Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Jose' Matos wrote: On Friday 09 June 2006 12:20, Helge Hafting wrote: I think no lines is the better way. No old stuff breaks. There isn't even an update of the document format. I don't understand you here. There is nothing related with an update for the file format. Exactly, so there is wery little reason to _not_ go away from the current all lines on default. The question here, as far I understand, it is one about templates. When you insert a table, it appears a table that follows a given template. The problem is even more general than simply about tables, when I inset a figure float I would like to have immediately a figure float with an empty figure centered and the cursor in caption. Until now all options are hardwired, the idea is to allow a selection, the possibility to set a default. A template is the best of all - if it ever happens. If I remember correctly, there already is a patch for hardwired no-line tables, which is much better than the current all-lines tables. So why not apply it immediately? It is a definitive improvement. Now, if a nice system with templates for tables and other stuff is made, then that is even better. No reason to not apply the no-lines patch right away, for those templates won't happen in a long while unless someone has started working on them. If such templates happens before 1.5.0 - nice! If not, it'd be nice to _at least_ have the no-lines tables instead of all-lines. This change will only after future documents, the existing tables will not change not matter what we decide. I know. Or did I misunderstood what you said? I think we agree about this, it is Lars that seems to hold back. Helge Hafting
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
On Tuesday 13 June 2006 13:16, Helge Hafting wrote: Or did I misunderstood what you said? I think we agree about this, it is Lars that seems to hold back. I would like not to forget this issue. Please could you fill a bugzilla entry for 1.5.0. I agree that something needs to be done before 1.5.0. Helge Hafting -- José Abílio
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Jose' Matos wrote: On Friday 09 June 2006 12:20, Helge Hafting wrote: I think "no lines" is the better way. No old stuff breaks. There isn't even an update of the document format. I don't understand you here. There is nothing related with an update for the file format. Exactly, so there is wery little reason to _not_ go away from the current "all lines on" default. The question here, as far I understand, it is one about templates. When you insert a table, it appears a table that follows a given template. The problem is even more general than simply about tables, when I inset a figure float I would like to have immediately a figure float with an empty figure centered and the cursor in caption. Until now all options are hardwired, the idea is to allow a selection, the possibility to set a default. A template is the best of all - if it ever happens. If I remember correctly, there already is a patch for hardwired "no-line" tables, which is much better than the current "all-lines" tables. So why not apply it immediately? It is a definitive improvement. Now, if a nice system with templates for tables and other stuff is made, then that is even better. No reason to not apply the "no-lines" patch right away, for those templates won't happen in a long while unless someone has started working on them. If such templates happens before 1.5.0 - nice! If not, it'd be nice to _at least_ have the "no-lines" tables instead of "all-lines". This change will only after future documents, the existing tables will not change not matter what we decide. I know. Or did I misunderstood what you said? I think we agree about this, it is Lars that seems to hold back. Helge Hafting
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
On Tuesday 13 June 2006 13:16, Helge Hafting wrote: > > Or did I misunderstood what you said? > > > > I think we agree about this, it is Lars that seems to hold back. I would like not to forget this issue. Please could you fill a bugzilla entry for 1.5.0. I agree that something needs to be done before 1.5.0. > Helge Hafting -- José Abílio
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Edwin Leuven wrote: Andre Poenitz wrote: Fine with me. I find i anooying myself. others? I'm also always deleting the lines, but only in order to get the booktabs ERT stuff in. My take on it is: add a border style combo to the tabular create dialog, which lets your chose: no borders, grid, booktabs (etc.). Shouldn't be too hard to implement (once the booktabs branch was merged). Jürgen
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Juergen Spitzmueller wrote: Edwin Leuven wrote: Andre Poenitz wrote: Fine with me. I find i anooying myself. others? I'm also always deleting the lines, but only in order to get the booktabs ERT stuff in. My take on it is: add a border style combo to the tabular create dialog, which lets your chose: no borders, grid, booktabs (etc.). Shouldn't be too hard to implement (once the booktabs branch was merged). I second that. That's a very good idea. I always delete the lines when creating tables but I know my boss preferes the many lines style :) So a solution for both camps would be optimal. Regards, Stephan --
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: Edwin Leuven [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: | I think one of the solutions i and others outlined would be better. | | but that is cheating since it involves a new feature. | | the question is what is better: | | 1. have lines the way we have now | 2. have no lines I am reluctant of changing something that has been the default for a long time. If 2 is better than 1 is not the only criteria for changing anything. I think no lines is the better way. No old stuff breaks. There isn't even an update of the document format. A user who want some lines will have to add them, instead of removing all the ones he doesn't want, which is good. Lines are fine, but you hardly ever wants _all_ of them. Even better would be a system where you can choose (or even make) table styles. Then, I could set the default to one line above table, one below table, and one below the heading. No lines by default is a nice starting point though. Helge Hafting
