Re: tex2lyx and the manuals [was: r33009]
On 2010-01-14, Pavel Sanda wrote: Guenter Milde wrote: On 2010-01-13, Pavel Sanda wrote: Vincent van Ravesteijn - TNW wrote: doesn't work because of different preambles and different needs of manuals. Which I still don't understand. http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/5460 only repeats this claim: no, the point was Uwe's reaction to the original proposal. he wants that manuals stay as they are and since he is the maintainer i respect it. to make that work through master/child is painfull due to the different demands of the manuals (preamble stuff, etc). but no further explanation/evidence. have you tried? I tried the link as I wanted to know details about the different needs but did not find them. I did not try to create a master for the Guides yet (as I wanted to find out more about the difficulties to expect first). As I do have experience in maintaining a master/child project with standalone-childs via branches, I expect to try this with the Guides once time permits. Günter
Re: tex2lyx and the manuals [was: r33009]
On 2010-01-14, Pavel Sanda wrote: > Guenter Milde wrote: >> On 2010-01-13, Pavel Sanda wrote: >> > Vincent van Ravesteijn - TNW wrote: >> >> >doesn't work because of different preambles and different >> >> >needs of manuals. >> >> > >> >> Which I still don't understand. >> > http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/5460 >> only repeats this claim: > no, the point was Uwe's reaction to the original proposal. he wants that > manuals stay as they are and since he is the maintainer i respect it. >> to make that work through master/child is painfull due to the different >> demands of the manuals (preamble stuff, etc). >> but no further explanation/evidence. > have you tried? I tried the link as I wanted to know details about the different needs but did not find them. I did not try to create a master for the Guides yet (as I wanted to find out more about the difficulties to expect first). As I do have experience in maintaining a master/child project with standalone-childs via branches, I expect to try this with the Guides once time permits. Günter
Re: tex2lyx and the manuals [was: r33009]
On 2010-01-13, Pavel Sanda wrote: Vincent van Ravesteijn - TNW wrote: doesn't work because of different preambles and different needs of manuals. Which I still don't understand. http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/5460 only repeats this claim: to make that work through master/child is painfull due to the different demands of the manuals (preamble stuff, etc). but no further explanation/evidence. IMO * Creating a master file does not necessarily interfere with the child documents. All manuals should remain compilable as stand-alone documents. Maybe some adjustments would be needed to solve conflicting requirements. * Compiling the master would of course require all the requirements -- which not everyone has on his/her machine. However anyone able to compile all manuals should be able to compile the master. * Even if compiling the master proves impossible with LaTeX, it might be possible to export it to HTML. If a master file (without changes to the content of current manuals) is possible, we can decide on using this for cross-links (very helpfull in HTML and hyperlinked PDF). Also, while Uwe wrote in a comment to #5460: I don't see benefits of a single book as it would then also contain duplicate information. I would prefer to replace this duplicate information by navigable references to a canonical place. Günter
Re: tex2lyx and the manuals [was: r33009]
Guenter Milde wrote: On 2010-01-13, Pavel Sanda wrote: Vincent van Ravesteijn - TNW wrote: doesn't work because of different preambles and different needs of manuals. Which I still don't understand. http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/5460 only repeats this claim: no, the point was Uwe's reaction to the original proposal. he wants that manuals stay as they are and since he is the maintainer i respect it. to make that work through master/child is painfull due to the different demands of the manuals (preamble stuff, etc). but no further explanation/evidence. have you tried? pavel
Re: tex2lyx and the manuals [was: r33009]
On 2010-01-13, Pavel Sanda wrote: > Vincent van Ravesteijn - TNW wrote: >> >doesn't work because of different preambles and different >> >needs of manuals. >> > >> Which I still don't understand. > http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/5460 only repeats this claim: to make that work through master/child is painfull due to the different demands of the manuals (preamble stuff, etc). but no further explanation/evidence. IMO * Creating a master file does not necessarily interfere with the child documents. All manuals should remain compilable as stand-alone documents. Maybe some adjustments would be needed to solve conflicting requirements. * Compiling the master would of course require all the requirements -- which not everyone has on his/her machine. However anyone able to compile all manuals should be able to compile the master. * Even if compiling the master proves impossible with LaTeX, it might be possible to export it to HTML. If a master file (without changes to the content of current manuals) is possible, we can decide on using this for cross-links (very helpfull in HTML and hyperlinked PDF). Also, while Uwe wrote in a comment to #5460: I don't see benefits of a single book as it would then also contain duplicate information. I would prefer to replace this duplicate information by navigable references to a "canonical" place. Günter
Re: tex2lyx and the manuals [was: r33009]
Guenter Milde wrote: > On 2010-01-13, Pavel Sanda wrote: > > Vincent van Ravesteijn - TNW wrote: > >> >doesn't work because of different preambles and different > >> >needs of manuals. > >> > > > >> Which I still don't understand. > > > http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/5460 > > only repeats this claim: no, the point was Uwe's reaction to the original proposal. he wants that manuals stay as they are and since he is the maintainer i respect it. > to make that work through master/child is painfull due to the different > demands of the manuals (preamble stuff, etc). > > but no further explanation/evidence. have you tried? pavel
