[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes - A HIP score
The accompaniment for all the lute songs in Bataille's prints as from 1608 were conceived for the 10c theorboed lute with renaissance tuning in A. Mersenne explained the instrument in 1636, as explored by Ingo Negwer in his thesis in German (Laute und Theorbe in Marin Mersennes Harmonie universelle, Frankfurt, 2000). The rendering in staff notation is not a transposition. The style of the accompaniment of 1608 considerably differs from the style of the courante in Lord Herbert's lute book, which was much later written in the broken style. Broken does not refer, in this case, to the breaking of the parts but to the breaking of the melody. That is the characteristic trait of that style. In his arrangement, Ron has transposed the chanson down a fifth, but not the accompaniment. Instead, he has written a new accompaniment along the lines of the solo courante. And that is remarkable, indeed, for at least two reasons. First, he could easily have transposed the accompaniment just as well, putting basses up an octave again where necessary. He didn't do that, dismissing the existing accompaniment for a new one that he wrote on his own. All is well that ends well, one might say. But second, the much later courante on the chanson was conceived in the broken style. That style was used in solo music and not in accompaniment, precisely because the melody itself is broken rhythmically. That way, the melody is distinctly and audibly highlighted. It may be an interesting task to study both Ron's and Bataille's accompaniments and find out where they differ and why and to which effect. Mathias -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] Im Auftrag von Matthew Daillie Gesendet: Samstag, 15. Oktober 2016 21:11 An: Roman Turovsky; Ron Andrico; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes - A HIP score On 15/10/2016 21:05, Roman Turovsky wrote: > little squeaky lutes in A are very likely a modern anachronism, > considering that the majority of voices work much better with larger > lutes tuned a whole 3rd lower - to E, or even D. > RT One does not need to use a 'little squeaky lute in a' to accompany these airs de cour (although I have had the pleasure of playing two 10-courses in a'415 that were anything but squeaky). One should obviously use whatever lute suits the singer. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes - A HIP score
He sings duets with Putin, so.. RT On 10/15/2016 4:15 PM, John Mardinly wrote: If so, obviously not one Trump would molestâ¦.. On Oct 15, 2016, at 12:47 PM, Matthew Daillie <[1]dail...@club-internet.fr> wrote: Did she have a moustache? On 15/10/2016 21:46, Roman Turovsky wrote: the one I worked with - was happy in D. RT On 10/15/2016 3:40 PM, Matthew Daillie wrote: On 15/10/2016 21:38, Roman Turovsky wrote: I've been asked the "couldn't we do it lower in E?" question too many times. RT You should try sopranos. The question is always: 'don't you have a lute with a higher pitch?' Matthew To get on or off this list see list information at [2]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth .edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=CwIC-g=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Eji z41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=Jb0 N2NvWndrnnn4LpJesKB8pJYHhHIz_1rmUEyR-kpU=AWMcDkzFL2_TUNmlKFw_62NOYPQp IyrRStqg_s42gjg= A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. Retired Principal Materials Nanoanalysis Engineer EMail: [3]john.mardi...@asu.edu Cell: [4]408-921-3253 (does not work in TEM labs) But donât call the labâ¦.I wonât be there! -- References 1. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr 2. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=CwIC-g=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=Jb0N2NvWndrnnn4LpJesKB8pJYHhHIz_1rmUEyR-kpU=AWMcDkzFL2_TUNmlKFw_62NOYPQpIyrRStqg_s42gjg= 3. mailto:john.mardi...@asu.edu 4. tel:408-921-3253
[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes - A HIP score
what are you implyin'? RT On 10/15/2016 3:47 PM, Matthew Daillie wrote: Did she have a moustache? On 15/10/2016 21:46, Roman Turovsky wrote: the one I worked with - was happy in D. RT On 10/15/2016 3:40 PM, Matthew Daillie wrote: On 15/10/2016 21:38, Roman Turovsky wrote: I've been asked the "couldn't we do it lower in E?" question too many times. RT You should try sopranos. The question is always: 'don't you have a lute with a higher pitch?' Matthew To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes - A HIP score
