[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Of course, most early guitars have pegs for a double first course: but whether they were always strung accordingly is moot. Similarly, I suspect, for a lute with sufficient pegs . MH --- On Sat, 19/11/11, Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk wrote: From: Martin Shepherd mar...@luteshop.co.uk Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Date: Saturday, 19 November, 2011, 18:45 Hi Arto and All, I suggest a trawl through the iconography, counting pegs as well as strings. I have seen at least a couple of 6c lutes with double first - sorry the references elude me for the moment. But it was very common to have a double first in the late 16th/17th C, as evidenced by surviving instruments (including the little treble lute from the Venere workshop, and most liuti attiorbati) and writings - Dowland, Robinson, Mace, etc. Double firsts seem not to be popular these days, presumably because they are a little difficult to play on (I speak from experience) and possibly also because they imply a lower pitch than we currently tend to regard as normal. Best wishes, Martin On 19/11/2011 16:10, wikla wrote: Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. Mimmo Peruffo disputes that assumption: from his website page The lute in its historical reality- 9. Double treble and unison courses: the fact that the vihuela was generally (but not always) strung with a double treble led some scholars to take that as evidence in favour of all courses having been strung with unisons. We fail to grasp the logic of it. There is, on the other hand, evidence proving that the vihuela could have a single treble, whereas most Renaissance lutes where strung with double trebles. http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:42 PM, William Samson wrote: Again - I've forgotten the source (probably Eph Segerman), but I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. I do know that Eph had a 7c lute made like this and strung with catlines (his own manufacture - Northern Renaissance Instruments) in the basses. It certainly worked very well, but sounded 'darker' than a lute with octave stringing in the basses. Bill From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 20:51 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks to all for the most interesting answers! I actually just ordered a 6 courser, model Venere (the original, the model, was a 7 courser, I suppose?) from Lauri Niskanen, the guy who made my new 11 courser. And I ordered an option to double chanterelle - just one extra peg, just 3 grooves and 3 holes up and down. Any more constructive ideas what to hope and ask? best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
I've found the reference - Segerman and Abbott, FoMRHI Comm number 30, July 1976 [1]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf They say (p37) Instruments which come to mind that had double first courses and unison basses were 1. Vihuela 2. Robinson (1603) and Dowland (1610) lute. 3. At least some late 16th century Italian lutes. . . . . They give references on which they base these statements. Interesting stuff. What I find odd is that we've been channelled into a mindset where just about all 6c lutes built nowadays have single first courses and octaves on 6, 5 and 4. Lutes with 7 or more courses have unisons on 5, 4, 3, 2 and a single first, and octaves from 6 downwards. 11 and 13 c lutes have single 1st and second courses but 12c lutes have double second courses. All very formulaic and I'm as guilty as anyone of following these 'rules'. But there's plenty of evidence of more varied configurations in use at the time, and it would be surprising if there wasn't. It's a pity that these differences don't show up in modern practice, though I fully understand why - resale value for example, and maybe an assumption that as these seem to have ended up as the most successful configurations at the time, there's no need to explore anything else. Bill PS Oh yes - and octave stringing works out cheaper too :o) From: Daniel Winheld dwinh...@comcast.net To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 17:05 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. Mimmo Peruffo disputes that assumption: from his website page The lute in its historical reality- 9. Double treble and unison courses: the fact that the vihuela was generally (but not always) strung with a double treble led some scholars to take that as evidence in favour of all courses having been strung with unisons. We fail to grasp the logic of it. There is, on the other hand, evidence proving that the vihuela could have a single treble, whereas most Renaissance lutes where strung with double trebles. [2]http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:42 PM, William Samson wrote: Again - I've forgotten the source (probably Eph Segerman), but I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. I do know that Eph had a 7c lute made like this and strung with catlines (his own manufacture - Northern Renaissance Instruments) in the basses. It certainly worked very well, but sounded 'darker' than a lute with octave stringing in the basses. Bill From: wikla [3]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 20:51 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks to all for the most interesting answers! I actually just ordered a 6 courser, model Venere (the original, the model, was a 7 courser, I suppose?) from Lauri Niskanen, the guy who made my new 11 courser. And I ordered an option to double chanterelle - just one extra peg, just 3 grooves and 3 holes up and down. Any more constructive ideas what to hope and ask? best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [1][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf 2. http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm 3. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Thanks for the reference, Bill. There have been new discoveries since the time the article was written, where we now cannot claim that vihuelas were string in unison. Some were, others were not. They may have had the double first course, but there is evidence to the contrary that some vihuelas were string in octaves on 4,5, and 6th courses. ed At 12:02 PM 11/20/2011, William Samson wrote: I've found the reference - Segerman and Abbott, FoMRHI Comm number 30, July 1976 [1]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf They say (p37) Instruments which come to mind that had double first courses and unison basses were 1. Vihuela 2. Robinson (1603) and Dowland (1610) lute. 3. At least some late 16th century Italian lutes. . . . . They give references on which they base these statements. Interesting stuff. What I find odd is that we've been channelled into a mindset where just about all 6c lutes built nowadays have single first courses and octaves on 6, 5 and 4. Lutes with 7 or more courses have unisons on 5, 4, 3, 2 and a single first, and octaves from 6 downwards. 11 and 13 c lutes have single 1st and second courses but 12c lutes have double second courses. All very formulaic and I'm as guilty as anyone of following these 'rules'. But there's plenty of evidence of more varied configurations in use at the time, and it would be surprising if there wasn't. It's a pity that these differences don't show up in modern practice, though I fully understand why - resale value for example, and maybe an assumption that as these seem to have ended up as the most successful configurations at the time, there's no need to explore anything else. Bill PS Oh yes - and octave stringing works out cheaper too :o) From: Daniel Winheld dwinh...@comcast.net To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 17:05 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. Mimmo Peruffo disputes that assumption: from his website page The lute in its historical reality- 9. Double treble and unison courses: the fact that the vihuela was generally (but not always) strung with a double treble led some scholars to take that as evidence in favour of all courses having been strung with unisons. We fail to grasp the logic of it. There is, on the other hand, evidence proving that the vihuela could have a single treble, whereas most Renaissance lutes where strung with double trebles. [2]http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:42 PM, William Samson wrote: Again - I've forgotten the source (probably Eph Segerman), but I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. I do know that Eph had a 7c lute made like this and strung with catlines (his own manufacture - Northern Renaissance Instruments) in the basses. It certainly worked very well, but sounded 'darker' than a lute with octave stringing in the basses. Bill From: wikla [3]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 20:51 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks to all for the most interesting answers! I actually just ordered a 6 courser, model Venere (the original, the model, was a 7 courser, I suppose?) from Lauri Niskanen, the guy who made my new 11 courser. And I ordered an option to double chanterelle - just one extra peg, just 3 grooves and 3 holes up and down. Any more constructive ideas what to hope and ask? best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [1][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf 2. http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm 3. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Certainly, Ed. But how many vihuelas do we see nowadays in these configurations? In fact I wonder if there's a single one that isn't set up with unisons throughout and a double first? We're very conservative (with a small 'c') when it comes to pushing the envelope. I wonder if there was any recognised difference between how lutes and vihuelas were strung in a given place at the time. Nowadays, though, we're very blinkered about it all and conform to templates which are in some ways questionable. I'd love to hear Milan, say, played on an octave strung vihuela, or Milano on a unison strung 6c lute. Bill From: Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 18:31 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks for the reference, Bill. There have been new discoveries since the time the article was written, where we now cannot claim that vihuelas were string in unison. Some were, others were not. They may have had the double first course, but there is evidence to the contrary that some vihuelas were string in octaves on 4,5, and 6th courses. ed At 12:02 PM 11/20/2011, William Samson wrote: I've found the reference - Segerman and Abbott, FoMRHI Comm number 30, July 1976 [1][1]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf They say (p37) Instruments which come to mind that had double first courses and unison basses were 1. Vihuela 2. Robinson (1603) and Dowland (1610) lute. 3. At least some late 16th century Italian lutes. . . . . They give references on which they base these statements. Interesting stuff. What I find odd is that we've been channelled into a mindset where just about all 6c lutes built nowadays have single first courses and octaves on 6, 5 and 4. Lutes with 7 or more courses have unisons on 5, 4, 3, 2 and a single first, and octaves from 6 downwards. 11 and 13 c lutes have single 1st and second courses but 12c lutes have double second courses. All very formulaic and I'm as guilty as anyone of following these 'rules'. But there's plenty of evidence of more varied configurations in use at the time, and it would be surprising if there wasn't. It's a pity that these differences don't show up in modern practice, though I fully understand why - resale value for example, and maybe an assumption that as these seem to have ended up as the most successful configurations at the time, there's no need to explore anything else. Bill PS Oh yes - and octave stringing works out cheaper too :o) From: Daniel Winheld [2]dwinh...@comcast.net To: William Samson [3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 17:05 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. Mimmo Peruffo disputes that assumption: from his website page The lute in its historical reality- 9. Double treble and unison courses: the fact that the vihuela was generally (but not always) strung with a double treble led some scholars to take that as evidence in favour of all courses having been strung with unisons. We fail to grasp the logic of it. There is, on the other hand, evidence proving that the vihuela could have a single treble, whereas most Renaissance lutes where strung with double trebles. [2][6]http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:42 PM, William Samson wrote: Again - I've forgotten the source (probably Eph Segerman), but I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. I do know that Eph had a 7c lute made like this and strung with catlines (his own manufacture - Northern Renaissance Instruments) in the basses. It certainly worked very well, but sounded 'darker' than a lute with octave stringing in the basses. Bill From: wikla [3][7]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: [4][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 20:51 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks to all for the most interesting answers! I actually just ordered a 6 courser, model Venere (the original, the model, was a 7 courser, I suppose?) from Lauri Niskanen, the guy who made my new 11 courser. And I ordered an option to double chanterelle - just one extra peg
