Mon, 2004-01-05 um 19.45 schrieb Miles Dempster: Dear Michael, Zamboni' s sonatas very occasionally use a 14th course. Regards Miles Dempster On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 09:29 PM, Michael Stitt wrote: Dear all, Am I right to assume that Bach's music is the only music to require that low Gg - fourteeth course? The ambiguity and terminology of description for this lute has always been a bit of problem for me. When asked what instrument I play and Courses versus `number of strings', it becomes a mouthful. I am asked: `What instrument do you play?' I play a 14 course German theorbo, is usually my reply. But then explaining that each course has two `doubled-up' strings but the first two are single, making a sum total of twenty-six NOT twenty-eight strings... Then there is `fourteen course??!' - I thought the Baroque lute has thirteen courses? My response is: `Yes, a Gg tp play Bach's BWV 995, 1997, 1000' Almost finally, but is it really a theorbo or a Baroque lute? `Yes it is a theorbo because it has the extra bass pegbox'. Why the German bit? `It is based on a lute constructed by JCHoffmann who was German...'. End of breath... I bet a guitarist does not get this, six strings will do! hehe. Regards, Michael Stitt - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now -- -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss -- - Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 --
Re: MORE THAN 14 course German theorbo? BACH
Howard, This is fair assumption to make, but I don't think a man who devoted a greater part of his life to music, a meticulous thinker, friends of at least two lutenists, and one frequented by one of the greatest of them all (Weiss), without mistaking the lowest bass string on the lute. It just seems too hard to believe. He may have written it on the lautenwerke, but he intended it to be played on a lute, ( See autograph copy). I think it all points to Weyrauch (sp?) or Falkenhagen - or - and no one knows for sure on this - Schouster - a possible amateur lutenist? having ownership of a 14 course with that low Gg. Best regards, Michael. Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Stitt at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for this Thomas. Assuming Bach either misunderstood the lowest tuning of the Baroque lute (which I very much doubt) not being an Gg but rather a Aa, or was in contact with such a 14 course instrument. I think it makes more sense to assume that he had a low G on his lautenwerk. - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes --
Re: 14 course German theorbo? Three peg boxes?
Roman, Interesting. Is there any advantage in tuning this instrument over a swan neck? M. Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I note Bob Barto plays something like a three-pegbox swan neck theorbo lute. Is this a modern adaption or based on a historical - period instrument? http://polyhymnion.org/swv/vita.html RT - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Hotjobs: Enter the Signing Bonus Sweepstakes --
14 course German theorbo?
Dear all, Am I right to assume that Bach's music is the only music to require that low Gg - fourteeth course? The ambiguity and terminology of description for this lute has always been a bit of problem for me. When asked what instrument I play and Courses versus `number of strings', it becomes a mouthful. I am asked: `What instrument do you play?' I play a 14 course German theorbo, is usually my reply. But then explaining that each course has two `doubled-up' strings but the first two are single, making a sum total of twenty-six NOT twenty-eight strings... Then there is `fourteen course??!' - I thought the Baroque lute has thirteen courses? My response is: `Yes, a Gg tp play Bach's BWV 995, 1997, 1000' Almost finally, but is it really a theorbo or a Baroque lute? `Yes it is a theorbo because it has the extra bass pegbox'. Why the German bit? `It is based on a lute constructed by JCHoffmann who was German...'. End of breath... I bet a guitarist does not get this, six strings will do! hehe. Regards, Michael Stitt - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --
Modern music for Renaissance Baroque lute
Dear Luteneers, Does anyone know a web site which has a comprehensive list of music written by contemporary composers for the Renaissance Baroque lutes? Regards, Michael Stitt - Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 --
Re: Modern music for Renaissance Baroque lute
Thanks for this Roman, BTW, I tried to post this directly to you, however, I suspect your ISP considers my yahoo mail as Spam as it returned it with a deamon error message. The question is where I post it cc lutenet, you will still recieve it. Here goes. M. Roman Turovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Luteneers, Does anyone know a web site which has a comprehensive list of music written by contemporary composers for the Renaissance Baroque lutes? Regards, Michael Stitt There is none, but David Parsons and Lynda Sayce are compiling one. It would be a hard copy publication though. RT - Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 --
Re: 14 course German theorbo?
Thanks for this Sterling. I do recall on a couple of occasions calling my instrument `a Baroque lute' only to be corrected that it is a theorbo. Will the real instrument please stand up?! hehe. When you say you play Weiss C Major Suites with a 14th course, do you mean playing the dominant - G - an octave lower? Gg? I must give this a go. Best regards, Michael Stitt sterling price [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi- I play a 14c baroque-lute. I use the 14th course all time in Weiss where it makes sense-for instance in c major keys. The thing about playing a 14 course baroque lute is the music is designed for 13 courses so having a 14th can be confusing for the thumb when playing a 13c then a 14c like I do. I moved the 14th over so there is a bigger space between 13 and 14. Also-just call it what it is-a baroque lute. The difference in sound is barely noticable. Sterling Price --- Michael Stitt wrote: Dear all, Am I right to assume that Bach's music is the only music to require that low Gg - fourteeth course? The ambiguity and terminology of description for this lute has always been a bit of problem for me. When asked what instrument I play and Courses versus `number of strings', it becomes a mouthful. I am asked: `What instrument do you play?' I play a 14 course German theorbo, is usually my reply. But then explaining that each course has two `doubled-up' strings but the first two are single, making a sum total of twenty-six NOT twenty-eight strings... Then there is `fourteen course??!' - I thought the Baroque lute has thirteen courses? My response is: `Yes, a Gg tp play Bach's BWV 995, 1997, 1000' Almost finally, but is it really a theorbo or a Baroque lute? `Yes it is a theorbo because it has the extra bass pegbox'. Why the German bit? `It is based on a lute constructed by JCHoffmann who was German...'. End of breath... I bet a guitarist does not get this, six strings will do! hehe. Regards, Michael Stitt - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now -- __ Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 http://search.yahoo.com/top2003 - Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 --
Re: Happy New Year from Down Under
Dear Luteneers, Happy New Year from Down Under! Looking forward today to Kangaroo pie with Wallaby spounge cake for lunch today under the coolabar tree! Regards to all, Michael Stitt Australian Lutenist http://bachplucked.com/lutenist/ - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --
