Re: Book size S5
On Tue, 14 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote: HE Hello list, HE HE I have been asked to write my thesis in the latex book size S5 HE so it can be printed correctly, how do I set this in LyX? I can HE only find A* and B* and the USA page sizes. Appearantly there is a document class named s5report, how to I set this documentclass from LyX? -- Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose. -- Lester Burnham, American Beauty
Re: Book size S5
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thursday 16 January 2003 11:29, skreiv Henrik Edlund: On Tue, 14 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote: HE Hello list, HE HE I have been asked to write my thesis in the latex book size S5 HE so it can be printed correctly, how do I set this in LyX? I can HE only find A* and B* and the USA page sizes. Appearantly there is a document class named s5report, how to I set this documentclass from LyX? I guess this is some swedish standard ? Accordingly to page: http://publications.uu.se/helpdesk/faq/ it is 164x242mm. You could try to use a regular report class and use custom page size. If this s5report has something special you have to make a layout, look in chapter 6 in the (Help--)Customization document. Ingar - -- Ingar Pareliussen tlf:73 55 12 89 Du2-185 Realfagsbygget -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE+Jo+dhZyBOYwwzUcRAt2aAJ47mTmJCPD8F/aQdmtvcl3pibSEnQCgnwNf PmHqHx11qUu9re262mh+nzs= =jVhs -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Ingar Pareliussen wrote: IP I guess this is some swedish standard ? Accordingly to page: IP http://publications.uu.se/helpdesk/faq/ it is 164x242mm. You IP could try to use a regular report class and use custom page IP size. If this s5report has something special you have to make IP a layout, look in chapter 6 in the (Help--)Customization IP document. Yeah, most likely it is some standard printing size for booklets/reports that printers (those who make books, etc) in Sweden use. So if I set the page size margins and stuff will be adjusted so it looks TeX nice? Thanks for your help, Henrik -- Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose. -- Lester Burnham, American Beauty
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote: On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Ingar Pareliussen wrote: IP I guess this is some swedish standard ? Accordingly to page: IP http://publications.uu.se/helpdesk/faq/ it is 164x242mm. You IP could try to use a regular report class and use custom page IP size. If this s5report has something special you have to make IP a layout, look in chapter 6 in the (Help--)Customization IP document. Yeah, most likely it is some standard printing size for booklets/reports that printers (those who make books, etc) in Sweden use. So if I set the page size margins and stuff will be adjusted so it looks TeX nice? Thanks for your help, I'm writing my thesis, and I've set the size after measuring the size of our thesis. I came up with 138x238 mm, but just now I tried searching for S5-format and found several sizes: 170x240, 165x238, 170x238 Does anybody know what the actual size really is? (I have a hard time believing the S5-format varies...). Anyway, I use the Koma book-class and you can get a full set of exxample files at this URL: http://www.md.kth.se/~chr/lyx/thesis-example/ or just download a tar-file: http://www.md.kth.se/~chr/lyx/thesis-example.tar.gz /Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: Book size S5
Christian Ridderström wrote: I'm writing my thesis, and I've set the size after measuring the size of our thesis. I came up with 138x238 mm, but just now I tried searching for S5-format and found several sizes:170x240, 165x238, 170x238 Does anybody know what the actual size really is? (I have a hard time believing the S5-format varies...). There is sometimes a difference between what is measures of the sheet to be printed and printing layout (because in commercial printing there is some space resereved for cutting, binding, trimming paper etc.), so the official size of A4 is either 215x305 mm (untrimmed) or 210x297 (trimmed; which is the size of the sheet of paper you usually buy in a store). For more info see http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-paper.html . Have a nice day, Matej -- Matej Cepl, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB 25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC 138 Highland Ave. #10, Somerville, Ma 02143, (617) 623-1488 I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by. -- Douglas Adams
Re: Book size S5
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- On Donnerstag, 16. Januar 2003 14:07, Christian Ridderström wrote: or just download a tar-file: http://www.md.kth.se/~chr/lyx/thesis-example.tar.gz Knowing nothing about S5, but nice example. But, why are you setting paper-width and height in the preamble.tex? (The menu Layout-Document-Paper seems to be more natural) Kornel - -- Kornel Benko [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5.8 iQCVAwUBPibD87ewfbDGmeqhAQGWlQQAtd1e1qjowCPAVq1+8LWJxQKZk0rdeHoV p9ly89ZjROyyw32BEg/rNY9LQAGXpY9o6fDVR31Nw0+aNfg3CyFKPwgnfm06+/Fi WCcmyVojjwEMG4S5g4bS0zPujGHYoHZJb4zqYOE0uabRmru8Ovx/18c7M8m/6NCD JTz/zRjLW08= =/p/H -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Kornel Benko wrote: But, why are you setting paper-width and height in the preamble.tex? (The menu Layout-Document-Paper seems to be more natural) I can then include the preamble-file in other documents and get all the correct settings in one go... this is useful when I only want to print a part of my thesis, or perhaps only a chapter. (the parts and chapters are all in different files) /Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Matej Cepl wrote: Christian Ridderström wrote: I'm writing my thesis, and I've set the size after measuring the size of our thesis. I came up with 138x238 mm, but just now I tried searching for S5-format and found several sizes: 170x240, 165x238, 170x238 There is sometimes a difference between what is measures of the sheet to be printed and printing layout (because in commercial printing there is some space resereved for cutting, binding, trimming paper etc.), so the official size of A4 is either 215x305 mm (untrimmed) or 210x297 (trimmed; which is the size of That makes sense and could explain two of the sizes... but I've found lots of them... (there was also the sizes 165x240, 165x242 and 168x236) btw, I'd made a type above, the size I'm using is 168x238. I guess that's very close to 168x236, which matches the follwing quote: Doctoral and licenciate theses are printed in S5 format (trimmed size ca. 168x236 mm). The stylesheets have been designed to take this into account. However, this is for a Word style sheet, but a lot of the other sizes were also reported for Word style sheets... /Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote:
CR That makes sense and could explain two of the sizes... but I've found
CR lots of them... (there was also the sizes 165x240, 165x242 and 168x236)
CR
CR btw, I'd made a type above, the size I'm using is 168x238. I guess that's
CR very close to 168x236, which matches the follwing quote:
CR
CR Doctoral and licenciate theses are printed in S5 format (trimmed
CR size ca. 168x236 mm). The stylesheets have been designed to take
CR this into account.