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Thanks, Bill. I have my vihuelas set up in gut, with octaves on 4, 5, and 6. It sounds charming, and yes, I do play Milan on it! ed At 12:53 PM 11/20/2011, William Samson wrote: Certainly, Ed. But how many vihuelas do we see nowadays in these configurations? In fact I wonder if there's a single one that isn't set up with unisons throughout and a double first? We're very conservative (with a small 'c') when it comes to pushing the envelope. I wonder if there was any recognised difference between how lutes and vihuelas were strung in a given place at the time. Nowadays, though, we're very blinkered about it all and conform to templates which are in some ways questionable. I'd love to hear Milan, say, played on an octave strung vihuela, or Milano on a unison strung 6c lute. Bill From: Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 18:31 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks for the reference, Bill. There have been new discoveries since the time the article was written, where we now cannot claim that vihuelas were string in unison. Some were, others were not. They may have had the double first course, but there is evidence to the contrary that some vihuelas were string in octaves on 4,5, and 6th courses. ed At 12:02 PM 11/20/2011, William Samson wrote: I've found the reference - Segerman and Abbott, FoMRHI Comm number 30, July 1976 [1][1]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf They say (p37) Instruments which come to mind that had double first courses and unison basses were 1. Vihuela 2. Robinson (1603) and Dowland (1610) lute. 3. At least some late 16th century Italian lutes. . . . . They give references on which they base these statements. Interesting stuff. What I find odd is that we've been channelled into a mindset where just about all 6c lutes built nowadays have single first courses and octaves on 6, 5 and 4. Lutes with 7 or more courses have unisons on 5, 4, 3, 2 and a single first, and octaves from 6 downwards. 11 and 13 c lutes have single 1st and second courses but 12c lutes have double second courses. All very formulaic and I'm as guilty as anyone of following these 'rules'. But there's plenty of evidence of more varied configurations in use at the time, and it would be surprising if there wasn't. It's a pity that these differences don't show up in modern practice, though I fully understand why - resale value for example, and maybe an assumption that as these seem to have ended up as the most successful configurations at the time, there's no need to explore anything else. Bill PS Oh yes - and octave stringing works out cheaper too :o) From: Daniel Winheld [2]dwinh...@comcast.net To: William Samson [3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 17:05 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. Mimmo Peruffo disputes that assumption: from his website page The lute in its historical reality- 9. Double treble and unison courses: the fact that the vihuela was generally (but not always) strung with a double treble led some scholars to take that as evidence in favour of all courses having been strung with unisons. We fail to grasp the logic of it. There is, on the other hand, evidence proving that the vihuela could have a single treble, whereas most Renaissance lutes where strung with double trebles. [2][6]http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:42 PM, William Samson wrote: Again - I've forgotten the source (probably Eph Segerman), but I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. I do know that Eph had a 7c lute made like this and strung with catlines (his own manufacture - Northern Renaissance Instruments) in the basses. It certainly worked very well, but sounded 'darker' than a lute with octave stringing in the basses. Bill From: wikla [3][7]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: [4][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 20:51 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks to all for the most interesting answers! I actually
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Bill That's a good question and we should all get a chance to listen to the experiment. I did and from my experience a unison-strung 6c is pretty clunky to play. When you have two ropey gut 6th course basses side by side you run into intonation (and buzzing) problems and it's pretty difficult to get a good tone playing both w/ a thumb. It also gets difficult to finger on the left hand. To my ear it becomes muddy. As I understand it, playing with octaves you should play the fundamental and brush the octave (simultaineously) as a habit so the ear hears the bass note correctly and still unconsciously digests the overtones keeping the sound bright and light. This is only my interpretation of it over the years. Sean On Nov 20, 2011, at 10:53 AM, William Samson wrote: Certainly, Ed. But how many vihuelas do we see nowadays in these configurations? In fact I wonder if there's a single one that isn't set up with unisons throughout and a double first? We're very conservative (with a small 'c') when it comes to pushing the envelope. I wonder if there was any recognised difference between how lutes and vihuelas were strung in a given place at the time. Nowadays, though, we're very blinkered about it all and conform to templates which are in some ways questionable. I'd love to hear Milan, say, played on an octave strung vihuela, or Milano on a unison strung 6c lute. Bill From: Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 18:31 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks for the reference, Bill. There have been new discoveries since the time the article was written, where we now cannot claim that vihuelas were string in unison. Some were, others were not. They may have had the double first course, but there is evidence to the contrary that some vihuelas were string in octaves on 4,5, and 6th courses. ed At 12:02 PM 11/20/2011, William Samson wrote: I've found the reference - Segerman and Abbott, FoMRHI Comm number 30, July 1976 [1][1]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf They say (p37) Instruments which come to mind that had double first courses and unison basses were 1. Vihuela 2. Robinson (1603) and Dowland (1610) lute. 3. At least some late 16th century Italian lutes. . . . . They give references on which they base these statements. Interesting stuff. What I find odd is that we've been channelled into a mindset where just about all 6c lutes built nowadays have single first courses and octaves on 6, 5 and 4. Lutes with 7 or more courses have unisons on 5, 4, 3, 2 and a single first, and octaves from 6 downwards. 11 and 13 c lutes have single 1st and second courses but 12c lutes have double second courses. All very formulaic and I'm as guilty as anyone of following these 'rules'. But there's plenty of evidence of more varied configurations in use at the time, and it would be surprising if there wasn't. It's a pity that these differences don't show up in modern practice, though I fully understand why - resale value for example, and maybe an assumption that as these seem to have ended up as the most successful configurations at the time, there's no need to explore anything else. Bill PS Oh yes - and octave stringing works out cheaper too :o) From: Daniel Winheld [2]dwinh...@comcast.net To: William Samson [3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 17:05 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. Mimmo Peruffo disputes that assumption: from his website page The lute in its historical reality- 9. Double treble and unison courses: the fact that the vihuela was generally (but not always) strung with a double treble led some scholars to take that as evidence in favour of all courses having been strung with unisons. We fail to grasp the logic of it. There is, on the other hand, evidence proving that the vihuela could have a single treble, whereas most Renaissance lutes where strung with double trebles. [2][6]http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:42 PM, William Samson wrote: Again - I've forgotten the source (probably Eph Segerman), but I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. I do know that Eph had a 7c lute made like this and strung with catlines (his own manufacture - Northern Renaissance Instruments) in the basses. It certainly worked very well, but sounded 'darker' than a lute with octave stringing in the basses. Bill From: wikla [3][7]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: [4][8]lute
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Sean's point is interesting. Whether unison or octave tuning on the 6th course (or above) might well depend on whether gut or synthetic strings are used. I've never been comfortable with octave stringing above the 7th course of my 8 course instrument since I often play thumb-index on the 6th as well as the higher courses (sometimes in solo literature, but especially in ensemble music). I prefer the sound of unisons when played t-i. Were I to go to gut, I might find that I would need to go to octave tuning, and have to learn to accustom myself to that sound, and/or alter my technique. On Nov 20, 2011, at 2:13 PM, Sean Smith wrote: Bill That's a good question and we should all get a chance to listen to the experiment. I did and from my experience a unison-strung 6c is pretty clunky to play. When you have two ropey gut 6th course basses side by side you run into intonation (and buzzing) problems and it's pretty difficult to get a good tone playing both w/ a thumb. It also gets difficult to finger on the left hand. To my ear it becomes muddy. As I understand it, playing with octaves you should play the fundamental and brush the octave (simultaineously) as a habit so the ear hears the bass note correctly and still unconsciously digests the overtones keeping the sound bright and light. This is only my interpretation of it over the years. Sean On Nov 20, 2011, at 10:53 AM, William Samson wrote: Certainly, Ed. But how many vihuelas do we see nowadays in these configurations? In fact I wonder if there's a single one that isn't set up with unisons throughout and a double first? We're very conservative (with a small 'c') when it comes to pushing the envelope. I wonder if there was any recognised difference between how lutes and vihuelas were strung in a given place at the time. Nowadays, though, we're very blinkered about it all and conform to templates which are in some ways questionable. I'd love to hear Milan, say, played on an octave strung vihuela, or Milano on a unison strung 6c lute. Bill From: Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 18:31 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks for the reference, Bill. There have been new discoveries since the time the article was written, where we now cannot claim that vihuelas were string in unison. Some were, others were not. They may have had the double first course, but there is evidence to the contrary that some vihuelas were string in octaves on 4,5, and 6th courses. ed At 12:02 PM 11/20/2011, William Samson wrote: I've found the reference - Segerman and Abbott, FoMRHI Comm number 30, July 1976 [1][1]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf They say (p37) Instruments which come to mind that had double first courses and unison basses were 1. Vihuela 2. Robinson (1603) and Dowland (1610) lute. 3. At least some late 16th century Italian lutes. . . . . They give references on which they base these statements. Interesting stuff. What I find odd is that we've been channelled into a mindset where just about all 6c lutes built nowadays have single first courses and octaves on 6, 5 and 4. Lutes with 7 or more courses have unisons on 5, 4, 3, 2 and a single first, and octaves from 6 downwards. 11 and 13 c lutes have single 1st and second courses but 12c lutes have double second courses. All very formulaic and I'm as guilty as anyone of following these 'rules'. But there's plenty of evidence of more varied configurations in use at the time, and it would be surprising if there wasn't. It's a pity that these differences don't show up in modern practice, though I fully understand why - resale value for example, and maybe an assumption that as these seem to have ended up as the most successful configurations at the time, there's no need to explore anything else. Bill PS Oh yes - and octave stringing works out cheaper too :o) From: Daniel Winheld [2]dwinh...@comcast.net To: William Samson [3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 17:05 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. Mimmo Peruffo disputes that assumption: from his website page The lute in its historical reality- 9. Double treble and unison courses: the fact that the vihuela was generally (but not always) strung with a double treble led some scholars to take that as evidence in favour of all courses having been strung with unisons. We fail to grasp the logic of it. There is, on the other hand, evidence proving that the vihuela could have a single treble, whereas most Renaissance
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
That's great! Are these both octave strung instruments on your Duo Chambure Youtubes? The sound is gorgeous! Bill From: Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 18:58 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks, Bill. I have my vihuelas set up in gut, with octaves on 4, 5, and 6. It sounds charming, and yes, I do play Milan on it! ed At 12:53 PM 11/20/2011, William Samson wrote: Certainly, Ed. But how many vihuelas do we see nowadays in these configurations? In fact I wonder if there's a single one that isn't set up with unisons throughout and a double first? We're very conservative (with a small 'c') when it comes to pushing the envelope. I wonder if there was any recognised difference between how lutes and vihuelas were strung in a given place at the time. Nowadays, though, we're very blinkered about it all and conform to templates which are in some ways questionable. I'd love to hear Milan, say, played on an octave strung vihuela, or Milano on a unison strung 6c lute. Bill From: Edward Martin [1]e...@gamutstrings.com To: William Samson [2]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk; [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 18:31 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks for the reference, Bill. There have been new discoveries since the time the article was written, where we now cannot claim that vihuelas were string in unison. Some were, others were not. They may have had the double first course, but there is evidence to the contrary that some vihuelas were string in octaves on 4,5, and 6th courses. ed At 12:02 PM 11/20/2011, William Samson wrote: I've found the reference - Segerman and Abbott, FoMRHI Comm number 30, July 1976 [1][1][5]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf They say (p37) Instruments which come to mind that had double first courses and unison basses were 1. Vihuela 2. Robinson (1603) and Dowland (1610) lute. 3. At least some late 16th century Italian lutes. . . . . They give references on which they base these statements. Interesting stuff. What I find odd is that we've been channelled into a mindset where just about all 6c lutes built nowadays have single first courses and octaves on 6, 5 and 4. Lutes with 7 or more courses have unisons on 5, 4, 3, 2 and a single first, and octaves from 6 downwards. 11 and 13 c lutes have single 1st and second courses but 12c lutes have double second courses. All very formulaic and I'm as guilty as anyone of following these 'rules'. But there's plenty of evidence of more varied configurations in use at the time, and it would be surprising if there wasn't. It's a pity that these differences don't show up in modern practice, though I fully understand why - resale value for example, and maybe an assumption that as these seem to have ended up as the most successful configurations at the time, there's no need to explore anything else. Bill PS Oh yes - and octave stringing works out cheaper too :o) From: Daniel Winheld [2][6]dwinh...@comcast.net To: William Samson [3][7]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: [4][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [5][9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 17:05 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. Mimmo Peruffo disputes that assumption: from his website page The lute in its historical reality- 9. Double treble and unison courses: the fact that the vihuela was generally (but not always) strung with a double treble led some scholars to take that as evidence in favour of all courses having been strung with unisons. We fail to grasp the logic of it. There is, on the other hand, evidence proving that the vihuela could have a single treble, whereas most Renaissance lutes where strung with double trebles. [2][6][10]http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:42 PM, William Samson wrote: Again - I've forgotten the source