Re: Vivaldi Lute Concerto
J.S.Bach? :-) Michael Stitt http://weissplucked.com/ Sal Salvaggio [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On this Vivaldi Concerto - I've played it on the Baroque (dm) lute and it sits very well - I wonder if a certain German Lutenist was in town and played it back in Antonio's day. SS __ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ - Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing --
Re: S.L, Weiss: Segovia's letters to Ponce
You should look at the primary source: Segovia's letters to Ponce. Sometime in the 1920s, Segovia was in a great rush to perform the work and asked Ponce to attribute the work to. He suggested Weiss as most of the music public already new most of Bach's guitar transcriptions. I believe it is a fine work. Lesser known is the Suite he wrote in D Major of which the Prelude is very beautiful indeed. I have played both on Baroque lute and it sounds fine indeed! Ponce is IMHO a highly under-rated guitar composer. Why? Most of his music was written by a piano based composer who wrote difficult music. Many composer prefer the easy stuff like Sor and Guiliani and much of Villa Lobos. His La Folia Variations are probably his finest work. Regards, Michael Stitt http://bachplucked.com/ - Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing --
Re: The ecological sustainable lute luthier
Gimme a break - NOT! Okay I'm prepared to accept the gist of your argument to a point. The music instrument making and - dare I say it - furniture industry are not cut off from mother earth when it comes to economics and the demand for wood! Just as I as a consumer have consumer soveignity on the purchase of consumer goods. I acknowledge that luthiers are a small part of the process that has impact on native and exotic trees, but I've seen some hefty prices for quality woods used for a multitude of manufacturing purposes. Just how many produces of wood based products ask: `Just how and where did this fine piece of wood come from and by what means?' Very few I suspect. BTW, all trees are dead when they are cut down. :-) Respectfully, Michael Stitt http://bachplucked.com/ Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gimme a break, There is no way that the needs of luthiers for exotic woods can endanger the trees. Luciano says that his woods come from dead trees, but it isn't necessary that he say that. The massive endangerment of the rain forests in S.A. is not only from the loggers but also the cut and burn of the native agriculturists. Any wood sold as rosewood, or whatever, comes from someone who knew the value of the rosewood. The problem is those who don't know that the wood has value and just cut it to get it out of the way (either of their crop fields, or of their lumbering). The forests of England and Spain were stripped of fine oak in the time of the great fleets, but the yew wasn't stripped for the archers. The bow had to be made from just the right branch of a mature tree - whereas the masts of the Armada and the English fleet required the entire trunk of the straightest and best oak. Take any wood you will, the entire production of hand crafted musical instruments in the world won't impact the ecology. But if the elite decide they need rosewood dashboards on their cars, and the polloi follow them, that would be a problem. There is an old joke, The Lawyer's Prayer: Dear God, if there is a God, and for the purposes of this prayer we shall assume there is a God. Well then I'll say that that god invented rosewood, cherry and all the other exotic wood specifically for the use of luthiers - to be harvested carefully and nurtured for the making of music for mankind. But not for clear cutting or burning. Best, Jon - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --
John Cage on Lute
Does any one know whether John Cage wrote for the lute in his life time? I heard something about a contemporary composer who wrote a Passaicialle where after each return of the bass motif, a course was cut with sizzors until all strings were no more. Then silence. - Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing --
Re: Copyright and library restrictions in Germany
Dear Stefan Stewart, Surely this cannot be true. I would assume this one just remains in legal limbo-land - untested and without precedent. Regards, Michael Stitt Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Stefan, Thank you for all this information. I think it would be very difficult to prove that you were the first person to perform music from a lute manuscript. The chances are that the original owner of the manuscript played music from it to a few friends, and so (according to your interpretation of German law) he would own the copyright for the next 25 years, after which it would be in the public domain. That would mean, for example, that Richard Mynshall could claim a royalty from us, if we were to perform music from his manuscript before 1622. After that it's all up for grabs. Best wishes, Stewart. - Original Message - From: Stefan Ecke To: Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 8:55 PM Subject: Copyright and library restrictions in Germany An Editio Princeps is the first edition of a piece of music that was never published before. Thus this part of the copyright law only applies to lute manuscripts and not to historical prints of lute music. The person who first publishes or performs (!!) a so far unpublished piece of music, owns the rights overs the music for the next 25 years! Thus the lutenist who is first to publish or perform in public a previously unpublished piece of music, can ask for royalties form all other lutenists that play the piece. Personally, I think this regulation is unbelievable. - Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing --
The ecological sustainable lute luthier
Dear all, Just after reading the lute doctor I just wondered what the state of play is for luthiers these days. Have we come to a point where woods used for the construction of lutes and historical based instruments are using ecologically sustainable timbers? By this I mean timbers which have been grown and distributed based on best practise, sustainable principles. I believe that my 1971 lute constructed from Brazilian rose wood - the wood being an endangered timber, and becoming a rarity for instrument construction. Is this true? Any passionate thoughts about this subject? I acknowledge it must be quite a dilemma for those luthiers who genuine ethical regard for the environment. Regards, Michael Stitt - Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing --
Re: The ecological sustainable lute luthier
