Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Rami]

Janek Kozicki janek_listy@... writes:

 
 Liviu Andronic said: (by the date of Fri, 5 Mar 2010 14:09:40 +)
 
  [1] http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-users-UqbJ+GOpo4+hPH1hqNUYSQ at 
public.gmane.org/msg77889.html
 
 thanks, by reading this I see that the maxima buffer must be
 seamlessly integrated with document, in order to not confuse people.
 
 But, OTOH, to use any algebra system in efficient way, the user has to
 know which one he is using. I am not going to write an interface that
 translates every kind of math+lyx input into every kind of
 octave/maxima/maple/mathematica input. There's too many different
 specific things, and I never used maple/octave/mathematica, I don't
 know their formatting.
 
 The simplest way for me is to allow a maxima session in lyx, and add
 communication between both. Copying/using/referencing equations in both
 directions between maxima buffer - document. Entering equations in
 document and pasting them to maxima buffer (for later, more complex
 use) for people familiar with entering equation using lyx/latex
 commands and the opposite for people who wish to enter them using
 maxima input format.


Hello,

I wish to know if any improvement was made since 2010. today I tried to use 
maxima inside lyx and thought about how great can it be if there would be 
full support for it. (for example - entering matrix to maxima or saving 
varibles)

it would be wonderfull

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Pavel Sanda]

Rami wrote:
 I wish to know if any improvement was made since 2010. today I tried to use 

No. It would need someone to work on it. Perhpas you? :)
Pavel

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Rami]

Janek Kozicki  writes:

> 
> Liviu Andronic said: (by the date of Fri, 5 Mar 2010 14:09:40 +)
> 
> > [1] http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-users-UqbJ+GOpo4+hPH1hqNUYSQ  
public.gmane.org/msg77889.html
> 
> thanks, by reading this I see that the maxima buffer must be
> seamlessly integrated with document, in order to not confuse people.
> 
> But, OTOH, to use any algebra system in efficient way, the user has to
> know which one he is using. I am not going to write an interface that
> translates every kind of math+lyx input into every kind of
> octave/maxima/maple/mathematica input. There's too many different
> specific things, and I never used maple/octave/mathematica, I don't
> know their formatting.
> 
> The simplest way for me is to allow a maxima session in lyx, and add
> communication between both. Copying/using/referencing equations in both
> directions between maxima buffer <-> document. Entering equations in
> document and pasting them to maxima buffer (for later, more complex
> use) for people familiar with entering equation using lyx/latex
> commands and the opposite for people who wish to enter them using
> maxima input format.


Hello,

I wish to know if any improvement was made since 2010. today I tried to use 
maxima inside lyx and thought about how great can it be if there would be 
full support for it. (for example - entering matrix to maxima or saving 
varibles)

it would be wonderfull

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Pavel Sanda]

Rami wrote:
> I wish to know if any improvement was made since 2010. today I tried to use 

No. It would need someone to work on it. Perhpas you? :)
Pavel

better maxima integration, devel.

[Janek Kozicki]

Hi,

I'm thinking about the possibility of using lyx as my frontend to
maxima. Texmacs doesn't suit me, because I used gvim+latex for years.

Since I used latex for long time it would be logical to start using
lyx in order to interact with maxima. I didn't ever use lyx before,
because gvim was good enough for me. But this time I need a maxima
interface with latex capabilities.

I see now, that such integration would require at least a running
maxima session in the background. 

I'm quite experienced with latex and C++.

I am not sure if I decide to go this path, I want to investigate and
judge the difficulty of writing patches that will scratch my itch.


I don't know what is the current state of lyx+maxima integration, and
I asked for ML archives in order to check this.

best regards
-- 
Janek Kozicki   http://janek.kozicki.pl/  |

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Helge Hafting]

Janek Kozicki wrote:
[...]

I see now, that such integration would require at least a running
maxima session in the background. 


I'm quite experienced with latex and C++.

I am not sure if I decide to go this path, I want to investigate and
judge the difficulty of writing patches that will scratch my itch.


I don't know what is the current state of lyx+maxima integration, and
I asked for ML archives in order to check this.


