Re: Why touch event go through my window

2010-02-15 Thread Kimmo Hämäläinen
On Sun, 2010-02-14 at 04:09 +0100, ext Evan JIANG wrote:
 Thank you for your reply.
 Since I'm on travel now, I may could only try it some days later.
 
 I guess it's cause by the browser and hildon-desktop called some
 matchbox API directly, that
 maybe some MB APIs could hide the window and the window can not be
 shown again with GTK APIs.

No, there are no Matchbox(2) APIs used by applications. (The API is not
even available at all because the libmatchbox2 library is statically
linked to hildon-desktop, so no application is able to dynamically link
to it.)

My guess about your ghost window is that the X window stacking does
not match what the compositor shows on the screen. So it could be a bug
in hildon-desktop, or it could be some unsupported window type (that's
why I asked for xprop and xwininfo outputs).

 I found everything works well with FireFox borwser for Maemo.

That is interesting...  Have you tried the N900 browser in fullscreen
mode, does it work then?

 Here I could give more details about the window lifecycle.
 There's a scim-gtk-panel daemon which will auto start when system startup.
 When the daemon starts, it will create a winodw, and hide it immediately.
 Everytime when the input method need to show the input window, it will send
 command to the daemon to show the input window and move it to the front.
 When the inputing is done and edit field loses the focus, the input window 
 will
 be hidden by calling gtk_widget_hide

This should work if the window is supported by the window manager (to
see that I need the xprop  xwininfo outputs or a test program from
you).

 This design works all right on most of PC Desktop Linux.  As I said,
 it also works
 well for most applications on Maemo, except browser. In the Browser 
 application,
 when the input window is showing, and I click on other places to close
 the window,
 the window won't show again with gtk_widget_show_all.
 
 My current workaround is, when the input window need to be hidden, I
 will destroy
 the window, and next time when it need to be shown, I will create the
 window again.
 With this workaround, it works just OK now. But, the performance is
 much worse than
 before, since creating and destroying the window take longer time.

This workaround should not be necessary. We have many such windows, for
example the Select Connection dialog that you use to select connection
to the Internet.  It sounds like the window type is confusing to the
window manager and it does not behave right in this case.

-Kimmo

 
 Best regards,
 Evan JIANG
 2010/2/12 Kimmo Hämäläinen kimmo.hamalai...@nokia.com:
  On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 16:53 +0100, ext Evan JIANG wrote:
  Hi all,
 I'm developing an input method for N900.
 The main window is not full screen, and looks like this:
  http://www.evan129.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/20091225_d151774f028f00e741aecdywcKr7OnKn.png
 It works well in most of times. But in browser application, it's a
  bit strange.
 
 As you can see, there are some buttons in the panel, users can
  press the buttons to choose the words. In browser application,
  when users pressed the button, the event will go through my window to
  the browser. Then because of the press location is not in the same
  edit field, the edit field will lose the focus.
 
  I may not explained it clearly. Let me give an easier understanding
  example. If the window is in the top of screen, covered the title bar,
  then when I press the button on the left-top
  corner, it will show the application switch window. That means, the
  press event go through my window, and handled by the app swithcer
  button.
 
  What's the output of these commands for your window:
 
  xprop -id your window
  xwininfo -id your window
 
  These command line tools can be found from x11-utils package.
 
  -Kimmo
 
 
  These are the only 2 places I found that could receive my press event.
  But in all other places, I didn't find this happening.
 
  My panel is created with gtk_window_new (GTK_WINDOW_POPUP);
  And the buttons are created by gtk_button_new();. I use
  g_signal_connect to receive the clicked event or
  button-press-event event.
 
  Does anyone have any idea about that?
 
  Best regards,
  Evan JIANG
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Re: Bad Drawable when running hellogl_es2 example

2010-02-15 Thread Kimmo Hämäläinen
On Sun, 2010-02-14 at 11:34 +0100, ext Charles Han wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 I am having issue when running the example hellogl_es2 from QT. The 
 program segment fault on theN900 and showing this error message:
 X Error: BadDrawable (invalid Pixmap or Window Parameter) 9
 Extension: 134 (unknown extension)
 Minor opcode: 4 (unknow request)
 Resource id: 0x3e9
 
 It's an opengl es 2 example. any help?

Where is the source code?

-Kimmo

 
 Thanks
 
 Charles
 
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MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Jeremiah Foster
Intel and Nokia collaboration: http://meego.com/

Jeremiah
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Re: Developing virtual keyboard plugin for Maemo 5

2010-02-15 Thread kokilakr kr
Hello,

I took sample virtual keyboard plug-in source from following mail archive,

http://www.mail-archive.com/maemo-comm...@maemo.org/msg09120.html

compiled and verified hildon onehand keyboard plug-in.

So I think there is latest virtual keyboard plug-in example sources which
are not committed to
gitorious.orghttp://maemo.gitorious.org/fremantle-hildon-desktop/hildon-input-method-plugins-exampleyet.

Thanks for all the replies.



2010/2/12 kokilakr kr kokilakr...@gmail.com

 Hello,

 Thanks for the link.

