subject:"Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break"


 From: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org [mailto:lyx-users@lists.lyx.org] On Behalf
Of
 Rich Shepard
 Sent: 4 September 2014 12:28 AM
 
 On Wed, 3 Sep 2014, Jerry wrote:
 
  Something curious happens on my computer which is a Macintosh. I don't
  know if it happens on other computers but it would be interesting to
know.
  (Hint.)
 
 Jerry,
 
On linux running on Intel and AMD processors the only way to enter a
 hyphen, n-dash, and m-dash is to use -, --, and ---. Never had a problem
with
 incorrect line breaks with any of 'em over the years.
 
 Rich

Are you sure it's the only way? It's easy to prove something is possible -
just say how to do it - but proving something is impossible is notoriously
difficult! I suspect one of these three options will let you do the same
thing on Linux as Jerry was doing on the Mac:

1. Maybe there is some way to input unicode characters directly. For
example, on Windows you can type Alt+0150 to get an en dash.

2. There is probably some equivalent of the Windows character map on Linux.
You could search in that for en dash or em dash and copy and paste the
result to LyX.

3. Within LyX there is the insert-special character dialogue. Under the
general punctuation section you will find several dashes (which could
really do with labelling). The fifth one (which says code point: 2013 when
you hover over it) is an en dash, and the one after is an em dash.

Jim

RE: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

Sorry for arriving late to this party. Here are a few things I've noticed.

**Type of dash**

In LaTeX, and therefore also in LyX, there are two types of en dash (and
also two types of em dash). In LaTeX the first is entered by -- and the
second is entered with \textendash. In LyX the first is entered with -- and
the second is entered by putting the unicode en dash in (in my reply to Rich
I listed three ways to do this, and Jerry's Mac technique is doing the same
thing). It's not quite clear to me which is the correct way to do this. --
is older, and \textendash was introduced so that it can work with more fonts
(or something like that). 

But as Jerry has noticed, they also have different line breaking properties.
It sounds like the ability of -- to create a  line break was just a side
effect of its implementation rather than intended. Maybe it was suppressed
from \textendash because it's so easy to turn back on when needed (see next
point).

**Changing the breaking behaviour**

Allow \textendash to break: in the position you want to allow a break
(almost certainly after the dash) insert a zero width space. In LaTeX this
is \hspace{0cm}, and in LyX use insert-formatting-horizontal space, then
choose custom and put in zero. This is the same philosophy as Unicode, where
you'd put in a zero-width space to allow a line break.

Stop -- allowing a line break: I'm not sure whether this is a correct
solution, but putting it in an \mbox seems to work (as in:
Heine\mbox{--}Borel theorem). Unfortunately LyX doesn't support mboxes, so
you'd need to enter it in ERT.

**Which type of line break is correct?**

I know of three ways of using an en dash in English:

1. The original purpose is for numeric ranges in text: see pp. 40-87.

2. For hyphenating words when they are proper nouns of equal importance: so
in Heine-Borel theorem but not in mean-value theorem.

3. In place of em dashes for parenthetical remarks, with spaces on either
side. This is not traditional but has become fashionable in recent decades.

It seems to me that you do not want breaking for the first usage and you do
for the second (and you'll always get it for the third because of the
spaces), so neither type of dash is better in general. Since \textendash
works with more fonts (so it's said), this seems to me to be the best thing
to output.

Jim

 -Original Message-
 From: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org [mailto:lyx-users@lists.lyx.org] On Behalf
Of
 Jerry
 Sent: 4 September 2014 12:15 AM
 To: LyX users' list
 Subject: Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break
 
 On Aug 28, 2014, at 4:03 AM, Jerry lancebo...@qwest.net wrote:
 
  I have a fancy hyphenated word, crosstalk-cancelled, where I spell it
with (I
 believe) the proper - which is an n-dash. When this is rendered in the
vicinity
 of a line wrap, the entire thing gets pushed to the next line, leaving a
lot of
 ugly white space in the first line. So I inserted a hyphenation point
after the -.
 This shows on the LyX screen as sort of -- which is my original n-dash and
a
 shorter blue dash, probably supposed to represent a hyphen. This is all
great,
 but when this version is rendered, the line break now appears after
 crosstalk--, that is, both the n-dash _and_ the hyphenation point are
 rendered which looks very wrong. What is the typographer's say on this,
and
 is LyX doing the right thing. Also, is this a LyX problem or a TeX
problem? My
 guess the typographer would say, let the n-dash stand alone if it occurs
at a
 line break.
 
  Jerry
 
 Thanks for all your kind responses.
 
 I need to clear up this thread for a few reasons.
 
 I started it with a muddle-headed premise--that the n-dash is
appropriately
 used in places such as crosstalk-cancelled; it is not. A hyphen should be
used
 there. I've known this since grammar school and for some reason a bit in
my
 brain flipped (bit rot's a bitch) a couple months ago and I started doing
it
 wrong. So the best thing would be to ignore this whole thread. However...
 
 LyX, apparently like LaTeX and I suppose TeX, denotes the hyphen as an
 actual hyphen -, the n-dash as two hyphens --, and the m-dash as three
 hyphens ---. When entered this way in LyX, line breaking, if necessary,
 happens as expected, after the hyphen or dash. However...
 