CR
CR However, this is for a Word style sheet, but a lot of the other sizes were
CR also reported for Word style sheets...
I managed to track down a s5report.cls that has been in
circulation at my department. Most people seem to write their
thesis in FrameMaker here otherwise. This is an excerpt:
\DeclareOption{s5paper}
{\setlength\paperheight {240mm}%
\setlength\paperwidth {165mm}}
I guess that means that is the trimmed paper size that I should
enter into LyX? It does not seem to be the same as what your quote
says. I wonder if someone actually has the truth and can give us
facts.
--
Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose.
-- Lester Burnham, American Beauty
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote:
CR That makes sense and could explain two of the sizes... but I've found
CR lots of them... (there was also the sizes 165x240, 165x242 and 168x236)
CR
CR btw, I'd made a type above, the size I'm using is 168x238. I guess that's
CR very close to 168x236, which matches the follwing quote:
CR
CR Doctoral and licenciate theses are printed in S5 format (trimmed
CR size ca. 168x236 mm). The stylesheets have been designed to take
CR this into account.
CR
CR However, this is for a Word style sheet, but a lot of the other sizes were
CR also reported for Word style sheets...
I managed to track down a s5report.cls that has been in
circulation at my department. Most people seem to write their
thesis in FrameMaker here otherwise. This is an excerpt:
\DeclareOption{s5paper}
{\setlength\paperheight {240mm}%
\setlength\paperwidth {165mm}}
I guess that means that is the trimmed paper size that I should
enter into LyX? It does not seem to be the same as what your quote
says. I wonder if someone actually has the truth and can give us
facts.
I'm leaning towards that the trimmed S5 size is about 168x236mm, since
I actually measured the size as 168x238, and the extra 2mm in page
width might well be because of the binding. (It was also difficult in
general to measure the width of a page without ripping it out of the
thesis).
/Christian
--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr
Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote: CR I'm leaning towards that the trimmed S5 size is about 168x236mm, since CR I actually measured the size as 168x238, and the extra 2mm in page CR width might well be because of the binding. (It was also difficult in CR general to measure the width of a page without ripping it out of the CR thesis). According to the degree project coordinator S5 is supposed to be 81% of A4. 210x297 - 81% - 170.1x240.57 Also seems very weird. -- Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose. -- Lester Burnham, American Beauty
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote: On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote: CR I'm leaning towards that the trimmed S5 size is about 168x236mm, since CR I actually measured the size as 168x238, and the extra 2mm in page CR width might well be because of the binding. (It was also difficult in CR general to measure the width of a page without ripping it out of the CR thesis). According to the degree project coordinator S5 is supposed to be 81% of A4. 210x297 - 81% - 170.1x240.57 Also seems very weird. Sigh... at another department I found this: http://www.sgr.nada.kth.se/misc/tex/nadapkg/nadarapp.pdf where they say that a thesis is normally printed on the page format G5, 240mm x 170mm (I don't think it's a typo... they use G5 in two places) They are also talking about a latex class for the report, in case you're interested. /Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote: CR http://www.sgr.nada.kth.se/misc/tex/nadapkg/nadarapp.pdf CR CR where they say that a thesis is normally printed on the page format CR CR G5, 240mm x 170mm CR CR (I don't think it's a typo... they use G5 in two places) CR CR They are also talking about a latex class for the report, in case you're CR interested. This is a jungle and nobody seems to know anything about it. Not even the people responsible. Sigh. I am going to talk to the university printers tomorrow and see if they can shed some light on this. -- Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose. -- Lester Burnham, American Beauty
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote: On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote: CR http://www.sgr.nada.kth.se/misc/tex/nadapkg/nadarapp.pdf CR CR where they say that a thesis is normally printed on the page format CR CR G5, 240mm x 170mm CR CR (I don't think it's a typo... they use G5 in two places) CR CR They are also talking about a latex class for the report, in case you're CR interested. This is a jungle and nobody seems to know anything about it. Not even the people responsible. Sigh. I am going to talk to the university printers tomorrow and see if they can shed some light on this. Don't forget to bring a ruler and actually measure the paper... At least I just learned something useful: How to put crop marks on the printout, so that you can cut the page and make it smaller, see http://ev-en.org/wiki/moin.cgi/LyxFAQ#line186 where I put the text. And I've also found that both G5 and S5 seems to be standard formats... http://www.books-on-demand.com/handbok/bokens_format.htm they write that G5, 169x239 mm, for educational stuff, and Statsformat, 165x242 mm, for thesis, reports and public investigations. /C -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote: CR And I've also found that both G5 and S5 seems to be standard CR formats... CR CR http://www.books-on-demand.com/handbok/bokens_format.htm CR CR they write that G5, 169x239 mm, for educational stuff, and CR Statsformat, 165x242 mm, for thesis, reports and public CR investigations. I guess that settles it. Statsformat is for non-Swedish readers, government format. -- Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose. -- Lester Burnham, American Beauty