 I referred


 http://download.opensuse.org/repositories/Maemo:/Mer:/Devel:/MaemoCommon/MerDevel_Ubuntu_9.04/

 And I could find few sample virtual keyboard plug-in installers and tried
 replacing the default keyboard plugin. It worked.

 But I could not find any API documentation or samples on how to use new
 framework APIs.

 Can you please provide me the link if any.

 Thanks




 On Fri, Feb 12, 2010 at 6:21 PM, Carsten Munk carsten.m...@gmail.comwrote:

 That one is not in use anymore. On build.opensuse.org in
 Maemo:Mer:Devel:MaemoCommon we have the hildon-input-plugins-example
 we use.

 2010/2/12 kokilakr kr kokilakr...@gmail.com:
 
  Hello,
 
  Thanks. But I don't know how to use the latest framework. :-)
 
  But in link,
  https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4178
 
  it is written,
 
  Comment #22 from Murray Cumming   2009-10-14 11:11:24 GMT+3 [reply]
 
  I've heard from the Mer developers that these examples now work in a
 public
  SDK
  (Maemo 5.0 Final). Fixed.
 
  They say the examples work with Maemo 5.0.
 
  But in Mer there is only one example virtual keyboard plugin,
  http://gitorious.org/mer/him-arabic
 
  which also contains unsupported APIs.
 
  Thanks,
 
 
 
 
  2010/2/12 Kimmo Hämäläinen kimmo.hamalai...@nokia.com
 
  On Fri, 2010-02-12 at 13:21 +0100, ext kokilakr kr wrote:
   Hello,
  
   But is this the latest example?
  
   The code contains functions which are unsupported in latest SDK,
hildon_im_ui_button_set_toggle()
hildon_im_ui_button_set_label()
  
hildon_im_ui_button_*
 
  Yes, it hasn't been updated after September 2007, it seems :)  I can
  give you commit rights if you can do it ;)
 
  -Kimmo
 
  
   Thanks,
  
  
   2010/2/12 Kimmo Hämäläinen kimmo.hamalai...@nokia.com
   On Fri, 2010-02-12 at 12:17 +0100, ext Daniel Martin Yerga
   wrote:
Hi.
   
On 12/02/10 09:54, kokilakr kr wrote:
 Hello All,

 Thanks for information about out dated documentation.

 But I could not find any information, examples or sample
   virtual keyboard
 based on new framework. And the header file do not
 contain
   any alternate
 APIs.

 So does this mean we cannot modify system wide virtual
   keyboard plugin on
 Maemo 5?

 Thanks,

   
Yes, we can.
   
In this bug report [1] you will find the right information.
   
The examples used to be in [2] (there was even a portrait
   keyboard), but
after the shutdown of the SVN at stage.maemo.org I don't
   know where the
examples are now. I was not be able to find it in gitorious
   [3]
  
  
   Yes, we forgot to move this package. I put it to Gitorious
   now, using
   the source package contents:
  
  
 http://maemo.gitorious.org/fremantle-hildon-desktop/hildon-input-method-plugins-example
  
   -Kimmo
  
  
   
[1] https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=4178
[2]
   
  
  
 https://stage.maemo.org/svn/maemo/projects/haf/trunk/hildon-input-method-plugins-example/
[3] http://maemo.gitorious.org/fremantle-hildon-desktop
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RE: Bad Drawable when running hellogl_es2 example

2010-02-15 Thread Charles Han

Hi Kimmo,

The source is from: 
http://qt.gitorious.org/qt/qt/trees/4.5/examples/opengl/hellogl_es2

Thanks

Charles
  
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Johan Helsingius
Jeremiah Foster wrote:

 Intel and Nokia collaboration: http://meego.com/

Right, sounds like maemo will be merged into meego.

Julf
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Luca De Cicco
Sorry I didn't cc the list.

I guess that the follow ups of this story will be very interesting.
For starters,
MeeGo claims to target automotive, where Intel has a very thin market
share (if any).
Will Intel bend to ARM for the development of MeeGo? Except for
netbooks that ship
Atom CPUs all the other MeeGo targets seem to be ARM devices.

Any thoughts?

Luca

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Johan Helsingius j...@julf.com wrote:
 Luca,

 So maemo-as-we-know will disappear and will reborn under the name of
 MeeGo?

 Well, disappear probably, but sounds like parts of the maemo effort
 will be carried over into meego.

 Does this mean that maemo-as-we-will-know is going to be
 completely opensource?

 Probably not. Seems the meego kernel is coming from the Intel
 moblin stuff, with the user interface/Qt library from Maemo.
 So my guess is that the UI stuff will be totally open source,
 but nokia-phone-specific stuff might still stay proprietary.

 No idea about what happens to official Nokia apps, such
 as Ovi maps.

