[LUTE] Re: Farre from triumphing court - text question
Faint means to make less or diminish, or miss the mark, or fall short. It has a resonance with the older meaning of feindre, which has a sense of avoiding one's duty, and is also a pun on the other meaning of faint, which is to fade, or die away. These themes are used again and again in Dowland, as in His Golden Locks, to show a short of chivalrous vanitas. The themes of Farre from triumphing court and His Golden Locks are closely related. dt At 07:22 AM 4/5/2011, you wrote: A Musicall Banquet, song VIII, third stanza has: Ravisht with ioy so grac't by such a Saint, He quite forgat his Cell and selfe denaid, He thought it shame in thankfulnesse to faint, Debts due to Princes must de duely paid: Nothing so hatefull to a noble minde, As finding kindnesse for to prove unkinde. Why 'faint' in the third line? Just because it rhymes with 'Saint' in the first line? Is there another meaning apart from the swooning, indeed not the most polite thing to do in Royal presence? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Farre from triumphing court - text question
Hi David, In my opinion here to faint means to fail because of weakness. Hope this helps, Cheers! Lex Op 5 apr 2011, om 16:22 heeft David van Ooijen het volgende geschreven: A Musicall Banquet, song VIII, third stanza has: Ravisht with ioy so grac't by such a Saint, He quite forgat his Cell and selfe denaid, He thought it shame in thankfulnesse to faint, Debts due to Princes must de duely paid: Nothing so hatefull to a noble minde, As finding kindnesse for to prove unkinde. Why 'faint' in the third line? Just because it rhymes with 'Saint' in the first line? Is there another meaning apart from the swooning, indeed not the most polite thing to do in Royal presence? David -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Farre from triumphing court - text question
I haven't considered this in detail, but you might think about feint, as in a kind of deceiving. Presumably the denaid is what we would spell denied, by the way. Martin On 05/04/2011 15:22, David van Ooijen wrote: A Musicall Banquet, song VIII, third stanza has: Ravisht with ioy so grac't by such a Saint, He quite forgat his Cell and selfe denaid, He thought it shame in thankfulnesse to faint, Debts due to Princes must de duely paid: Nothing so hatefull to a noble minde, As finding kindnesse for to prove unkinde. Why 'faint' in the third line? Just because it rhymes with 'Saint' in the first line? Is there another meaning apart from the swooning, indeed not the most polite thing to do in Royal presence? David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Farre from triumphing court - text question
The Oxford English Dictionary includes to fall short (It fainteth or straieth from the marke, if you aime further off), also to lose heart, be depressed, from about this time period. The sense here seems to be that he thought he should not be half-hearted in his gratitude. On Apr 5, 2011, at 8:48 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: He thought it shame in thankfulnesse to faint, Debts due to Princes must de duely paid: To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Farre from triumphing court - text question
Faint: possibly past tense of feign - spelt in a non-standardized way? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Farre from triumphing court - text question
Here is the paraphrased verse by David Hill from a pdf on this page: [1]http://www.johndowland.co.uk/songs.htm 3 Ravished with joy at being so honoured by such a aEUR~saint', He quite forgot his aEUR~cell' and disowned his retired state. He considered that it would be shameful to faint in gratitude, For debts that are due to royalty must be duly paid. There can be nothing so hateful to a noble mind As discovering that an act of kindness has been unkindly dismissed. __ From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, April 5, 2011 11:22:02 AM Subject: [LUTE] Farre from triumphing court - text question A Musicall Banquet, song VIII, third stanza has: Ravisht with ioy so grac't by such a Saint, He quite forgat his Cell and selfe denaid, He thought it shame in thankfulnesse to faint, Debts due to Princes must de duely paid: Nothing so hatefull to a noble minde, As finding kindnesse for to prove unkinde. Why 'faint' in the third line? Just because it rhymes with 'Saint' in the first line? Is there another meaning apart from the swooning, indeed not the most polite thing to do in Royal presence? David -- *** David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.johndowland.co.uk/songs.htm 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Farre from triumphing court - text question
Thank you, Howard and all. To 'fall short' seems to fit the bill! David On 5 April 2011 19:05, howard posner howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: The Oxford English Dictionary includes to fall short (It fainteth or straieth from the marke, if you aime further off), also to lose heart, be depressed, from about this time period. The sense here seems to be that he thought he should not be half-hearted in his gratitude. On Apr 5, 2011, at 8:48 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: He thought it shame in thankfulnesse to faint, Debts due to Princes must de duely paid: To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl ***
[LUTE] Re: Farre from triumphing court - text question