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
recognised difference between how lutes and vihuelas were strung in a given place at the time. Nowadays, though, we're very blinkered about it all and conform to templates which are in some ways questionable. I'd love to hear Milan, say, played on an octave strung vihuela, or Milano on a unison strung 6c lute. Bill From: Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 18:31 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks for the reference, Bill. There have been new discoveries since the time the article was written, where we now cannot claim that vihuelas were string in unison. Some were, others were not. They may have had the double first course, but there is evidence to the contrary that some vihuelas were string in octaves on 4,5, and 6th courses. ed At 12:02 PM 11/20/2011, William Samson wrote: I've found the reference - Segerman and Abbott, FoMRHI Comm number 30, July 1976 [1][1]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf They say (p37) Instruments which come to mind that had double first courses and unison basses were 1. Vihuela 2. Robinson (1603) and Dowland (1610) lute. 3. At least some late 16th century Italian lutes. . . . . They give references on which they base these statements. Interesting stuff. What I find odd is that we've been channelled into a mindset where just about all 6c lutes built nowadays have single first courses and octaves on 6, 5 and 4. Lutes with 7 or more courses have unisons on 5, 4, 3, 2 and a single first, and octaves from 6 downwards. 11 and 13 c lutes have single 1st and second courses but 12c lutes have double second courses. All very formulaic and I'm as guilty as anyone of following these 'rules'. But there's plenty of evidence of more varied configurations in use at the time, and it would be surprising if there wasn't. It's a pity that these differences don't show up in modern practice, though I fully understand why - resale value for example, and maybe an assumption that as these seem to have ended up as the most successful configurations at the time, there's no need to explore anything else. Bill PS Oh yes - and octave stringing works out cheaper too :o) From: Daniel Winheld [2]dwinh...@comcast.net To: William Samson [3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 17:05 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. Mimmo Peruffo disputes that assumption: from his website page The lute in its historical reality- 9. Double treble and unison courses: the fact that the vihuela was generally (but not always) strung with a double treble led some scholars to take that as evidence in favour of all courses having been strung with unisons. We fail to grasp the logic of it. There is, on the other hand, evidence proving that the vihuela could have a single treble, whereas most Renaissance lutes where strung with double trebles. [2][6]http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:42 PM, William Samson wrote: Again - I've forgotten the source (probably Eph Segerman), but I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. I do know that Eph had a 7c lute made like this and strung with catlines (his own manufacture - Northern Renaissance Instruments) in the basses. It certainly worked very well, but sounded 'darker' than a lute with octave stringing in the basses. Bill From: wikla [3][7]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: [4][8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 20:51 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks to all for the most interesting answers! I actually just ordered a 6 courser, model Venere (the original, the model, was a 7 courser, I suppose?) from Lauri Niskanen, the guy who made my new 11 courser. And I ordered an option to double chanterelle - just one extra peg, just 3 grooves and 3 holes up and down. Any more constructive ideas what to hope and ask? best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [1][5][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [6][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- -- References 1. [11]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf 2. [12]http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm 3. mailto:[13]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 4. mailto:[14]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. [15]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [17]e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 [18]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name [19]http://www.myspace.com/edslute [20]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
They certainly do sound lovely. I wonder if we'll ever know just how the thickest gut basses were made back in the day. Certainly the roped ones, while being flexible enough to play in tune all the way up the fingerboard, do sound 'thuddy' to modern ears. Is that something that would have been acceptable in the 16th/17th centuries, or did they make better basses? Judging by the sizes of holes in original bridges their basses must have been thinner than our roped ones, so I guess they had a different way of making them. 'Loaded' gut certainly sounds good, but is that what they did? It all helps keep life interesting for string researchers. Getting back to Arto's question, it would seem that some 6c instruments had 12 pegs, whether they had a single or a double first. I would guess the customers were keeping their options open. It seems to me that there's no reason why a lutenist today shouldn't take the same approach and have an instrument that could be strung either way. A couple of my own lutes have a peg more than I actually use right now, but it means I can change my mind without changing my instrument. My 7c has 14 pegs and my 10c has 20 pegs, which means I can change it to an 11c with a single second any time I want (with a differen nut and an extra hole in the bridge). Bill From: Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk; Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 21:29 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks for the comments. On those instruments, we have octaves only at the 6th, and on one instrument, also at the 5th. Those you-tubes are from a performance in Gijon, Spain , this summer. I actually received some criticism on the stringing, being told we should have unisons, and double first courses. The reasons stated were due to polyphony, getting an even sound. I am not so certain as I think those Chambure vihuelas sound nice as they are strung. ed At 01:52 PM 11/20/2011, William Samson wrote: That's great! Are these both octave strung instruments on your Duo Chambure Youtubes? The sound is gorgeous! Bill From: Edward Martin [1]e...@gamutstrings.com To: William Samson [2]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk; [3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 18:58 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks, Bill. I have my vihuelas set up in gut, with octaves on 4, 5, and 6. It sounds charming, and yes, I do play Milan on it! ed At 12:53 PM 11/20/2011, William Samson wrote: Certainly, Ed. But how many vihuelas do we see nowadays in these configurations? In fact I wonder if there's a single one that isn't set up with unisons throughout and a double first? We're very conservative (with a small 'c') when it comes to pushing the envelope. I wonder if there was any recognised difference between how lutes and vihuelas were strung in a given place at the time. Nowadays, though, we're very blinkered about it all and conform to templates which are in some ways questionable. I'd love to hear Milan, say, played on an octave strung vihuela, or Milano on a unison strung 6c lute. Bill From: Edward Martin mailto:[5]e...@gamutstrings.com[6]e...@gamutstrings.com To: William Samson mailto:[7]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk[8]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk; mailto:[9]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu[10]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu mailto:[11]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu[12]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 18:31 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks for the reference, Bill. There have been new discoveries since the time the article was written, where we now cannot claim that vihuelas were string in unison. Some were, others were not. They may have had the double first course, but there is evidence to the contrary that some vihuelas were string in octaves on 4,5, and 6th courses. ed At 12:02 PM 11/20/2011, William Samson wrote: I've found the reference - Segerman and Abbott, FoMRHI Comm number 30, July 1976 [1][1][13]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf[14]h ttp://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf They say (p37) Instruments which come to mind that had double first courses and unison basses were 1. Vihuela 2. Robinson (1603) and Dowland (1610) lute. 3. At least some late 16th century Italian lutes. . . . . They give references on which they base these statements
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
This is hilarious - we know that vihuelas had unison basses, therefore if they had double trebles, there is a connection between double trebles and unison basses, even on lutes. Just how many false assumptions are in there? I've lost count, but vihuelas may or may not have had unison basses and/or double trebles (in both cases I think there is no evidence either way). It's certainly true that lutes sometimes had double trebles, and sometimes (perhaps mostly) had octaved basses. It seems unlikely that vihuelas of the same period had no octaved basses, in spite of wishful thinking by some people in the 20th C. It may be true that vihuelas sometimes (or usually) had double trebles, we simply don't know. Martin On 20/11/2011 17:05, Daniel Winheld wrote: I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. Mimmo Peruffo disputes that assumption: from his website page The lute in its historical reality- 9. Double treble and unison courses: the fact that the vihuela was generally (but not always) strung with a double treble led some scholars to take that as evidence in favour of all courses having been strung with unisons. We fail to grasp the logic of it. There is, on the other hand, evidence proving that the vihuela could have a single treble, whereas most Renaissance lutes where strung with double trebles. http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:42 PM, William Samson wrote: Again - I've forgotten the source (probably Eph Segerman), but I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. I do know that Eph had a 7c lute made like this and strung with catlines (his own manufacture - Northern Renaissance Instruments) in the basses. It certainly worked very well, but sounded 'darker' than a lute with octave stringing in the basses. Bill From: wiklawi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 20:51 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks to all for the most interesting answers! I actually just ordered a 6 courser, model Venere (the original, the model, was a 7 courser, I suppose?) from Lauri Niskanen, the guy who made my new 11 courser. And I ordered an option to double chanterelle - just one extra peg, just 3 grooves and 3 holes up and down. Any more constructive ideas what to hope and ask? best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
literature, but especially in ensemble music). I prefer the sound of unisons when played t-i. Were I to go to gut, I might find that I would need to go to octave tuning, and have to learn to accustom myself to that sound, and/or alter my technique. On Nov 20, 2011, at 2:13 PM, Sean Smith wrote: Bill That's a good question and we should all get a chance to listen to the experiment. I did and from my experience a unison-strung 6c is pretty clunky to play. When you have two ropey gut 6th course basses side by side you run into intonation (and buzzing) problems and it's pretty difficult to get a good tone playing both w/ a thumb. It also gets difficult to finger on the left hand. To my ear it becomes muddy. As I understand it, playing with octaves you should play the fundamental and brush the octave (simultaineously) as a habit so the ear hears the bass note correctly and still unconsciously digests the overtones keeping the sound bright and light. This is only my interpretation of it over the years. Sean On Nov 20, 2011, at 10:53 AM, William Samson wrote: Certainly, Ed. But how many vihuelas do we see nowadays in these configurations? In fact I wonder if there's a single one that isn't set up with unisons throughout and a double first? We're very conservative (with a small 'c') when it comes to pushing the envelope. I wonder if there was any recognised difference between how lutes and vihuelas were strung in a given place at the time. Nowadays, though, we're very blinkered about it all and conform to templates which are in some ways questionable. I'd love to hear Milan, say, played on an octave strung vihuela, or Milano on a unison strung 6c lute. Bill From: Edward Martin e...@gamutstrings.com To: William Samson willsam...@yahoo.co.uk; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 18:31 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks for the reference, Bill. There have been new discoveries since the time the article was written, where we now cannot claim that vihuelas were string in unison. Some were, others were not. They may have had the double first course, but there is evidence to the contrary that some vihuelas were string in octaves on 4,5, and 6th courses. ed At 12:02 PM 11/20/2011, William Samson wrote: I've found the reference - Segerman and Abbott, FoMRHI Comm number 30, July 1976 [1][1]http://www.fomrhi.org/uploads/bulletins/Fomrhi-004.pdf They say (p37) Instruments which come to mind that had double first courses and unison basses were 1. Vihuela 2. Robinson (1603) and Dowland (1610) lute. 3. At least some late 16th century Italian lutes. . . . . They give references on which they base these statements. Interesting stuff. What I find odd is that we've been channelled into a mindset where just about all 6c lutes built nowadays have single first courses and octaves on 6, 5 and 4. Lutes with 7 or more courses have unisons on 5, 4, 3, 2 and a single first, and octaves from 6 downwards. 11 and 13 c lutes have single 1st and second courses but 12c lutes have double second courses. All very formulaic and I'm as guilty as anyone of following these 'rules'. But there's plenty of evidence of more varied configurations in use at the time, and it would be surprising if there wasn't. It's a pity that these differences don't show up in modern practice, though I fully understand why - resale value for example, and maybe an assumption that as these seem to have ended up as the most successful configurations at the time, there's no need to explore anything else. Bill PS Oh yes - and octave stringing works out cheaper too :o) From: Daniel Winheld [2]dwinh...@comcast.net To: William Samson [3]willsam...@yahoo.co.uk Cc: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 20 November 2011, 17:05 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. Mimmo Peruffo disputes that assumption: from his website page The lute in its historical reality- 9. Double treble and unison courses: the fact that the vihuela was generally (but not always) strung with a double treble led some scholars to take that as evidence in favour of all courses having been strung with unisons. We fail to grasp the logic of it. There is, on the other hand, evidence proving that the vihuela could have a single treble, whereas most Renaissance lutes where strung with double trebles. [2][6]http://www.mimmoperuffo.org/9e.htm On Nov 19, 2011, at 11:42 PM, William Samson wrote: Again - I've forgotten the source (probably Eph Segerman), but I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. I do know that Eph had a 7c lute made like this and strung with catlines (his own manufacture - Northern Renaissance