Re: Book size S5
Henrik Edlund said: This is a jungle and nobody seems to know anything about it. Not even the people responsible. Sigh. I am going to talk to the university printers tomorrow and see if they can shed some light on this. That's the proper place for an authoritative answer. Belike the inconsistencies observed are caused by differences in stock material/size, folding, binding and imposition. William
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote: I guess that settles it. Statsformat is for non-Swedish readers, government format. Hopefully... just for fun I read some more at that site. This page was kind of interesting: http://www.books-on-demand.com/Kalkyl.asp you can enter how many pages of b/w and pages of color, and then get a price. I wonder how much our university charges. Here's an example: 150 pages b/w = about 150 Eur + 8.5 Eur/book + freight 200 pages b/w = about 180 Eur + 10.7 Eur/book + freight It is also fun that they offer to stock it for you and sell it to people, i.e. the buyer order it from them and pay them etc. Then the author (i.e. you) get payed quarterly :-) In this case they add about 1 Eur/book to cover their costs. /Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: Book size S5
On Tue, 14 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote: HE Hello list, HE HE I have been asked to write my thesis in the latex book size S5 HE so it can be printed correctly, how do I set this in LyX? I can HE only find A* and B* and the USA page sizes. Appearantly there is a document class named s5report, how to I set this documentclass from LyX? -- Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose. -- Lester Burnham, American Beauty
Re: Book size S5
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thursday 16 January 2003 11:29, skreiv Henrik Edlund: On Tue, 14 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote: HE Hello list, HE HE I have been asked to write my thesis in the latex book size S5 HE so it can be printed correctly, how do I set this in LyX? I can HE only find A* and B* and the USA page sizes. Appearantly there is a document class named s5report, how to I set this documentclass from LyX? I guess this is some swedish standard ? Accordingly to page: http://publications.uu.se/helpdesk/faq/ it is 164x242mm. You could try to use a regular report class and use custom page size. If this s5report has something special you have to make a layout, look in chapter 6 in the (Help--)Customization document. Ingar - -- Ingar Pareliussen tlf:73 55 12 89 Du2-185 Realfagsbygget -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE+Jo+dhZyBOYwwzUcRAt2aAJ47mTmJCPD8F/aQdmtvcl3pibSEnQCgnwNf PmHqHx11qUu9re262mh+nzs= =jVhs -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Ingar Pareliussen wrote: IP I guess this is some swedish standard ? Accordingly to page: IP http://publications.uu.se/helpdesk/faq/ it is 164x242mm. You IP could try to use a regular report class and use custom page IP size. If this s5report has something special you have to make IP a layout, look in chapter 6 in the (Help--)Customization IP document. Yeah, most likely it is some standard printing size for booklets/reports that printers (those who make books, etc) in Sweden use. So if I set the page size margins and stuff will be adjusted so it looks TeX nice? Thanks for your help, Henrik -- Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose. -- Lester Burnham, American Beauty
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote: On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Ingar Pareliussen wrote: IP I guess this is some swedish standard ? Accordingly to page: IP http://publications.uu.se/helpdesk/faq/ it is 164x242mm. You IP could try to use a regular report class and use custom page IP size. If this s5report has something special you have to make IP a layout, look in chapter 6 in the (Help--)Customization IP document. Yeah, most likely it is some standard printing size for booklets/reports that printers (those who make books, etc) in Sweden use. So if I set the page size margins and stuff will be adjusted so it looks TeX nice? Thanks for your help, I'm writing my thesis, and I've set the size after measuring the size of our thesis. I came up with 138x238 mm, but just now I tried searching for S5-format and found several sizes: 170x240, 165x238, 170x238 Does anybody know what the actual size really is? (I have a hard time believing the S5-format varies...). Anyway, I use the Koma book-class and you can get a full set of exxample files at this URL: http://www.md.kth.se/~chr/lyx/thesis-example/ or just download a tar-file: http://www.md.kth.se/~chr/lyx/thesis-example.tar.gz /Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: Book size S5