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
On Friday 09 June 2006 12:20, Helge Hafting wrote: I think no lines is the better way. No old stuff breaks. There isn't even an update of the document format. I don't understand you here. There is nothing related with an update for the file format. The question here, as far I understand, it is one about templates. When you insert a table, it appears a table that follows a given template. The problem is even more general than simply about tables, when I inset a figure float I would like to have immediately a figure float with an empty figure centered and the cursor in caption. Until now all options are hardwired, the idea is to allow a selection, the possibility to set a default. This change will only after future documents, the existing tables will not change not matter what we decide. Or did I misunderstood what you said? -- José Abílio
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Jose' == Jose' Matos [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Jose' The question here, as far I understand, it is one about Jose' templates. When you insert a table, it appears a table that Jose' follows a given template. One idea I had about templates was to have the possibility to add insets to .lyx/templates/default.lyx or some other files that would be copied when creating a new inset of this type. So, if you put a figure inset with a bogus caption and a centered graphics inset above, a copy of this would be used when inserting a new figure float. The advantage is that no UI is needed and the possibilities are very large. For tables, the situation is a bit more complicated, since there are variable sizes. However, the corner cells of the template tabular could be taken as model for the corners, the first side cells ((2,1), (1,2), (m,2), (2,m)) as model for sides and some middle cell as model for the center cells. JMarc
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
On Thu, Jun 08, 2006 at 08:54:27AM +0200, Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: Edwin Leuven [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: | I think one of the solutions i and others outlined would be better. | | but that is cheating since it involves a new feature. | | the question is what is better: | | 1. have lines the way we have now | 2. have no lines I am reluctant of changing something that has been the default for a long time. If 2 is better than 1 is not the only criteria for changing anything. IMNSHO 2 is better than 1 even cosidering the long standing tradition of 'many lines'. Andre'
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
On Fri, 9 Jun 2006, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: Jose' == Jose' Matos [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Jose' The question here, as far I understand, it is one about Jose' templates. When you insert a table, it appears a table that Jose' follows a given template. One idea I had about templates was to have the possibility to add insets to .lyx/templates/default.lyx or some other files that would be copied when creating a new inset of this type. So, if you put a figure inset with a bogus caption and a centered graphics inset above, a copy of this would be used when inserting a new figure float. Funny, I just had that idea myself. I didn't get the bit about some other files that would be copied when creating a new inset of this type.. However, couldn't we use labels (or a section heading) to denote different styles? For instance, let's say .lyx/templates/default.lyx contains the section heading: Tabular style empty and just after the heading there's an empty table. Then, when creating a table, it's possible to select Tabular style empty from a dropdown list, and a copy of what's after the section heading is inserted in the current document. This could be generalized quite a bit actually for both tables, figures and algorithms. For tables, the situation is a bit more complicated, since there are variable sizes. However, the corner cells of the template tabular could be taken as model for the corners, the first side cells ((2,1), (1,2), (m,2), (2,m)) as model for sides and some middle cell as model for the center cells. Yeah, it is more complicated for tables... but just being able to easily insert parts from a template file would be very convenient. Ideal would of course be to able to define the tabular style separately, and then make sure that all tables automatically follow one style. /Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Edwin Leuven wrote: > Andre Poenitz wrote: > > Fine with me. I find i anooying myself. > > others? I'm also always deleting the lines, but only in order to get the booktabs ERT stuff in. My take on it is: add a "border style" combo to the tabular create dialog, which lets your chose: no borders, grid, booktabs (etc.). Shouldn't be too hard to implement (once the booktabs branch was merged). Jürgen
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Juergen Spitzmueller wrote: Edwin Leuven wrote: Andre Poenitz wrote: Fine with me. I find i anooying myself. others? I'm also always deleting the lines, but only in order to get the booktabs ERT stuff in. My take on it is: add a "border style" combo to the tabular create dialog, which lets your chose: no borders, grid, booktabs (etc.). Shouldn't be too hard to implement (once the booktabs branch was merged). I second that. That's a very good idea. I always delete the lines when creating tables but I know my boss preferes the "many lines" style :) So a solution for both camps would be optimal. Regards, Stephan --