[LUTE] Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Arto, I seem to remember mention, perhaps in my Poultan method, that it was done by Dowland and others sometimes... I plan to make myself a lute when I can, and I plan on all-unisons including top course , so I must not have dreamed it up, hopefully. Garry -Original Message- From: wikla Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 11:10 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Yes, Dowland and Robinson as well advocated double firsts. Even Thomas Mace, at a time when the typical 11 course lute had a single 2nd as well as a single first. But Arto was asking about the 6 course lute. Can't recall written sources addressing this off the top of my head, but pretty sure I've seen paintings by Carravagio and some others depicting later 16th century 6 course lutes with doubled 1sts, and of course on 7 course lutes. If you can google up Mimmo Peruffo's old lute string page The Lute in its Historical Reality he has assembled a wealth of information, including the ups and downs of the doubled first course on lutes, vihuelas, and guitars through out the whole of the 16th century (as well as the 17th 18th, and the 15th). I'm sure some of our esteemed builders will weigh in soon on this. Garry, I highly recommend having the pegs, holes, and nut grooves available for the doubled 1st. It's so much easier to take one off than to upgrade the pegbox. Some instruments work really well with the doubled first, and when your right hand touch becomes sensitive enough to handle it, your entire tone and technique benefits. Dan On Nov 19, 2011, at 9:52 AM, Garry Warber wrote: Arto, I seem to remember mention, perhaps in my Poultan method, that it was done by Dowland and others sometimes... I plan to make myself a lute when I can, and I plan on all-unisons including top course , so I must not have dreamed it up, hopefully. Garry -Original Message- From: wikla Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 11:10 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Hi Arto and All, I suggest a trawl through the iconography, counting pegs as well as strings. I have seen at least a couple of 6c lutes with double first - sorry the references elude me for the moment. But it was very common to have a double first in the late 16th/17th C, as evidenced by surviving instruments (including the little treble lute from the Venere workshop, and most liuti attiorbati) and writings - Dowland, Robinson, Mace, etc. Double firsts seem not to be popular these days, presumably because they are a little difficult to play on (I speak from experience) and possibly also because they imply a lower pitch than we currently tend to regard as normal. Best wishes, Martin On 19/11/2011 16:10, wikla wrote: Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Hi Arto, This doesn't answer your question but I had a bass lute built w/ a double chanterelle and found that it creates a slightly different paradigm. We're so used to the single chanterelle singing that it just becomes normal to our ears. The double, otoh, sounds like an extension of the 2nd course and, as such, more integrated w/ the other strings. It wouldn't be my first choice for a broken consort division lute or Borono's dance music but it sounds great in polyphonic compositions where you don't want to get distracted by the top string taking the attention. Since Simon Gintzler came up the other day, I'll just say that as a top shelf lutenist, his ricercars and settings are perfect for this. Then again, I haven't had a chance to try broken consort music w/ a double ch. so maybe I'd be pleasantly surprised. If you do try it please get back to us with your impressions. best wishes, Sean On Nov 19, 2011, at 8:10 AM, wikla wrote: Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Daniel, Yes, and thank you. I just prefer the sound of the unisons, and when I go to the top single it sounds thin! I know the reason, fancy ornamenting, etc., but I can do that well enough for me on double courses. The Poulton Method is for six-course, by the way... I'm not one of the historically-correct players either. :-) Garry -Original Message- From: Daniel Winheld Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 1:43 PM To: Garry Warber Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Yes, Dowland and Robinson as well advocated double firsts. Even Thomas Mace, at a time when the typical 11 course lute had a single 2nd as well as a single first. But Arto was asking about the 6 course lute. Can't recall written sources addressing this off the top of my head, but pretty sure I've seen paintings by Carravagio and some others depicting later 16th century 6 course lutes with doubled 1sts, and of course on 7 course lutes. If you can google up Mimmo Peruffo's old lute string page The Lute in its Historical Reality he has assembled a wealth of information, including the ups and downs of the doubled first course on lutes, vihuelas, and guitars through out the whole of the 16th century (as well as the 17th 18th, and the 15th). I'm sure some of our esteemed builders will weigh in soon on this. Garry, I highly recommend having the pegs, holes, and nut grooves available for the doubled 1st. It's so much easier to take one off than to upgrade the pegbox. Some instruments work really well with the doubled first, and when your right hand touch becomes sensitive enough to handle it, your entire tone and technique benefits. Dan On Nov 19, 2011, at 9:52 AM, Garry Warber wrote: Arto, I seem to remember mention, perhaps in my Poultan method, that it was done by Dowland and others sometimes... I plan to make myself a lute when I can, and I plan on all-unisons including top course , so I must not have dreamed it up, hopefully. Garry -Original Message- From: wikla Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 11:10 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Hi Arto, If you'll settle for 7-course, here's a link to a Caravaggio Cupid with a 7-course lute with 14 pegs: [1]http://www.ownapainting.com/images/Caravaggio-Cupid.jpg Bill From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 16:10 Subject: [LUTE] Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.ownapainting.com/images/Caravaggio-Cupid.jpg 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
And another (6c this time!) from Caravaggio [1]http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg Bill From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 16:10 Subject: [LUTE] Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
My favorite painting of all time... To my surprise, I've heard the lute player referred to as a boy. Is that correct? I've always fancied her as female... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: William Samson Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:23 PM To: wikla ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? And another (6c this time!) from Caravaggio [1]http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg Bill From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 16:10 Subject: [LUTE] Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
There's no answer to that . . . From: Garry Warber garrywar...@hughes.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 20:45 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? My favorite painting of all time... To my surprise, I've heard the lute player referred to as a boy. Is that correct? I've always fancied her as female... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: William Samson Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:23 PM To: wikla ; [1]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? And another (6c this time!) from Caravaggio [1][2]http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.j pg Bill From: wikla [3]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: [4]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 16:10 Subject: [LUTE] Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [2][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [6]http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 2. [7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 3. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 4. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Thanks to all for the most interesting answers! I actually just ordered a 6 courser, model Venere (the original, the model, was a 7 courser, I suppose?) from Lauri Niskanen, the guy who made my new 11 courser. And I ordered an option to double chanterelle - just one extra peg, just 3 grooves and 3 holes up and down. Any more constructive ideas what to hope and ask? best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Arto- Bill got it- that's the one. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg Double firsts seem not to be popular these days, presumably because they are a little difficult to play on (I speak from experience) and possibly also because they imply a lower pitch than we currently tend to regard as normal. We're so used to the single chanterelle singing that it just becomes normal to our ears. The double, otoh, sounds like an extension of the 2nd course and, as such, more integrated w/ the other strings...it sounds great in polyphonic compositions where you don't want to get distracted by the top string taking the attention. Martin Sean's comments capture not only the the modern, but perhaps also some historic reasons pro/con the doubled first. Perhaps the most common reason reason historically for the single first may have been the trouble expense of keeping the most highly stressed often replaced string doubled- not to mention problems of falseness- a marginal but acceptable string would not be acceptable with non-identical mate. I have had three instruments- one lute and two vihuelas in my career with the doubled first option. Only my current vihuela, a Chambure copy by Harris Barber has succeeded for me with double. And, as Martin said, works best pitched a bit lower. A Floats between a-392 and 400 (nominal g, 64 cm.) whereas the builders- incl. Dan Larson who builds superb versions of this instrument- recommend a up to 415. And as Sean has said, the first course when doubled gets fired from its gig as Prima Donna of the strings and goes back into the choir as the Treble section. Works wonderfully for all that polyphony, especially the sacred intabulations. Difficult to play on yes, but well worth the effort on the right instrument. Takes a bit of work to determine that, sometimes. Pitches, tensions, string gauges all must be carefully tweaked; then the touch patiently, carefully cultivated. And in the end, one may well decide it's not best after all. Hopkinson Smith once told me that he switched from a double chanterelle on his vihuela to a single when one of the pair broke; he just happily left it as it was. I'm sure that happened in the past a lot too. Dan On Nov 19, 2011, at 12:51 PM, wikla wrote: Thanks to all for the most interesting answers! I actually just ordered a 6 courser, model Venere (the original, the model, was a 7 courser, I suppose?) from Lauri Niskanen, the guy who made my new 11 courser. And I ordered an option to double chanterelle - just one extra peg, just 3 grooves and 3 holes up and down. Any more constructive ideas what to hope and ask? best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
I've always assumed a boy. The face seems masculine to me, and the open shirt/blouse would be inappropriate for a girl, no? Does any historical record tell us? On Nov 19, 2011, at 3:45 PM, Garry Warber wrote: My favorite painting of all time... To my surprise, I've heard the lute player referred to as a boy. Is that correct? I've always fancied her as female... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: William Samson Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:23 PM To: wikla ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? And another (6c this time!) from Caravaggio [1]http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg Bill From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 16:10 Subject: [LUTE] Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