Thanks for your detailed reply Michael. I guess some companies - and I'm sure there are many, which condone woodchipping and other uses on a non sustainable basis, which are the real vandals, and not the humble luthier. Its unfortunate that the market (and therefore $$$) which appears to be the only real regulation for the purchase of rainforest timbers. Perhaps I am wrong but I understand the Amazon still undergoes enormous removal of prime timbers which continue to be illegally logged. I do recall a thread on this list discussing alternative materials including plastics ( frightening thought isn't it!) to curb the ever diminishing supply of rare woods. Regards, Michael. Michael Thames [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Michael, In this day and age, I think cutting down any tree whether endangered, or not, is a crime. However, some crimes are more serious than others. This from a self confessed criminal. The only thing stopping me from buying up all the Brazilian rosewood I can is the price, and whats worse than cutting down Brazilian rosewood, is cutting down Yew wood, the longest living tree on the planet, with the exception of maybe a couple others. I don't know how it is in Canada and further north of New Mexico, but every pine tree here has been killed by the pine beetle, and scientist here predict it will only get worse and spread further north, as the planet warms. I've witnessed this myself and have seen this spread to the higher elevations were it will affect spruce as well. I can live without Brazilian rosewood, but simply can do without spruce. I hope this is not happening in Europe. Michael Thames Luthier www.ThamesClassicalGuitars.com Site design by Natalina Calia-Thames - Original Message - From: Michael Stitt To: Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2003 8:52 PM Subject: The ecological sustainable lute luthier Dear all, Just after reading the lute doctor I just wondered what the state of play is for luthiers these days. Have we come to a point where woods used for the construction of lutes and historical based instruments are using ecologically sustainable timbers? By this I mean timbers which have been grown and distributed based on best practise, sustainable principles. I believe that my 1971 lute constructed from Brazilian rose wood - the wood being an endangered timber, and becoming a rarity for instrument construction. Is this true? Any passionate thoughts about this subject? I acknowledge it must be quite a dilemma for those luthiers who genuine ethical regard for the environment. Regards, Michael Stitt - Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing -- - Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing --
Re: The ecological sustainable lute luthier
Dear Luciano others My comment by no means intended to suggest that all wood from Brazil was illegally obtained by luthiers. If my last E-mail read like this then I certainly need to make this clear. Like I expressed broadly before, I'm sure most luthier's are honest, hard working craftsman trying to make something beautiful within appropriate ethical practices. But I do wonder how one can guage exactly where timbers have come from? and indeed whether - unabiguiously, this wood has been harvest based on ecological sustainable practises - therefore legal? Michael Stitt Luciano Faria [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Michael, I'm a brazilian lute maker and I have hundreds of sets of Brazilian = rosewood, King wood, tulip wood and many other tropical hardwoods. ALL = my wood has been sawned from dead trees and this is a legal and = certified source of wood. I know a lot of instrument makers here and = almost all rosewood in their stocks came from dead trees or recicled = furniture. There are hundreds of dead logs being certified each year and = this is more than sufficient for instrument making around the world.=20 Best, Luciano Faria -- - Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing --
Karl-Ernst Schröder - Weiss contribution.
Dear luteneers, I understand from an E-mail not so long ago that Karl-Ernst Schröder passed away recently. My only contact, (if that the word for it) of Karl Ernst was the wonderful recording he made with Bob of the missing duet part from the Dresden MS. So it comes as a surprise that he passed away. Did Karl Ernst do other Weiss recordings? If so can anyone provide CD details. I did a review of this CD sometime ago but currently in the process of updating. I have made a small acknowledgement of his work at the weissplucked web site, but if others can fill in more about this work. http://bachplucked.com/weiss/new.htm Regards, Michael Stitt http://weissplucked.com/ http://bachplucked.com/ - Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing --
Re: numbers
I might be wrong but I think this cropped picture is in the Loursse (sp!) enclycopedia of Music. You should check the reference if you have this largely ubiquitous publication. Michael Stitt http://bachplucked.com/lutenist/ Emily Corrigan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks to everyone who pointed out the fourth lute player, and for the warm welcome. I am not a lute player, just working on a piece about the infamous John Johnson. As for the fourth lute player, he appears to be playing to a different crowd, and not in consort with the other three, so I maintain that these three still may be the three lutenists of Queen Elizabeth. Regardless of the number though, I'm still looking for the artist's name. Any other possible answers? Thanks for your help. Emily Corrigan Graduate Student Musicology University of Minnesota __ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ - Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing --
Re: Tabs, Staff and Bach superior to Weiss
Howard, I would not content that any composer who writes in staff notation will be any greater then a composer who writes in lute tablature. This criterion alone is nonsense. What I would suggest is that a composer with skill and ability would be limited in scope in expressing and exploring ideas using lute notation as a medium, rather then using staff notation.. This topic is exceptionally complex and difficult to put a strong argument together in a few paragraphs. I'll defer a full explanation while I can put my thoughts on this matter together in the near future. As for your point about pointing `to a piece by Weiss and explain how it would have been better if he'd written it in staff notation'. all I can say is that this is quite a challenge, but once again defer this until another time soon too. Many thanks for your reply. Will get back soon. Michael Stitt http://bachplucked.com/ http://weissplucked.com/ Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Michael Stitt at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I still content that writing in lute tablature did not server him to the fullest as a composer. I know this is hot point to make Hot? I think the word you're looking for is silly, or perhaps self-evidently fallacious. The notion that Bach's music is better than Weiss' because Bach wrote in staff notation and Weiss wrote in tablature might carry some weight if every one of the thousands of other composers who wrote in staff notation were indisputably superior to Weiss. But what the hey: Can you point to a piece by Weiss and explain how it would have been better if he'd written it in staff notation? HP - Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing --
Updates: Silvius Leopold Weiss
Dear Luteneers, Many thanks for your positive comments. I have made some amendments and will continue to update the site here. http://weissplucked.com/ Regards, Michael Stitt
Fretgut question
Dear Luteneers, I'm at astage where my fretgut on my 14 course swan neck are so frayed that buzzing is serious. I survived two years on my old supply but forgot what size I need. I have two requests. The first is short term. What diameter fretgut should I order? I recall 0.9, 0.8, 0.7 down the neck? Is this right? Second request is can someone suggest what gauge strings should I order for a fourteen course. Starting with 1st to 14th. A cut and paste of someone's order form would be appreciated. I have the standard J.C. Hoffmann 14 course German swan neck theorbo-lute. Many thanks in advance. Michael. - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --
Re: Facsimeles etc.