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: Edwin Leuven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: | > I think one of the solutions i and others outlined would be better. | | but that is cheating since it involves a new feature. | | the question is what is better: | | 1. have lines the way we have now | 2. have no lines I am reluctant of changing something that has been the default for a long time. If 2 is better than 1 is not the only criteria for changing anything. I think "no lines" is the better way. No old stuff breaks. There isn't even an update of the document format. A user who want some lines will have to add them, instead of removing all the ones he doesn't want, which is good. Lines are fine, but you hardly ever wants _all_ of them. Even better would be a system where you can choose (or even make) table styles. Then, I could set the default to "one line above table, one below table, and one below the heading". "No lines by default" is a nice starting point though. Helge Hafting
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
On Friday 09 June 2006 12:20, Helge Hafting wrote: > I think "no lines" is the better way. No old stuff breaks. There > isn't even an update of the document format. I don't understand you here. There is nothing related with an update for the file format. The question here, as far I understand, it is one about templates. When you insert a table, it appears a table that follows a given template. The problem is even more general than simply about tables, when I inset a figure float I would like to have immediately a figure float with an empty figure centered and the cursor in caption. Until now all options are hardwired, the idea is to allow a selection, the possibility to set a default. This change will only after future documents, the existing tables will not change not matter what we decide. Or did I misunderstood what you said? -- José Abílio
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
> "Jose'" == Jose' Matos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Jose'> The question here, as far I understand, it is one about Jose'> templates. When you insert a table, it appears a table that Jose'> follows a given template. One idea I had about templates was to have the possibility to add insets to .lyx/templates/default.lyx or some other files that would be copied when creating a new inset of this type. So, if you put a figure inset with a bogus caption and a centered graphics inset above, a copy of this would be used when inserting a new figure float. The advantage is that no UI is needed and the possibilities are very large. For tables, the situation is a bit more complicated, since there are variable sizes. However, the corner cells of the template tabular could be taken as model for the corners, the first side cells ((2,1), (1,2), (m,2), (2,m)) as model for sides and some middle cell as model for the center cells. JMarc
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
On Thu, Jun 08, 2006 at 08:54:27AM +0200, Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: > Edwin Leuven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > | Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: > | > I think one of the solutions i and others outlined would be better. > | > | but that is cheating since it involves a new feature. > | > | the question is what is better: > | > | 1. have lines the way we have now > | 2. have no lines > > I am reluctant of changing something that has been the default for a > long time. If 2 is better than 1 is not the only criteria for changing > anything. IMNSHO 2 is better than 1 even cosidering the long standing tradition of 'many lines'. Andre'
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
On Fri, 9 Jun 2006, Jean-Marc Lasgouttes wrote: "Jose'" == Jose' Matos <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Jose'> The question here, as far I understand, it is one about Jose'> templates. When you insert a table, it appears a table that Jose'> follows a given template. One idea I had about templates was to have the possibility to add insets to .lyx/templates/default.lyx or some other files that would be copied when creating a new inset of this type. So, if you put a figure inset with a bogus caption and a centered graphics inset above, a copy of this would be used when inserting a new figure float. Funny, I just had that idea myself. I didn't get the bit about "some other files that would be copied when creating a new inset of this type.". However, couldn't we use labels (or a section heading) to denote different styles? For instance, let's say .lyx/templates/default.lyx contains the section heading: Tabular style empty and just after the heading there's an empty table. Then, when creating a table, it's possible to select "Tabular style empty" from a dropdown list, and a copy of what's after the section heading is inserted in the current document. This could be generalized quite a bit actually for both tables, figures and algorithms. For tables, the situation is a bit more complicated, since there are variable sizes. However, the corner cells of the template tabular could be taken as model for the corners, the first side cells ((2,1), (1,2), (m,2), (2,m)) as model for sides and some middle cell as model for the center cells. Yeah, it is more complicated for tables... but just being able to easily insert parts from a template file would be very convenient. Ideal would of course be to able to define the tabular style separately, and then make sure that all tables automatically follow one style. /Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-768 39 44 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Edwin Leuven [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: | I think one of the solutions i and others outlined would be better. | | but that is cheating since it involves a new feature. | | the question is what is better: | | 1. have lines the way we have now | 2. have no lines I am reluctant of changing something that has been the default for a long time. If 2 is better than 1 is not the only criteria for changing anything. -- Lgb
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: I am reluctant of changing something that has been the default for a long time. i understand that, but in this case i think that the default is very idiosyncratic and an inconvenience for most. i would really urge you to allow this in...