Christian Ridderström wrote: I'm writing my thesis, and I've set the size after measuring the size of our thesis. I came up with 138x238 mm, but just now I tried searching for S5-format and found several sizes:170x240, 165x238, 170x238 Does anybody know what the actual size really is? (I have a hard time believing the S5-format varies...). There is sometimes a difference between what is measures of the sheet to be printed and printing layout (because in commercial printing there is some space resereved for cutting, binding, trimming paper etc.), so the official size of A4 is either 215x305 mm (untrimmed) or 210x297 (trimmed; which is the size of the sheet of paper you usually buy in a store). For more info see http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-paper.html . Have a nice day, Matej -- Matej Cepl, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB 25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC 138 Highland Ave. #10, Somerville, Ma 02143, (617) 623-1488 I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by. -- Douglas Adams
Re: Book size S5
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- On Donnerstag, 16. Januar 2003 14:07, Christian Ridderström wrote: or just download a tar-file: http://www.md.kth.se/~chr/lyx/thesis-example.tar.gz Knowing nothing about S5, but nice example. But, why are you setting paper-width and height in the preamble.tex? (The menu Layout-Document-Paper seems to be more natural) Kornel - -- Kornel Benko [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5.8 iQCVAwUBPibD87ewfbDGmeqhAQGWlQQAtd1e1qjowCPAVq1+8LWJxQKZk0rdeHoV p9ly89ZjROyyw32BEg/rNY9LQAGXpY9o6fDVR31Nw0+aNfg3CyFKPwgnfm06+/Fi WCcmyVojjwEMG4S5g4bS0zPujGHYoHZJb4zqYOE0uabRmru8Ovx/18c7M8m/6NCD JTz/zRjLW08= =/p/H -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Kornel Benko wrote: But, why are you setting paper-width and height in the preamble.tex? (The menu Layout-Document-Paper seems to be more natural) I can then include the preamble-file in other documents and get all the correct settings in one go... this is useful when I only want to print a part of my thesis, or perhaps only a chapter. (the parts and chapters are all in different files) /Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Matej Cepl wrote: Christian Ridderström wrote: I'm writing my thesis, and I've set the size after measuring the size of our thesis. I came up with 138x238 mm, but just now I tried searching for S5-format and found several sizes: 170x240, 165x238, 170x238 There is sometimes a difference between what is measures of the sheet to be printed and printing layout (because in commercial printing there is some space resereved for cutting, binding, trimming paper etc.), so the official size of A4 is either 215x305 mm (untrimmed) or 210x297 (trimmed; which is the size of That makes sense and could explain two of the sizes... but I've found lots of them... (there was also the sizes 165x240, 165x242 and 168x236) btw, I'd made a type above, the size I'm using is 168x238. I guess that's very close to 168x236, which matches the follwing quote: Doctoral and licenciate theses are printed in S5 format (trimmed size ca. 168x236 mm). The stylesheets have been designed to take this into account. However, this is for a Word style sheet, but a lot of the other sizes were also reported for Word style sheets... /Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote:
CR That makes sense and could explain two of the sizes... but I've found
CR lots of them... (there was also the sizes 165x240, 165x242 and 168x236)
CR
CR btw, I'd made a type above, the size I'm using is 168x238. I guess that's
CR very close to 168x236, which matches the follwing quote:
CR
CR Doctoral and licenciate theses are printed in S5 format (trimmed
CR size ca. 168x236 mm). The stylesheets have been designed to take
CR this into account.
CR
CR However, this is for a Word style sheet, but a lot of the other sizes were
CR also reported for Word style sheets...
I managed to track down a s5report.cls that has been in
circulation at my department. Most people seem to write their
thesis in FrameMaker here otherwise. This is an excerpt:
\DeclareOption{s5paper}
{\setlength\paperheight {240mm}%
\setlength\paperwidth {165mm}}
I guess that means that is the trimmed paper size that I should
enter into LyX? It does not seem to be the same as what your quote
says. I wonder if someone actually has the truth and can give us
facts.
--
Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose.
-- Lester Burnham, American Beauty
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote:
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote:
CR That makes sense and could explain two of the sizes... but I've found
CR lots of them... (there was also the sizes 165x240, 165x242 and 168x236)
CR
CR btw, I'd made a type above, the size I'm using is 168x238. I guess that's
CR very close to 168x236, which matches the follwing quote:
CR
CR Doctoral and licenciate theses are printed in S5 format (trimmed
CR size ca. 168x236 mm). The stylesheets have been designed to take
CR this into account.
CR
CR However, this is for a Word style sheet, but a lot of the other sizes were
CR also reported for Word style sheets...
I managed to track down a s5report.cls that has been in
circulation at my department. Most people seem to write their
thesis in FrameMaker here otherwise. This is an excerpt:
\DeclareOption{s5paper}
{\setlength\paperheight {240mm}%
\setlength\paperwidth {165mm}}
I guess that means that is the trimmed paper size that I should
enter into LyX? It does not seem to be the same as what your quote
says. I wonder if someone actually has the truth and can give us
facts.
I'm leaning towards that the trimmed S5 size is about 168x236mm, since
I actually measured the size as 168x238, and the extra 2mm in page
width might well be because of the binding. (It was also difficult in
general to measure the width of a page without ripping it out of the
thesis).