Interesting reading...umm.. Just to elaborate on Matanya's URL for free downloadable music, I have a download page at Bach Plucked! which includes other Bach and related music for free. See http://bachplucked.com/download.htm I have pondered on this subject and agree it raises many questions. I know that Frank Koonce has put a lot of time and effort on his Bach transcription of the lute suite music for classical guitar, including his second edition which I reviewed not so long ago. It includes new fingering for guitarists based on his many years as a university teacher of the classical guitar - time and experience as a teacher. Those interested in getting that professional knowledge will not find it in the free downloadable music, but in saying that I mean no disrespect for the efforts of these people too - just that his complete edition is so far reaching and holistic. Those many years of teaching and looking for easier and more effective ways to plays this technically difficult - but musically rewarding music - certainly is worthy of some return on a monetary basis. All Bach on guitar lovers have the opportunity to positively benefit from his work. I hope those who view his labour of love - will show respect. Regards, Michael Stitt Matanya Ophee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At 09:20 PM 12/2/2003 -0600, Michael Thames wrote: St. Michael the Liberator! I notice you don't give your guitars away. Don't you think the world should be given free access to such fine instruments? ;-) DR This is not an analogy, he MAKES them from scratch. RT Roman, thanks. I just didn't know what to say to someone like that. It's easy to grab at the straws RT supplies you with when your hypocrisy is staring you in the face. But Roman is wrong. The analogy is perfect. The issue is not the music, but the object you hold in your hand when you put it on the copy machine. That is a book, and it was made from scratch by one person who invested a great deal of time and money in creating it. And if it was not created by Albert, you would have had to find another such object made by someone else, like Frank Koonce, that contains the same image you want. BTW, regarding your intentions to make a guitar transcriptions: besides the many editions of this music on the market, by such editors/transcribers as Frederick Zigante, Josef Eotvoes, Jerry Willard, Tillmann Hopstock, to mention the better known ones, there is quite a bit of free, downloadable editions of this music available on the net. This is one remarkable example: http://icking-music-archive.org/scores/bach/bwv995/bwv995cg.pdf Clearly, there is nothing you can possibly contribute here that has not been done zillions of times before, in print and on the web. You are wasting your time. Try and come up with more creative ideas. I am sure brother Roman will be happy to supply with them. Matanya Ophee Editions Orphe'e, Inc., 1240 Clubview Blvd. N. Columbus, OH 43235-1226 Phone: 614-846-9517 Fax: 614-846-9794 mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.orphee.com - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --
Re: Gutsy Satoh CD
Hi Leonard, I too have this CD. I was given it asa present from my wife and only played it once or twice. Then following Ed's recommendation - especially the full gut stringing compoent I have been playing the recording very frequently indeed. My favourite is his recendition of the Prelude to the 2nd Suite which isvery nicely transcibed indeed. Best regards, Michael. Edward Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Leonard, it is: Three Solo Suites - JS Bach (it contains cello suites 1, 2, and 4) Channel Classics CCS 18798 You will like it. ed At 04:58 PM 11/25/03 -0500, Leonard Williams wrote: Recently someone mentioned a CD on which Toyohiko Satoh uses a completely gut-strung lute for Bach suites. Which of his CD's is this? I'd like to get a copy. Thanks! Regards, Leonard Williams [] (_) ~ The ultimate end and aim of music should only be the glorification of God and the recreation of the mind. Where these are not kept in view, there can be no real music - only infernal jingling and bellowing [Johann Sebastian Bach] - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --
Re: Instrument Archaeology [was: fretted ud ?]
Dear gran, I will acknowledge that I may have got the immigration date wrong, but my point was more your reference to ` last surviving descendants of the Neanderthaalers' which I very much doubt you got from the Encyclopædia Britannica. Why? Because it seems modern man does not derive from the Neanderthaals, (according to scientists) but rather considered to be from all on its own. ( a recent BBC documentary too) I sent this E-mail to you privately with goodwill intended, and not as a personal criticsm. Best regards, Michael. G.R. Crona [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Michael, I can see that you are mis-informed about these matters. I suggest you check info before making a statement that is incorrect! Here is what Encyclopædia Britannica says about the matter: Genetically Aborigines show considerable diversity but are quite distinct from groups outside Australia. They came originally from somewhere in Asia and have been in Australia for at least 40,000 years. (In 1990 a date of 60,000 years was suggested for a rock shelter in the Northern Territory, but the finding, based on the use of a recently developed technique called thermoluminescence, is still being evaluated.) The first settlement would have occurred during an era of lowered sea levels, when there was an almost continuous land bridge between Asia and Australia, but watercraft must have been used at some points. By 30,000 years ago most of the continent was occupied, including the southwest and southeast corners (Tasmania became an island when sea levels rose sometime between 13,500 and 8,000 years ago and isolated the Aborigines who lived there from the mainland) as well as the Highlands of the island of New Guinea. Archaeological evidence suggests that much of the interior of Australia was abandoned by Aborigines during a period of harsh climatic conditions between 25,000 and 15,000 years ago and reoccupied after conditions improved. But this is all very OT, and although fascinating, has little to do with lutes, however does not seem to spoil my theory. With Regards Göran - Original Message - From: Michael Stitt To: G.R. Crona Sent: 24. november 2003 23:00 Subject: Re: Instrument Archaeology [was: fretted ud ?] Göran It is generally accepted by anthropologists that the Australian Aborigines settled in Australia on about 2,500 years ago and came for SE Asia. The comment that they are `last surviving descendants of the Neanderthaalers' would not be appreciatted in this part of the world, though I recognise you did make mean to offend. Regards, Michael Stitt [Melbourne, Australia] G.R. Crona wrote: Dear Jon, you're wondering into deep OT-land here, bringing up the Didgeridoo. (If the Aborigenes of Australia are indeed (like I like to theorize) the last surviving descendants of the Neanderthaalers, their instruments might be the oldest ones we have. The musical bow, is the simplest of string instruments, using f.ex. the mouth as resonator. I agree w/ you about it probably being the idea that started all this string hoopla. What about a duet for lute and Didgeridoo anyone? Best Regards Göran - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy To: Lute List Sent: 24. november 2003 09:56 Subject: Re: fretted ud ? | Shakespeare said it. What's in a name? That which we call a rose/ By any | other name would smell as sweet; | | On the whole every instrument we know has been invented in every culture (I | think the Australian aborigine Digereedoo may be an exception). The wind | instruments start with the willow whistle (found in caves from 50,000 years | ago), or perhaps with the end blown flute. Whatever, early man discovered | that by splitting the wind of his breath he could make a sound in a hollow | tube - and then discovered that he could vary the sound by making holes in | the tube to change the effective length. And he discovered it independently | at different times and different places, as he did most other basic | instrumental principles. That split stream of air gives us the organ, the | penny whistle, the side blown flute, and etc. At some later point (before | Roman times if we are to believe the Hollywood extravaganzas with Roman | trumpets) he also discovered the way to make an air column in a tube make | sound using a mouthpiece and the compression of the lips to vary it. | | We need not spend much time on drums, even chimps beat on a hollow log. But | the skin covered ring of wood is almost universal to all cultures. | | Strings, now we come to the heart of the matter - or at least our hearts. It | is probably a good guess to say that the hunter's bow was developed before | the stringed instrument, after all food is yet more important than | aesthetics (although man doesn't live by bread alone). And again we come to | a weapon developed independently in most parts of the world. The archer may | have found a pleasure in the twang, and played with it by bending the bow | to change the tension while
Re: fretted ud ?