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Edwin Leuven wrote: Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: I am reluctant of changing something that has been the default for a long time. i understand that, but in this case i think that the default is very idiosyncratic and an inconvenience for most. i would really urge you to allow this in... How about polling users on the user list? /Paul
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Edwin Leuven [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: | I am reluctant of changing something that has been the default for a | long time. | | i understand that, but in this case i think that the default is very | idiosyncratic and an inconvenience for most. | | i would really urge you to allow this in... I do not _really_ see the urgency. Please let me ponder on this for a bit. Be sure to create a bugzilla case. -- Lgb
RE: Re: long standing annoyance with tables
i just send a mail to the user list... -Original Message- From: news on behalf of Paul A. Rubin Sent: Thu 6/8/06 16:48 To: lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org Subject: Re: long standing annoyance with tables Edwin Leuven wrote: Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: I am reluctant of changing something that has been the default for a long time. i understand that, but in this case i think that the default is very idiosyncratic and an inconvenience for most. i would really urge you to allow this in... How about polling users on the user list? /Paul
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Leuven, E. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | i just send a mail to the user list... That will just be a poll... just as an input to the decision process. -- Lgb
RE: Re: long standing annoyance with tables
That will just be a poll... just as an input to the decision process. that's the idea...
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Edwin Leuven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: | > I think one of the solutions i and others outlined would be better. | | but that is cheating since it involves a new feature. | | the question is what is better: | | 1. have lines the way we have now | 2. have no lines I am reluctant of changing something that has been the default for a long time. If 2 is better than 1 is not the only criteria for changing anything. -- Lgb
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: I am reluctant of changing something that has been the default for a long time. i understand that, but in this case i think that the default is very idiosyncratic and an inconvenience for most. i would really urge you to allow this in...
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Edwin Leuven wrote: Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: I am reluctant of changing something that has been the default for a long time. i understand that, but in this case i think that the default is very idiosyncratic and an inconvenience for most. i would really urge you to allow this in... How about polling users on the user list? /Paul
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Edwin Leuven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: | > I am reluctant of changing something that has been the default for a | > long time. | | i understand that, but in this case i think that the default is very | idiosyncratic and an inconvenience for most. | | i would really urge you to allow this in... I do not _really_ see the urgency. Please let me ponder on this for a bit. Be sure to create a bugzilla case. -- Lgb
RE: Re: long standing annoyance with tables
i just send a mail to the user list... -Original Message- From: news on behalf of Paul A. Rubin Sent: Thu 6/8/06 16:48 To: lyx-devel@lists.lyx.org Subject: Re: long standing annoyance with tables Edwin Leuven wrote: > Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: >> I am reluctant of changing something that has been the default for a >> long time. > > i understand that, but in this case i think that the default is very > idiosyncratic and an inconvenience for most. > > i would really urge you to allow this in... > How about polling users on the user list? /Paul
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
"Leuven, E." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | i just send a mail to the user list... That will just be a poll... just as an input to the decision process. -- Lgb
RE: Re: long standing annoyance with tables
> That will just be a poll... just as an input to the decision process. that's the idea...
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
On Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 10:12:27PM +0200, Edwin Leuven wrote: is that it gets inserted with silly lines the attached patch gets rid of them can i commit? please?! Fine with me. I find i anooying myself. Andre'
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Andre Poenitz wrote: Fine with me. I find i anooying myself. others? i really think that this should go in...