tex2lyx and the manuals [was: r33009]
On 01/13/2010 02:28 AM, Guenter Milde wrote: On 2010-01-13, Uwe Stöhr wrote: Am 13.01.2010 01:54, schrieb rgheck: This can be done, however users with LaTeX classes we don't have a layout file are usually LaTeX experts. Not always. It could also be students given a university documentclass, first-time authors or converts trying to run a publisher's LaTeX template. Indeed. I suspect, in fact, that LaTeX experts will easily understand the difference between layout files and LaTeX classes, and why one would need both. By reading the relevant sections of the tex2lyx manpage and the references Customization manual it should in my opinion become clear how to handle layout files. However, pointing out the distinction between a LateX documentclass/-style and a LyX layout file and pointing to the relevant parts of the documentation will help them and, by reduced faqs, us. Some of that material is still there, so we are still helped. But I still think, myself, that a more extensive discussion of the difference is important, and that it should be somewhere *most* users would encounter it, not just the ones who already know what they need to do. I also think that there ought to be a few paragraphs in the User's Guide about the possibilities for customizing LyX and why you might want to do that. Too few users know what is possible, it seems to me. And, Uwe, one more thing. Part of the reason I'm not doing these things in trunk right away is because we might want to discuss them, as we are, and because you might want to make changes to what I've done, which you have. It seems reasonable to wait until we have agreed upon what we're doing before doing it in two places. OK? If something becomes settled, then you can tell me and I'll do it in the User's Guide, too, or you can do it. Richard
Re: tex2lyx and the manuals [was: r33009]
On 2010-01-13, rgheck wrote: On 01/13/2010 02:28 AM, Guenter Milde wrote: However, pointing out the distinction between a LateX documentclass/-style and a LyX layout file and pointing to the relevant parts of the documentation will help them and, by reduced faqs, us. Some of that material is still there, so we are still helped. But I still think, myself, that a more extensive discussion of the difference is important, and that it should be somewhere *most* users would encounter it, not just the ones who already know what they need to do. I also think that there ought to be a few paragraphs in the User's Guide about the possibilities for customizing LyX and why you might want to do that. Too few users know what is possible, it seems to me. Yes, the User Guide should/could have more pointers to other documentation parts. **And it should be easy to navigate them.** Therefore I propose: * Organize the help documents as children of one master LyX Guide. (enables easier cross-links and a common index). * Convert the LyX Guide to a set of HTML and publish on lyx.org. HTML is an easier to navigate format -- especially for newbies that are (yet) uncommon with the LyX way to navigate a document. While the lyx format should remain accessible to users (for better examples), the WYSIWYM markup at other places distracts from the content. (With the new native HTML export, it should also be possible to either let an installer (or Linux distribution package) convert the docs at install time or to convert on the fly and show in a browser.) Günter
Re: tex2lyx and the manuals [was: r33009]
Guenter Milde wrote: Therefore I propose: * Organize the help documents as children of one master LyX Guide. (enables easier cross-links and a common index). doesn't work because of different preambles and different needs of manuals. * Convert the LyX Guide to a set of HTML and publish on lyx.org. i published one merged pdf on lyx wiki, but it has its own problems - TOC, page numbering etc. also Tommaso have recently added manual's scope for in new searching feature. HTML is an easier to navigate format -- especially for newbies that are (yet) uncommon with the LyX way to navigate a document. While the lyx format should remain accessible to users (for better examples), the WYSIWYM markup at other places distracts from the content. have planned such master and publishing on web once Richard announce html output is sort of 'prepared' ;) it will be very good tester in fact. pavel
RE: tex2lyx and the manuals [was: r33009]
Therefore I propose: * Organize the help documents as children of one master LyX Guide. (enables easier cross-links and a common index). doesn't work because of different preambles and different needs of manuals. Which I still don't understand. Vincent
Re: tex2lyx and the manuals [was: r33009]
Vincent van Ravesteijn - TNW wrote: doesn't work because of different preambles and different needs of manuals. Which I still don't understand. http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/5460 pavel
Re: tex2lyx and the manuals [was: r33009]
On 01/13/2010 12:02 PM, Pavel Sanda wrote: HTML is an easier to navigate format -- especially for newbies that are (yet) uncommon with the LyX way to navigate a document. While the lyx format should remain accessible to users (for better examples), the WYSIWYM markup at other places distracts from the content. have planned such master and publishing on web once Richard announce html output is sort of 'prepared' ;) it will be very good tester in fact. I expect to have something good enough for a very nice version of the User's Guide within a few days. It outputs pretty well now, if you want to try it, but I'm still working on the index, and there's a cross-ref related patch that I have to finish. Besides that, I think the main outstanding issue is just that there's MathML stuff I haven't done yet (though the things in the User's Guide seem to work). After that, there's plenty of tweaking to be done, and some issues with graphics that I'll need help with. rh