The depiction in the Caravaggio painting is indeed a boy. Please see this Wiki article about the painting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lute_Player_%28Caravaggio%29 It is well foot-noted. ed At 02:45 PM 11/19/2011, Garry Warber wrote: My favorite painting of all time... To my surprise, I've heard the lute player referred to as a boy. Is that correct? I've always fancied her as female... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: William Samson Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:23 PM To: wikla ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? And another (6c this time!) from Caravaggio [1]http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg Bill From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 16:10 Subject: [LUTE] Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Could it be that it was an Italian thing? I seem to remember hearing that many years ago but can't quote a source. Maybe something by Eph Segerman in FoMRHIQ? Bill From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 20:51 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks to all for the most interesting answers! I actually just ordered a 6 courser, model Venere (the original, the model, was a 7 courser, I suppose?) from Lauri Niskanen, the guy who made my new 11 courser. And I ordered an option to double chanterelle - just one extra peg, just 3 grooves and 3 holes up and down. Any more constructive ideas what to hope and ask? best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Mystery solved - Neither man nor woman, but hobbit: [1]http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTijRxDsyaGkEGqjRpoAOsMXJlfU uB12mGMD6v6BPdZVNmmvHcpGyTZ4DcK1w From: Garry Warber garrywar...@hughes.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 20:45 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? My favorite painting of all time... To my surprise, I've heard the lute player referred to as a boy. Is that correct? I've always fancied her as female... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: William Samson Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:23 PM To: wikla ; [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? And another (6c this time!) from Caravaggio [1][3]http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.j pg Bill From: wikla [4]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 16:10 Subject: [LUTE] Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [2][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [7]http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 2. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTijRxDsyaGkEGqjRpoAOsMXJlfUuB12mGMD6v6BPdZVNmmvHcpGyTZ4DcK1w 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 4. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Caravaggio al frodo! Doesn't The Hobbit start out w/ a motley crew (no umlauts) of dwarves having a party at Bilbo's house w/ lots of lutes and things? Looking at the Wiki article (thanks Ed!), one of the 3 versions of this appears to be a 7c and the other two are 6c's --all doubled top strings. Good news for Arto. Sean On Nov 19, 2011, at 3:48 PM, William Samson wrote: Mystery solved - Neither man nor woman, but hobbit: [1]http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTijRxDsyaGkEGqjRpoAOsMXJlfU uB12mGMD6v6BPdZVNmmvHcpGyTZ4DcK1w From: Garry Warber garrywar...@hughes.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 20:45 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? My favorite painting of all time... To my surprise, I've heard the lute player referred to as a boy. Is that correct? I've always fancied her as female... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: William Samson Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:23 PM To: wikla ; [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? And another (6c this time!) from Caravaggio [1][3]http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.j pg Bill From: wikla [4]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 16:10 Subject: [LUTE] Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [2][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [7]http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/ 0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 2. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTijRxDsyaGkEGqjRpoAOsMXJlfUuB12mGMD6v6BPdZVNmmvHcpGyTZ4DcK1w 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/ 0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 4. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/ 0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Thoren has a harp, plus some viols, and perhaps Orey and Norey have recorder/flutes? Ben a bit since I read it, but winter is a-comin' in... -Original Message- From: Sean Smith Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 7:23 PM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Caravaggio al frodo! Doesn't The Hobbit start out w/ a motley crew (no umlauts) of dwarves having a party at Bilbo's house w/ lots of lutes and things? Looking at the Wiki article (thanks Ed!), one of the 3 versions of this appears to be a 7c and the other two are 6c's --all doubled top strings. Good news for Arto. Sean On Nov 19, 2011, at 3:48 PM, William Samson wrote: Mystery solved - Neither man nor woman, but hobbit: [1]http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTijRxDsyaGkEGqjRpoAOsMXJlfU uB12mGMD6v6BPdZVNmmvHcpGyTZ4DcK1w From: Garry Warber garrywar...@hughes.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 20:45 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? My favorite painting of all time... To my surprise, I've heard the lute player referred to as a boy. Is that correct? I've always fancied her as female... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: William Samson Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:23 PM To: wikla ; [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? And another (6c this time!) from Caravaggio [1][3]http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.j pg Bill From: wikla [4]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 16:10 Subject: [LUTE] Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [2][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [7]http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/ 0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 2. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTijRxDsyaGkEGqjRpoAOsMXJlfUuB12mGMD6v6BPdZVNmmvHcpGyTZ4DcK1w 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/ 0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 4. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/ 0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Rats... That's all... Just rats... Another one peed upon. Garry -Original Message- From: Edward Martin Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 5:40 PM To: Garry Warber ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? The depiction in the Caravaggio painting is indeed a boy. Please see this Wiki article about the painting. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lute_Player_%28Caravaggio%29 It is well foot-noted. ed At 02:45 PM 11/19/2011, Garry Warber wrote: My favorite painting of all time... To my surprise, I've heard the lute player referred to as a boy. Is that correct? I've always fancied her as female... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: William Samson Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:23 PM To: wikla ; lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? And another (6c this time!) from Caravaggio [1]http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg Bill From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 16:10 Subject: [LUTE] Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
That's right, viols. They carried viols around in a sack? I remember wondering that waay back when, too. Orey Norey: Personally I think should have plastic nose flutes and recit their names while they play. s On Nov 19, 2011, at 4:52 PM, Garry Warber wrote: Thoren has a harp, plus some viols, and perhaps Orey and Norey have recorder/flutes? Ben a bit since I read it, but winter is a-comin' in... -Original Message- From: Sean Smith Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 7:23 PM To: lute Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Caravaggio al frodo! Doesn't The Hobbit start out w/ a motley crew (no umlauts) of dwarves having a party at Bilbo's house w/ lots of lutes and things? Looking at the Wiki article (thanks Ed!), one of the 3 versions of this appears to be a 7c and the other two are 6c's --all doubled top strings. Good news for Arto. Sean On Nov 19, 2011, at 3:48 PM, William Samson wrote: Mystery solved - Neither man nor woman, but hobbit: [1]http://t1.gstatic.com/images? q=tbn:ANd9GcTijRxDsyaGkEGqjRpoAOsMXJlfU uB12mGMD6v6BPdZVNmmvHcpGyTZ4DcK1w From: Garry Warber garrywar...@hughes.net To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 20:45 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? My favorite painting of all time... To my surprise, I've heard the lute player referred to as a boy. Is that correct? I've always fancied her as female... :-) Garry -Original Message- From: William Samson Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2011 2:23 PM To: wikla ; [2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? And another (6c this time!) from Caravaggio [1][3]http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/ 0003150A4_3_LRG.j pg Bill From: wikla [4]wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: [5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 16:10 Subject: [LUTE] Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Dear collective wisdom, is there any evidence of using double chanterelle on 6 course lutes? (If memory serves, there is at least one liuto attiorbato stringed so.) Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [2][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [7]http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/ 0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 2. [8]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTijRxDsyaGkEGqjRpoAOsMXJlfUuB12mGMD6v6BPdZVNmmvHcpGyTZ4DcK1w 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/ 0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 4. mailto:wi...@cs.helsinki.fi 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. http://www.hermitageshop.org/store/images/large/ 0003150A4_3_LRG.jpg 8. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes?
Again - I've forgotten the source (probably Eph Segerman), but I seem to remember that lutes with a double chanterelle were usually strung in unisons. I do know that Eph had a 7c lute made like this and strung with catlines (his own manufacture - Northern Renaissance Instruments) in the basses. It certainly worked very well, but sounded 'darker' than a lute with octave stringing in the basses. Bill From: wikla wi...@cs.helsinki.fi To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, 19 November 2011, 20:51 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double 1st string on 6 course lutes? Thanks to all for the most interesting answers! I actually just ordered a 6 courser, model Venere (the original, the model, was a 7 courser, I suppose?) from Lauri Niskanen, the guy who made my new 11 courser. And I ordered an option to double chanterelle - just one extra peg, just 3 grooves and 3 holes up and down. Any more constructive ideas what to hope and ask? best, Arto To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Double 1st (HIP message included)
Dear Jon, I'm pleased my e-mail on the theorbo tuning was useful. I think you understand it now. The word re-entrant is used to describe a tuning where the strings do not ascend in the usual order of pitch. A harp, a violin, a modern guitar - these and many more - do not have re-entrant tunings, because as you go from the lowest string to the highest, each successive string is higher than the previous one. A good example of an instrument with a re-entrant tuning is the five-string banjo, which has that short 5th string tuned higher than the others, yet it lies where you'd expect the lowest string to be: ---(-)-°-- /--o-- --/-|\o--- -(--|-)--o --\-|- _|8 ° String:54321 The English cittern is another instrument with a re-entrant tuning: ---(-)--° /o°-- --/-|\-o- -(--|-)-o --\-| _|8 Course:4321 which is similar to the re-entrant tuning of the ukulele: ---(-)--- /--o--°-- --/-|\---o--- -(--|-)-o --\-| _|8 String:4321 The baroque guitar had various tunings, of which this re-entrant one was common in France: ---(-)- /---o--°--- --/-|\o -(--|-)°-o- --\-|-- _|8 ° Course:54321 The re-entrant tuning of a theorbo with 2 courses down an octave would look like this: --°---o- -(---):-°--- /-o-°--- ---/ --o-°--- --o-° -o- ° ---o--° ° Course:14 13 12 11 10 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1 I've not tried writing music in this way before. It looks OK on my screen; I just hope it comes out OK on yours. You'll need a mono-spaced font like Courier to get the vertical alignment correct, and with luck the little degree signs will look like notes in the spaces between lines. Best wishes, Stewart. - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, January 11, 2004 6:29 AM Subject: Re: Double 1st (HIP message included) OK, I'm a retired computer programmer at that level where we wrote the internal code. Re-entrant has a meaning to me that may be different than your use in the musical sense. But there may be a parallel. Do you mean that the theorbo tuning allows you to run up the instrument and re-enter the melody at a lower pitch? Best, Jon
Re: Double 1st (HIP message included)
Now, I'm confused! If what you say is so, and I am sure it is, why would anyone want to put thick strings on the 1st and 2nd course of their lute and tune them an octave lower? I was under the impression that this was something to do with the string length... Monica - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 11:14 AM Subject: Double 1st (HIP message included) Dear Jon, Yes, I think you still haven't grasped the fundamental point about the tuning of theorbos, and it is causing you no end of confusion. Forget the long neck. The long neck is a complete red herring. A theorbo is simply a lute with the first course (or first two courses) tuned an octave lower. That's all it is. Nothing else matters apart from the tuning. If you have a renaissance lute in G, with its first course tuned to the G above middle C, you have a lute. If you take off the first course, replace it with a thicker string, and tune it down an octave to the G below middle C, you have a theorbo. Same instrument, but different tuning. Where I think you are getting confused, is that you are imagining adding a string to the lute, which is an octave higher than the G above middle C, instead of an octave lower. It is true that theorbos generally had giraffe necks with an extra pegbox stuck on the end, and it is that feature which results in phrases like liuto attiorbato (theorboed lute). People associated the word theorbo with long necks and extra pegboxes. I think you're doing the same, but it's causing you no end of confusion. It's the re-entrant tuning which defines the theorbo, not the long neck. Just for the record, if you have a lute with a long neck and extra pegbox, and it keeps its lute tuning (G above middle C), you have an archlute. If you have the same lute with a long neck, and you re-tune the first course (to G below middle C), you have a theorbo. I hope that helps. If you still have a copy of my message Double 1st (HIP message included) on 7th January, do have another look at it, and see if you understand it differently now. Best wishes, Stewart. - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 7:15 AM Subject: Re: Double 1st (HIP message included) Gentlemen, I am confused. And I'm not embarrassed by my confusion, the number of instruments with different names in the registry of lutes is a bit daunting. I am aware that guitars, violins and cellos - and all sorts of other similar instruments are categorized as lutes, and made by Luthiers. But within the close family there are the citterns, the mandolas and the modern mandolin - although the latter is quite different when played in the Appalachians. So what is a Theorbo, I know it is a lute with extra bass strings that are longer than than the base length of the instrument (perhaps on a swan neck - see, I do learn some things here g). Could there be a small Theorbo, perhaps we could call it a tenor Theorbo with a shorter base length such that one could octave the first and second courses and yet be within the breaking pitch? Or does that instrument have a different name? I don't present argument, I merely ask the question so I can better understand the conversation. One could easily design a smaller instrument with a 1st course an octave above the g that is normal, and then octave that g' as g. It would have a quite different timbre, but it may have been done. The low courses, of course, would yet be tenor, but it is an interesting thought. Enough, it seems to come down to nomenclature - and the differing attitudes as to what is properly a lute. Best, Jon PS, a bass and a tenor can sing the same song in the same key, the timbre may be different, but each is singing the music as he feels it. I'm sure the Old Ones would have enjoyed the variations on their compositions that come with the change of pitch and voice.