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Edwin Leuven [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | Andre Poenitz wrote: | Fine with me. I find i anooying myself. | | others? | | i really think that this should go in... I think one of the solutions i and others outlined would be better. -- Lgb
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: I think one of the solutions i and others outlined would be better. but that is cheating since it involves a new feature. the question is what is better: 1. have lines the way we have now 2. have no lines
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
On Thu, Jun 01, 2006 at 10:12:27PM +0200, Edwin Leuven wrote: > is that it gets inserted with silly lines > > the attached patch gets rid of them > > can i commit? please?! Fine with me. I find i anooying myself. Andre'
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Andre Poenitz wrote: Fine with me. I find i anooying myself. others? i really think that this should go in...
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Edwin Leuven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | Andre Poenitz wrote: | > Fine with me. I find i anooying myself. | | others? | | i really think that this should go in... I think one of the solutions i and others outlined would be better. -- Lgb
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: I think one of the solutions i and others outlined would be better. but that is cheating since it involves a new feature. the question is what is better: 1. have lines the way we have now 2. have no lines
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: Edwin Leuven [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | is that it gets inserted with silly lines Why are they silly? i think that nobody uses line formatting like this. like paul the first thing i do after inserting a table is selecting the whole thing and unset all the lines. my guess is that 99.9% of people do this... | the attached patch gets rid of them Doesn't this change default behaviour that we have had for a very long time? yeah, call it progress... | can i commit? please?! whining does not help. damn
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
On Friday 02 June 2006 07:10, Edwin Leuven wrote: Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: Edwin Leuven [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | is that it gets inserted with silly lines Why are they silly? i think that nobody uses line formatting like this. like paul the first thing i do after inserting a table is selecting the whole thing and unset all the lines. my guess is that 99.9% of people do this... And where did you get those statistics? I would not complain if instead you implemented some type of system as Paul suggested. Come on, it can not be too difficult. Friday in progress, in case you wonder... Tables need a lot more work. | the attached patch gets rid of them Doesn't this change default behaviour that we have had for a very long time? yeah, call it progress... You call progress to a system where you can not even colapse two rows in the same column? | can i commit? please?! whining does not help. damn Good try. -- José Abílio
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Paul A. Rubin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: | Edwin Leuven [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | | is that it gets inserted with silly lines | Why are they silly? | | I think it's generally considered bad form to have many horizontal | lines, or *any* vertical lines, in a table. I confess that the first | thing I do after inserting a table is to block the whole thing and | delete the borders, then typically add just a horizontal line under | the headings row. So I for one would be happier if tables were born | naked as babies. Note that I am not against this change, I just want us to be aware of implications and have well founded reasons for the change. That said, IMHO we should make the behaviour in LyX as close as possible to what you get from using the LaTeX styles/classes manually. So if LaTeX does not use borders by default, neither should we. | | the attached patch gets rid of them | Doesn't this change default behaviour that we have had for a very | long | time? | | Yes, although it's default behavior of the interface rather than | default behavior of the compilation process, if that makes sense. | (Put another way, it will not affect any existing documents.) | | However, perhaps there should be a preference option whether new | tables are generated with/without lines (say, a check box in the table | insertion dialog and maybe something that says remember this choice)? Something like a user settable default tabular style? -- Lgb
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: Note that I am not against this change, I just want us to be aware of implications and have well founded reasons for the change. That said, IMHO we should make the behaviour in LyX as close as possible to what you get from using the LaTeX styles/classes manually. So if LaTeX does not use borders by default, neither should we. in latex a tabular comes without lines. they are added using \hline (or variations on this) moreover, i think that it unlikely that people want the lines as we set them now and my guess is that most people do what paul does. i do that as well and i know that those around me who use lyx do the same. (have you ever seen a table formatted like that in a publication?) i am sure that the current line configuration wasn't the result of careful study of common user behavior but more a historical accident although i agree that having some table styles with a user configuration would be nice, it is not high on my todo list (well behaved copy/paste comes before that for example) in the meantime i think that it is cleaner and friendler to the user to insert a blank table