        Julf
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Max
Nokia N900 is still not available here in the phone povider houses.
There is coding and coding and no releasing.
In the end google will buy Nokia and me and Amigo will be 23andme.
Ami go home!
there is no linux mobile phone for the masses, because the merge is delaying.
We need the N900 with actual Qt software in the market, not not mameo
5, but as well not meego in 2 years. we need maemo6 now on the nokia
N900 and a release in the phone houses.
Open Source they know, but not marketing, they do not know.
Remember my words:  Google needs Phones, and Nokia provides them,
So Nokia is a fish to eat! Nokia should merge with Acer. Anyhow.
Users in the market wait for the N900. Any solution to send them one
with phonehouse contract?

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:49 PM, Luca De Cicco ldeci...@gmail.com wrote:
 Sorry I didn't cc the list.

 I guess that the follow ups of this story will be very interesting.
 For starters,
 MeeGo claims to target automotive, where Intel has a very thin market
 share (if any).
 Will Intel bend to ARM for the development of MeeGo? Except for
 netbooks that ship
 Atom CPUs all the other MeeGo targets seem to be ARM devices.

 Any thoughts?

 Luca

 On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Johan Helsingius j...@julf.com wrote:
 Luca,

 So maemo-as-we-know will disappear and will reborn under the name of
 MeeGo?

 Well, disappear probably, but sounds like parts of the maemo effort
 will be carried over into meego.

 Does this mean that maemo-as-we-will-know is going to be
 completely opensource?

 Probably not. Seems the meego kernel is coming from the Intel
 moblin stuff, with the user interface/Qt library from Maemo.
 So my guess is that the UI stuff will be totally open source,
 but nokia-phone-specific stuff might still stay proprietary.

 No idea about what happens to official Nokia apps, such
 as Ovi maps.

        Julf
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Is package importing working?

2010-02-15 Thread Sascha Mäkelä
Two days ago autobuilder wasn't working for me. Now that it works, package
importing doesn't seem to work, as I uploaded a package some time ago and
while building succeeded, it hasn't been imported yet. This is getting
old...

Anyway, has anybody noticed the same?

Thanks,

Sascha
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Re: Is package importing working?

2010-02-15 Thread Luca Donaggio
It seems so... I promoted a package from -devel to -testing three hours ago
and the package interface is reporting its status as promoted but not
imported yet.


On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Sascha Mäkelä sascha.mak...@gmail.comwrote:

 Two days ago autobuilder wasn't working for me. Now that it works, package
 importing doesn't seem to work, as I uploaded a package some time ago and
 while building succeeded, it hasn't been imported yet. This is getting
 old...

 Anyway, has anybody noticed the same?

 Thanks,

 Sascha

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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Patrick Ohly
On Mo, 2010-02-15 at 12:49 +0100, Luca De Cicco wrote:
 Will Intel bend to ARM for the development of MeeGo? Except for
 netbooks that ship
 Atom CPUs all the other MeeGo targets seem to be ARM 

Chris Davies (Slashgear) says it will:
Of course, since other devices support Qt – such as Symbian –
apps will also load on those handsets too.  As for hardware
support, MeeGo will run on both x86 Intel Atom processors and
ARM-based chipsets more commonly found in mobile handsets.

http://www.slashgear.com/nokia-and-intel-launch-meego-moblin-and-maemo-merge-1573930/

Disclaimer: I'm an Intel employee working on data synchronization in
Moblin (SyncEvolution), but I'm not speaking for Intel in any way. I'm
posting here with my private email address because that is the one I
subscribed to this list before SyncEvolution became my main job.

-- 
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--  
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http://www.estamos.de/


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Re: Is package importing working?

2010-02-15 Thread Andrei Mirestean
Yesterday evening it worked ok, but this morning I have the same problem.

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Luca Donaggio donag...@gmail.com wrote:

 It seems so... I promoted a package from -devel to -testing three hours ago
 and the package interface is reporting its status as promoted but not
 imported yet.


 On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Sascha Mäkelä sascha.mak...@gmail.comwrote:

 Two days ago autobuilder wasn't working for me. Now that it works, package
 importing doesn't seem to work, as I uploaded a package some time ago and
 while building succeeded, it hasn't been imported yet. This is getting
 old...

 Anyway, has anybody noticed the same?

 Thanks,

 Sascha

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 --
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Jeremiah Foster

On Feb 15, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Luca De Cicco wrote:
 
 I guess that the follow ups of this story will be very interesting.
 For starters,
 MeeGo claims to target automotive, where Intel has a very thin market
 share (if any).

Umm, perhaps you haven't seen the GenIVI consortium? (http://genivi.org) That 
is an automobile consortium with lots of big players. They use Intel's Moblin.

 Will Intel bend to ARM for the development of MeeGo?

I think they see the writing on the wall. Companies do not want a single 
vendor, architecture, programming language, etc. They want a healthy, diverse 
ecosystem. So ARM naturally has to be a part of it. It is a member of the 
GenIVI consortium BTW.

 Except for
 netbooks that ship
 Atom CPUs all the other MeeGo targets seem to be ARM devices.
 
 Any thoughts?

This is an acknowledgement that the playing field is level. Let those who can 
develop, deploy, and market win. Those who try to lock you into their own 
platform (Apple, Google, Windows) won't be able to compete with thousands of 
developers, both paid and unpaid.