/Christian
--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr
Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote: CR I'm leaning towards that the trimmed S5 size is about 168x236mm, since CR I actually measured the size as 168x238, and the extra 2mm in page CR width might well be because of the binding. (It was also difficult in CR general to measure the width of a page without ripping it out of the CR thesis). According to the degree project coordinator S5 is supposed to be 81% of A4. 210x297 - 81% - 170.1x240.57 Also seems very weird. -- Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose. -- Lester Burnham, American Beauty
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote: On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote: CR I'm leaning towards that the trimmed S5 size is about 168x236mm, since CR I actually measured the size as 168x238, and the extra 2mm in page CR width might well be because of the binding. (It was also difficult in CR general to measure the width of a page without ripping it out of the CR thesis). According to the degree project coordinator S5 is supposed to be 81% of A4. 210x297 - 81% - 170.1x240.57 Also seems very weird. Sigh... at another department I found this: http://www.sgr.nada.kth.se/misc/tex/nadapkg/nadarapp.pdf where they say that a thesis is normally printed on the page format G5, 240mm x 170mm (I don't think it's a typo... they use G5 in two places) They are also talking about a latex class for the report, in case you're interested. /Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote: CR http://www.sgr.nada.kth.se/misc/tex/nadapkg/nadarapp.pdf CR CR where they say that a thesis is normally printed on the page format CR CR G5, 240mm x 170mm CR CR (I don't think it's a typo... they use G5 in two places) CR CR They are also talking about a latex class for the report, in case you're CR interested. This is a jungle and nobody seems to know anything about it. Not even the people responsible. Sigh. I am going to talk to the university printers tomorrow and see if they can shed some light on this. -- Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose. -- Lester Burnham, American Beauty
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote: On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote: CR http://www.sgr.nada.kth.se/misc/tex/nadapkg/nadarapp.pdf CR CR where they say that a thesis is normally printed on the page format CR CR G5, 240mm x 170mm CR CR (I don't think it's a typo... they use G5 in two places) CR CR They are also talking about a latex class for the report, in case you're CR interested. This is a jungle and nobody seems to know anything about it. Not even the people responsible. Sigh. I am going to talk to the university printers tomorrow and see if they can shed some light on this. Don't forget to bring a ruler and actually measure the paper... At least I just learned something useful: How to put crop marks on the printout, so that you can cut the page and make it smaller, see http://ev-en.org/wiki/moin.cgi/LyxFAQ#line186 where I put the text. And I've also found that both G5 and S5 seems to be standard formats... http://www.books-on-demand.com/handbok/bokens_format.htm they write that G5, 169x239 mm, for educational stuff, and Statsformat, 165x242 mm, for thesis, reports and public investigations. /C -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote: CR And I've also found that both G5 and S5 seems to be standard CR formats... CR CR http://www.books-on-demand.com/handbok/bokens_format.htm CR CR they write that G5, 169x239 mm, for educational stuff, and CR Statsformat, 165x242 mm, for thesis, reports and public CR investigations. I guess that settles it. Statsformat is for non-Swedish readers, government format. -- Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose. -- Lester Burnham, American Beauty
Re: Book size S5
Henrik Edlund said: This is a jungle and nobody seems to know anything about it. Not even the people responsible. Sigh. I am going to talk to the university printers tomorrow and see if they can shed some light on this. That's the proper place for an authoritative answer. Belike the inconsistencies observed are caused by differences in stock material/size, folding, binding and imposition. William
Re: Book size S5
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote: I guess that settles it. Statsformat is for non-Swedish readers, government format. Hopefully... just for fun I read some more at that site. This page was kind of interesting: http://www.books-on-demand.com/Kalkyl.asp you can enter how many pages of b/w and pages of color, and then get a price. I wonder how much our university charges. Here's an example: 150 pages b/w = about 150 Eur + 8.5 Eur/book + freight 200 pages b/w = about 180 Eur + 10.7 Eur/book + freight It is also fun that they offer to stock it for you and sell it to people, i.e. the buyer order it from them and pay them etc. Then the author (i.e. you) get payed quarterly :-) In this case they add about 1 Eur/book to cover their costs. /Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: "Book size S5"
On Tue, 14 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote: HE> Hello list, HE> HE> I have been asked to write my thesis in the "latex book size S5" HE> so it can be printed correctly, how do I set this in LyX? I can HE> only find A* and B* and the USA page sizes. Appearantly there is a document class named s5report, how to I set this documentclass from LyX? -- "Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose." -- Lester Burnham, "American Beauty"
Re: "Book size S5"
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Thursday 16 January 2003 11:29, skreiv Henrik Edlund: > On Tue, 14 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote: > > HE> Hello list, > HE> > HE> I have been asked to write my thesis in the "latex book size S5" > HE> so it can be printed correctly, how do I set this in LyX? I can > HE> only find A* and B* and the USA page sizes. > > Appearantly there is a document class named s5report, how to I set > this documentclass from LyX? I guess this is some swedish standard ? Accordingly to page: http://publications.uu.se/helpdesk/faq/ it is 164x242mm. You could try to use a regular report class and use custom page size. If this s5report has something special you have to make a layout, look in chapter 6 in the (Help-->)Customization document. Ingar - -- Ingar Pareliussen tlf:73 55 12 89 Du2-185 Realfagsbygget -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE+Jo+dhZyBOYwwzUcRAt2aAJ47mTmJCPD8F/aQdmtvcl3pibSEnQCgnwNf PmHqHx11qUu9re262mh+nzs= =jVhs -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: "Book size S5"