Re: Double 1st (HIP message included)
le 10.1.2004 15:42, Monica Hall à [EMAIL PROTECTED] a écrit : - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 11:14 AM Subject: Double 1st (HIP message included) Dear Jon, Yes, I think you still haven't grasped the fundamental point about the tuning of theorbos, and it is causing you no end of confusion. Forget the long neck. The long neck is a complete red herring. A theorbo is simply a lute with the first course (or first two courses) tuned an octave lower. That's all it is. Nothing else matters apart from the tuning. If you have a renaissance lute in G, with its first course tuned to the G above middle C, you have a lute. If you take off the first course, replace it with a thicker string, and tune it down an octave to the G below middle C, you have a theorbo. Same instrument, but different tuning. Where I think you are getting confused, is that you are imagining adding a string to the lute, which is an octave higher than the G above middle C, instead of an octave lower. It is true that theorbos generally had giraffe necks with an extra pegbox stuck on the end, and it is that feature which results in phrases like liuto attiorbato (theorboed lute). People associated the word theorbo with long necks and extra pegboxes. The word theorbe is a strange word in french however, and I never read a satisfying etymology of it. Italian readers here can maybe help with a meaning to give to the word tiorba. Has it something to do with the idea of re-entrant tuning ? Philippe I think you're doing the same, but it's causing you no end of confusion. It's the re-entrant tuning which defines the theorbo, not the long neck. Just for the record, if you have a lute with a long neck and extra pegbox, and it keeps its lute tuning (G above middle C), you have an archlute. If you have the same lute with a long neck, and you re-tune the first course (to G below middle C), you have a theorbo. I hope that helps. If you still have a copy of my message Double 1st (HIP message included) on 7th January, do have another look at it, and see if you understand it differently now. Best wishes, Stewart. - Original Message - From: Jon Murphy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, January 09, 2004 7:15 AM Subject: Re: Double 1st (HIP message included) Gentlemen, I am confused. And I'm not embarrassed by my confusion, the number of instruments with different names in the registry of lutes is a bit daunting. I am aware that guitars, violins and cellos - and all sorts of other similar instruments are categorized as lutes, and made by Luthiers. But within the close family there are the citterns, the mandolas and the modern mandolin - although the latter is quite different when played in the Appalachians. So what is a Theorbo, I know it is a lute with extra bass strings that are longer than than the base length of the instrument (perhaps on a swan neck - see, I do learn some things here g). Could there be a small Theorbo, perhaps we could call it a tenor Theorbo with a shorter base length such that one could octave the first and second courses and yet be within the breaking pitch? Or does that instrument have a different name? I don't present argument, I merely ask the question so I can better understand the conversation. One could easily design a smaller instrument with a 1st course an octave above the g that is normal, and then octave that g' as g. It would have a quite different timbre, but it may have been done. The low courses, of course, would yet be tenor, but it is an interesting thought. Enough, it seems to come down to nomenclature - and the differing attitudes as to what is properly a lute. Best, Jon PS, a bass and a tenor can sing the same song in the same key, the timbre may be different, but each is singing the music as he feels it. I'm sure the Old Ones would have enjoyed the variations on their compositions that come with the change of pitch and voice.
Re: Double 1st (HIP message included)
Stewart, Thank you, I'm going to have to print your fine letter in order to keep track of the terminology. You are right, I was confused in my assumption. But I won't say I'm fully with the musical logic. Yes, I think you still haven't grasped the fundamental point about the tuning of theorbos, and it is causing you no end of confusion. Forget the long neck. The long neck is a complete red herring. A theorbo is simply a lute with the first course (or first two courses) tuned an octave lower. That's all it is. Nothing else matters apart from the tuning. So that means that the theorbo isn't just a bass lute, the middle courses are tuned as a lute but the upper one are two drop an octave? (My original assumption, as you said, was the extra courses on the long neck, but as I first read this I assumed a drop of an octave on all courses, but a re-reading says the third and below are as on a lute). That makes the octaving of the strings logical, but still confuses me. If you have a renaissance lute in G, with its first course tuned to the G above middle C, you have a lute. OK, got that. (although I'm still not clear on the definition of a Renaissance lute in contrast to a Baroque or Medieval one, assuming all to be gut fretted and allowing the differences of tuning and number of courses). If you take off the first course, replace it with a thicker string, and tune it down an octave to the G below middle C, you have a theorbo. Same instrument, but different tuning. OK, I'm with you. Where I think you are getting confused, is that you are imagining adding a string to the lute, which is an octave higher than the G above middle C, instead of an octave lower. Actually, knowing strings, I was assuming the addition of an octave below the g', or a much smaller instrument in length that would take g'', but I see I was wrong. It is true that theorbos generally had giraffe necks with an extra pegbox stuck on the end, and it is that feature which results in phrases like liuto attiorbato (theorboed lute). People associated the word theorbo with long necks and extra pegboxes. I think you're doing the same, but it's causing you no end of confusion. It's the re-entrant tuning which defines the theorbo, not the long neck. OK, I'm a retired computer programmer at that level where we wrote the internal code. Re-entrant has a meaning to me that may be different than your use in the musical sense. But there may be a parallel. Do you mean that the theorbo tuning allows you to run up the instrument and re-enter the melody at a lower pitch? Ah, a Satori or Epiphany. I can't find the place in your message where you said the theorbo came to match the male voice, so it must have been another message or a message from another. I couldn't understand why one would do that instead of making a baritone lute by changing the length. Revelation, by dropping the first, and maybe the second, course an octave one can use the same instrument at a different basic pitch level. A bit complicated for free play, but if notated not so bad. One uses the lower registers with a retuning, and the third or second course becomes the treble, and the first a re-entry into the melody. Logical, the string changes would only have to be for the treble (now baritone) as the others would be in range. Hell Stewart, you got me thinking and I always get in trouble when I do that (and drink beer). Let me know if I'm close to understanding the instruments. Just for the record, if you have a lute with a long neck and extra pegbox, and it keeps its lute tuning (G above middle C), you have an archlute. If you have the same lute with a long neck, and you re-tune the first course (to G below middle C), you have a theorbo. When I had the unfortunate set of LaBella strings sent with my flat back kit, and tuned to e' at the top, yet with a lute spacing of relative intervals, did I have a lute (no wisecracks about the flat back and the fixed frets from purists)? Is the absolute pitch a defining criterion (don't see how it could be, absolute pitch wasn't prevalent in the days of the lute)? I hope that helps. If you still have a copy of my message Double 1st (HIP message included) on 7th January, do have another look at it, and see if you understand it differently now. That message is carefully saved among my archives. I'll not look at it now, a number of messages to go through and I don't have the privilege of staying up all night tonight as I have a harp rehearsal tomorrow. Best, Jon
Re: Double 1st (HIP message included)
Sorry, I meant Goess (also known as the Ebenthal MSs I believe). Facsimiles of all these tablature MSs are available from Tree Editions Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] rve.co.ukcc: Subject: Double 1st (HIP message included) 08/01/2004 23:02 Dear Martyn, I'm afraid I don't know anything at all about the Harrach book, but I'd certainly like to know more about it, if you or any one else on the list could help. All the best, Stewart. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2004 10:30 AM Subject: Re: Double 1st (HIP message included) - Have you got/seen the Harrach so-called theorbo/archlute book? - which are for which? The information in this email (and any attachment) may be for the intended recipient only. If you know you are not the intended recipient, please do not use or disclose the information in any way and please delete this email (and any attachment) from your system. Service of legal documents is not accepted by email
RE: Double 1st (HIP message included)
Thank-you Stewart, This has been the most en-lightening description of the theorbo I have ever seen. Only, one thing still puzzles me... One of the American girls on the list (is it Caroline Usher?) always ends her messages with a 'bumper-sticker' which reads, I brake for theorboes If it is only a case of first strings being an octave lower, how can she tell? !!! I slow down for anything pear-shaped! Best Wishes Ron (UK)
Re: Double 1st (HIP message included)
Plse read my earlier replies carefully. Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: mcast.net cc: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Double 1st (HIP message 07/01/2004 18:16included) martyn hodgson writes: You misunderstand the point: for larger theorboes, ie those that would normally be required to lower the 2nd an octave as well as the first, the physics doesn't work. I understood you perfectly the first time. I just don't agree. Neither do you, when it comes down to it. You insist that a theorbo string tuned to e above middle C is impossible. I say it was done all the time. In any event, you disagree with yourself, since you acknowledge that it is possible when you tell Stewart that any theorbo small enough to be tuned that way would defeat the advantage of having a theorbo. This is just an assertion of your own idea of what a theorbo has to sound like, perhaps colored by a refusal to consider local variations in pitch that would make the e possible on a theorbo larger than 75 cm. You speak of theorbos that would be required to lower the second course. I think this is irrelevant to the discussion. The re-entrant tuning did not persist because it was required but because players liked it and found that they could achieve wonderful idiomatic effects with it. Your citation to displaced octaves in bass lines is also of marginal relevance to octave jumps in melodic lines. I'm sure virtually every composer of the time in every medium wrote a bass line in which a note or two is in a different octave (either because of missing accidentals or to accomodate the range of the bass instrument), but you don't find such displacement in melodic parts for voice or violin or harpsichord or organ, or in the treble lines of lute music. The two things are not the same. Howard The information in this email (and any attachment) may be for the intended recipient only. If you know you are not the intended recipient, please do not use or disclose the information in any way and please delete this email (and any attachment) from your system. Service of legal documents is not accepted by email
Re: Double 1st (HIP message included)
You misunderstand the point: for larger theorboes, ie those that would normally be required to lower the 2nd an octave as well as the first, the physics doesn't work. Of course, for smaller theorboes (say, less than around 80cm) only the first would normally be required to be lowered (as the Old Ones, indeed, tell us). Might I also refer you to earlier communications on this; both in this forum, FoMRHI etc. Howard Posner [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: mcast.net cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Double 1st (HIP message 06/01/2004 17:16included) [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it is a chimera. Other than wishful thinking, there is no evidence for use of a theorbo second course strung in octaves; indeed, since the stress of a higher octave second would exceed the maximum breaking stress, it is highly unlikely. The second course at the upper octave was standard for English theorboes, some of which were pitched in A. So either your maximum breaking stress is overly pessimistic, or you've just proved that the English theorbo was also a chimera. HP The information in this email (and any attachment) may be for the intended recipient only. If you know you are not the intended recipient, please do not use or disclose the information in any way and please delete this email (and any attachment) from your system. Service of legal documents is not accepted by email
Re: Double 1st (HIP message included)