Jeremiah

 
 Luca
 
 On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Johan Helsingius j...@julf.com wrote:
 Luca,
 
 So maemo-as-we-know will disappear and will reborn under the name of
 MeeGo?
 
 Well, disappear probably, but sounds like parts of the maemo effort
 will be carried over into meego.
 
 Does this mean that maemo-as-we-will-know is going to be
 completely opensource?
 
 Probably not. Seems the meego kernel is coming from the Intel
 moblin stuff, with the user interface/Qt library from Maemo.
 So my guess is that the UI stuff will be totally open source,
 but nokia-phone-specific stuff might still stay proprietary.
 
 No idea about what happens to official Nokia apps, such
 as Ovi maps.
 
Julf
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Re: Is package importing working?

2010-02-15 Thread Jeremiah Foster

On Feb 15, 2010, at 1:41 PM, Andrei Mirestean wrote:

 Yesterday evening it worked ok, but this morning I have the same problem.

Niels apparently was working on this.

Jeremiah

 
 On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Luca Donaggio donag...@gmail.com wrote:
 It seems so... I promoted a package from -devel to -testing three hours ago 
 and the package interface is reporting its status as promoted but not 
 imported yet.
 
 
 On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Sascha Mäkelä sascha.mak...@gmail.com 
 wrote:
 Two days ago autobuilder wasn't working for me. Now that it works, package 
 importing doesn't seem to work, as I uploaded a package some time ago and 
 while building succeeded, it hasn't been imported yet. This is getting old...
 
 Anyway, has anybody noticed the same?
 
 Thanks,
 
 Sascha
 
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 -- 
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 -- 
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Re: Is package importing working?

2010-02-15 Thread Niels Breet
There was a package 'stuck', which prevented the update. Everything should
be back to normal soon.

--
Niels Breet
maemo.org webmaster

 Yesterday evening it worked ok, but this morning I have the same problem.


 On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Luca Donaggio donag...@gmail.com
 wrote:


 It seems so... I promoted a package from -devel to -testing three hours
 ago and the package interface is reporting its status as promoted but
 not imported yet.



 On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Sascha Mäkelä
 sascha.mak...@gmail.comwrote:


 Two days ago autobuilder wasn't working for me. Now that it works,
 package importing doesn't seem to work, as I uploaded a package some
 time ago and while building succeeded, it hasn't been imported yet.
 This is getting
 old...

 Anyway, has anybody noticed the same?


 Thanks,


 Sascha


 --
 Luca Donaggio



 --
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Re: Is package importing working?

2010-02-15 Thread Luca Donaggio
Thanks Niels!


On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 2:09 PM, Niels Breet ni...@maemo.org wrote:

 There was a package 'stuck', which prevented the update. Everything should
 be back to normal soon.

 --
 Niels Breet
 maemo.org webmaster

  Yesterday evening it worked ok, but this morning I have the same problem.
 
 
  On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Luca Donaggio donag...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
 
  It seems so... I promoted a package from -devel to -testing three hours
  ago and the package interface is reporting its status as promoted but
  not imported yet.
 
 
 
  On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Sascha Mäkelä
  sascha.mak...@gmail.comwrote:
 
 
  Two days ago autobuilder wasn't working for me. Now that it works,
  package importing doesn't seem to work, as I uploaded a package some
  time ago and while building succeeded, it hasn't been imported yet.
  This is getting
  old...
 
  Anyway, has anybody noticed the same?
 
 
  Thanks,
 
 
  Sascha
 
 
  --
  Luca Donaggio
 
 
 
  --
  Andrei Mirestean





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Re: Is package importing working?

2010-02-15 Thread Andrei Mirestean
It works now, my package was imported.

Thanks!

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Niels Breet ni...@maemo.org wrote:

 There was a package 'stuck', which prevented the update. Everything should
 be back to normal soon.

 --
 Niels Breet
 maemo.org webmaster

  Yesterday evening it worked ok, but this morning I have the same problem.
 
 
  On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Luca Donaggio donag...@gmail.com
  wrote:
 
 
  It seems so... I promoted a package from -devel to -testing three hours
  ago and the package interface is reporting its status as promoted but
  not imported yet.
 
 
 
  On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Sascha Mäkelä
  sascha.mak...@gmail.comwrote:
 
 
  Two days ago autobuilder wasn't working for me. Now that it works,
  package importing doesn't seem to work, as I uploaded a package some
  time ago and while building succeeded, it hasn't been imported yet.
  This is getting
  old...
 
  Anyway, has anybody noticed the same?
 
 
  Thanks,
 
 
  Sascha
 
 
  --
  Luca Donaggio
 
 
 
  --
  Andrei Mirestean





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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Jeremiah Foster

On Feb 15, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Luca De Cicco wrote:
 
 I guess that the follow ups of this story will be very interesting.
 For starters,
 MeeGo claims to target automotive, where Intel has a very thin market
 share (if any).

Umm, perhaps you haven't seen the GenIVI consortium? (http://genivi.org) That 
is an automobile consortium with lots of big players. They use Intel's Moblin.

 Will Intel bend to ARM for the development of MeeGo?