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Ingar Pareliussen wrote: IP> I guess this is some swedish standard ? Accordingly to page: IP> http://publications.uu.se/helpdesk/faq/ it is 164x242mm. You IP> could try to use a regular report class and use custom page IP> size. If this s5report has something special you have to make IP> a layout, look in chapter 6 in the (Help-->)Customization IP> document. Yeah, most likely it is some standard printing size for booklets/reports that printers (those who make books, etc) in Sweden use. So if I set the page size margins and stuff will be adjusted so it looks TeX nice? Thanks for your help, Henrik -- "Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose." -- Lester Burnham, "American Beauty"
Re: "Book size S5"
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote: > On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Ingar Pareliussen wrote: > > IP> I guess this is some swedish standard ? Accordingly to page: > IP> http://publications.uu.se/helpdesk/faq/ it is 164x242mm. You > IP> could try to use a regular report class and use custom page > IP> size. If this s5report has something special you have to make > IP> a layout, look in chapter 6 in the (Help-->)Customization > IP> document. > > Yeah, most likely it is some standard printing size for > booklets/reports that printers (those who make books, etc) in > Sweden use. > > So if I set the page size margins and stuff will be adjusted so it > looks TeX nice? > > Thanks for your help, > I'm writing my thesis, and I've set the size after measuring the size of our thesis. I came up with 138x238 mm, but just now I tried searching for S5-format and found several sizes: 170x240, 165x238, 170x238 Does anybody know what the actual size really is? (I have a hard time believing the S5-format varies...). Anyway, I use the Koma book-class and you can get a full set of exxample files at this URL: http://www.md.kth.se/~chr/lyx/thesis-example/ or just download a tar-file: http://www.md.kth.se/~chr/lyx/thesis-example.tar.gz /Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: "Book size S5"
Christian Ridderström wrote: > I'm writing my thesis, and I've set the size after measuring the size > of our thesis. I came up with 138x238 mm, but just now I tried searching > for S5-format and found several sizes:170x240, 165x238, 170x238 > > Does anybody know what the actual size really is? (I have a hard time > believing the S5-format varies...). There is sometimes a difference between what is measures of the sheet to be printed and printing layout (because in commercial printing there is some space resereved for cutting, binding, trimming paper etc.), so the official size of A4 is either 215x305 mm (untrimmed) or 210x297 (trimmed; which is the size of the sheet of paper you usually buy in a store). For more info see http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/iso-paper.html . Have a nice day, Matej -- Matej Cepl, [EMAIL PROTECTED], Finger: 89EF 4BC6 288A BF43 1BAB 25C3 E09F EF25 D964 84AC 138 Highland Ave. #10, Somerville, Ma 02143, (617) 623-1488 I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by. -- Douglas Adams
Re: "Book size S5"
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- On Donnerstag, 16. Januar 2003 14:07, Christian Ridderström wrote: > or just download a tar-file: > http://www.md.kth.se/~chr/lyx/thesis-example.tar.gz Knowing nothing about S5, but nice example. But, why are you setting paper-width and height in the preamble.tex? (The menu Layout->Document->Paper seems to be more natural) Kornel - -- Kornel Benko [EMAIL PROTECTED] -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: PGP 6.5.8 iQCVAwUBPibD87ewfbDGmeqhAQGWlQQAtd1e1qjowCPAVq1+8LWJxQKZk0rdeHoV p9ly89ZjROyyw32BEg/rNY9LQAGXpY9o6fDVR31Nw0+aNfg3CyFKPwgnfm06+/Fi WCcmyVojjwEMG4S5g4bS0zPujGHYoHZJb4zqYOE0uabRmru8Ovx/18c7M8m/6NCD JTz/zRjLW08= =/p/H -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: "Book size S5"
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Kornel Benko wrote: > But, why are you setting paper-width and height in the preamble.tex? > (The menu Layout->Document->Paper seems to be more natural) I can then include the preamble-file in other documents and get all the correct settings in one go... this is useful when I only want to print a part of my thesis, or perhaps only a chapter. (the parts and chapters are all in different files) /Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: "Book size S5"
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Matej Cepl wrote: > Christian Ridderström wrote: > > I'm writing my thesis, and I've set the size after measuring the size > > of our thesis. I came up with 138x238 mm, but just now I tried searching > > for S5-format and found several sizes: 170x240, 165x238, 170x238 > > > There is sometimes a difference between what is measures of the > sheet to be printed and printing layout (because in commercial > printing there is some space resereved for cutting, binding, > trimming paper etc.), so the official size of A4 is either > 215x305 mm (untrimmed) or 210x297 (trimmed; which is the size of That makes sense and could explain two of the sizes... but I've found lots of them... (there was also the sizes 165x240, 165x242 and 168x236) btw, I'd made a type above, the size I'm using is 168x238. I guess that's very close to 168x236, which matches the follwing quote: "Doctoral and licenciate theses are printed in S5 format (trimmed size ca. 168x236 mm). The stylesheets have been designed to take this into account." However, this is for a Word style sheet, but a lot of the other sizes were also reported for Word style sheets... /Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: "Book size S5"
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote:
CR> That makes sense and could explain two of the sizes... but I've found
CR> lots of them... (there was also the sizes 165x240, 165x242 and 168x236)
CR>
CR> btw, I'd made a type above, the size I'm using is 168x238. I guess that's
CR> very close to 168x236, which matches the follwing quote:
CR>
CR> "Doctoral and licenciate theses are printed in S5 format (trimmed
CR> size ca. 168x236 mm). The stylesheets have been designed to take
CR> this into account."