Not sure what you want to do, but there is some LyX integration with 
maxima. You can write a formula in LyX, and then use this menu:

Edit-Math-Use Computer algebra system-Maxima

This will do transformations such as:
1+1+x+x  becomes 1+1+x+x=2x+2
Calculus:
\int x^2 dx becomes \int x^2=\frac{x^3}{3}
\int\int\frac{x}{y} turns into \frac{x^2 \log{y}}{2}

\frac{d}{dx}\frac{1+x}{1-x}
turns into
\frac{x+1}{\left(1-x\right)^{2}}+\frac{1}{1-x}

And so on. Apparently, there are many limitations though. Maxima can do
more, the communication between LyX and maxima is limited. You can't do 
matrix multiplication, for example.


Helge Hafting

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[rgheck]

On 03/05/2010 07:29 AM, Helge Hafting wrote:

Janek Kozicki wrote:
[...]

I see now, that such integration would require at least a running
maxima session in the background.
I'm quite experienced with latex and C++.

I am not sure if I decide to go this path, I want to investigate and
judge the difficulty of writing patches that will scratch my itch.


I don't know what is the current state of lyx+maxima integration, and
I asked for ML archives in order to check this.


Not sure what you want to do, but there is some LyX integration with 
maxima. You can write a formula in LyX, and then use this menu:

Edit-Math-Use Computer algebra system-Maxima

This will do transformations such as:
1+1+x+x  becomes 1+1+x+x=2x+2
Calculus:
\int x^2 dx becomes \int x^2=\frac{x^3}{3}
\int\int\frac{x}{y} turns into \frac{x^2 \log{y}}{2}

\frac{d}{dx}\frac{1+x}{1-x}
turns into
\frac{x+1}{\left(1-x\right)^{2}}+\frac{1}{1-x}

And so on. Apparently, there are many limitations though. Maxima can do
more, the communication between LyX and maxima is limited. You can't 
do matrix multiplication, for example.


All of this is correct, but the infrastructure for doing more is there. 
Look at src/mathed/MathExtern.cpp and the various maxima() methods.


We'd be very, very happy to have someone work on this.

rh

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Liviu Andronic]

On 3/5/10, Janek Kozicki janek_li...@wp.pl wrote:
  I don't know what is the current state of lyx+maxima integration, and
  I asked for ML archives in order to check this.

Some time ago there was a lengthy discussion about CAS support in LyX
[1] (including Maxima), which also contained some design ideas on
possible future development.

Regards
Liviu

[1] http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-us...@lists.lyx.org/msg77889.html

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Janek Kozicki]

rgheck said: (by the date of Fri, 05 Mar 2010 07:46:39 -0500)

 On 03/05/2010 07:29 AM, Helge Hafting wrote:
  And so on. Apparently, there are many limitations though. Maxima can do
  more, the communication between LyX and maxima is limited. You can't 
  do matrix multiplication, for example.
 
 All of this is correct, but the infrastructure for doing more is there. 
 Look at src/mathed/MathExtern.cpp and the various maxima() methods.
 
 We'd be very, very happy to have someone work on this.

A warm welcome is very encouraging. I'll check that file.

I know nothing about how it is done, yet, but still I have some
simple vision, correct me when I'm wrong:

- to have a working connection with background maxima, we need a
  maxima buffer. This buffer (a list of %inputs) is not a part of
  latex/LyX document, so it should be stored somewhere. I was
  thinking about putting it into .tex (.lyx) file as a comment, with
  some magic keyword, like following:

% LYX+MAXIMA buffer, do not edit by hand, START
%
% * [wxMaxima: input   start ] */
% e1:ellipse : x^2/a^2+y^2/b^2=1;
% e2:line: A*(x-x0)+B*(y-y0)=0;
% /* [wxMaxima: input   end   ] */
%
% LYX+MAXIMA buffer, do not edit by hand, END

the first two characters (the % ) are always stripped, the rest is
treated as-is: the maxima input file format.

- there could be a split-window with just the maxima input buffer.

- interesting parts from the maxima buffer would be copied into
  latex/lyx document, by using some sort of referencing.