Dear Davide, Okay I take your point and appreciate your detailed reply. I'm impressed by the depth of your knowledge too. Sincere best regards, Michael Stitt drebuffa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Michael, I also have the CD by Ergin Kizilay: ud Taksimleri. Did you listen to it? of course it is an unfretted 'ud because there is no way to play turkish or arab music with frets. I was also surprised when I saw the photo of a fretted 'ud on the back cover, but look at the picture of the inside booklet: that's a traditional Othoman ud. I know Ergin Kizilay and many other 'ud players but none of them will ever play a fretted ud. Besides as you heve seen, the graphic quality of many CD's published by MEGA MUZIK in Unkapani is terrible. So if you have been in Istanbul you must have seen the new invented electronic 'ud without belly and ribs, electric saz and baglama with humbucker pick-ups and if look carefully in some shops you can find ( even if it's very rare,since I've seen 2 in many years of travelling and visiting all the lute makers and shop in every part of Istanbul)an 'ud with painted frets on the fingerboard .( also in Lebanon I have seen some) But all this means nothing. You can always find a stupid instrument maker in any country you go) It is sad but Turkey , as already happened to most of the arabian countries , will gradually loose it' s important historical tradition in lute making and one day ( not too far) they will all play electric guitars , keyboards, and maybe fretted idan. regards, Davide - Original Message - From: Michael Stitt To: drebuffa ; Cc: lute list Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 3:24 AM Subject: Re: fretted ud ? I'm looking at the back of a CD cover with the word Ud on the front and a picture of a Ud with clearly marked frets on it. I was in Turkey in JUne and saw many uds so I know what one looks like.. I expect the word `absolute' or never may need further investigation. Regards, Michael. drebuffa wrote: The turkish 'ud has never been fretted. same is for any idan from Morocco to Iraq. The only fretted lute they havein Turkey is the Lauta which is different and has a longer neck and different tuning. Only long neck lutes, like the tanbur, or the baglama , saz, and cura in Turkey as well as the Buzuq (in Siria and Lebanon) the Iranian tar, setar and many similar long necked lutes from Greece to Turkmenistan, have always been fretted. davide rebuffa - Original Message - From: Thomas Schall To: Michael Stitt Cc: lute list Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 7:23 PM Subject: Re: fretted ud: still exists - here Hi Michael, it seems as if the turkey has reimported the european lute (with frets) which was to a certain degree spread over the osmanian empire (and in india). I think they coexist together with the arabian form of the ud without frets and are slightly different built. Daniel would surely be able to tell more about it (I'm just starting to deal with this topic). As far as I know uds with frets are not common in northern africa. Best wishes Thomas Am Son, 2003-11-23 um 18.32 schrieb Michael Stitt: On Saturday my wife and I wandered into a Turkish music shop here in oz to buy an ud CD. I asked the Turkish born shop keeper for the best solo ud player of Turkey and he gave me a recording of Ergin Kizilay playing solo ud music. I don't know whether he is `the best' ud player of Turkey - but the performance and recording quality is fantastic -with the musical composition characterised by a Spanish tinge but in reality totally Arabic. But that was not the interesting part. On the back of the CD it shows the instrument and yes it has frets! I told my Lebanonese wife that this is unusual and her reply was `what do you mean unusual.all uds HAVE frets' I informed this was not the case and it seems that this generialisation does appear to be wrong. On my newly created ud page I have included a photograph of a ud player playing a unfretted instrument. It's a bit dark and probably not clear enough from the original to see a non-fretted instrument. The point IS not all uds are fretted. Here is the picture: http://bachplucked.com/ud/ Regards, Michael. - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now -- -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss -- - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now -- - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --
Re: fretted ud: still exists - correction
Correction from previous tranmitted meassage. I mean to say ` The point IS not all uds are UNfretted'. Here is the picture: http://bachplucked.com/ud/ Regards, Michael. - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --
Re: fretted ud: still exists - here
On Saturday my wife and I wandered into a Turkish music shop here in oz to buy an ud CD. I asked the Turkish born shop keeper for the best solo ud player of Turkey and he gave me a recording of Ergin Kizilay playing solo ud music. I dont know whether he is `the best ud player of Turkey - but the performance and recording quality is fantastic with the musical composition characterised by a Spanish tinge but in reality totally Arabic. But that was not the interesting part. On the back of the CD it shows the instrument and yes it has frets! I told my Lebanonese wife that this is unusual and her reply was `what do you mean unusual all uds HAVE frets I informed this was not the case and it seems that this generialisation does appear to be wrong. On my newly created ud page I have included a photograph of a ud player playing a unfretted instrument. Its a bit dark and probably not clear enough from the original to see a non-fretted instrument. The point IS not all uds are fretted. Here is the picture: http://bachplucked.com/ud/ Regards, Michael. - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --
Re: fretted ud ?