 Something curious happens on my computer which is a Macintosh. I don't
 know if it happens on other computers but it would be interesting to know.
 (Hint.) Specifically, on Macs the n-dash is entered with Option-hyphen and
 the m-dash with Shift-Option-hyphen; this has been the case since 1984 and
 my fingers know it well. The LyX documentation says that the - -- ---
method
 should be used. (It does not say _not_ to do the Mac-like thing.) Being
 contrary (and a newish LyX user) I tried the traditional Mac way, and it
works-
 -the desired character is displayed on the LyX window and also is rendered
 correctly in printed output. So that is the habit I continued for working
in LyX.
 Therein lies my problem

RE: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break


 From: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org [mailto:lyx-users@lists.lyx.org] On Behalf
Of
 Rich Shepard
 Sent: 4 September 2014 12:28 AM
 
 On Wed, 3 Sep 2014, Jerry wrote:
 
  Something curious happens on my computer which is a Macintosh. I don't
  know if it happens on other computers but it would be interesting to
know.
  (Hint.)
 
 Jerry,
 
On linux running on Intel and AMD processors the only way to enter a
 hyphen, n-dash, and m-dash is to use -, --, and ---. Never had a problem
with
 incorrect line breaks with any of 'em over the years.
 
 Rich

Are you sure it's the only way? It's easy to prove something is possible -
just say how to do it - but proving something is impossible is notoriously
difficult! I suspect one of these three options will let you do the same
thing on Linux as Jerry was doing on the Mac:

1. Maybe there is some way to input unicode characters directly. For
example, on Windows you can type Alt+0150 to get an en dash.

2. There is probably some equivalent of the Windows character map on Linux.
You could search in that for en dash or em dash and copy and paste the
result to LyX.

3. Within LyX there is the insert-special character dialogue. Under the
general punctuation section you will find several dashes (which could
really do with labelling). The fifth one (which says code point: 2013 when
you hover over it) is an en dash, and the one after is an em dash.

Jim

RE: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

Sorry for arriving late to this party. Here are a few things I've noticed.

**Type of dash**

In LaTeX, and therefore also in LyX, there are two types of en dash (and
also two types of em dash). In LaTeX the first is entered by -- and the
second is entered with \textendash. In LyX the first is entered with -- and
the second is entered by putting the unicode en dash in (in my reply to Rich
I listed three ways to do this, and Jerry's Mac technique is doing the same
thing). It's not quite clear to me which is the correct way to do this. --
is older, and \textendash was introduced so that it can work with more fonts
(or something like that). 

But as Jerry has noticed, they also have different line breaking properties.
It sounds like the ability of -- to create a  line break was just a side
effect of its implementation rather than intended. Maybe it was suppressed
from \textendash because it's so easy to turn back on when needed (see next
point).

**Changing the breaking behaviour**

Allow \textendash to break: in the position you want to allow a break
(almost certainly after the dash) insert a zero width space. In LaTeX this
is \hspace{0cm}, and in LyX use insert-formatting-horizontal space, then
choose custom and put in zero. This is the same philosophy as Unicode, where
you'd put in a zero-width space to allow a line break.

Stop -- allowing a line break: I'm not sure whether this is a correct
solution, but putting it in an \mbox seems to work (as in:
Heine\mbox{--}Borel theorem). Unfortunately LyX doesn't support mboxes, so
you'd need to enter it in ERT.

**Which type of line break is correct?**

I know of three ways of using an en dash in English:

1. The original purpose is for numeric ranges in text: see pp. 40-87.

2. For hyphenating words when they are proper nouns of equal importance: so
in Heine-Borel theorem but not in mean-value theorem.

3. In place of em dashes for parenthetical remarks, with spaces on either
side. This is not traditional but has become fashionable in recent decades.

It seems to me that you do not want breaking for the first usage and you do
for the second (and you'll always get it for the third because of the
spaces), so neither type of dash is better in general. Since \textendash
works with more fonts (so it's said), this seems to me to be the best thing
to output.

Jim

 -Original Message-
 From: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org [mailto:lyx-users@lists.lyx.org] On Behalf
Of
 Jerry
 Sent: 4 September 2014 12:15 AM
 To: LyX users' list
 Subject: Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break
 
 On Aug 28, 2014, at 4:03 AM, Jerry lancebo...@qwest.net wrote:
 
  I have a fancy hyphenated word, crosstalk-cancelled, where I spell it
with (I
 believe) the proper - which is an n-dash. When this is rendered in the
vicinity
 of a line wrap, the entire thing gets pushed to the next line, leaving a
lot of
 ugly white space in the first line. So I inserted a hyphenation point
after the -.
 This shows on the LyX screen as sort of -- which is my original n-dash and
a
 shorter blue dash, probably supposed to represent a hyphen. This is all
great,
 but when this version is rendered, the line break now appears after
 crosstalk--, that is, both the n-dash _and_ the hyphenation point are
 rendered which looks very wrong. What is the typographer's say on this,
and
 is LyX doing the right thing. Also, is this a LyX problem or a TeX
problem? My
 guess the typographer would say, let the n-dash stand alone if it occurs
at a
 line break.
 
  Jerry
 
 Thanks for all your kind responses.
 
 I need to clear up this thread for a few reasons.
 
 I started it with a muddle-headed premise--that the n-dash is
appropriately
 used in places such as crosstalk-cancelled; it is not. A hyphen should be
used
 there. I've known this since grammar school and for some reason a bit in
my
 brain flipped (bit rot's a bitch) a couple months ago and I started doing
it
 wrong. So the best thing would be to ignore this whole thread. However...
 
 LyX, apparently like LaTeX and I suppose TeX, denotes the hyphen as an
 actual hyphen -, the n-dash as two hyphens --, and the m-dash as three
 hyphens ---. When entered this way in LyX, line breaking, if necessary,
 happens as expected, after the hyphen or dash. However...
 