tex2lyx and the manuals [was: r33009]
On 01/13/2010 02:28 AM, Guenter Milde wrote: On 2010-01-13, Uwe Stöhr wrote: Am 13.01.2010 01:54, schrieb rgheck: This can be done, however users with LaTeX classes we don't have a layout file are usually LaTeX experts. Not always. It could also be students given a university documentclass, first-time authors or "converts" trying to run a publisher's LaTeX template. Indeed. I suspect, in fact, that LaTeX experts will easily understand the difference between layout files and LaTeX classes, and why one would need both. By reading the relevant sections of the tex2lyx manpage and the references Customization manual it should in my opinion become clear how to handle layout files. However, pointing out the distinction between a LateX documentclass/-style and a LyX layout file and pointing to the relevant parts of the documentation will help them and, by reduced faqs, us. Some of that material is still there, so we are still helped. But I still think, myself, that a more extensive discussion of the difference is important, and that it should be somewhere *most* users would encounter it, not just the ones who already know what they need to do. I also think that there ought to be a few paragraphs in the User's Guide about the possibilities for customizing LyX and why you might want to do that. Too few users know what is possible, it seems to me. And, Uwe, one more thing. Part of the reason I'm not doing these things in trunk right away is because we might want to discuss them, as we are, and because you might want to make changes to what I've done, which you have. It seems reasonable to wait until we have agreed upon what we're doing before doing it in two places. OK? If something becomes settled, then you can tell me and I'll do it in the User's Guide, too, or you can do it. Richard
Re: tex2lyx and the manuals [was: r33009]
On 2010-01-13, rgheck wrote: > On 01/13/2010 02:28 AM, Guenter Milde wrote: >> However, pointing out the distinction between a LateX >> documentclass/-style and a LyX layout file and pointing to the >> relevant parts of the documentation will help them and, by reduced >> faqs, us. > Some of that material is still there, so we are still helped. But I > still think, myself, that a more extensive discussion of the difference > is important, and that it should be somewhere *most* users would > encounter it, not just the ones who already know what they need to do. > I also think that there ought to be a few paragraphs in the User's Guide > about the possibilities for customizing LyX and why you might want to do > that. Too few users know what is possible, it seems to me. Yes, the User Guide should/could have more pointers to other documentation parts. **And it should be easy to navigate them.** Therefore I propose: * Organize the help documents as children of one master LyX Guide. (enables easier cross-links and a common index). * Convert the LyX Guide to a set of HTML and publish on lyx.org. HTML is an easier to navigate format -- especially for newbies that are (yet) uncommon with the LyX way to navigate a document. While the lyx format should remain accessible to users (for better examples), the WYSIWYM markup at other places distracts from the content. (With the new native HTML export, it should also be possible to either let an installer (or Linux distribution package) convert the docs at install time or to convert "on the fly" and show in a browser.) Günter
Re: tex2lyx and the manuals [was: r33009]
Guenter Milde wrote: > Therefore I propose: > > * Organize the help documents as children of one master LyX Guide. > (enables easier cross-links and a common index). doesn't work because of different preambles and different needs of manuals. > * Convert the LyX Guide to a set of HTML and publish on lyx.org. i published one merged pdf on lyx wiki, but it has its own problems - TOC, page numbering etc. also Tommaso have recently added manual's scope for in new searching feature. > HTML is an easier to navigate format -- especially for newbies that are > (yet) uncommon with the LyX way to navigate a document. While the lyx > format should remain accessible to users (for better examples), the > WYSIWYM markup at other places distracts from the content. have planned such master and publishing on web once Richard announce html output is sort of 'prepared' ;) it will be very good tester in fact. pavel
RE: tex2lyx and the manuals [was: r33009]
>> Therefore I propose: >> >> * Organize the help documents as children of one master LyX Guide. >> (enables easier cross-links and a common index). > >doesn't work because of different preambles and different >needs of manuals. > Which I still don't understand. Vincent
Re: tex2lyx and the manuals [was: r33009]
Vincent van Ravesteijn - TNW wrote: > >doesn't work because of different preambles and different > >needs of manuals. > > > > Which I still don't understand. http://www.lyx.org/trac/ticket/5460 pavel
Re: tex2lyx and the manuals [was: r33009]
On 01/13/2010 12:02 PM, Pavel Sanda wrote: HTML is an easier to navigate format -- especially for newbies that are (yet) uncommon with the LyX way to navigate a document. While the lyx format should remain accessible to users (for better examples), the WYSIWYM markup at other places distracts from the content. have planned such master and publishing on web once Richard announce html output is sort of 'prepared' ;) it will be very good tester in fact. I expect to have something good enough for a very nice version of the User's Guide within a few days. It outputs pretty well now, if you want to try it, but I'm still working on the index, and there's a cross-ref related patch that I have to finish. Besides that, I think the main outstanding issue is just that there's MathML stuff I haven't done yet (though the things in the User's Guide seem to work). After that, there's plenty of tweaking to be done, and some issues with graphics that I'll need help with. rh