I think they see the writing on the wall. Companies do not want a single 
vendor, architecture, programming language, etc. They want a healthy, diverse 
ecosystem. So ARM naturally has to be a part of it. It is a member of the 
GenIVI consortium BTW.

 Except for
 netbooks that ship
 Atom CPUs all the other MeeGo targets seem to be ARM devices.
 
 Any thoughts?

This is an acknowledgement that the playing field is level. Let those who can 
develop, deploy, and market win. Those who try to lock you into their own 
platform (Apple, Google, Windows) won't be able to compete with thousands of 
developers, both paid and unpaid.

Jeremiah

 
 Luca
 
 On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 12:32 PM, Johan Helsingius j...@julf.com wrote:
 Luca,
 
 So maemo-as-we-know will disappear and will reborn under the name of
 MeeGo?
 
 Well, disappear probably, but sounds like parts of the maemo effort
 will be carried over into meego.
 
 Does this mean that maemo-as-we-will-know is going to be
 completely opensource?
 
 Probably not. Seems the meego kernel is coming from the Intel
 moblin stuff, with the user interface/Qt library from Maemo.
 So my guess is that the UI stuff will be totally open source,
 but nokia-phone-specific stuff might still stay proprietary.
 
 No idea about what happens to official Nokia apps, such
 as Ovi maps.
 
Julf
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Ian
Hi,
I looked through the MeeGo site but could not see anything about
packaging. A while back Moblin moved away from .deb to .rpm to develop
more community around Moblin. Which (or maybe both?) will be supported
on MeeGo

Ian


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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Daniel Martin Yerga

On 15/02/10 14:26, Ian wrote:

Hi,
I looked through the MeeGo site but could not see anything about
packaging. A while back Moblin moved away from .deb to .rpm to develop
more community around Moblin. Which (or maybe both?) will be supported
on MeeGo

Ian


Meego will use .rpm: http://meego.com/about/faq

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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Ian
Hey
 Meego will use .rpm: http://meego.com/about/faq

thx..damn, i had looked at that page too - need more coffee obviously

Ian


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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Tor
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 14:30, Daniel Martin Yerga dye...@gmail.com wrote:

 Meego will use .rpm: http://meego.com/about/faq

This is very bad news IMO. I work a lot with both formats and I know
which one is less painful.

-Tor
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Andre Klapper
Am Montag, den 15.02.2010, 14:44 +0100 schrieb Tor:
 On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 14:30, Daniel Martin Yerga dye...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Meego will use .rpm: http://meego.com/about/faq
 
 This is very bad news IMO. I work a lot with both formats and I know
 which one is less painful.

And this is a very subjective comment that misses any arguments. ;-)

andre
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Michael Cronenworth

Tor wrote:

This is very bad news IMO. I work a lot with both formats and I know
which one is less painful.


Completely subjective. I work with both, and I can tell you the opposite.
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Michael Cronenworth

Jeremiah Foster wrote:

Intel and Nokia collaboration:http://meego.com/



I guess I'll be the first to ask then:

N900 support upgrade path planned?
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Thomas Tanner
the problem is not the package format itself but
they available applications using the package format.
Maemo uses .deb and already has lots of applications (plus Jebba's etch
build). For Moblin, OTOH, are they any applications?
Is there any good reason to switch to .rpm except for breaking
compatibility?

On 15.02.10 14:51, Andre Klapper wrote:
 Am Montag, den 15.02.2010, 14:44 +0100 schrieb Tor:
 On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 14:30, Daniel Martin Yerga dye...@gmail.com wrote:

 Meego will use .rpm: http://meego.com/about/faq

 This is very bad news IMO. I work a lot with both formats and I know
 which one is less painful.
 
 And this is a very subjective comment that misses any arguments. ;-)
 
 andre


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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Christopher Intemann
Its not to much an issue to convert deb-packages to rpm, though.
You might want to have a look at:
http://kitenet.net/~joey/code/alien/
I prefer rpm to deb as well.
Cheers,
 Chris

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 3:24 PM, Thomas Tanner tan...@gmx.de wrote:

 the problem is not the package format itself but
 they available applications using the package format.
 Maemo uses .deb and already has lots of applications (plus Jebba's etch
 build). For Moblin, OTOH, are they any applications?
 Is there any good reason to switch to .rpm except for breaking
 compatibility?

 On 15.02.10 14:51, Andre Klapper wrote:
  Am Montag, den 15.02.2010, 14:44 +0100 schrieb Tor:
  On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 14:30, Daniel Martin Yerga dye...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 
  Meego will use .rpm: http://meego.com/about/faq
 
  This is very bad news IMO. I work a lot with both formats and I know
  which one is less painful.
 
  And this is a very subjective comment that misses any arguments. ;-)
 
  andre


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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Henry Bilby - HMMB
MeeGO will support opengl?

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 6:52 AM, Jeremiah Foster 
jerem...@jeremiahfoster.com wrote:

 Intel and Nokia collaboration: http://meego.com/

 Jeremiah
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Jeremiah Foster

On Feb 15, 2010, at 4:40 PM, Thomas Tanner wrote:

 The problem is more complex than converting binary .debs to .rpms using
 a hack.

alien is not a hack. It is packaged and maintained by Joey Hess who wrote 
debhelper. Few people know more about debian's build system than Joey.