Stewart, I posted something about this over a year (or so) ago when it first emerged in this forum, so I'll not repeat myself other than to say it's simply a question of the physics: the highest courses were tuned down an octave because the string stress exceeded the breaking stress of the string material available (ref. various early sources). One can only have a second course at both octaves if the instrument is tuned well below its normally expected nominal tuning (eg tuning a small theorbo with stopped string length of, say, 75cm in A ) but clearly, as said earlier, this largely defeats the advantage of having a theorbo (well described by Piccini's version of the earliest development of the Chitarrone). There is very often a real danger of imposing our (modern) expectations on the music and reaching a conclusions not justified by the actual evidence. As mentioned earlier, I agree that there are a few passages (in other theorbo sources as well) which, on the face of it, might make us demur these days but, if we're at all serious about 'historical performance', we ought to defer to the evidence. As also said earlier, we do know that the Old Ones were content to accept octave transpositions in the all important bass and to accept compromise (see earlier re. odd inversions in some early intabulations) and generally seem to have been rather less pedantic In actual performance many of these seemingly bizarre effects are rather less startling; often due to use of the thumb on the all important bass line. Martyn Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] rve.co.ukcc: Subject: Double 1st (HIP message included) 07/01/2004 00:06 Dear Martyn, Many thanks for your message. The question of whether particular courses should be tuned in octaves or unisons is fundamental to our understanding of how music was played in the past. Whether we are discussing lutes, baroque guitars, theorboes, or even ukuleles, this same question will keep re-appearing. I am always willing to take a fresh look at whatever evidence we may have, and re-assess it, hopefully with an open mind. Unfortunately so far there is not enough evidence to keep everyone in agreement. The idea of a second course on the theorbo tuned in octaves was put forward by Andrea Damiani in his article, An hypothesis on the tuning of the Italian theorbo, in Federico Marincola's _Lutebot_ (1999). I find his arguments very persuasive, although I confess that, unlike Andrea Damiani, I have not actually experimented with this tuning myself. I wish I could, because I have never been convinced by Melii's music played on my single-strung theorbo with the first two courses tuned down the octave. I just cannot accept a trill ending like this (_Libro Quinto_, p. 51): |\|\ |\ |\|\ | |\ |\ |\| | | |\ | | | |. |\ | | 8 =0==3==|||= ===|3===||= =2==0==|||= =1==1=3|==1=||= =1==1==00==|=11=||= ===|==o=||= T The letter T under the 3rd event indicates a trill, which is completed with a termination involving the 3rd course. Played on a single-strung theorbo with the first two courses down an octave, it is musical nonsense. Here's another, this time from page 37: |\|\ |\ |\|\ |\ | |\ | | | | 8 =0= =|===|3==1=|= =2===|===|=|= =|===|=|= 0|===3=3=|=1===|= 3|=1==0=0|=|= =|===|=|= There are so many examples of this kind, hopping back and forth from one octave to the other, that I cannot believe that this is what any sane composer would write. Examples like these suggest that the 2nd course of Melii's tiorba was tuned at the high octave, yet on page 35 we have this: |\|\|\ |\ |\ |\ | |\| |\ |\ | | | | |\ |\ | | | | |\ |\ | | | |__| | | =0= =|===2
Double 1st (HIP message included)
to another in the bass lines of baroque lute music. I guess the sort of thing you have in mind is this downward scale in the Prelude from Weiss's Suite in F: | |\ |\ | |\ | | | | e_ca___c_a_c__ d_c_a|__|_ _|__|_ _a___|__|_ _|__|_ _|__|_ 8 9 8 9 10 |\ |\ |\ |\ | |\ ||\ | | || c_a c_a___c,_|_d_c_a_|_ e_c_a|___d_b_a___|_ _|_c_a___|_ _|_c_|_ _e__e|___|_ 10 The low C# is not available, so Weiss plays at the 6th course instead. Yes, it works fine, if we just go for it without worrying about which octave it is at. I can cope with that sort of thing, because somehow the music works in spite of such apparent quirks. Ultimately it's a personal judgement. I can readily accept that passage from Weiss's Prelude, but I still feel unhappy with Melii's problem passages. Jumping from one octave to another in the bass is acceptable - it can be very attractive - but it is a different matter with a melody at the top of the texture. I would very much like the chance to experiment with Damiani's tuning, because ultimately the proof of this particular pudding may have to be in the eating, if it's the only proof we've got. :-) Best wishes, Stewart. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2004 11:13 AM Subject: Re: Double 1st (HIP message included) Stewart, I posted something about this over a year (or so) ago when it first emerged in this forum, so I'll not repeat myself other than to say it's simply a question of the physics: the highest courses were tuned down an octave because the string stress exceeded the breaking stress of the string material available (ref. various early sources). One can only have a second course at both octaves if the instrument is tuned well below its normally expected nominal tuning (eg tuning a small theorbo with stopped string length of, say, 75cm in A ) but clearly, as said earlier, this largely defeats the advantage of having a theorbo (well described by Piccini's version of the earliest development of the Chitarrone). There is very often a real danger of imposing our (modern) expectations on the music and reaching a conclusions not justified by the actual evidence. As mentioned earlier, I agree that there are a few passages (in other theorbo sources as well) which, on the face of it, might make us demur these days but, if we're at all serious about 'historical performance', we ought to defer to the evidence. As also said earlier, we do know that the Old Ones were content to accept octave transpositions in the all important bass and to accept compromise (see earlier re. odd inversions in some early intabulations) and generally seem to have been rather less pedantic In actual performance many of these seemingly bizarre effects are rather less startling; often due to use of the thumb on the all important bass line. Martyn Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] rve.co.ukcc: Subject: Double 1st (HIP message included) 07/01/2004 00:06 Dear Martyn, Many thanks for your message. The question of whether particular courses should be tuned in octaves or unisons is fundamental to our understanding of how music was played in the past. Whether we are discussing lutes, baroque guitars, theorboes, or even ukuleles, this same question will keep re-appearing. I am always willing to take a fresh look at whatever evidence we may have, and re-assess it, hopefully with an open mind. Unfortunately so far there is not enough evidence to keep everyone in agreement. The idea of a second course on the theorbo tuned in octaves was put forward by Andrea Damiani in his article, An hypothesis on the tuning of the Italian theorbo, in Federico Marincola's _Lutebot_ (1999). I find his arguments very persuasive, although I confess that, unlike Andrea Damiani, I have not actually experimented with this tuning myself. I wish I could, because I have never been convinced by Melii's music played on my single-strung theorbo with the first two courses tuned down the octave. I just cannot accept a trill ending like this (_Libro Quinto_, p. 51): |\|\ |\ |\|\ | |\ |\ |\| | | |\ | | | |. |\ | | 8 =0==3
Re: Double 1st (HIP message included)
- Original Message - From: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 1:29 PM Subject: Re: Double 1st (HIP message included) On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 02:47 PM, Martin Shepherd wrote: ...we should not ignore the evidence just because it suits our prejudices. I am quite willing to ignore it if it fails to suit my needs! If gut strings sound too dull and heavy in the bass, or fail to stay in tune because of the weather, or fray and break too readily in the treble, I am not going to use them. If I can get a better sound playing thumb-one way as opposed to thumb-some other way, I will do it. I've been playing the lute long enough to know what works for me and what doesn't, and it's that consideration that shapes my playing, not the tyranny of history (not even the benign dictatorship of history!). I'm not suggesting that anyone should be subject to any kind of dictatorship. I explicitly said that we ought to be guided by our own ideas (we can't have any others, after all) in evaluating our experiments. If we try gut bass strings and they don't work, we will have to use something else - but at the same time we might wonder why they don't work and try to find some that *do* work. Of course the most important thing is the music,! I agree, but learning to reproduce old masters, fascinating as that may be, is only a small part of learning how to play the lute. The painting analogy is only useful up to a point. A musician has to create something new each time, basing the creation on a set of (imperfect and incomplete) instructions - the score. Dowland's tablature will not teach anyone to play the lute, any more than having exactly the right lute and exactly the right strings will guarantee a good performance. But that doesn't mean that we should not study such information as the score does provide (ornament signs, for example). We may still choose to ignore some of this information, of course (still no dictatorship here). ...we wouldn't be doing what we're doing if we didn't believe that the technology which makes the music possible wasn't inportant too otherwise we'd all be playing it on the electric guitar... I dont know about electric guitar, but a lot of orchestras, bands, brass ensembles and soloists of all types and from all imaginable backgrounds, do play early music on modern instruments. We lutenists are not the only ones making music with this old repertoire. Are you going to say all the rest of the world is wrong? If you are, then I would have to suggest that you do so because it suits your, uh, I hate that word predjudices, let's say your likes and dislikes. Again, I'm not saying what people should and should not do. Personally I am quite happy for people to play lute music on any instrument which comes to hand (including the electric guitar), but that doesn't preclude me from being intensely interested in historical information about what lutes may have been like in the past. I just noted that, as an observer of the modern revival of the lute, some unhistorical things have been discarded (metal frets, single second course) while others (wound strings) still remain. The double first course was common in the past but is almost unheard of today, so I was merely encouraging others to try it. Incidentally I don't own a lute with a double first and have never played on one in public - but I have tried it, and I may try it more seriously next time. When building lutes, I have found that the closer I get to the historical models, the better they sound, so I have some faith that the old guys knew what they were doing, and histori! cal research is not in vain. Sorry, no flames, David - thanks for your input. Martin
Re: Double 1st (HIP message included)
Stewart, This matter was discussed at length a year or so ago: it is a chimera. Other than wishful thinking, there is no evidence for use of a theorbo second course strung in octaves; indeed, since the stress of a higher octave second would exceed the maximum breaking stress, it is highly unlikely. You could, I suppose, adopt a very low nominal tuning to allow the physics to work but then the lower fingered courses would be at such a low stress that the very sound the instrument was invented to produce (a stronger, more focussed bass) would be lost There are examples of this octave melodic shift in other theorbo tablatures and, bearing in mind their willingness to transpose basses an octave, there's really no reason to suppose the Old Ones were as intransigent as us on these matters (also see earlier communications). rgds Martyn Martin Shepherd [EMAIL PROTECTED]To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] net.co.uk cc: Subject: Re: Double 1st (HIP message 04/01/2004 19:47 included) - Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 January 2004 16:24 Subject: Double 1st Dear Sterling, There seems to have been considerable variety in instruments known as theorboes. Single or double strings on the fingerboard is one of many variants. From the purely musical point of view (i.e. recreation of different notes, not tone quality), the only significant difference between a single-strung theorbo and a double-strung one would be if the double course consisted of two strings tuned an octave apart. Andrea Dammiani has suggested that this tuning is likely for the theorbo music of Melii, where there are some odd melodic shifts from one octave to another. A single-strung theorbo would not produce the same (desired?) effect. Dear Stewart, You're quite right that we tend to oversimplify, and someone has already hauled me over the coals for suggesting that Italian theorboes were double, French single, etc. - more of which another time... I know what you mean about there being no difference in *notes* between single and double, but tone quality (and perhaps quantity) is important, which is why I worry about the tendency of modern lutenists to avoid double firsts. I see it as something which has just been quietly swept under the carpet, just as gut frets, thumb-under on renaissance lute, thumb-out on baroque lute, double frets, double second, no wound strings, etc., etc., have been in the past (and some of them still into the present). If we're serious about what lutes might have sounded like in the past, I think we have to try some things which seem a bit odd. We have to be realistic about the success or otherwise of our experiments, of course, and we can't expect to get it right first time (gut stringing being an example of a still unresolved problem). But I think you would agree that we should not ignore the evidence just because it suits our prejudices. Of course the most important thing is the music,! and I feel we've made considerable progress in understanding that (though there's still a long way to go) - but we wouldn't be doing what we're doing if we didn't believe that the technology which makes the music possible wasn't inportant too, otherwise we'd all be playing it on the electric guitar... Enough of that. Having tried a double first, I can say that it makes a different sound, and requires a different (well, more careful) technique. If it was what Dowland Co. had in mind, it seems more than a historical curiousity and more like something we should take seriously. Best wishes to all, Martin The information in this email (and any attachment) may be for the intended recipient only. If you know you are not the intended recipient, please do not use or disclose the information in any way and please delete this email (and any attachment) from your system. Service of legal documents is not accepted by email
Re: Double 1st (HIP message included)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: it is a chimera. Other than wishful thinking, there is no evidence for use of a theorbo second course strung in octaves; indeed, since the stress of a higher octave second would exceed the maximum breaking stress, it is highly unlikely. The second course at the upper octave was standard for English theorboes, some of which were pitched in A. So either your maximum breaking stress is overly pessimistic, or you've just proved that the English theorbo was also a chimera. HP
Contnl. double 1st?