 Something curious happens on my computer which is a Macintosh. I don't
 know if it happens on other computers but it would be interesting to know.
 (Hint.) Specifically, on Macs the n-dash is entered with Option-hyphen and
 the m-dash with Shift-Option-hyphen; this has been the case since 1984 and
 my fingers know it well. The LyX documentation says that the - -- ---
method
 should be used. (It does not say _not_ to do the Mac-like thing.) Being
 contrary (and a newish LyX user) I tried the traditional Mac way, and it
works-
 -the desired character is displayed on the LyX window and also is rendered
 correctly in printed output. So that is the habit I continued for working
in LyX.
 Therein lies my problem

RE: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

> From: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org [mailto:lyx-users@lists.lyx.org] On Behalf
Of
> Rich Shepard
> Sent: 4 September 2014 12:28 AM
> 
> On Wed, 3 Sep 2014, Jerry wrote:
> 
> > Something curious happens on my computer which is a Macintosh. I don't
> > know if it happens on other computers but it would be interesting to
know.
> > (Hint.)
> 
> Jerry,
> 
>On linux running on Intel and AMD processors the only way to enter a
> hyphen, n-dash, and m-dash is to use -, --, and ---. Never had a problem
with
> incorrect line breaks with any of 'em over the years.
> 
> Rich

Are you sure it's "the only way"? It's easy to prove something is possible -
just say how to do it - but proving something is impossible is notoriously
difficult! I suspect one of these three options will let you do the same
thing on Linux as Jerry was doing on the Mac:

1. Maybe there is some way to input unicode characters directly. For
example, on Windows you can type Alt+0150 to get an en dash.

2. There is probably some equivalent of the Windows character map on Linux.
You could search in that for en dash or em dash and copy and paste the
result to LyX.

3. Within LyX there is the insert->special character dialogue. Under the
"general punctuation" section you will find several dashes (which could
really do with labelling). The fifth one (which says "code point: 2013" when
you hover over it) is an en dash, and the one after is an em dash.

Jim

RE: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

Sorry for arriving late to this party. Here are a few things I've noticed.

**Type of dash**

In LaTeX, and therefore also in LyX, there are two types of en dash (and
also two types of em dash). In LaTeX the first is entered by -- and the
second is entered with \textendash. In LyX the first is entered with -- and
the second is entered by putting the unicode en dash in (in my reply to Rich
I listed three ways to do this, and Jerry's Mac technique is doing the same
thing). It's not quite clear to me which is the "correct" way to do this. --
is older, and \textendash was introduced so that it can work with more fonts
(or something like that). 

But as Jerry has noticed, they also have different line breaking properties.
It sounds like the ability of -- to create a  line break was just a side
effect of its implementation rather than intended. Maybe it was suppressed
from \textendash because it's so easy to turn back on when needed (see next
point).

**Changing the breaking behaviour**

Allow \textendash to break: in the position you want to allow a break
(almost certainly after the dash) insert a zero width space. In LaTeX this
is \hspace{0cm}, and in LyX use insert->formatting->horizontal space, then
choose custom and put in zero. This is the same philosophy as Unicode, where
you'd put in a zero-width space to allow a line break.

Stop -- allowing a line break: I'm not sure whether this is a "correct"
solution, but putting it in an \mbox seems to work (as in:
"Heine\mbox{--}Borel theorem"). Unfortunately LyX doesn't support mboxes, so
you'd need to enter it in ERT.

**Which type of line break is correct?**

I know of three ways of using an en dash in English:

1. The original purpose is for numeric ranges in text: "see pp. 40-87".

2. For hyphenating words when they are proper nouns of equal importance: so
in "Heine-Borel theorem" but not in "mean-value theorem".

3. In place of em dashes for parenthetical remarks, with spaces on either
side. This is not traditional but has become fashionable in recent decades.

It seems to me that you do not want breaking for the first usage and you do
for the second (and you'll always get it for the third because of the
spaces), so neither type of dash is better in general. Since \textendash
works with more fonts (so it's said), this seems to me to be the best thing
to output.

Jim

> -Original Message-
> From: lyx-users@lists.lyx.org [mailto:lyx-users@lists.lyx.org] On Behalf
Of
> Jerry
> Sent: 4 September 2014 12:15 AM
> To: LyX users' list
> Subject: Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break
> 
> On Aug 28, 2014, at 4:03 AM, Jerry <lancebo...@qwest.net> wrote:
> 
> > I have a fancy hyphenated word, crosstalk-cancelled, where I spell it
with (I
> believe) the proper - which is an n-dash. When this is rendered in the
vicinity
> of a line wrap, the entire thing gets pushed to the next line, leaving a
lot of
> ugly white space in the first line. So I inserted a hyphenation point
after the -.
> This shows on the LyX screen as sort of -- which is my original n-dash and
a
> shorter blue dash, probably supposed to represent a hyphen. This is all
great,
> but when this version is rendered, the line break now appears after
> crosstalk--, that is, both the n-dash _and_ the hyphenation point are
> rendered which looks very wrong. What is the typographer's say on this,
and
> is LyX doing the right thing. Also, is this a LyX problem or a TeX
problem? My
> guess the typographer would say, let the n-dash stand alone if it occurs
at a
> line break.
> >
> > Jerry
> 
> Thanks for all your kind responses.
> 
> I need to clear up this thread for a few reasons.
> 
> I started it with a muddle-headed premise--that the n-dash is
appropriately
> used in places such as crosstalk-cancelled; it is not. A hyphen should be
used
> there. I've known this since grammar school and for some reason a bit in
my
> brain flipped (bit rot's a bitch) a couple months ago and I started doing
it
> wrong. So the best thing would be to ignore this whole thread. However...
> 
> LyX, apparently like LaTeX and I suppose TeX, denotes the hyphen as an
> actual hyphen -, the n-dash as two hyphens --, and the m-dash as three
> hyphens ---. When entered this way in LyX, line breaking, if necessary,
> happens as expected, after the hyphen or dash. However...
> 
> Something curious happens on my computer which is a Macintosh. I don't
> know if it happens on other computers but it would be interesting to know.
> (Hint.) Specifically, on Macs the n-dash is entered with Option-hyphen and
> the m-dash with Shift-Option-hyphen; this has been the case since 1984 and
> my fingers know it well. The LyX documentation says that the - -- ---
method
> should be used. (It does not say _not_ to do the

Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

2014-09-03 Thread Jerry

On Aug 28, 2014, at 4:03 AM, Jerry lancebo...@qwest.net wrote:

 I have a fancy hyphenated word, crosstalk-cancelled, where I spell it with (I 
 believe) the proper - which is an n-dash. When this is rendered in the 
 vicinity of a line wrap, the entire thing gets pushed to the next line, 
 leaving a lot of ugly white space in the first line. So I inserted a 
 hyphenation point after the -. This shows on the LyX screen as sort of -- 
 which is my original n-dash and a shorter blue dash, probably supposed to 
 represent a hyphen. This is all great, but when this version is rendered, the 
 line break now appears after crosstalk--, that is, both the n-dash _and_ the 
 hyphenation point are rendered which looks very wrong. What is the 
 typographer's say on this, and is LyX doing the right thing. Also, is this a 
 LyX problem or a TeX problem? My guess the typographer would say, let the 
 n-dash stand alone if it occurs at a line break.
 
 Jerry

Thanks for all your kind responses.

I need to clear up this thread for a few reasons.

I started it with a muddle-headed premise--that the n-dash is appropriately 
used in places such as crosstalk-cancelled; it is not. A hyphen should be used 
there. I've known this since grammar school and for some reason a bit in my 
brain flipped (bit rot's a bitch) a couple months ago and I started doing it 
wrong. So the best thing would be to ignore this whole thread. However...

LyX, apparently like LaTeX and I suppose TeX, denotes the hyphen as an actual 
hyphen -, the n-dash as two hyphens --, and the m-dash as three hyphens ---. 
When entered this way in LyX, line breaking, if necessary, happens as expected, 
after the hyphen or dash. However...

Something curious happens on my computer which is a Macintosh. I don't know if 
it happens on other computers but it would be interesting to know. (Hint.) 
Specifically, on Macs the n-dash is entered with Option-hyphen and the m-dash 
with Shift-Option-hyphen; this has been the case since 1984 and my fingers know 
it well. The LyX documentation says that the - -- --- method should be used. 
(It does not say _not_ to do the Mac-like thing.) Being contrary (and a newish 
LyX user) I tried the traditional Mac way, and it works--the desired character 
is displayed on the LyX window and also is rendered correctly in printed 
output. So that is the habit I continued for working in LyX. Therein lies my 
problem. Even though the traditional Mac entry method displays correctly 
on-screen and in-print, the n- and m-dash so entered DO NOT ALLOW LINE BREAKS. 
And that's why I wrote.

Is this worth a request ticket--to make these alternate entry methods 
compatible with LyX?

Jerry

Some remedial reading for me:
http://www.dashhyphen.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash

Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

2014-09-03 Thread Rich Shepard


On Wed, 3 Sep 2014, Jerry wrote:


Something curious happens on my computer which is a Macintosh. I don't
know if it happens on other computers but it would be interesting to know.
(Hint.)


Jerry,

  On linux running on Intel and AMD processors the only way to enter a
hyphen, n-dash, and m-dash is to use -, --, and ---. Never had a problem
with incorrect line breaks with any of 'em over the years.

Rich

Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

2014-09-03 Thread Jerry

On Aug 28, 2014, at 4:03 AM, Jerry lancebo...@qwest.net wrote:

 I have a fancy hyphenated word, crosstalk-cancelled, where I spell it with (I 
 believe) the proper - which is an n-dash. When this is rendered in the 
 vicinity of a line wrap, the entire thing gets pushed to the next line, 
 leaving a lot of ugly white space in the first line. So I inserted a 
 hyphenation point after the -. This shows on the LyX screen as sort of -- 
 which is my original n-dash and a shorter blue dash, probably supposed to 
 represent a hyphen. This is all great, but when this version is rendered, the 
 line break now appears after crosstalk--, that is, both the n-dash _and_ the 
 hyphenation point are rendered which looks very wrong. What is the 
 typographer's say on this, and is LyX doing the right thing. Also, is this a 
 LyX problem or a TeX problem? My guess the typographer would say, let the 
 n-dash stand alone if it occurs at a line break.
 
 Jerry

Thanks for all your kind responses.

I need to clear up this thread for a few reasons.

I started it with a muddle-headed premise--that the n-dash is appropriately 
used in places such as crosstalk-cancelled; it is not. A hyphen should be used 
there. I've known this since grammar school and for some reason a bit in my 
brain flipped (bit rot's a bitch) a couple months ago and I started doing it 
wrong. So the best thing would be to ignore this whole thread. However...

LyX, apparently like LaTeX and I suppose TeX, denotes the hyphen as an actual 
hyphen -, the n-dash as two hyphens --, and the m-dash as three hyphens ---. 
When entered this way in LyX, line breaking, if necessary, happens as expected, 
after the hyphen or dash. However...