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: Edwin Leuven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | is that it gets inserted with silly lines Why are they silly? i think that nobody uses line formatting like this. like paul the first thing i do after inserting a table is selecting the whole thing and unset all the lines. my guess is that 99.9% of people do this... | the attached patch gets rid of them Doesn't this change default behaviour that we have had for a very long time? yeah, call it progress... | can i commit? please?! whining does not help. damn
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
On Friday 02 June 2006 07:10, Edwin Leuven wrote: > Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: > > Edwin Leuven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > | is that it gets inserted with silly lines > > > > Why are they silly? > > i think that nobody uses line formatting like this. like paul the first > thing i do after inserting a table is selecting the whole thing and > unset all the lines. my guess is that 99.9% of people do this... And where did you get those statistics? I would not complain if instead you implemented some type of system as Paul suggested. Come on, it can not be too difficult. Friday in progress, in case you wonder... Tables need a lot more work. > > | the attached patch gets rid of them > > > > Doesn't this change default behaviour that we have had for a very long > > time? > > yeah, call it progress... You call progress to a system where you can not even colapse two rows in the same column? > > | can i commit? please?! > > > > whining does not help. > > damn Good try. -- José Abílio
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
"Paul A. Rubin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: | > Edwin Leuven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | > | is that it gets inserted with silly lines | > Why are they silly? | | I think it's generally considered bad form to have many horizontal | lines, or *any* vertical lines, in a table. I confess that the first | thing I do after inserting a table is to block the whole thing and | delete the borders, then typically add just a horizontal line under | the headings row. So I for one would be happier if tables were born | naked as babies. Note that I am not against this change, I just want us to be aware of implications and have well founded reasons for the change. That said, IMHO we should make the behaviour in LyX as close as possible to what you get from using the LaTeX styles/classes manually. So if LaTeX does not use borders by default, neither should we. | > | the attached patch gets rid of them | > Doesn't this change default behaviour that we have had for a very | > long | > time? | | Yes, although it's default behavior of the interface rather than | default behavior of the compilation process, if that makes sense. | (Put another way, it will not affect any existing documents.) | | However, perhaps there should be a preference option whether new | tables are generated with/without lines (say, a check box in the table | insertion dialog and maybe something that says "remember this choice")? Something like a user settable default tabular style? -- Lgb
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: Note that I am not against this change, I just want us to be aware of implications and have well founded reasons for the change. That said, IMHO we should make the behaviour in LyX as close as possible to what you get from using the LaTeX styles/classes manually. So if LaTeX does not use borders by default, neither should we. in latex a tabular comes without lines. they are added using \hline (or variations on this) moreover, i think that it unlikely that people want the lines as we set them now and my guess is that most people do what paul does. i do that as well and i know that those around me who use lyx do the same. (have you ever seen a table formatted like that in a publication?) i am sure that the current line configuration wasn't the result of careful study of common user behavior but more a historical accident although i agree that having some table styles with a user configuration would be nice, it is not high on my todo list (well behaved copy/paste comes before that for example) in the meantime i think that it is cleaner and friendler to the user to insert a blank table
long standing annoyance with tables
is that it gets inserted with silly lines
the attached patch gets rid of them
can i commit? please?!
Index: tabular.C
===
--- tabular.C (revision 13978)
+++ tabular.C (working copy)
@@ -319,9 +319,9 @@
multicolumn(LyXTabular::CELL_NORMAL),
alignment(LYX_ALIGN_CENTER),
valignment(LYX_VALIGN_TOP),
- top_line(true),
+ top_line(false),
bottom_line(false),
- left_line(true),
+ left_line(false),
right_line(false),
usebox(BOX_NONE),
rotate(false),
@@ -378,7 +378,7 @@
LyXTabular::rowstruct::rowstruct()
: ascent_of_row(0),
descent_of_row(0),