 The dependencies, the build script and Debian (ucf, debconf) or Maemo
 (maemo-optify) specific aspects of the sources would need to be adapted
 as well. Backporting to Maemo5 would also be more difficult.

Backporting is always going to be difficult. 

 Who benefits more from the merger, Moblin or Maemo?

Both benefit if we get the kind of scale that is imagined. We create a single 
platform to power many devices across the device spectrum. This is a battle for 
the operating system that works everywhere BUT the desktop, they already 
concede that Windows owns that and no one wants to fight there. 

Jeremiah
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Thomas Tanner
On 15.02.10 16:47, Jeremiah Foster wrote:
 The problem is more complex than converting binary .debs to .rpms
 using a hack.
 alien is not a hack.

the hack referes to a process ignoring the issues listed below. No
automated process can take into account all the distribution and program
specific quirks.

 The dependencies, the build script and Debian (ucf, debconf) or
 Maemo (maemo-optify) specific aspects of the sources would need to
 be adapted as well. Backporting to Maemo5 would also be more
 difficult.
 
 Who benefits more from the merger, Moblin or Maemo?
 Both benefit if we get the kind of scale that is imagined.

I'm not critising the merger itself, but how and what is merged
and whether that are top-down decisions or whether the community is
involved.

AFAIK there a hardly any Moblin specific third-party apps.
It could be much less effort to integrate the Moblin components
in a Debian based system than converting all Maemo apps to Moblin/RPM.

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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Jamie Bennett

On 15 Feb 2010, at 16:21, Thomas Tanner wrote:

 On 15.02.10 16:47, Jeremiah Foster wrote:
 The problem is more complex than converting binary .debs to .rpms
 using a hack.
 alien is not a hack.
 
 the hack referes to a process ignoring the issues listed below. No
 automated process can take into account all the distribution and program
 specific quirks.
 
 The dependencies, the build script and Debian (ucf, debconf) or
 Maemo (maemo-optify) specific aspects of the sources would need to
 be adapted as well. Backporting to Maemo5 would also be more
 difficult.
 
 Who benefits more from the merger, Moblin or Maemo?
 Both benefit if we get the kind of scale that is imagined.
 
 I'm not critising the merger itself, but how and what is merged
 and whether that are top-down decisions or whether the community is
 involved.
 
 AFAIK there a hardly any Moblin specific third-party apps.
 It could be much less effort to integrate the Moblin components
 in a Debian based system than converting all Maemo apps to Moblin/RPM.

Its already been done with the Ubuntu Moblin Remix. (Disclaimer, I work for 
Canonical who did the Moblin Remix).

 Thomas Tanner --

Regards,
Jamie.
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Luca De Cicco
I would stay away of packaging holy wars (packaging is boooring) :).
It is true that packaging has some technical implications, however
I would focus more on the scenario we are going to experience.

How  and who will manage the community efforts?
Is MeeGo going to be deployed on real commercial products (nokia phones,
tv sets)?

Generally, I'm a bit cautious when new mobile/embedded OS hit the news.
All of them promise heaven, but then very few are deployed in real
products (that is
Symbian, windows CE).

just my two cents,
Luca

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 5:21 PM, Thomas Tanner tan...@gmx.de wrote:
 On 15.02.10 16:47, Jeremiah Foster wrote:
 The problem is more complex than converting binary .debs to .rpms
 using a hack.
 alien is not a hack.

 the hack referes to a process ignoring the issues listed below. No
 automated process can take into account all the distribution and program
 specific quirks.

 The dependencies, the build script and Debian (ucf, debconf) or
 Maemo (maemo-optify) specific aspects of the sources would need to
 be adapted as well. Backporting to Maemo5 would also be more
 difficult.

 Who benefits more from the merger, Moblin or Maemo?
 Both benefit if we get the kind of scale that is imagined.

 I'm not critising the merger itself, but how and what is merged
 and whether that are top-down decisions or whether the community is
 involved.

 AFAIK there a hardly any Moblin specific third-party apps.
 It could be much less effort to integrate the Moblin components
 in a Debian based system than converting all Maemo apps to Moblin/RPM.

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 email: tan...@gmx.de
 GnuPG: 1024/5924D4DD
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battery indicator

2010-02-15 Thread Martin DeMello
I would like to augment the battery indicator in the status bar with a
something numeric (I'm thinking a single digit representing the
remaining battery charge to the nearest tenth). Where would I look to
get started with this?

martin
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Christopher Intemann
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 4:40 PM, Thomas Tanner tan...@gmx.de wrote:

 The problem is more complex than converting binary .debs to .rpms using
 a hack.
 The dependencies, the build script and Debian (ucf, debconf) or Maemo
 (maemo-optify) specific aspects of the sources would need to be adapted
 as well. Backporting to Maemo5 would also be more difficult.
 Who benefits more from the merger, Moblin or Maemo?