I'm looking at the back of a CD cover with the word Ud on the front and a picture of a Ud with clearly marked frets on it. I was in Turkey in JUne and saw many uds so I know what one looks like.. I expect the word `absolute' or never may need further investigation. Regards, Michael. drebuffa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The turkish 'ud has never been fretted. same is for any idan from Morocco to Iraq. The only fretted lute they havein Turkey is the Lauta which is different and has a longer neck and different tuning. Only long neck lutes, like the tanbur, or the baglama , saz, and cura in Turkey as well as the Buzuq (in Siria and Lebanon) the Iranian tar, setar and many similar long necked lutes from Greece to Turkmenistan, have always been fretted. davide rebuffa - Original Message - From: Thomas Schall To: Michael Stitt Cc: lute list Sent: Sunday, November 23, 2003 7:23 PM Subject: Re: fretted ud: still exists - here Hi Michael, it seems as if the turkey has reimported the european lute (with frets) which was to a certain degree spread over the osmanian empire (and in india). I think they coexist together with the arabian form of the ud without frets and are slightly different built. Daniel would surely be able to tell more about it (I'm just starting to deal with this topic). As far as I know uds with frets are not common in northern africa. Best wishes Thomas Am Son, 2003-11-23 um 18.32 schrieb Michael Stitt: On Saturday my wife and I wandered into a Turkish music shop here in oz to buy an ud CD. I asked the Turkish born shop keeper for the best solo ud player of Turkey and he gave me a recording of Ergin Kizilay playing solo ud music. I don't know whether he is `the best' ud player of Turkey - but the performance and recording quality is fantastic -with the musical composition characterised by a Spanish tinge but in reality totally Arabic. But that was not the interesting part. On the back of the CD it shows the instrument and yes it has frets! I told my Lebanonese wife that this is unusual and her reply was `what do you mean unusual.all uds HAVE frets' I informed this was not the case and it seems that this generialisation does appear to be wrong. On my newly created ud page I have included a photograph of a ud player playing a unfretted instrument. It's a bit dark and probably not clear enough from the original to see a non-fretted instrument. The point IS not all uds are fretted. Here is the picture: http://bachplucked.com/ud/ Regards, Michael. - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now -- -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss -- - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --
Re: fretted ud - full Arabic analysis - on web
Visit: http://bachplucked.com/ud/ Regards, Michael Stitt Mathias Rösel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jon Murphy schrieb: But I think that may be the limit, so far as I know there are no musical transcriptions available in Cuneiform. well, there are :) BTW, has the Arabic retained its form and vocabulary since the times of those pictures? yes, is has retained them. That's one of those many positively surprising features of Arabic Could there be changes in meaning of words as has happened in English (I can read Chaucer, but with difficulty). any normally trained and educated native speaker of Arabic will _without_ difficulty understand the qur'an which is by now 13 centuries of age (Chaucer is 7, I think). Since in Islam, Scripture is to be read aloud (or sung, rather) at service, immediate understanding greatly adds to the power of Islam (stuff for thinking). Some words have taken additional connotations like e.g. irhaab (political terrorism), but basic meanings of the verbal roots have not changed (r-h-b, fear, horror). -- Best wishes, Mathias Mathias Roesel, Grosze Annenstrasze 5, 28199 Bremen, Deutschland/ Germany, T/F +49 - 421 - 165 49 97, Fax +49 1805 060 334 480 67, E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --
Re: gut versus nylgut - 14 course - chewing gum sound?
Dear Thomas, Ed made a recommendation to listen to Toyohiko Satoh's recording of the cello suites 1,2,4 on BL with particular emphasis on the sound of the lower bass strings. I do have this recording and must confess I listened with more focus on the quality of sound, and - yes - was impressed. I have not changed my strings for two years! and they definitely need a change. I just fear that the fourteenth course will rattle? I believe you have produced a fined recording of Baroque lute music containing contemporary music. Well done! Best wishes, Michael. Thomas Schall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Ed and the rest of the list, I tried gut and confess it's the better choice regarding sound etc. I needed to get used to the feeling of gut on the fingers - I felt like glued on the strings the first time I tried to play them. The KO for gut and the reason to change back to nylgut was that the first chantarelle broke after three days of usage (the second lasted 4 days). Maybe it was bad luck - but gut is rather expensive and I didn't feel the sound would have so much so I decided to change back to nylgut. Anyway - I would give it another try if someone could recommend a better quality (I was recommended Kürschner's Luxline but asking for the price - 450 bucks for a set of strings - is was out of the question). Thomas Am Mit, 2003-11-19 um 01.34 schrieb Michael Stitt: Ed, I was referring primarily to that low Gg which resonants very low indeed. It just reminds me of stretched gum - as a kid - as it resonates. I will try it and will follow your recommendation. Many thanks. Michael. Edward Martin wrote: At 09:23 AM 11/18/03 -0800, Michael Stitt wrote: I can't imagine what gut strings would sound like on the fourteenth course - a low Gg. A bit like chuing gum!! Michael, you would be very surprised if you were to try it. I use gut to the 13th course, in low A, and it works very, very well. It is a much improved sound over overspun wounds, in my opinion. Chewing gum? What do you mean? Listen to Toyohiko Satoh's recent JS Bach recording on Channel Classics. He recorded the CD on an entirely gut strung baroque lute, and it does not sound like gum, in my opinion. The sound is crisp, clean, and beautiful. But seriously, those wound metal strings have so much power and would be very much missed if replaced with unstable gut. Hm. you seem to imply that wound metal strings are more powerful than gut. Do you mean louder? They are not louder. My gut basses are just as loud, if not louder than overspun strings. The metal wound strings have a slower response, and a long sustain, which is not desirable, in my opinion. The gut is as loud, is faster in sound, but it has a rapid decay, which I consider an asset. And, they are certainly beautiful sounding. I agree with your statement that the wound metal strings would be missed if replaced with unstable gut. But, why not replace them with stable gut? If you think that all gut is unstable, that is not true. The quality of available gut has greatly improved; I have performed for the past 7 to 8 years in gut, and have not had tuning trouble. Edward Martin - Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard -- -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss -- - Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --
Re: fretted ud
My wife is willing to translate the Classical Arabic, assuming it isn't Persian, but we keep getting `cannot find the server' Lets hope this is a temporary problem.. Michael Stitt David Van Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Roman, Do you mean this picture which I've just copied from your page?: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk/Ud.htm As you see I also have a much bigger version which is among the earliest images I collected. Alas in those days I didn't take much care over keeping notes on the source. But if that's the image you mean, I might be able to search for where I found it. Probably in the local university library. Or maybe an early issue of Early Music. I too would be interested in a translation of the arabic script along the strings and as a title to the illustration. As you say it is an interesting confirmation of Farmer's thesis that the early 'Ud was fretted. Best wishes, David At 9:15 PM -0500 18/11/03, Roman Turovsky wrote: Today my eye has caught a CD by an Azerbajdzhani composer Frangi Ali-Zade called Crossings. She does not appear to be related to our own arabe-manquÈ Daniel Franke-Ferengizade. The cover is illustrated with what appears to be a collage with a clipping of an antique illumination of a FRETTED ud with two rosettes in the form of the Star of David, situated crosswise the axis of the body, above and below the strings. There is writing UNDER the strings, apparently in Arabic script. I have found a SMALL jpg picture and inserted it into the text in the page 2, paragraph 4 at http://www.polyhymnion.org/torban Can anyone identify the source of this illumination??? RT __ Roman M. Turovsky http://turovsky.org http://polyhymnion.org -- The Smokehouse, 6 Whitwell Road, Norwich, NR1 4HB England. Telephone: + 44 (0)1603 629899 Website: http://www.vanedwards.co.uk - Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now --
Re: Historical cost of lutes - Mattheson Baron.