I really would like to know whether or not there is evidence of continental 15-16 c. usage of double 1st courses on the lute? Arne.
Re: Contnl. double 1st?
not the 16th but 17th centuries italian lutes (liuto francesa) had a double first course (for example the famous Stradivari) Thomas Am Die, 2004-01-06 um 20.42 schrieb Arne Keller: I really would like to know whether or not there is evidence of continental 15-16 c. usage of double 1st courses on the lute? Arne. -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Double 1st (HIP message included)
: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2004 2:14 PM Subject: Re: Double 1st (HIP message included) Stewart, This matter was discussed at length a year or so ago: it is a chimera. Other than wishful thinking, there is no evidence for use of a theorbo second course strung in octaves; indeed, since the stress of a higher octave second would exceed the maximum breaking stress, it is highly unlikely. You could, I suppose, adopt a very low nominal tuning to allow the physics to work but then the lower fingered courses would be at such a low stress that the very sound the instrument was invented to produce (a stronger, more focussed bass) would be lost There are examples of this octave melodic shift in other theorbo tablatures and, bearing in mind their willingness to transpose basses an octave, there's really no reason to suppose the Old Ones were as intransigent as us on these matters (also see earlier communications). rgds Martyn
Re: Contnl. double 1st?
Haven't you read my citation from Virdung? By the way, the lute on the title page of Besard's Isagoge has a double first course. On the other hand Attaignant says (Tres brève ...): Le lutz a XI cordes ordonnez par six ordres... and Enguilbert de Marnef (1556): .. a cause que l'on met deux cordes pour une par tout, fors au son le plus haut, ... Like Virdung, he mentions lutes with 7 courses. Rainer adS Arne Keller wrote: Again: Double 1st course is English usage/invention, only later spread to continent. Right? Arne.
Re: Double 1st
- Original Message - From: sterling price [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 January 2004 04:25 Subject: Re: Double 1st Weren't many re-entrant theorbos strung with a double first? And especially bass lutes? I have been wanting to try a theorbo with all double courses. I have heard that they were more common historicaly than now. Sterling Price __ Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 http://search.yahoo.com/top2003 Dear Sterling, With a reentrant tuning there would be no reason not to have a double first, and indeed most surviving Italian theorboes have 6 double courses on the fingerboard and 8 single basses. This is in contrast, as you say, to the modern fashion of having single strings throughout (and often 7 courses on the fingerboard). One exception seems to be Castaldi, who is pictured in his book with a single-strung (and very small) theorbo. French theorboes are thought to have been single-strung (evidence from iconography) and Mace's English theorbo was double strung throughout, like his lute (though there are plenty of arguments to be had about whether there was a difference between the two and if so, what it was - if my memory serves me correctly they both had 12 courses). With normal lute tuning there is plenty of evidence from surviving instruments and iconography showing double firsts. The original Venere lute which I used as a model (Vienna, C36) seems to have its original bridge, with 7 courses, all double. The same is true of the treble lute in the same collection (C39) with a 44cm string length, though in this case there is doubt about the originality of the bridge. The Liuto Attiorbato by Matteo Sellas in the VA, London has 14 pegs in the lower pegbox, so 7 double courses on the fingerboard. A century earlier there is no shortage of paintings showing 6c lutes with a double first - in fact it would be interesting to know just what proportion of paintings of 6c lutes show single/double firsts - has anyone looked at this? Best wishes, Martin
Double 1st
Dear Sterling, There seems to have been considerable variety in instruments known as theorboes. Single or double strings on the fingerboard is one of many variants. From the purely musical point of view (i.e. recreation of different notes, not tone quality), the only significant difference between a single-strung theorbo and a double-strung one would be if the double course consisted of two strings tuned an octave apart. Andrea Dammiani has suggested that this tuning is likely for the theorbo music of Melii, where there are some odd melodic shifts from one octave to another. A single-strung theorbo would not produce the same (desired?) effect. If you wander into a reasonably-sized music shop today, you will see a wide assortment of instruments, particularly guitars: different sizes, different numbers of strings, acoustic/ semi-acoustic, electric, etc. When considering lutes and theorboes over a period of anything from 100 to 300 years, it is not surprising that there was considerable variety then too. It is tempting to over-simplify, and to try to identify standard instruments, whereas the reality was often more complex than that. Best wishes, Stewart. - Original Message - From: sterling price [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 4:25 AM Subject: Re: Double 1st Weren't many re-entrant theorbos strung with a double first? And especially bass lutes? I have been wanting to try a theorbo with all double courses. I have heard that they were more common historicaly than now. Sterling Price __ Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 http://search.yahoo.com/top2003
Re: Double 1st (HIP message included)
- Original Message - From: Stewart McCoy [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Lute Net [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 05 January 2004 16:24 Subject: Double 1st Dear Sterling, There seems to have been considerable variety in instruments known as theorboes. Single or double strings on the fingerboard is one of many variants. From the purely musical point of view (i.e. recreation of different notes, not tone quality), the only significant difference between a single-strung theorbo and a double-strung one would be if the double course consisted of two strings tuned an octave apart. Andrea Dammiani has suggested that this tuning is likely for the theorbo music of Melii, where there are some odd melodic shifts from one octave to another. A single-strung theorbo would not produce the same (desired?) effect. Dear Stewart, You're quite right that we tend to oversimplify, and someone has already hauled me over the coals for suggesting that Italian theorboes were double, French single, etc. - more of which another time... I know what you mean about there being no difference in *notes* between single and double, but tone quality (and perhaps quantity) is important, which is why I worry about the tendency of modern lutenists to avoid double firsts. I see it as something which has just been quietly swept under the carpet, just as gut frets, thumb-under on renaissance lute, thumb-out on baroque lute, double frets, double second, no wound strings, etc., etc., have been in the past (and some of them still into the present). If we're serious about what lutes might have sounded like in the past, I think we have to try some things which seem a bit odd. We have to be realistic about the success or otherwise of our experiments, of course, and we can't expect to get it right first time (gut stringing being an example of a still unresolved problem). But I think you would agree that we should not ignore the evidence just because it suits our prejudices. Of course the most important thing is the music,! and I feel we've made considerable progress in understanding that (though there's still a long way to go) - but we wouldn't be doing what we're doing if we didn't believe that the technology which makes the music possible wasn't inportant too, otherwise we'd all be playing it on the electric guitar... Enough of that. Having tried a double first, I can say that it makes a different sound, and requires a different (well, more careful) technique. If it was what Dowland Co. had in mind, it seems more than a historical curiousity and more like something we should take seriously. Best wishes to all, Martin
Re: Double 1st (HIP message included)
I would support your point in general - just an addendum: It's somehow like a relation between pupil and teacher: We need the teacher to learn the basics, technique and - yes! to get a feeling for the music but at a certain point in the education we also need to emanzipate ourselfs from our teachers and try to become our own musical personality. Otherwise we would just be copies, some better, some worse. The problem is at what point one should feel ready for amanzipating. The lute is a world of it's own and one's life cannot be long enough to just get more than a glimpse. So a teacher can be very helpfull as a guiding hand. That's the same with historic lute and us nowadays. It's okay to feel free from historic forces but it's okay for me to rely on the secure guidance of the historic. Best wishes Thomas Am Mon, 2004-01-05 um 22.29 schrieb David Rastall: On Sunday, January 4, 2004, at 02:47 PM, Martin Shepherd wrote: ...we should not ignore the evidence just because it suits our prejudices. I am quite willing to ignore it if it fails to suit my needs! If gut strings sound too dull and heavy in the bass, or fail to stay in tune because of the weather, or fray and break too readily in the treble, I am not going to use them. If I can get a better sound playing thumb-one way as opposed to thumb-some other way, I will do it. I've been playing the lute long enough to know what works for me and what doesn't, and it's that consideration that shapes my playing, not the tyranny of history (not even the benign dictatorship of history!). Of course the most important thing is the music,! I agree, but learning to reproduce old masters, fascinating as that may be, is only a small part of learning how to play the lute. ...we wouldn't be doing what we're doing if we didn't believe that the technology which makes the music possible wasn't inportant too otherwise we'd all be playing it on the electric guitar... I dont know about electric guitar, but a lot of orchestras, bands, brass ensembles and soloists of all types and from all imaginable backgrounds, do play early music on modern instruments. We lutenists are not the only ones making music with this old repertoire. Are you going to say all the rest of the world is wrong? If you are, then I would have to suggest that you do so because it suits your, uh, I hate that word predjudices, let's say your likes and dislikes. I await the flames. David Rastall -- Thomas Schall Niederhofheimer Weg 3 D-65843 Sulzbach 06196/74519 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.lautenist.de / www.tslaute.de/weiss --
Re: Double 1st (HIP message included)
Hi David: Here is the Heresy of Heresies: I use different weights of clear monofilament fishing line. I can but it in bulk cheaply, it is available in many different diameters, I have very little problem with it and if it does mess up it is easy enough and cheap enough to just change it out. It does not mash down or lose its elasticity. The best part: I don't agonize over the stuff. If I lose a fret because the knot failed I just roll off a bunch more mono and away we go. Not that it matters much, but I suppose this admission, or revelation if you prefer, relegates me to the back room as an ahistorical bore that does not have a clue and should not be allowed to even look at a Lute let alone own one and try to play it. Vance Wood. - Original Message - From: David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Vance Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, January 05, 2004 6:00 PM Subject: Re: Double 1st (HIP message included) Hi Vance, Nylon frets, eh? That's downright heretical! To answer your question, I always think I'm going to get flamed when I disagreee with lute players on certain subjects, and the sacredness of history is one of them. Over the years, I've come to regard music history as more and more interesting the more I learn about it, but less and less of a lifeline. I fear that many of the Wise on the list don't see it that way. ...I hope this discussion does not cause the usual slash and burn so common around here when something seems to offend someone else's idea of the way things should be. So do I. I think sometimes we forget that the Lute has a long and often obscure history where the people, instruments, strings and music were in constant change and evolution. To think that there is one sacred way to play is just plain ignorant and narrow sighted. The same can be said about the instrument itself. The more I try to learn about the Lute the more I realize how much I and We don't, and possible cannot, know about it. Well, I'm one of those people who believes that nearly all theoretical questions regarding music can be answered on stage. I've been thinking about this lately, as I just recently joined a local music society in Washington DC that consists almost entirely of people trained in 19th-century Romantic music. I'm the only performing member on the lute. When I get up to play the lute for these folks, I pretty much know that they are not very knowledgeable in music history pre-Bach. I have to make the lute music real to them, yet I can't rely on any common historical knowledge to do it. It's turning into an interesting challenge. BTW, I'm just curious: what do you use for nylon fret material? guitar strings maybe? David R
Re: Double 1st
Weren't many re-entrant theorbos strung with a double first? And especially bass lutes? I have been wanting to try a theorbo with all double courses. I have heard that they were more common historicaly than now. Sterling Price __ Do you Yahoo!? Find out what made the Top Yahoo! Searches of 2003 http://search.yahoo.com/top2003