 Since MeeGo is about to become the successor of Maemo, I guess there won't
be any need to backport anything.
I guess that rpm is just more advanced than deb. Finally, most third party
software applicable to date is either binary or rpm, but not deb. It is
probably easier to convince developers to port their linux tools to MeeGo if
they're already familiar with the package management.
Cheers,
 Chris
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Dieter Plaetinck
On Mon, 15 Feb 2010 17:21:12 +0100
Thomas Tanner tan...@gmx.de wrote:


 AFAIK there a hardly any Moblin specific third-party apps.
 It could be much less effort to integrate the Moblin components
 in a Debian based system than converting all Maemo apps to Moblin/RPM.
 

of course that is what we - maemo guys - say.
The opinion of moblin developers might be the exact opposite ;)

Dieter

PS: I have no idea of moblin's size, so maybe you make a good point.  I
don't know.
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Re: Why touch event go through my window

2010-02-15 Thread Evan JIANG
Hi,
  Reply inline.

2010/2/15 Kimmo Hämäläinen kimmo.hamalai...@nokia.com:
 On Sun, 2010-02-14 at 04:09 +0100, ext Evan JIANG wrote:
 Thank you for your reply.
 Since I'm on travel now, I may could only try it some days later.

 I guess it's cause by the browser and hildon-desktop called some
 matchbox API directly, that
 maybe some MB APIs could hide the window and the window can not be
 shown again with GTK APIs.

 No, there are no Matchbox(2) APIs used by applications. (The API is not
 even available at all because the libmatchbox2 library is statically
 linked to hildon-desktop, so no application is able to dynamically link
 to it.)
I said that because of I saw
#include matchbox/core/mb-wm.h
and lots of APIs like mb_wm_* in hildon-desktop source code.
The code is from http://maemo.gitorious.org/fremantle-hildon-desktop .


 My guess about your ghost window is that the X window stacking does
 not match what the compositor shows on the screen. So it could be a bug
 in hildon-desktop, or it could be some unsupported window type (that's
 why I asked for xprop and xwininfo outputs).

 I found everything works well with FireFox borwser for Maemo.

 That is interesting...  Have you tried the N900 browser in fullscreen
 mode, does it work then?
No, it has the same problem in N900 browser with fullscreen mode.


 Here I could give more details about the window lifecycle.
 There's a scim-gtk-panel daemon which will auto start when system startup.
 When the daemon starts, it will create a winodw, and hide it immediately.
 Everytime when the input method need to show the input window, it will send
 command to the daemon to show the input window and move it to the front.
 When the inputing is done and edit field loses the focus, the input window 
 will
 be hidden by calling gtk_widget_hide

 This should work if the window is supported by the window manager (to
 see that I need the xprop  xwininfo outputs or a test program from
 you).
I did these on my window:

gtk_window_set_type_hint (GTK_WINDOW (_input_window),
GDK_WINDOW_TYPE_HINT_DIALOG);
gtk_widget_set_name (_input_window, hildon-input-method-ui);

But I've tried to comment these lines or change to other types or
names. It has the same problem.


 This design works all right on most of PC Desktop Linux.  As I said,
 it also works
 well for most applications on Maemo, except browser. In the Browser 
 application,
 when the input window is showing, and I click on other places to close
 the window,
 the window won't show again with gtk_widget_show_all.

 My current workaround is, when the input window need to be hidden, I
 will destroy
 the window, and next time when it need to be shown, I will create the
 window again.
 With this workaround, it works just OK now. But, the performance is
 much worse than
 before, since creating and destroying the window take longer time.

 This workaround should not be necessary. We have many such windows, for
 example the Select Connection dialog that you use to select connection
 to the Internet.  It sounds like the window type is confusing to the
 window manager and it does not behave right in this case.

The application is in mameo extras-devel repository. Could you help me
to test that?
You can get it from
http://repository.maemo.org/extras-devel/pool/fremantle/free/m/mscim/mscim_1.4.7-1maemo5_armel.deb
It's not the latest version in the repository. Because I've applied my
workaround since
mscim_1.4.7-1maemo6_armel, you need to try one before version 1.4.7-1maemo6.
And please also install mscim-googlepinyin package from maemo
extras-devel repository. The input method only works after both of
these 2 packages are installed.
After install these packages, you need to reboot the device. Focus in
an edit field, and press keys will show the input window.
Maybe you will need ctrl+space to turn on the input method.
It's a Chinese input method, but I think you don't need to care that.
Like, you can just press a to test.

Here is howto reproduce the problem:
1.Launch N900 browser, and goto google homepage.
2.Click the search field to make it able to input.
3.Press a with hard keyboard. The input window should show now.
4.Click other places in the web page, but not the edit field and
inside the input window. The input window will be hidden now.
Or maybe sometimes even you click the buttons in input window, the
problem will happen, too.

Then, no way to show the input window again.
If you do the same steps in other applications like conversation -
New SMS, the input window will still show when you next time press
a.

Not sure if these informations are enought.
Thank you very much for your help.