Something curious happens on my computer which is a Macintosh. I don't know if 
it happens on other computers but it would be interesting to know. (Hint.) 
Specifically, on Macs the n-dash is entered with Option-hyphen and the m-dash 
with Shift-Option-hyphen; this has been the case since 1984 and my fingers know 
it well. The LyX documentation says that the - -- --- method should be used. 
(It does not say _not_ to do the Mac-like thing.) Being contrary (and a newish 
LyX user) I tried the traditional Mac way, and it works--the desired character 
is displayed on the LyX window and also is rendered correctly in printed 
output. So that is the habit I continued for working in LyX. Therein lies my 
problem. Even though the traditional Mac entry method displays correctly 
on-screen and in-print, the n- and m-dash so entered DO NOT ALLOW LINE BREAKS. 
And that's why I wrote.

Is this worth a request ticket--to make these alternate entry methods 
compatible with LyX?

Jerry

Some remedial reading for me:
http://www.dashhyphen.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash

Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

2014-09-03 Thread Rich Shepard


On Wed, 3 Sep 2014, Jerry wrote:


Something curious happens on my computer which is a Macintosh. I don't
know if it happens on other computers but it would be interesting to know.
(Hint.)


Jerry,

  On linux running on Intel and AMD processors the only way to enter a
hyphen, n-dash, and m-dash is to use -, --, and ---. Never had a problem
with incorrect line breaks with any of 'em over the years.

Rich

Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

2014-09-03 Thread Jerry

On Aug 28, 2014, at 4:03 AM, Jerry  wrote:

> I have a fancy hyphenated word, crosstalk-cancelled, where I spell it with (I 
> believe) the proper - which is an n-dash. When this is rendered in the 
> vicinity of a line wrap, the entire thing gets pushed to the next line, 
> leaving a lot of ugly white space in the first line. So I inserted a 
> hyphenation point after the -. This shows on the LyX screen as sort of -- 
> which is my original n-dash and a shorter blue dash, probably supposed to 
> represent a hyphen. This is all great, but when this version is rendered, the 
> line break now appears after crosstalk--, that is, both the n-dash _and_ the 
> hyphenation point are rendered which looks very wrong. What is the 
> typographer's say on this, and is LyX doing the right thing. Also, is this a 
> LyX problem or a TeX problem? My guess the typographer would say, let the 
> n-dash stand alone if it occurs at a line break.
> 
> Jerry

Thanks for all your kind responses.

I need to clear up this thread for a few reasons.

I started it with a muddle-headed premise--that the n-dash is appropriately 
used in places such as crosstalk-cancelled; it is not. A hyphen should be used 
there. I've known this since grammar school and for some reason a bit in my 
brain flipped (bit rot's a bitch) a couple months ago and I started doing it 
wrong. So the best thing would be to ignore this whole thread. However...

LyX, apparently like LaTeX and I suppose TeX, denotes the hyphen as an actual 
hyphen -, the n-dash as two hyphens --, and the m-dash as three hyphens ---. 
When entered this way in LyX, line breaking, if necessary, happens as expected, 
after the hyphen or dash. However...

Something curious happens on my computer which is a Macintosh. I don't know if 
it happens on other computers but it would be interesting to know. (Hint.) 
Specifically, on Macs the n-dash is entered with Option-hyphen and the m-dash 
with Shift-Option-hyphen; this has been the case since 1984 and my fingers know 
it well. The LyX documentation says that the - -- --- method should be used. 
(It does not say _not_ to do the Mac-like thing.) Being contrary (and a newish 
LyX user) I tried the traditional Mac way, and it works--the desired character 
is displayed on the LyX window and also is rendered correctly in printed 
output. So that is the habit I continued for working in LyX. Therein lies my 
problem. Even though the traditional Mac entry method displays correctly 
on-screen and in-print, the n- and m-dash so entered DO NOT ALLOW LINE BREAKS. 
And that's why I wrote.

Is this worth a request ticket--to make these alternate entry methods 
compatible with LyX?

Jerry

Some remedial reading for me:
http://www.dashhyphen.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dash

Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

2014-09-03 Thread Rich Shepard


On Wed, 3 Sep 2014, Jerry wrote:


Something curious happens on my computer which is a Macintosh. I don't
know if it happens on other computers but it would be interesting to know.
(Hint.)


Jerry,

  On linux running on Intel and AMD processors the only way to enter a
hyphen, n-dash, and m-dash is to use -, --, and ---. Never had a problem
with incorrect line breaks with any of 'em over the years.

Rich

Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

2014-08-28 Thread Jerry

I have a fancy hyphenated word, crosstalk-cancelled, where I spell it with (I 
believe) the proper - which is an n-dash. When this is rendered in the vicinity 
of a line wrap, the entire thing gets pushed to the next line, leaving a lot of 
ugly white space in the first line. So I inserted a hyphenation point after the 
-. This shows on the LyX screen as sort of -- which is my original n-dash and a 
shorter blue dash, probably supposed to represent a hyphen. This is all great, 
but when this version is rendered, the line break now appears after 
crosstalk--, that is, both the n-dash _and_ the hyphenation point are rendered 
which looks very wrong. What is the typographer's say on this, and is LyX doing 
the right thing. Also, is this a LyX problem or a TeX problem? My guess the 
typographer would say, let the n-dash stand alone if it occurs at a line break.

Jerry

Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break


On 08/28/2014 07:03 AM, Jerry wrote:

I have a fancy hyphenated word, crosstalk-cancelled, where I spell it with (I 
believe) the proper - which is an n-dash. When this is rendered in the vicinity 
of a line wrap, the entire thing gets pushed to the next line, leaving a lot of 
ugly white space in the first line. So I inserted a hyphenation point after the 
-. This shows on the LyX screen as sort of -- which is my original n-dash and a 
shorter blue dash, probably supposed to represent a hyphen. This is all great, 
but when this version is rendered, the line break now appears after 
crosstalk--, that is, both the n-dash _and_ the hyphenation point are rendered 
which looks very wrong. What is the typographer's say on this, and is LyX doing 
the right thing. Also, is this a LyX problem or a TeX problem? My guess the 
typographer would say, let the n-dash stand alone if it occurs at a line break.