If so, obviously not one Trump would molestâ¦.. On Oct 15, 2016, at 12:47 PM, Matthew Daillie <[1]dail...@club-internet.fr> wrote: Did she have a moustache? On 15/10/2016 21:46, Roman Turovsky wrote: the one I worked with - was happy in D. RT On 10/15/2016 3:40 PM, Matthew Daillie wrote: On 15/10/2016 21:38, Roman Turovsky wrote: I've been asked the "couldn't we do it lower in E?" question too many times. RT You should try sopranos. The question is always: 'don't you have a lute with a higher pitch?' Matthew To get on or off this list see list information at [2]https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth .edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=CwIC-g=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Eji z41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=Jb0 N2NvWndrnnn4LpJesKB8pJYHhHIz_1rmUEyR-kpU=AWMcDkzFL2_TUNmlKFw_62NOYPQp IyrRStqg_s42gjg= A. John Mardinly, Ph.D., P.E. Retired Principal Materials Nanoanalysis Engineer EMail: [3]john.mardi...@asu.edu Cell: [4]408-921-3253 (does not work in TEM labs) But donât call the labâ¦.I wonât be there! -- References 1. mailto:dail...@club-internet.fr 2. https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.cs.dartmouth.edu_-7Ewbc_lute-2Dadmin_index.html=CwIC-g=AGbYxfJbXK67KfXyGqyv2Ejiz41FqQuZFk4A-1IxfAU=MAuGvnWTcVQkxORgQD0QS50ZicPM3Nw-61ygSK-LNEQ=Jb0N2NvWndrnnn4LpJesKB8pJYHhHIz_1rmUEyR-kpU=AWMcDkzFL2_TUNmlKFw_62NOYPQpIyrRStqg_s42gjg= 3. mailto:john.mardi...@asu.edu 4. tel:408-921-3253
[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes - A HIP score
Did she have a moustache? On 15/10/2016 21:46, Roman Turovsky wrote: the one I worked with - was happy in D. RT On 10/15/2016 3:40 PM, Matthew Daillie wrote: On 15/10/2016 21:38, Roman Turovsky wrote: I've been asked the "couldn't we do it lower in E?" question too many times. RT You should try sopranos. The question is always: 'don't you have a lute with a higher pitch?' Matthew To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes - A HIP score
the one I worked with - was happy in D. RT On 10/15/2016 3:40 PM, Matthew Daillie wrote: On 15/10/2016 21:38, Roman Turovsky wrote: I've been asked the "couldn't we do it lower in E?" question too many times. RT You should try sopranos. The question is always: 'don't you have a lute with a higher pitch?' Matthew To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes - A HIP score
On 15/10/2016 21:38, Roman Turovsky wrote: I've been asked the "couldn't we do it lower in E?" question too many times. RT You should try sopranos. The question is always: 'don't you have a lute with a higher pitch?' Matthew To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes - A HIP score
I've been asked the "couldn't we do it lower in E?" question too many times. RT On 10/15/2016 3:10 PM, Matthew Daillie wrote: On 15/10/2016 21:05, Roman Turovsky wrote: little squeaky lutes in A are very likely a modern anachronism, considering that the majority of voices work much better with larger lutes tuned a whole 3rd lower - to E, or even D. RT One does not need to use a 'little squeaky lute in a' to accompany these airs de cour (although I have had the pleasure of playing two 10-courses in a'415 that were anything but squeaky). One should obviously use whatever lute suits the singer. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes - A HIP score
On 15/10/2016 21:05, Roman Turovsky wrote: little squeaky lutes in A are very likely a modern anachronism, considering that the majority of voices work much better with larger lutes tuned a whole 3rd lower - to E, or even D. RT One does not need to use a 'little squeaky lute in a' to accompany these airs de cour (although I have had the pleasure of playing two 10-courses in a'415 that were anything but squeaky). One should obviously use whatever lute suits the singer. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes - A HIP score
little squeaky lutes in A are very likely a modern anachronism, considering that the majority of voices work much better with larger lutes tuned a whole 3rd lower - to E, or even D. RT On 10/15/2016 2:55 PM, Matthew Daillie wrote: On 15/10/2016 19:23, Ron Andrico wrote: Matthew: It's nice to know you keep up with our blog, although I expect that you would direct your commentary there instead of this forum. We always appreciate thoughtful and respectful commentary. In your comment, you skew the point to support the idea that the lute was presumed to be tuned in A. Granted, historical reference pitches have never been hard and fast, and there is absolutely no reason to presume that A=440 or A=415 had anything to do with historical pitch, particularly on lutes and other fretted or unfretted stringed instruments. Perhaps an excess of bile prompts your other commentary, which again is a stretch just to make your points. While it is a matter of taste, high G is not a particularly pleasant sound to hear, particularly in music meant for the chamber. Read some of the source material on vocal range and production from the era and get back to me on this after you have informed yourself. We chose the title "Airs de Court" for our 2005 CD, Divine