I'm not sure why it garbled the uppercase letters, so I'll try again. 3 Ravisht with ioy so grac't by such a Saint, He quite forgat his Cell and selfe denaid, He thought it shame in thankfulnesse to faint, Debts due to Princes must be duly paid : Nothing so hatefull to a noble minde, As finding kindnesse for to prove unkinde. __ From: mc41mc mc4...@yahoo.com To: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com; lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, April 5, 2011 4:59:21 PM Subject: Re: [LUTE] Farre from triumphing court - text question Here is the paraphrased verse by David Hill from a pdf on this page: [1]http://www.johndowland.co.uk/songs.htm 3 Ravished with joy at being so honoured by such a aEUR~saint', He quite forgot his aEUR~cell' and disowned his retired state. He considered that it would be shameful to faint in gratitude, For debts that are due to royalty must be duly paid. There can be nothing so hateful to a noble mind As discovering that an act of kindness has been unkindly dismissed. __ From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, April 5, 2011 11:22:02 AM Subject: [LUTE] Farre from triumphing court - text question A Musicall Banquet, song VIII, third stanza has: Ravisht with ioy so grac't by such a Saint, He quite forgat his Cell and selfe denaid, He thought it shame in thankfulnesse to faint, Debts due to Princes must de duely paid: Nothing so hatefull to a noble minde, As finding kindnesse for to prove unkinde. Why 'faint' in the third line? Just because it rhymes with 'Saint' in the first line? Is there another meaning apart from the swooning, indeed not the most polite thing to do in Royal presence? David -- *** David van Ooijen [2]davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.johndowland.co.uk/songs.htm 2. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Farre from triumphing court - text question
So sorry, everyone, I resent the original. There is a bunch of commotion going on around me, and I can hardly think.. Check the pdf file. Sorry for the mess. __ From: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, April 5, 2011 5:02:27 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Farre from triumphing court - text question Thank you, Howard and all. To 'fall short' seems to fit the bill! David On 5 April 2011 19:05, howard posner [1]howardpos...@ca.rr.com wrote: The Oxford English Dictionary includes to fall short (It fainteth or straieth from the marke, if you aime further off), also to lose heart, be depressed, from about this time period. The sense here seems to be that he thought he should not be half-hearted in his gratitude. On Apr 5, 2011, at 8:48 AM, Martin Shepherd wrote: He thought it shame in thankfulnesse to faint, Debts due to Princes must de duely paid: To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- *** David van Ooijen [3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com www.davidvanooijen.nl *** -- References 1. mailto:howardpos...@ca.rr.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com
[LUTE] Re: Farre from triumphing court - text question
I would suggest that you read faint as a version of feint--to pretend-- So--it would be shameful to pretend to be thankful--especially since any debt (gratitude) to power must be paid honestly (duly)--and (the poem continues) this is important because a noble (upright, honest) mind would hate to find out that a gracious act has been met with false thanks (feigned gratitude). Tricky stuff. jeff __ From: mc41mc mc4...@yahoo.com To: David van Ooijen davidvanooi...@gmail.com; lutelist Net Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, April 5, 2011 2:59:21 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Farre from triumphing court - text question Here is the paraphrased verse by David Hill from a pdf on this page: [1]http://www.johndowland.co.uk/songs.htm 3 Ravished with joy at being so honoured by such a aEUR~saint', He quite forgot his aEUR~cell' and disowned his retired state. He considered that it would be shameful to faint in gratitude, For debts that are due to royalty must be duly paid. There can be nothing so hateful to a noble mind As discovering that an act of kindness has been unkindly dismissed. __ From: David van Ooijen [1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com To: lutelist Net [2]Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Tue, April 5, 2011 11:22:02 AM Subject: [LUTE] Farre from triumphing court - text question A Musicall Banquet, song VIII, third stanza has: Ravisht with ioy so grac't by such a Saint, He quite forgat his Cell and selfe denaid, He thought it shame in thankfulnesse to faint, Debts due to Princes must de duely paid: Nothing so hatefull to a noble minde, As finding kindnesse for to prove unkinde. Why 'faint' in the third line? Just because it rhymes with 'Saint' in the first line? Is there another meaning apart from the swooning, indeed not the most polite thing to do in Royal presence? David -- *** David van Ooijen [2][3]davidvanooi...@gmail.com [4]www.davidvanooijen.nl *** To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5]http://www.johndowland.co.uk/songs.htm 2. mailto:[6]davidvanooi...@gmail.com 3. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. mailto:Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 4. http://www.davidvanooijen.nl/ 5. http://www.johndowland.co.uk/songs.htm 6. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