- plot2d/3d would generate .ps files, provided correct gnuplot
  parameters to generate .ps files (which I happen to know).
  Pictures generated in this way would be entered into document
  structure in the same manner as the equations.

- compiling lyx+maxima document, would mean to do some preprocessing:
+ first execute the maxima buffer in fresh maxima session. This
  would calculate stuff, and generate .ps files.
+ enter the referenced equations in their latest form (freshly
  calculated) into their proper places in the latex document
+ then continue the normal compilation, like invoking pdflatex
  or others.

my head is bulging with ideas, but the time is really short.
I'll check what you've told me, tell me more. Do not expect me to be fast.

-- 
Janek Kozicki   http://janek.kozicki.pl/  |

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[rgheck]

On 03/05/2010 09:20 AM, Janek Kozicki wrote:

rgheck said: (by the date of Fri, 05 Mar 2010 07:46:39 -0500)

   

On 03/05/2010 07:29 AM, Helge Hafting wrote:
 

And so on. Apparently, there are many limitations though. Maxima can do
more, the communication between LyX and maxima is limited. You can't
do matrix multiplication, for example.

   

All of this is correct, but the infrastructure for doing more is there.
Look at src/mathed/MathExtern.cpp and the various maxima() methods.

We'd be very, very happy to have someone work on this.
 

A warm welcome is very encouraging. I'll check that file.

I know nothing about how it is done, yet, but still I have some
simple vision, correct me when I'm wrong:

   
Since I don't use maxima etc myself, I don't have a lot of thoughts 
about this. What happens at present is that LaTeX that is entered into a 
math inset gets translated into maxima's input format; LyX calls maxima 
to do the calculation; retrieves the result, which is presumably in 
maxima's output format; and then translates that back into LaTeX, for 
inclusion in the document. Improving this means improving the 
translation mechanisms, mostly, so that LyX is able to formulate more 
complex queries and understand more complex answers.


What you are proposing, I think, is somewhat different and looks almost 
like one of LyX's external insets. Indeed, something very like it 
could surely be implemented using external templates, which define a way 
that LyX can interact with external programs. These insets are inserted 
using InsertFileExternal Material, and we have support for several 
external programs now. The difference from what you are proposing is 
that the information would not be stored in LyX but rather in external 
text files referenced from within the LyX document. These would also be 
edited in an external text editor, but this can be called from within 
LyX, from the context menu. Have a look at lib/external_templates, which 
defines several of these things, and at chapter 6 of the Customization 
manual.


My sense is that, for full maxima integration, this is definitely the 
easiest way to go. The disadvantage, compared to the current system, is 
that there's no integration with the math insets.


rh

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Janek Kozicki]

Liviu Andronic said: (by the date of Fri, 5 Mar 2010 14:09:40 +)


 [1] http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-us...@lists.lyx.org/msg77889.html

thanks, by reading this I see that the maxima buffer must be
seamlessly integrated with document, in order to not confuse people.

But, OTOH, to use any algebra system in efficient way, the user has to
know which one he is using. I am not going to write an interface that
translates every kind of math+lyx input into every kind of
octave/maxima/maple/mathematica input. There's too many different
specific things, and I never used maple/octave/mathematica, I don't
know their formatting.

The simplest way for me is to allow a maxima session in lyx, and add
communication between both. Copying/using/referencing equations in both
directions between maxima buffer - document. Entering equations in
document and pasting them to maxima buffer (for later, more complex
use) for people familiar with entering equation using lyx/latex
commands and the opposite for people who wish to enter them using
maxima input format.
-- 
Janek Kozicki   http://janek.kozicki.pl/  |

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Janek Kozicki]

Liviu Andronic said: (by the date of Fri, 5 Mar 2010 14:09:40 +)


 [1] http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-us...@lists.lyx.org/msg77889.html

thanks, by reading this I see that the maxima buffer must be
seamlessly integrated with document, in order to not confuse people.

But, OTOH, to use any algebra system in efficient way, the user has to
know which one he is using. I am not going to write an interface that
translates every kind of math+lyx input into every kind of
octave/maxima/maple/mathematica input. There's too many different
specific things, and I never used maple/octave/mathematica, I don't
know their formatting.