Yes, the n-dash should stand alone, but LaTeX is doing what you are 
asking: You told it that it was OK to hyphenate there, so it has. What 
you want is the \linebreak command instead. LyX does not have native 
support for this, so you have to use ERT. Note that you can use an 
optional argument with \linebreak, as well, from 0 to 4, which mean: you 
can break here; you really must break here. So you could try:

\linebreak[1]
in ERT to start. The advantage of using the optional argument is that, 
if you move some text around, LaTeX still has a chance of getting the 
linebreaking right, whereas if you insist the line be broken there, then 
things could go very ugly.


Richard

Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:03 AM, Jerry lancebo...@qwest.net wrote:

I have a fancy hyphenated word, crosstalk-cancelled, where I spell it with
(I believe) the proper - which is an n-dash. When this is rendered in the
vicinity of a line wrap, the entire thing gets pushed to the next line,
leaving a lot of ugly white space in the first line. So I inserted a
hyphenation point after the -. This shows on the LyX screen as sort of --
which is my original n-dash and a shorter blue dash, probably supposed to
represent a hyphen. This is all great, but when this version is rendered,
the line break now appears after crosstalk--, that is, both the n-dash
_and_ the hyphenation point are rendered which looks very wrong. What is
the typographer's say on this, and is LyX doing the right thing. Also, is
this a LyX problem or a TeX problem? My guess the typographer would say,
let the n-dash stand alone if it occurs at a line break.

This stackexchange question [1] contains more info than you probably wished
for, but it may still be useful in laying out the various ways to approach
the problem. Richard's suggestion (\newline) is indeed one of those listed.
Of course, all solution refer to LaTeX an not Lyxd, which means you can use
them only if you insert them in ERT boxes (and add the corresponding
packages, when needed, to your Document's preamble)

Cheers,

Stefano

[1]
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2193307/how-to-get-latex-to-hyphenate-a-word-that-contains-a-dash

--
__
Stefano Franchi

stefano.fran...@gmail.com stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

On 08/28/2014 11:43 AM, stefano franchi wrote:

On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:03 AM, Jerry lancebo...@qwest.net
mailto:lancebo...@qwest.net wrote:

I have a fancy hyphenated word, crosstalk-cancelled, where I spell
it with (I believe) the proper - which is an n-dash. When this is
rendered in the vicinity of a line wrap, the entire thing gets
pushed to the next line, leaving a lot of ugly white space in the
first line. So I inserted a hyphenation point after the -. This
shows on the LyX screen as sort of -- which is my original n-dash
and a shorter blue dash, probably supposed to represent a hyphen.
This is all great, but when this version is rendered, the line
break now appears after crosstalk--, that is, both the n-dash
_and_ the hyphenation point are rendered which looks very wrong.
What is the typographer's say on this, and is LyX doing the right
thing. Also, is this a LyX problem or a TeX problem? My guess the
typographer would say, let the n-dash stand alone if it occurs at
a line break.

This stackexchange question [1] contains more info than you probably
wished for, but it may still be useful in laying out the various ways
to approach the problem. Richard's suggestion (\newline) is indeed one
of those listed. Of course, all solution refer to LaTeX an not Lyxd,
which means you can use them only if you insert them in ERT boxes (and
add the corresponding packages, when needed, to your Document's preamble)

[1]
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2193307/how-to-get-latex-to-hyphenate-a-word-that-contains-a-dash

Wow, that is a lot of information! Mostly, that deals with cases where
you use the word a lot. I took this to be more of a one-off sort of
issue. But I'm going to save that link

Richard

Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:

On 08/28/2014 11:43 AM, stefano franchi wrote:

On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:03 AM, Jerry lancebo...@qwest.net wrote:

I have a fancy hyphenated word, crosstalk-cancelled, where I spell it
with (I believe) the proper - which is an n-dash. When this is rendered in
the vicinity of a line wrap, the entire thing gets pushed to the next line,
leaving a lot of ugly white space in the first line. So I inserted a
hyphenation point after the -. This shows on the LyX screen as sort of --
which is my original n-dash and a shorter blue dash, probably supposed to
represent a hyphen. This is all great, but when this version is rendered,
the line break now appears after crosstalk--, that is, both the n-dash
_and_ the hyphenation point are rendered which looks very wrong. What is
the typographer's say on this, and is LyX doing the right thing. Also, is
this a LyX problem or a TeX problem? My guess the typographer would say,
let the n-dash stand alone if it occurs at a line break.

This stackexchange question [1] contains more info than you probably
wished for, but it may still be useful in laying out the various ways to
approach the problem. Richard's suggestion (\newline) is indeed one of
those listed. Of course, all solution refer to LaTeX an not Lyxd, which
means you can use them only if you insert them in ERT boxes (and add the
corresponding packages, when needed, to your Document's preamble)

[1]
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2193307/how-to-get-latex-to-hyphenate-a-word-that-contains-a-dash

Wow, that is a lot of information! Mostly, that deals with cases where you
use the word a lot. I took this to be more of a one-off sort of issue. But
I'm going to save that link

Well, for more time-wasting typographic fun, you could also read the
following SX question [1]. Look in particular at the answer from Lover of
Structure One of the highest ranked). Best explanation I have ever found
of the difference between hyphen and en-dash in compound words.