My quoted source was not quite right, it is Mattheson who asserted: In addition, there is trouble with bad or spliced strings, especially the charantarelle, and trouble with frets and tuning pegs, so that I have had it heard that it costs as much in Paris to keep a lute as a horse. Baron rebutted this remark saying for a year with two Thalers' worth of feed, [they] would very shortly look like one of the seven scrawny, emaciated cows that the pharaoh saw in his dream. [ Baron Study,p.27 via Per Kjetil Farstad thesis German Galant Lute Music, 2000.] Michael Stitt http://bachplucked.com/lutenist/ Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm afraid I don't know about Baron, and don't have a copy of his book to check at home. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Michael Stitt To: Marcus Merrin Cc: Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 4:19 AM Subject: Re: Historical cost of lutes. Marcus, I think this quote actually derives from Baron's treatise on the lute and lute playing, and referred to the cost of a then Baroque lute. Regards, Michael Stitt http://bachplucked.com/ Marcus Merrin wrote: I think Thomas Mace wrote that just for the _upkeep_ of a lute a man must expect to pay as much as for a horse. He goes on to tell you how to remove the belly yourself and thus completely ruin the thing. (Lute, not horse I suppose). A blacksmith might earn maybe 20 pence on a busy day, and stabling for a horse at an inn was about 1-2 pence. I conclude that a blacksmith couldn't keep a lute unless he made his own strings. All figures are as accurate as most Govornment fiscal projections :-) Marcus Herbert Ward wrote: How much did a lute cost 1500-1650, in terms of months of salary? I'm thinking of skilled or low-end professional labor (say, professor, lawyer, or agricultural manager). Today, a good lute runs, say, from 0.5 - 1.0 months' salary (depending, of course, on both salary level and lute cost). - Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --
Re: Historical cost of lutes - Matheson Baron.
My quoted source was not quite right, it is Mattheson who asserted: In addition, there is trouble with bad or spliced strings, especially the charantarelle, and trouble with frets and tuning pegs, so that I have had it heard that it costs as much in Paris to keep a lute as a horse. Baron rebutted this remark saying for a year with two Thalers' worth of feed, [they] would very shortly look like one of the seven scrawny, emaciated cows that the pharaoh saw in his dream. [ Baron Study,p.27 via Per Kjetil Farstad thesis German Galant Lute Music, 2000.] Michael Stitt http://bachplucked.com/lutenist/ Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm afraid I don't know about Baron, and don't have a copy of his book to check at home. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. - Original Message - From: Michael Stitt To: Marcus Merrin Cc: Sent: Friday, November 14, 2003 4:19 AM Subject: Re: Historical cost of lutes. Marcus, I think this quote actually derives from Baron's treatise on the lute and lute playing, and referred to the cost of a then Baroque lute. Regards, Michael Stitt http://bachplucked.com/ Marcus Merrin wrote: I think Thomas Mace wrote that just for the _upkeep_ of a lute a man must expect to pay as much as for a horse. He goes on to tell you how to remove the belly yourself and thus completely ruin the thing. (Lute, not horse I suppose). A blacksmith might earn maybe 20 pence on a busy day, and stabling for a horse at an inn was about 1-2 pence. I conclude that a blacksmith couldn't keep a lute unless he made his own strings. All figures are as accurate as most Govornment fiscal projections :-) Marcus Herbert Ward wrote: How much did a lute cost 1500-1650, in terms of months of salary? I'm thinking of skilled or low-end professional labor (say, professor, lawyer, or agricultural manager). Today, a good lute runs, say, from 0.5 - 1.0 months' salary (depending, of course, on both salary level and lute cost). - Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --
Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies...Rob Spencer
Dear all, I haven't been following this thread in detail, however, I'm reminded of my first introduction to Dowland and the lute - a recording with this song on it - track one if I recall. It was LP with Robert Spencer though I cannot remember the tenor's name. Love to know whether it has been re-issued on CD. It was a beautiful recording... Best regards to all. Michael. bill sterling [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This old man, he played one, he played knick-knack on my thumb With a knick-knack patty whack, give a dog a bone This old man came rolling home - Original Message - From: Caroline Usher To: Sent: Tuesday, November 11, 2003 7:06 AM Subject: Re: Fine Nacks for Ladies At 08:51 AM 11/11/2003 -0500, you wrote: So then the nacks could be a metaphor for the kind of breathlessness experienced in a passionate encounter. No need to reach so far: 3. concr. An ingenious contrivance; a toy, trinket, trifle, KNIC K-KNACK. ? Obs. 1540 HEYWOOD Four P.P. in Hazl. Dodsley I. 349 Needles, thread, thimble, shears, and all such knacks. 1596 SHAKES. Tam. Shr. IV. iii. 67 Why 'tis a cockle or a walnut-shell, A knacke, a toy, a tricke, a babies cap: Away with it. a1677 BARROW Serm. (1683) II. vii. 104 Springs, and wheels, and such mechanick knacks. 1715 tr. C'tess D'Aunoy's Wks. 557 A Thousand pretty Knacks..which she made with Fish-Bones and Shells, with Reeds and Rushes. 1825 LAMB Elia Ser. II. Superannuated Man, All the glittering and endless succession of knacks and gew~gaws. 1863 COWDEN CLARKE Shaks. Char. xiv. 360 The pedlar's knacks and gaudy trash [Wint. T. IV. iv.] absorb Mopsa's whole gloating vision. Check the third verse of the song, which lists some of the pedlar's kncks: pins, points, laces and gloves. * Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155 Box 91000 -- - Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --
Ziryab - the Weissian figure of Cordoba