Amarillis because that is the term Besard used in his 1603 print, which preceded Bataille's versions published by Ballard. True, the term was applied earlier in LeRoy's book, but Besard was a pioneer in the genre. Now, if you have anything else you'd like to get off your chest, you are welcome to comment on our blog rather than this forum. RA Ron, As you publicise your blog entry every single Saturday on this forum, it only seems logical to respond on the forum. I can assure you that I know numerous singers who can easily render G with ease, elegance and no shortage of emotion, all the more so if the instrument is in G and at a'415. My 'court' comment was tongue in cheek but thank you for the erudite response. Maybe if you spent less time criticising others and setting yourself up as an example to follow, I would be less keen to set the record straight. Matthew To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes - A HIP score
On 15/10/2016 19:23, Ron Andrico wrote: Matthew: It's nice to know you keep up with our blog, although I expect that you would direct your commentary there instead of this forum. We always appreciate thoughtful and respectful commentary. In your comment, you skew the point to support the idea that the lute was presumed to be tuned in A. Granted, historical reference pitches have never been hard and fast, and there is absolutely no reason to presume that A=440 or A=415 had anything to do with historical pitch, particularly on lutes and other fretted or unfretted stringed instruments. Perhaps an excess of bile prompts your other commentary, which again is a stretch just to make your points. While it is a matter of taste, high G is not a particularly pleasant sound to hear, particularly in music meant for the chamber. Read some of the source material on vocal range and production from the era and get back to me on this after you have informed yourself. We chose the title "Airs de Court" for our 2005 CD, Divine Amarillis because that is the term Besard used in his 1603 print, which preceded Bataille's versions published by Ballard. True, the term was applied earlier in LeRoy's book, but Besard was a pioneer in the genre. Now, if you have anything else you'd like to get off your chest, you are welcome to comment on our blog rather than this forum. RA Ron, As you publicise your blog entry every single Saturday on this forum, it only seems logical to respond on the forum. I can assure you that I know numerous singers who can easily render G with ease, elegance and no shortage of emotion, all the more so if the instrument is in G and at a'415. My 'court' comment was tongue in cheek but thank you for the erudite response. Maybe if you spent less time criticising others and setting yourself up as an example to follow, I would be less keen to set the record straight. Matthew To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes - A HIP score
Ron, In the 'Saturday morning quote' you put on line today and publicised (as usual) on this forum, you speak of historically informed performance in relation to an Air de cour by Guédron entitled 'Bien qu'un cruel martire'. You claim that 'When the modern editor André Verchaly published his collection of airs, he transposed the keyboard transcription of the lute part to fit the key of the voice part in Batailleâs original print.' This is not true at all. The rendition in staff notation (why do you automatically think 'keyboard' when you see real notes rather than tablature?) is exactly what Bataille published in his 'Airs de differents autheurs'. If you look closely at the tablature, the first note for the singer is given before the time signature. In the piece you refer to, the note indicated is an open fourth course. If one assumes a lute at the nominal pitch of a', then the first note for the singer is a G, which is exactly what Verchaly has indicated, identical to Bataille's printed Air and lute. Your assumption of 'a lute tuned in our modern standard of âGâ' is fallacious. These airs would have been accompanied by lutes of various pitches to fit the singing voice. The top note in the piece is a G5, hardly 'stratospheric' or 'dog-whistle range' as you call it. We do not know what the accepted pitch was at the time (if indeed there was a standard pitch) but it is very likely that it would have been lower than modern pitch of a' at 440. This music is commonly played at a' 415 today. Why do you refer to 'Airs de Court' on your CD rather than 'Airs de cour' ? Is there some kind of connection with a tennis match ? Matthew On 15/10/2016 16:26, Ron Andrico wrote: We have posted our Saturday morning quote and offer a HIP score. [1][1]http://wp.me/p15OyV-3wS Ron & Donna -- References 1. [2]http://wp.me/p15OyV-3wS -- References 1. http://wp.me/p15OyV-3wS 2. http://wp.me/p15OyV-3wS To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