Cheers,

[1] http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/3819/dashes-vs-vs

--
__
Stefano Franchi

stefano.fran...@gmail.com stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

2014-08-28 Thread Jerry

I have a fancy hyphenated word, crosstalk-cancelled, where I spell it with (I 
believe) the proper - which is an n-dash. When this is rendered in the vicinity 
of a line wrap, the entire thing gets pushed to the next line, leaving a lot of 
ugly white space in the first line. So I inserted a hyphenation point after the 
-. This shows on the LyX screen as sort of -- which is my original n-dash and a 
shorter blue dash, probably supposed to represent a hyphen. This is all great, 
but when this version is rendered, the line break now appears after 
crosstalk--, that is, both the n-dash _and_ the hyphenation point are rendered 
which looks very wrong. What is the typographer's say on this, and is LyX doing 
the right thing. Also, is this a LyX problem or a TeX problem? My guess the 
typographer would say, let the n-dash stand alone if it occurs at a line break.

Jerry

Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break


On 08/28/2014 07:03 AM, Jerry wrote:

I have a fancy hyphenated word, crosstalk-cancelled, where I spell it with (I 
believe) the proper - which is an n-dash. When this is rendered in the vicinity 
of a line wrap, the entire thing gets pushed to the next line, leaving a lot of 
ugly white space in the first line. So I inserted a hyphenation point after the 
-. This shows on the LyX screen as sort of -- which is my original n-dash and a 
shorter blue dash, probably supposed to represent a hyphen. This is all great, 
but when this version is rendered, the line break now appears after 
crosstalk--, that is, both the n-dash _and_ the hyphenation point are rendered 
which looks very wrong. What is the typographer's say on this, and is LyX doing 
the right thing. Also, is this a LyX problem or a TeX problem? My guess the 
typographer would say, let the n-dash stand alone if it occurs at a line break.


Yes, the n-dash should stand alone, but LaTeX is doing what you are 
asking: You told it that it was OK to hyphenate there, so it has. What 
you want is the \linebreak command instead. LyX does not have native 
support for this, so you have to use ERT. Note that you can use an 
optional argument with \linebreak, as well, from 0 to 4, which mean: you 
can break here; you really must break here. So you could try:

\linebreak[1]
in ERT to start. The advantage of using the optional argument is that, 
if you move some text around, LaTeX still has a chance of getting the 
linebreaking right, whereas if you insist the line be broken there, then 
things could go very ugly.


Richard

Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:03 AM, Jerry lancebo...@qwest.net wrote:

Cheers,

Stefano

[1]
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2193307/how-to-get-latex-to-hyphenate-a-word-that-contains-a-dash

--
__
Stefano Franchi

stefano.fran...@gmail.com stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

On 08/28/2014 11:43 AM, stefano franchi wrote:

On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:03 AM, Jerry lancebo...@qwest.net
mailto:lancebo...@qwest.net wrote:

I have a fancy hyphenated word, crosstalk-cancelled, where I spell
it with (I believe) the proper - which is an n-dash. When this is
rendered in the vicinity of a line wrap, the entire thing gets
pushed to the next line, leaving a lot of ugly white space in the
first line. So I inserted a hyphenation point after the -. This
shows on the LyX screen as sort of -- which is my original n-dash
and a shorter blue dash, probably supposed to represent a hyphen.
This is all great, but when this version is rendered, the line
break now appears after crosstalk--, that is, both the n-dash
_and_ the hyphenation point are rendered which looks very wrong.
What is the typographer's say on this, and is LyX doing the right
thing. Also, is this a LyX problem or a TeX problem? My guess the
typographer would say, let the n-dash stand alone if it occurs at
a line break.

This stackexchange question [1] contains more info than you probably
wished for, but it may still be useful in laying out the various ways
to approach the problem. Richard's suggestion (\newline) is indeed one
of those listed. Of course, all solution refer to LaTeX an not Lyxd,
which means you can use them only if you insert them in ERT boxes (and
add the corresponding packages, when needed, to your Document's preamble)

[1]
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2193307/how-to-get-latex-to-hyphenate-a-word-that-contains-a-dash

Wow, that is a lot of information! Mostly, that deals with cases where
you use the word a lot. I took this to be more of a one-off sort of
issue. But I'm going to save that link

Richard

Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 11:19 AM, Richard Heck rgh...@lyx.org wrote:

On 08/28/2014 11:43 AM, stefano franchi wrote:

On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:03 AM, Jerry lancebo...@qwest.net wrote:

I have a fancy hyphenated word, crosstalk-cancelled, where I spell it
with (I believe) the proper - which is an n-dash. When this is rendered in
the vicinity of a line wrap, the entire thing gets pushed to the next line,
leaving a lot of ugly white space in the first line. So I inserted a
hyphenation point after the -. This shows on the LyX screen as sort of --
which is my original n-dash and a shorter blue dash, probably supposed to
represent a hyphen. This is all great, but when this version is rendered,
the line break now appears after crosstalk--, that is, both the n-dash
_and_ the hyphenation point are rendered which looks very wrong. What is
the typographer's say on this, and is LyX doing the right thing. Also, is
this a LyX problem or a TeX problem? My guess the typographer would say,
let the n-dash stand alone if it occurs at a line break.