Hello all I am interested in finding out more about the legendary Ziryab the musician, whose real name was Abdul-Hasan Ali ibn Nafi. I understand that Ziryab was the man who first introduced the lute to Spain [Cordova]. As well as this he was an influential composer and was also famous for his fashion design and gastronomical skills too! A favourite of the Abbasid Caliph Harun ar-Rashid he is accredited with al kindi, for the addition of the fifth bass string to the lute, and substituting the wooden plectrum with a the eagles pen. I can give a little more biographical detail of the man. Known as Ziryab, he was born in Iraqi in 789 AD and nicknamed Ziryab because of his melodious voice and his dark complexion and features which people compared with a singing bird called a merit with its black plumage. He was a gifted pupil of Ishaq al-Mawsili, a renown musician in Baghdad and settled in Cordoba in 822 which was under the Caliph of Abrdur Rahman II. He became a type of Weissian figure of the city being the court entertainer with a monthly salary of 200 golden dinars a sum, [which probably has some comparison with the equalvalent status of Weiss in salary Dresden - I suspect]. He established the first conservatory in the world, which included teaching harmony and composition which continued well beyond his lifetime. As a lute player he played with a special type of gut string. It is said: Ziryab fascinated the proud court of Abderraman II, in C6rdoba, by playing the strings of lion cub gut which were used in his lute My questions are: do we have any idea of the type and harmonic structure of compositions written by this man? I suspect that there is none and all we can go by is his reputation which seems to have influenced middle-eastern musicians, particularly oud players. Do we have any evidence of the type of musical composition - harmonic structure he conceived on the lute, beyond the physical innovation to the instrument the fifth string? Many thanks in advance, Michael Stitt http://bachplucked.com/ - Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard --
Re: Ziryab - the Weissian figure of Cordoba
Gary, All this is great stuff and I really appreciate the bibliography at the end. Many thanks. Your questions about the Ud as a living instrument is exactly my interest at the moment. While in Turkey I bought a Sarz (sp?) and now kick myself that I did not buy a method which was on sale including one for ud. The question I want to have answered one day is: can we fuse Arabic and Western musical traditions to create something new on the lute, without it being being gimacky and artificial, so as to bring to life again a living 21st century music beyond tradtional art music? I'm hoping one day it might be possible on my 14 course [Baroque without removing the frets. Good luck with your musicology work. It sounds very interesting indeed. Regards, Michael Stitt http://bachplucked.com/lutenist/ archlute [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Michael, At the risk of offending those who invest themselves in this very rich musical repertoire, apologies in advance. I'm writing a paper on this very topic for one of my ethnomusicology seminars at the moment. I am interested in finding out more about the legendary Ziryab the musician, whose real name was Abdul-Hasan Ali ibn Nafi. I understand that Ziryab was the man who first introduced the lute to Spain [Cordova]. As well as this he was an influential composer and was also famous for his fashion design and gastronomical skills too! My questions are: do we have any idea of the type and harmonic structure of compositions written by this man? I suspect that there is none and all we can go by is his reputation which seems to have influenced middle-eastern musicians, particularly oud players. Do we have any evidence of the type of musical composition - harmonic structure he conceived on the lute, beyond the physical innovation to the instrument ñ the fifth string? From what I understand in the English language sources, harmony (as the western world defines the term) seems not to have existed other than in a theoretical model. There are many sources at the time that rely on Greek views of the monochord, however. From what I've been able to gather, the oud seems to be a heterophonic accompaniment instrument for the voice. I'm sure that solo music was played on the instrument, yet the preoccupation with taqasim (the scales used by the players) theoretical permutations seems to imply that vertical sonorities were not used. [It's an interesting conundrum - they have plectrums but it seems as if they never strummed?] I would suggest that all lutenists investigate this instrument and it's repertoire. The oud is clearly a *living* tradition with a myriad of regional permutations that exist even today. In addition to interesting historical questions such as: when did the modern oud remove the frets that it had in the middle ages?, which system of division of the monochord was used in which locale?, etc., the instrument brings us closer to the lute because we can see a living tradition in action which, IMHO, provides a context for our own performance practice and sociological investigations. Further, I am just amazed at the level of musical thought occurring in Arab countries during the West's Medieval Era. There are many musical treatises (some translated in part to english) that have changed my view of the western musical tradition. It seems the west was more influenced by this strand of musical theory that Grout (and I dare say Grove) could ever begin to mention. It's been a very enlightening investigation to say the least. I'm definetly not an expert on this by any means, just wanted to share what I have found in a very short time. Hope this helps. Gary Beckman PS Here are a few english sources that may help: PPS The first book has a few facsimiles of oud tablature from the 13th century. It's beautiful to look at and provides a foil to a few ideas about the lute that we may all share. El-Mallah, Issam. Arab Music and Musical Notation. Tutzing: Hans Schneider, 1997. El-Shawan, Salwa. ³Traditional Arab ensembles in Egypt since 1967: ³The Continuity of Tradition within a Contemporary Framework?², Ethnomusicology, 1984, 271-287. Farmer, H. G. A History of Arabian Music. London: Luzac Co., 1929. Racy, Ali Jihad. Making Music in the Arab World : The Culture and Artistry of Tarab. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 2003. Sawa, George. ³The Survival of Some Aspects of Medieval Peformance Practice², Ethnomusicology, vol. 15, no. 1, 1981, 73-86. Shedadi, Fadlou. Philosophies of Music in Medieval Islam. Leiden: E. J. Brill, 1995. Shiloah, Amnon. ³The Epistle on Music of the Ikhwan al-Safa², in The Dimension of Music in Islamic and Jewish Culture. Ashgate: Brookfield, Vt., 1993, 3-73. ___. ³The Ud and the Origin of Music², in The Dimension of Music in Islamic and Jewish Culture. Ashgate: Brookfield, Vt., 1993, 395-407. ___. The Dimension of Music in Islamic and Jewish Culture. Ashgate