The simplest way for me is to allow a maxima session in lyx, and add
communication between both. Copying/using/referencing equations in both
directions between maxima buffer - document. Entering equations in
document and pasting them to maxima buffer (for later, more complex
use) for people familiar with entering equation using lyx/latex
commands and the opposite for people who wish to enter them using
maxima input format.
-- 
Janek Kozicki   http://janek.kozicki.pl/  |

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Janek Kozicki]

rgheck said: (by the date of Fri, 05 Mar 2010 10:18:35 -0500)

 Since I don't use maxima etc myself, I don't have a lot of thoughts 
 about this. What happens at present is that LaTeX that is entered into a 
 math inset gets translated into maxima's input format; LyX calls maxima 
 to do the calculation; retrieves the result, which is presumably in 
 maxima's output format; and then translates that back into LaTeX, for 
 inclusion in the document. Improving this means improving the 
 translation mechanisms, mostly, so that LyX is able to formulate more 
 complex queries and understand more complex answers.

besides improving that communication, the only missing thing is to
be able to declare variables within maxima, and operate on them
later. It means a running maxima session, instead of
standalone/separate calls for each thing. Those separate calls mean
that everything is forgot after the call to maxima is done.

Ideally I would want to derive calculations within lyx, while
writing comments about it. All with the beauty of latex.

Perhaps I'll start with this communication formatting thing that you
explained, it should be an easy start to get feel of the workings.

 What you are proposing, I think, is somewhat different and looks almost 
 like one of LyX's external insets. Indeed, something very like it 
 could surely be implemented using external templates, which define a way 
 that LyX can interact with external programs. These insets are inserted 
 using InsertFileExternal Material, and we have support for several 
 external programs now. The difference from what you are proposing is 
 that the information would not be stored in LyX but rather in external 
 text files referenced from within the LyX document. These would also be 
 edited in an external text editor, but this can be called from within 
 LyX, from the context menu. Have a look at lib/external_templates, which 
 defines several of these things, and at chapter 6 of the Customization 
 manual.
 
 My sense is that, for full maxima integration, this is definitely the 
 easiest way to go. The disadvantage, compared to the current system, is 
 that there's no integration with the math insets.

I see. I would prefer to stay within lyx boundaries. A split window,
with the maxima buffer or such. I don't know yet. Storing input in
external file is better than putting it into .lyx as comments,
I didn't know this is possible. maxima runs well even in a text
terminal, it should be possible to pipe this somehow.

I should look in the code now, or else it becomes just babbling. The
time limitation allows me to do it only on fridays, only an hour or
two per week, so I hopefully will come with more interesting
questions next week.

-- 
Janek Kozicki   http://janek.kozicki.pl/  |

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[rgheck]

On 03/05/2010 10:23 AM, Janek Kozicki wrote:

Liviu Andronic said: (by the date of Fri, 5 Mar 2010 14:09:40 +)


   

[1] http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-us...@lists.lyx.org/msg77889.html
 

thanks, by reading this I see that the maxima buffer must be
seamlessly integrated with document, in order to not confuse people.

But, OTOH, to use any algebra system in efficient way, the user has to
know which one he is using. I am not going to write an interface that
translates every kind of math+lyx input into every kind of
octave/maxima/maple/mathematica input. There's too many different
specific things, and I never used maple/octave/mathematica, I don't
know their formatting.

   
These all have their own separate routines, at present. It's all very 
modular. You could improve the maxima interface without touching the 
other stuff.


rh

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Guenter Milde]

On 2010-03-05, Janek Kozicki wrote:
 rgheck said: (by the date of Fri, 05 Mar 2010 10:18:35 -0500)

...

 besides improving that communication, the only missing thing is to
 be able to declare variables within maxima, and operate on them
 later. It means a running maxima session, instead of
 standalone/separate calls for each thing. 

 Ideally I would want to derive calculations within lyx, while
 writing comments about it. All with the beauty of latex.

 Perhaps I'll start with this communication formatting thing that you
 explained, it should be an easy start to get feel of the workings.