CR>
CR> However, this is for a Word style sheet, but a lot of the other sizes were
CR> also reported for Word style sheets...
I managed to track down a s5report.cls that has been in
circulation at my department. Most people seem to write their
thesis in FrameMaker here otherwise. This is an excerpt:
\DeclareOption{s5paper}
{\setlength\paperheight {240mm}%
\setlength\paperwidth {165mm}}
I guess that means that is the trimmed paper size that I should
enter into LyX? It does not seem to be the same as what your quote
says. I wonder if someone actually has the "truth" and can give us
"facts".
--
"Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose."
-- Lester Burnham, "American Beauty"
Re: "Book size S5"
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote:
> On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote:
>
> CR> That makes sense and could explain two of the sizes... but I've found
> CR> lots of them... (there was also the sizes 165x240, 165x242 and 168x236)
> CR>
> CR> btw, I'd made a type above, the size I'm using is 168x238. I guess that's
> CR> very close to 168x236, which matches the follwing quote:
> CR>
> CR> "Doctoral and licenciate theses are printed in S5 format (trimmed
> CR> size ca. 168x236 mm). The stylesheets have been designed to take
> CR> this into account."
> CR>
> CR> However, this is for a Word style sheet, but a lot of the other sizes were
> CR> also reported for Word style sheets...
>
> I managed to track down a s5report.cls that has been in
> circulation at my department. Most people seem to write their
> thesis in FrameMaker here otherwise. This is an excerpt:
>
> \DeclareOption{s5paper}
>{\setlength\paperheight {240mm}%
> \setlength\paperwidth {165mm}}
>
> I guess that means that is the trimmed paper size that I should
> enter into LyX? It does not seem to be the same as what your quote
> says. I wonder if someone actually has the "truth" and can give us
> "facts".
I'm leaning towards that the trimmed S5 size is about 168x236mm, since
I actually measured the size as 168x238, and the extra 2mm in page
width might well be because of the binding. (It was also difficult in
general to measure the width of a page without ripping it out of the
thesis).
/Christian
--
Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr
Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: "Book size S5"
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote: CR> I'm leaning towards that the trimmed S5 size is about 168x236mm, since CR> I actually measured the size as 168x238, and the extra 2mm in page CR> width might well be because of the binding. (It was also difficult in CR> general to measure the width of a page without ripping it out of the CR> thesis). According to the degree project coordinator S5 is supposed to be 81% of A4. 210x297 -> 81% -> 170.1x240.57 Also seems very weird. -- "Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose." -- Lester Burnham, "American Beauty"
Re: "Book size S5"
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote: > On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote: > > CR> I'm leaning towards that the trimmed S5 size is about 168x236mm, since > CR> I actually measured the size as 168x238, and the extra 2mm in page > CR> width might well be because of the binding. (It was also difficult in > CR> general to measure the width of a page without ripping it out of the > CR> thesis). > > According to the degree project coordinator S5 is supposed to be > 81% of A4. > > 210x297 -> 81% -> 170.1x240.57 > > Also seems very weird. > Sigh... at another department I found this: http://www.sgr.nada.kth.se/misc/tex/nadapkg/nadarapp.pdf where they say that a thesis is normally printed on the page format G5, 240mm x 170mm (I don't think it's a typo... they use G5 in two places) They are also talking about a latex class for the report, in case you're interested. /Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: "Book size S5"
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote: CR> http://www.sgr.nada.kth.se/misc/tex/nadapkg/nadarapp.pdf CR> CR> where they say that a thesis is normally printed on the page format CR> CR> G5, 240mm x 170mm CR> CR> (I don't think it's a typo... they use G5 in two places) CR> CR> They are also talking about a latex class for the report, in case you're CR> interested. This is a jungle and nobody seems to know anything about it. Not even the people responsible. Sigh. I am going to talk to the university printers tomorrow and see if they can shed some light on this. -- "Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose." -- Lester Burnham, "American Beauty"
Re: "Book size S5"
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote: > On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote: > > CR> http://www.sgr.nada.kth.se/misc/tex/nadapkg/nadarapp.pdf > CR> > CR> where they say that a thesis is normally printed on the page format > CR> > CR> G5, 240mm x 170mm > CR> > CR> (I don't think it's a typo... they use G5 in two places) > CR> > CR> They are also talking about a latex class for the report, in case you're > CR> interested. > > This is a jungle and nobody seems to know anything about it. Not > even the people responsible. Sigh. > > I am going to talk to the university printers tomorrow and see if > they can shed some light on this. > Don't forget to bring a ruler and actually measure the paper... At least I just learned something useful: How to put crop marks on the printout, so that you can cut the page and make it smaller, see http://ev-en.org/wiki/moin.cgi/LyxFAQ#line186 where I put the text. And I've also found that both G5 and S5 seems to be standard formats... http://www.books-on-demand.com/handbok/bokens_format.htm they write that G5, 169x239 mm, for educational stuff, and "Statsformat", 165x242 mm, for thesis, reports and public investigations. /C -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: "Book size S5"