- top_line(true),
+ top_line(false),
bottom_line(false),
endhead(false),
endfirsthead(false),
@@ -391,7 +391,7 @@
LyXTabular::columnstruct::columnstruct()
: alignment(LYX_ALIGN_CENTER),
valignment(LYX_VALIGN_TOP),
- left_line(true),
+ left_line(false),
right_line(false),
width_of_column(0)
{
@@ -426,10 +426,10 @@
cell_info.reserve(100);
fixCellNums();
for (row_type i = 0; i rows_; ++i)
- cell_info[i].back().right_line = true;
- row_info.back().bottom_line = true;
- row_info.front().bottom_line = true;
- column_info.back().right_line = true;
+ cell_info[i].back().right_line = false;
+ row_info.back().bottom_line = false;
+ row_info.front().bottom_line = false;
+ column_info.back().right_line = false;
is_long_tabular = false;
rotate = false;
}
@@ -445,7 +445,7 @@
cell_info[i][j].inset-setDrawFrame(false);
cell_info[i][j].cellno = cellno++;
}
- cell_info[i].back().right_line = true;
+ cell_info[i].back().right_line = false;
}
set_row_column_number_info();
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Edwin Leuven [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | is that it gets inserted with silly lines Why are they silly? | the attached patch gets rid of them Doesn't this change default behaviour that we have had for a very long time? | can i commit? please?! whining does not help. -- Lgb
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: Edwin Leuven [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: | is that it gets inserted with silly lines Why are they silly? I think it's generally considered bad form to have many horizontal lines, or *any* vertical lines, in a table. I confess that the first thing I do after inserting a table is to block the whole thing and delete the borders, then typically add just a horizontal line under the headings row. So I for one would be happier if tables were born naked as babies. | the attached patch gets rid of them Doesn't this change default behaviour that we have had for a very long time? Yes, although it's default behavior of the interface rather than default behavior of the compilation process, if that makes sense. (Put another way, it will not affect any existing documents.) However, perhaps there should be a preference option whether new tables are generated with/without lines (say, a check box in the table insertion dialog and maybe something that says remember this choice)? /Paul | can i commit? please?! whining does not help.
long standing annoyance with tables
is that it gets inserted with silly lines
the attached patch gets rid of them
can i commit? please?!
Index: tabular.C
===
--- tabular.C (revision 13978)
+++ tabular.C (working copy)
@@ -319,9 +319,9 @@
multicolumn(LyXTabular::CELL_NORMAL),
alignment(LYX_ALIGN_CENTER),
valignment(LYX_VALIGN_TOP),
- top_line(true),
+ top_line(false),
bottom_line(false),
- left_line(true),
+ left_line(false),
right_line(false),
usebox(BOX_NONE),
rotate(false),
@@ -378,7 +378,7 @@
LyXTabular::rowstruct::rowstruct()
: ascent_of_row(0),
descent_of_row(0),
- top_line(true),
+ top_line(false),
bottom_line(false),
endhead(false),
endfirsthead(false),
@@ -391,7 +391,7 @@
LyXTabular::columnstruct::columnstruct()
: alignment(LYX_ALIGN_CENTER),
valignment(LYX_VALIGN_TOP),
- left_line(true),
+ left_line(false),
right_line(false),
width_of_column(0)
{
@@ -426,10 +426,10 @@
cell_info.reserve(100);
fixCellNums();
for (row_type i = 0; i < rows_; ++i)
- cell_info[i].back().right_line = true;
- row_info.back().bottom_line = true;
- row_info.front().bottom_line = true;
- column_info.back().right_line = true;
+ cell_info[i].back().right_line = false;
+ row_info.back().bottom_line = false;
+ row_info.front().bottom_line = false;
+ column_info.back().right_line = false;
is_long_tabular = false;
rotate = false;
}
@@ -445,7 +445,7 @@
cell_info[i][j].inset->setDrawFrame(false);
cell_info[i][j].cellno = cellno++;
}
- cell_info[i].back().right_line = true;
+ cell_info[i].back().right_line = false;
}
set_row_column_number_info();
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Edwin Leuven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | is that it gets inserted with silly lines Why are they silly? | the attached patch gets rid of them Doesn't this change default behaviour that we have had for a very long time? | can i commit? please?! whining does not help. -- Lgb
Re: long standing annoyance with tables
Lars Gullik Bjønnes wrote: Edwin Leuven <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | is that it gets inserted with silly lines Why are they silly? I think it's generally considered bad form to have many horizontal lines, or *any* vertical lines, in a table. I confess that the first thing I do after inserting a table is to block the whole thing and delete the borders, then typically add just a horizontal line under the headings row. So I for one would be happier if tables were born naked as babies. | the attached patch gets rid of them Doesn't this change default behaviour that we have had for a very long time? Yes, although it's default behavior of the interface rather than default behavior of the compilation process, if that makes sense. (Put another way, it will not affect any existing documents.) However, perhaps there should be a preference option whether new tables are generated with/without lines (say, a check box in the table insertion dialog and maybe something that says "remember this choice")? /Paul | can i commit? please?! whining does not help.