 What you are proposing, I think, is somewhat different and looks almost 
 like one of LyX's external insets.
...
 My sense is that, for full maxima integration, this is definitely the 
 easiest way to go. The disadvantage, compared to the current system, is 
 that there's no integration with the math insets.

 I see. I would prefer to stay within lyx boundaries. A split window,
 with the maxima buffer or such. I don't know yet. Storing input in
 external file is better than putting it into .lyx as comments,
 I didn't know this is possible. maxima runs well even in a text
 terminal, it should be possible to pipe this somehow.

One more thing to consider is using the lyxserver pipes. E.g. I wrote
some experimental LyX output for swiginac (a Python wrapper of the
ginac C++ library, http://swiginac.berlios.de/) using my LyXServer Python
package (available via the LyX wiki) but the other way is also feasible,
as the lyxserver is bidirectional. 

Günter

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Janek Kozicki]

Guenter Milde said: (by the date of Fri, 5 Mar 2010 20:07:45 + (UTC))

 One more thing to consider is using the lyxserver pipes. E.g. I wrote
 some experimental LyX output for swiginac (a Python wrapper of the
 ginac C++ library, http://swiginac.berlios.de/) using my LyXServer Python
 package (available via the LyX wiki) but the other way is also feasible,
 as the lyxserver is bidirectional. 

wow, the lyx's architecture is impressive! Thanks for another hint.

-- 
Janek Kozicki   http://janek.kozicki.pl/  |

better maxima integration, devel.

[Janek Kozicki]

Hi,

I'm thinking about the possibility of using lyx as my frontend to
maxima. Texmacs doesn't suit me, because I used gvim+latex for years.

Since I used latex for long time it would be logical to start using
lyx in order to interact with maxima. I didn't ever use lyx before,
because gvim was good enough for me. But this time I need a maxima
interface with latex capabilities.

I see now, that such integration would require at least a running
maxima session in the background. 

I'm quite experienced with latex and C++.

I am not sure if I decide to go this path, I want to investigate and
judge the difficulty of writing patches that will scratch my itch.


I don't know what is the current state of lyx+maxima integration, and
I asked for ML archives in order to check this.

best regards
-- 
Janek Kozicki   http://janek.kozicki.pl/  |

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Helge Hafting]

Janek Kozicki wrote:
[...]

I see now, that such integration would require at least a running
maxima session in the background. 


I'm quite experienced with latex and C++.

I am not sure if I decide to go this path, I want to investigate and
judge the difficulty of writing patches that will scratch my itch.


I don't know what is the current state of lyx+maxima integration, and
I asked for ML archives in order to check this.


Not sure what you want to do, but there is some LyX integration with 
maxima. You can write a formula in LyX, and then use this menu:

Edit->Math->Use Computer algebra system->Maxima

This will do transformations such as:
"1+1+x+x"  becomes "1+1+x+x=2x+2"
Calculus:
"\int x^2 dx" becomes "\int x^2=\frac{x^3}{3}"
"\int\int\frac{x}{y} turns into \frac{x^2 \log{y}}{2}

\frac{d}{dx}\frac{1+x}{1-x}
turns into
\frac{x+1}{\left(1-x\right)^{2}}+\frac{1}{1-x}

And so on. Apparently, there are many limitations though. Maxima can do
more, the communication between LyX and maxima is limited. You can't do 
matrix multiplication, for example.


Helge Hafting

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[rgheck]

On 03/05/2010 07:29 AM, Helge Hafting wrote:

Janek Kozicki wrote:
[...]

I see now, that such integration would require at least a running
maxima session in the background.
I'm quite experienced with latex and C++.

I am not sure if I decide to go this path, I want to investigate and
judge the difficulty of writing patches that will scratch my itch.


I don't know what is the current state of lyx+maxima integration, and
I asked for ML archives in order to check this.