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Christian Ridderström wrote: CR> And I've also found that both G5 and S5 seems to be standard CR> formats... CR> CR> http://www.books-on-demand.com/handbok/bokens_format.htm CR> CR> they write that G5, 169x239 mm, for educational stuff, and CR> "Statsformat", 165x242 mm, for thesis, reports and public CR> investigations. I guess that settles it. Statsformat is for non-Swedish readers, "government format". -- "Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose." -- Lester Burnham, "American Beauty"
Re: "Book size S5"
Henrik Edlund said: >This is a jungle and nobody seems to know anything about it. Not >even the people responsible. Sigh. >I am going to talk to the university printers tomorrow and see if >they can shed some light on this. That's the proper place for an authoritative answer. Belike the inconsistencies observed are caused by differences in stock material/size, folding, binding and imposition. William
Re: "Book size S5"
On Thu, 16 Jan 2003, Henrik Edlund wrote: > > I guess that settles it. > > Statsformat is for non-Swedish readers, "government format". > Hopefully... just for fun I read some more at that site. This page was kind of interesting: http://www.books-on-demand.com/Kalkyl.asp you can enter how many pages of b/w and pages of color, and then get a price. I wonder how much our university charges. Here's an example: 150 pages b/w => about 150 Eur + 8.5 Eur/book + freight 200 pages b/w => about 180 Eur + 10.7 Eur/book + freight It is also fun that they offer to "stock" it for you and sell it to people, i.e. the buyer order it from them and pay them etc. Then the author (i.e. you) get payed quarterly :-) In this case they add about 1 Eur/book to cover their costs. /Christian -- Christian Ridderström, +46-8-790 91 37 http://www.md.kth.se/~chr Mechatronics lab, Dept. of Machine Designhttp://www.md.kth.se
Re: Book size S5
On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, Andre Poenitz wrote: AP Are you sure that format exists? A is pretty close to S on AP most keyboards, so this might as well be a typo... It says so on several places in the instructions so it would be weird if they typed it wrong 5-6 times. Henrik -- Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose. -- Lester Burnham, American Beauty
Re: Book size S5
On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, Andre Poenitz wrote: AP Are you sure that format exists? A is pretty close to S on AP most keyboards, so this might as well be a typo... It says so on several places in the instructions so it would be weird if they typed it wrong 5-6 times. Henrik -- Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose. -- Lester Burnham, American Beauty
Re: "Book size S5"
On Wed, 15 Jan 2003, Andre Poenitz wrote: AP> Are you sure that format exists? A is pretty close to S on AP> most keyboards, so this might as well be a typo... It says so on several places in the instructions so it would be weird if they typed it wrong 5-6 times. Henrik -- "Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose." -- Lester Burnham, "American Beauty"
Book size S5
Hello list, I have been asked to write my thesis in the latex book size S5 so it can be printed correctly, how do I set this in LyX? I can only find A* and B* and the USA page sizes. TIA, Henrik -- Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose. -- Lester Burnham, American Beauty
Re: Book size S5
On Tue, Jan 14, 2003 at 04:07:55PM +0100, Henrik Edlund wrote: I have been asked to write my thesis in the latex book size S5 so it can be printed correctly, how do I set this in LyX? I can only find A* and B* and the USA page sizes. Are you sure that format exists? A is pretty close to S on most keyboards, so this might as well be a typo... Andre' -- Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one. (T. Jefferson)
Book size S5
Hello list, I have been asked to write my thesis in the latex book size S5 so it can be printed correctly, how do I set this in LyX? I can only find A* and B* and the USA page sizes. TIA, Henrik -- Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose. -- Lester Burnham, American Beauty
Re: Book size S5
On Tue, Jan 14, 2003 at 04:07:55PM +0100, Henrik Edlund wrote: I have been asked to write my thesis in the latex book size S5 so it can be printed correctly, how do I set this in LyX? I can only find A* and B* and the USA page sizes. Are you sure that format exists? A is pretty close to S on most keyboards, so this might as well be a typo... Andre' -- Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one. (T. Jefferson)
"Book size S5"
Hello list, I have been asked to write my thesis in the "latex book size S5" so it can be printed correctly, how do I set this in LyX? I can only find A* and B* and the USA page sizes. TIA, Henrik -- "Nope, I'm just an ordinary guy with nothing to lose." -- Lester Burnham, "American Beauty"
Re: "Book size S5"
On Tue, Jan 14, 2003 at 04:07:55PM +0100, Henrik Edlund wrote: > I have been asked to write my thesis in the "latex book size S5" > so it can be printed correctly, how do I set this in LyX? I can > only find A* and B* and the USA page sizes. Are you sure that format exists? A is pretty close to S on most keyboards, so this might as well be a typo... Andre' -- Those who desire to give up Freedom in order to gain Security, will not have, nor do they deserve, either one. (T. Jefferson)