This stackexchange question [1] contains more info than you probably
wished for, but it may still be useful in laying out the various ways to
approach the problem. Richard's suggestion (\newline) is indeed one of
those listed. Of course, all solution refer to LaTeX an not Lyxd, which
means you can use them only if you insert them in ERT boxes (and add the
corresponding packages, when needed, to your Document's preamble)

[1]
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2193307/how-to-get-latex-to-hyphenate-a-word-that-contains-a-dash

Wow, that is a lot of information! Mostly, that deals with cases where you
use the word a lot. I took this to be more of a one-off sort of issue. But
I'm going to save that link

Cheers,

[1] http://tex.stackexchange.com/questions/3819/dashes-vs-vs

--
__
Stefano Franchi

stefano.fran...@gmail.com stef...@tamu.edu
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

2014-08-28 Thread Jerry

I have a fancy hyphenated word, crosstalk-cancelled, where I spell it with (I 
believe) the proper - which is an n-dash. When this is rendered in the vicinity 
of a line wrap, the entire thing gets pushed to the next line, leaving a lot of 
ugly white space in the first line. So I inserted a hyphenation point after the 
-. This shows on the LyX screen as sort of -- which is my original n-dash and a 
shorter blue dash, probably supposed to represent a hyphen. This is all great, 
but when this version is rendered, the line break now appears after 
crosstalk--, that is, both the n-dash _and_ the hyphenation point are rendered 
which looks very wrong. What is the typographer's say on this, and is LyX doing 
the right thing. Also, is this a LyX problem or a TeX problem? My guess the 
typographer would say, let the n-dash stand alone if it occurs at a line break.

Jerry

Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break


On 08/28/2014 07:03 AM, Jerry wrote:

I have a fancy hyphenated word, crosstalk-cancelled, where I spell it with (I 
believe) the proper - which is an n-dash. When this is rendered in the vicinity 
of a line wrap, the entire thing gets pushed to the next line, leaving a lot of 
ugly white space in the first line. So I inserted a hyphenation point after the 
-. This shows on the LyX screen as sort of -- which is my original n-dash and a 
shorter blue dash, probably supposed to represent a hyphen. This is all great, 
but when this version is rendered, the line break now appears after 
crosstalk--, that is, both the n-dash _and_ the hyphenation point are rendered 
which looks very wrong. What is the typographer's say on this, and is LyX doing 
the right thing. Also, is this a LyX problem or a TeX problem? My guess the 
typographer would say, let the n-dash stand alone if it occurs at a line break.


Yes, the n-dash should stand alone, but LaTeX is doing what you are 
asking: You told it that it was OK to hyphenate there, so it has. What 
you want is the \linebreak command instead. LyX does not have native 
support for this, so you have to use ERT. Note that you can use an 
optional argument with \linebreak, as well, from 0 to 4, which mean: you 
can break here; you really must break here. So you could try:

\linebreak[1]
in ERT to start. The advantage of using the optional argument is that, 
if you move some text around, LaTeX still has a chance of getting the 
linebreaking right, whereas if you insist the line be broken there, then 
things could go very ugly.


Richard

Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:03 AM, Jerry  wrote:

> I have a fancy hyphenated word, crosstalk-cancelled, where I spell it with
> (I believe) the proper - which is an n-dash. When this is rendered in the
> vicinity of a line wrap, the entire thing gets pushed to the next line,
> leaving a lot of ugly white space in the first line. So I inserted a
> hyphenation point after the -. This shows on the LyX screen as sort of --
> which is my original n-dash and a shorter blue dash, probably supposed to
> represent a hyphen. This is all great, but when this version is rendered,
> the line break now appears after crosstalk--, that is, both the n-dash
> _and_ the hyphenation point are rendered which looks very wrong. What is
> the typographer's say on this, and is LyX doing the right thing. Also, is
> this a LyX problem or a TeX problem? My guess the typographer would say,
> let the n-dash stand alone if it occurs at a line break.
>
>

This stackexchange question [1] contains more info than you probably wished
for, but it may still be useful in laying out the various ways to approach
the problem. Richard's suggestion (\newline) is indeed one of those listed.
Of course, all solution refer to LaTeX an not Lyxd, which means you can use
them only if you insert them in ERT boxes (and add the corresponding
packages, when needed, to your Document's preamble)

Cheers,

Stefano

[1]
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2193307/how-to-get-latex-to-hyphenate-a-word-that-contains-a-dash

-- 
__
Stefano Franchi

stefano.fran...@gmail.com 
http://stefano.cleinias.org

Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break

On 08/28/2014 11:43 AM, stefano franchi wrote:

On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 6:03 AM, Jerry > wrote:

I have a fancy hyphenated word, crosstalk-cancelled, where I spell
it with (I believe) the proper - which is an n-dash. When this is
rendered in the vicinity of a line wrap, the entire thing gets
pushed to the next line, leaving a lot of ugly white space in the
first line. So I inserted a hyphenation point after the -. This
shows on the LyX screen as sort of -- which is my original n-dash
and a shorter blue dash, probably supposed to represent a hyphen.
This is all great, but when this version is rendered, the line
break now appears after crosstalk--, that is, both the n-dash
_and_ the hyphenation point are rendered which looks very wrong.
What is the typographer's say on this, and is LyX doing the right
thing. Also, is this a LyX problem or a TeX problem? My guess the
typographer would say, let the n-dash stand alone if it occurs at
a line break.

This stackexchange question [1] contains more info than you probably
wished for, but it may still be useful in laying out the various ways
to approach the problem. Richard's suggestion (\newline) is indeed one
of those listed. Of course, all solution refer to LaTeX an not Lyxd,
which means you can use them only if you insert them in ERT boxes (and
add the corresponding packages, when needed, to your Document's preamble)

[1]
http://stackoverflow.com/questions/2193307/how-to-get-latex-to-hyphenate-a-word-that-contains-a-dash

Wow, that is a lot of information! Mostly, that deals with cases where
you use the word a lot. I took this to be more of a one-off sort of
issue. But I'm going to save that link

Richard

Re: Hyphenating a hyphenated word at a line break