Not sure what you want to do, but there is some LyX integration with 
maxima. You can write a formula in LyX, and then use this menu:

Edit->Math->Use Computer algebra system->Maxima

This will do transformations such as:
"1+1+x+x"  becomes "1+1+x+x=2x+2"
Calculus:
"\int x^2 dx" becomes "\int x^2=\frac{x^3}{3}"
"\int\int\frac{x}{y} turns into \frac{x^2 \log{y}}{2}

\frac{d}{dx}\frac{1+x}{1-x}
turns into
\frac{x+1}{\left(1-x\right)^{2}}+\frac{1}{1-x}

And so on. Apparently, there are many limitations though. Maxima can do
more, the communication between LyX and maxima is limited. You can't 
do matrix multiplication, for example.


All of this is correct, but the infrastructure for doing more is there. 
Look at src/mathed/MathExtern.cpp and the various maxima() methods.


We'd be very, very happy to have someone work on this.

rh

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Liviu Andronic]

On 3/5/10, Janek Kozicki  wrote:
>  I don't know what is the current state of lyx+maxima integration, and
>  I asked for ML archives in order to check this.
>
Some time ago there was a lengthy discussion about CAS support in LyX
[1] (including Maxima), which also contained some design ideas on
possible future development.

Regards
Liviu

[1] http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-us...@lists.lyx.org/msg77889.html

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Janek Kozicki]

rgheck said: (by the date of Fri, 05 Mar 2010 07:46:39 -0500)

> On 03/05/2010 07:29 AM, Helge Hafting wrote:
> > And so on. Apparently, there are many limitations though. Maxima can do
> > more, the communication between LyX and maxima is limited. You can't 
> > do matrix multiplication, for example.
> >
> All of this is correct, but the infrastructure for doing more is there. 
> Look at src/mathed/MathExtern.cpp and the various maxima() methods.
> 
> We'd be very, very happy to have someone work on this.

A warm welcome is very encouraging. I'll check that file.

I know nothing about how it is done, yet, but still I have some
simple vision, correct me when I'm wrong:

- to have a working connection with background maxima, we need a
  maxima buffer. This buffer (a list of %inputs) is not a part of
  latex/LyX document, so it should be stored somewhere. I was
  thinking about putting it into .tex (.lyx) file as a comment, with
  some magic keyword, like following:

% LYX+MAXIMA buffer, do not edit by hand, START
%
% * [wxMaxima: input   start ] */
% e1:ellipse : x^2/a^2+y^2/b^2=1;
% e2:line: A*(x-x0)+B*(y-y0)=0;
% /* [wxMaxima: input   end   ] */
%
% LYX+MAXIMA buffer, do not edit by hand, END

the first two characters (the "% ") are always stripped, the rest is
treated as-is: the maxima input file format.

- there could be a split-window with just the maxima input buffer.

- interesting parts from the maxima buffer would be copied into
  latex/lyx document, by using some sort of referencing.

- plot2d/3d would generate .ps files, provided correct gnuplot
  parameters to generate .ps files (which I happen to know).
  Pictures generated in this way would be entered into document
  structure in the same manner as the equations.

- compiling lyx+maxima document, would mean to do some preprocessing:
+ first execute the maxima buffer in fresh maxima session. This
  would calculate stuff, and generate .ps files.
+ enter the referenced equations in their latest form (freshly
  calculated) into their proper places in the latex document
+ then continue the normal compilation, like invoking pdflatex
  or others.

my head is bulging with ideas, but the time is really short.
I'll check what you've told me, tell me more. Do not expect me to be fast.

-- 
Janek Kozicki   http://janek.kozicki.pl/  |

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[rgheck]

On 03/05/2010 09:20 AM, Janek Kozicki wrote:

rgheck said: (by the date of Fri, 05 Mar 2010 07:46:39 -0500)

   

On 03/05/2010 07:29 AM, Helge Hafting wrote:
 

And so on. Apparently, there are many limitations though. Maxima can do
more, the communication between LyX and maxima is limited. You can't
do matrix multiplication, for example.

   

All of this is correct, but the infrastructure for doing more is there.
Look at src/mathed/MathExtern.cpp and the various maxima() methods.

We'd be very, very happy to have someone work on this.
 

A warm welcome is very encouraging. I'll check that file.

I know nothing about how it is done, yet, but still I have some
simple vision, correct me when I'm wrong:

   
Since I don't use maxima etc myself, I don't have a lot of thoughts 
about this. What happens at present is that LaTeX that is entered into a 
math inset gets translated into maxima's input format; LyX calls maxima 
to do the calculation; retrieves the result, which is presumably in 
maxima's output format; and then translates that back into LaTeX, for 
inclusion in the document. Improving this means improving the 
translation mechanisms, mostly, so that LyX is able to formulate more 
complex queries and understand more complex answers.


What you are proposing, I think, is somewhat different and looks almost 
like one of LyX's "external" insets. Indeed, something very like it 
could surely be implemented using external templates, which define a way 
that LyX can interact with external programs. These insets are inserted 
using Insert>File>External Material, and we have support for several 
external programs now. The difference from what you are proposing is 
that the information would not be stored in LyX but rather in external 
text files referenced from within the LyX document. These would also be 
edited in an external text editor, but this can be called from within 
LyX, from the context menu. Have a look at lib/external_templates, which 
defines several of these things, and at chapter 6 of the Customization 
manual.


My sense is that, for full maxima integration, this is definitely the 
easiest way to go. The disadvantage, compared to the current system, is 
that there's no integration with the math insets.


rh

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Janek Kozicki]

Liviu Andronic said: (by the date of Fri, 5 Mar 2010 14:09:40 +)


> [1] http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-us...@lists.lyx.org/msg77889.html

thanks, by reading this I see that the maxima buffer must be
seamlessly integrated with document, in order to not confuse people.

But, OTOH, to use any algebra system in efficient way, the user has to
know which one he is using. I am not going to write an interface that
translates every kind of math+lyx input into every kind of
octave/maxima/maple/mathematica input. There's too many different
specific things, and I never used maple/octave/mathematica, I don't
know their formatting.

The simplest way for me is to allow a maxima session in lyx, and add
communication between both. Copying/using/referencing equations in both
directions between maxima buffer <-> document. Entering equations in
document and pasting them to maxima buffer (for later, more complex
use) for people familiar with entering equation using lyx/latex
commands and the opposite for people who wish to enter them using
maxima input format.
-- 
Janek Kozicki   http://janek.kozicki.pl/  |

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Janek Kozicki]

Liviu Andronic said: (by the date of Fri, 5 Mar 2010 14:09:40 +)


> [1] http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-us...@lists.lyx.org/msg77889.html

thanks, by reading this I see that the maxima buffer must be
seamlessly integrated with document, in order to not confuse people.

But, OTOH, to use any algebra system in efficient way, the user has to
know which one he is using. I am not going to write an interface that
translates every kind of math+lyx input into every kind of
octave/maxima/maple/mathematica input. There's too many different
specific things, and I never used maple/octave/mathematica, I don't
know their formatting.

The simplest way for me is to allow a maxima session in lyx, and add
communication between both. Copying/using/referencing equations in both
directions between maxima buffer <-> document. Entering equations in
document and pasting them to maxima buffer (for later, more complex
use) for people familiar with entering equation using lyx/latex
commands and the opposite for people who wish to enter them using
maxima input format.
-- 
Janek Kozicki   http://janek.kozicki.pl/  |

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Janek Kozicki]

rgheck said: (by the date of Fri, 05 Mar 2010 10:18:35 -0500)

> Since I don't use maxima etc myself, I don't have a lot of thoughts 
> about this. What happens at present is that LaTeX that is entered into a 
> math inset gets translated into maxima's input format; LyX calls maxima 
> to do the calculation; retrieves the result, which is presumably in 
> maxima's output format; and then translates that back into LaTeX, for 
> inclusion in the document. Improving this means improving the 
> translation mechanisms, mostly, so that LyX is able to formulate more 
> complex queries and understand more complex answers.

besides improving that communication, the "only" missing thing is to
be able to declare variables within maxima, and operate on them
later. It means a running maxima session, instead of
standalone/separate calls for each thing. Those separate calls mean
that everything is forgot after the call to maxima is done.

Ideally I would want to derive calculations within lyx, while
writing comments about it. All with the beauty of latex.

Perhaps I'll start with this communication formatting thing that you
explained, it should be an easy start to get feel of the workings.

> What you are proposing, I think, is somewhat different and looks almost 
> like one of LyX's "external" insets. Indeed, something very like it 
> could surely be implemented using external templates, which define a way 
> that LyX can interact with external programs. These insets are inserted 
> using Insert>File>External Material, and we have support for several 
> external programs now. The difference from what you are proposing is 
> that the information would not be stored in LyX but rather in external 
> text files referenced from within the LyX document. These would also be 
> edited in an external text editor, but this can be called from within 
> LyX, from the context menu. Have a look at lib/external_templates, which 
> defines several of these things, and at chapter 6 of the Customization 
> manual.
> 
> My sense is that, for full maxima integration, this is definitely the 
> easiest way to go. The disadvantage, compared to the current system, is 
> that there's no integration with the math insets.

I see. I would prefer to stay within lyx boundaries. A split window,
with the maxima buffer or such. I don't know yet. Storing input in
external file is better than putting it into .lyx as comments,
I didn't know this is possible. maxima runs well even in a text
terminal, it should be possible to pipe this somehow.

I should look in the code now, or else it becomes just babbling. The
time limitation allows me to do it only on fridays, only an hour or
two per week, so I hopefully will come with more interesting
questions next week.

-- 
Janek Kozicki   http://janek.kozicki.pl/  |

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[rgheck]

On 03/05/2010 10:23 AM, Janek Kozicki wrote:

Liviu Andronic said: (by the date of Fri, 5 Mar 2010 14:09:40 +)


   

[1] http://www.mail-archive.com/lyx-us...@lists.lyx.org/msg77889.html
 

thanks, by reading this I see that the maxima buffer must be
seamlessly integrated with document, in order to not confuse people.

But, OTOH, to use any algebra system in efficient way, the user has to
know which one he is using. I am not going to write an interface that
translates every kind of math+lyx input into every kind of
octave/maxima/maple/mathematica input. There's too many different
specific things, and I never used maple/octave/mathematica, I don't
know their formatting.

   
These all have their own separate routines, at present. It's all very 
modular. You could improve the maxima interface without touching the 
other stuff.


rh

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Guenter Milde]

On 2010-03-05, Janek Kozicki wrote:
> rgheck said: (by the date of Fri, 05 Mar 2010 10:18:35 -0500)

...

> besides improving that communication, the "only" missing thing is to
> be able to declare variables within maxima, and operate on them
> later. It means a running maxima session, instead of
> standalone/separate calls for each thing. 

> Ideally I would want to derive calculations within lyx, while
> writing comments about it. All with the beauty of latex.

> Perhaps I'll start with this communication formatting thing that you
> explained, it should be an easy start to get feel of the workings.

>> What you are proposing, I think, is somewhat different and looks almost 
>> like one of LyX's "external" insets.
...
>> My sense is that, for full maxima integration, this is definitely the 
>> easiest way to go. The disadvantage, compared to the current system, is 
>> that there's no integration with the math insets.

> I see. I would prefer to stay within lyx boundaries. A split window,
> with the maxima buffer or such. I don't know yet. Storing input in
> external file is better than putting it into .lyx as comments,
> I didn't know this is possible. maxima runs well even in a text
> terminal, it should be possible to pipe this somehow.

One more thing to consider is using the lyxserver pipes. E.g. I wrote
some experimental "LyX output" for swiginac (a Python wrapper of the
ginac C++ library, http://swiginac.berlios.de/) using my LyXServer Python
package (available via the LyX wiki) but the other way is also feasible,
as the lyxserver is bidirectional. 

Günter

Re: better maxima integration, devel.

[Janek Kozicki]

Guenter Milde said: (by the date of Fri, 5 Mar 2010 20:07:45 + (UTC))

> One more thing to consider is using the lyxserver pipes. E.g. I wrote
> some experimental "LyX output" for swiginac (a Python wrapper of the
> ginac C++ library, http://swiginac.berlios.de/) using my LyXServer Python
> package (available via the LyX wiki) but the other way is also feasible,
> as the lyxserver is bidirectional. 

wow, the lyx's architecture is impressive! Thanks for another hint.

-- 
Janek Kozicki   http://janek.kozicki.pl/  |