Best regards,
Evan JIANG
 -Kimmo


 Best regards,
 Evan JIANG
 2010/2/12 Kimmo Hämäläinen kimmo.hamalai...@nokia.com:
  On Sat, 2010-02-06 at 16:53 +0100, ext Evan JIANG wrote:
  Hi all,
     I'm developing an input method for N900.
     The main window is not full screen, and looks like this:
  

Re: MeeGo-Mailinglist Merge (MMM)

2010-02-15 Thread Max
Hello
both mailinglists will be disabled, and merged into the megoo mailinglist

Right? :-P

When? !
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Re: confusion about koffice viewer

2010-02-15 Thread Boudewijn Rempt
On Sunday 14 February 2010, Christopher Intemann wrote:


 I'm really confused now. Can the koffice viewer only display documents, or
 is editing and creation of new documents possible eventually?

The viewer can only view presentation and word processor documents, with 
spreadsheets coming and has a specialized interface for Maemo. I use it read 
documnets on the go, and it works for my needs. There also exists a complete 
port of an older beta of KOffice2 to Maemo. That includes all applications, 
but does not have a specialized interface and really is no more than a proof 
of concept.
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Attila Csipa
On Monday 15 February 2010 17:55:16 Christopher Intemann wrote:
 I guess that rpm is just more advanced than deb. Finally, most third party
 software applicable to date is either binary or rpm, but not deb. It is
 probably easier to convince developers to port their linux tools to MeeGo
 if they're already familiar with the package management.

Which third party software are you referring to ? Not trying to get into the 
packaging format fight, just being curious...


Regards,
Attila

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Re: MeeGo-Mailinglist Merge (MMM)

2010-02-15 Thread Andre Klapper
Am Montag, den 15.02.2010, 18:25 +0100 schrieb Max:
 both mailinglists will be disabled, and merged into the megoo mailinglist
 
 Right? :-P

No? :-P

 When? !

*If* it happens: When it's time to do so.

Maemo and Moblin both coexist right now and there is no need to pollute
each project with questions specific to the other platform respectively.

andre
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Christopher Intemann
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 6:38 PM, Attila Csipa ma...@csipa.in.rs wrote:

 On Monday 15 February 2010 17:55:16 Christopher Intemann wrote:
  I guess that rpm is just more advanced than deb. Finally, most third
 party
  software applicable to date is either binary or rpm, but not deb. It is
  probably easier to convince developers to port their linux tools to MeeGo
  if they're already familiar with the package management.


 Which third party software are you referring to ? Not trying to get into
 the packaging format fight, just being curious...



Linux binaries, like... flash, silverlight (mono package), several google
apps like chrome, google desktop/gadgets/earth/picasa...
I'm currently installing all my stuff via the repositories, but after having
used as well Debian, SuSE and Fedora for several years, I have the
impression that, if there is a binary package available for download, it
would be an RPM. I've barely seen Debs for download.
By the way. Is Moblin using yum, yast, or anything homebrew?
Cheers,
 Chris
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Thomas Tanner
On 15.02.10 17:55, Christopher Intemann wrote:
 Since MeeGo is about to become the successor of Maemo, I guess there
 won't be any need to backport anything.

such an attitude would make lots of N900 and N8x0 owners angry...

 I guess that rpm is just more advanced than deb.

this is wrong, but not relevant here. The package format itself is
negligible. The important point is the infrastructure it implies.
According to http://www.desktoplinux.com/news/NS2068665492.html
Moblin switched from Ubuntu to Fedora because RPM offers the advantage
of containing license information (I don't whether that's the only or
main reason). But .debs have the license information in their doc
directory (most of them are DFSG free anyway) and it could be added
as X-License field of the package description, if necessary.

I don't want a platform that is merely a Qt runtime enviroment (Symbian
would be sufficient) but one which also offers me easy access to the
complete GNU/Linux software world.
Debian based distributions have offered working ARM ports for years
but Fedora does not. Porting Moblin/Fedora to ARM would be lots
of duplicated effort, using Maemo/Debian on X86 or ARM is for free.

On 15.02.10 17:57, Dieter Plaetinck wrote:
 PS: I have no idea of moblin's size, so maybe you make a good point.  I
 don't know.

I could only find those standard GNOME applications
http://garage.moblin.org/garage/all?page=1

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MeeGo, unity or fragmentation?

2010-02-15 Thread Ville Reijonen


Just analyzing the news..

Many devices - Tablets, cars, phones, televisions:
* Different screen sizes require different UI designs, and often more.
* On small mobile devices energy consumption is more acute problem than 
on tablet, tv or car. Software originating from other device family 
might suck phone battery dry..
* The devices won't have the same input devices, there might be devices 
without any touch screen or hardware keys.
* Software for one device can not be guaranteed to be ok on another 
device. What will the QA be like, can there even be a single QA? It 
it hard to develop for a device which one does not have. Additionally, 
who even cares about some devices they do not have?

* GTK and QT need to learn to live together even better than before.
* Single software stack will help to convince developers seeking a market.
* Ovi Store and Intel AppUp Center, already two separate places for 
software, what if one more store comes out? How about Repositories?

* Will I be able to move my DRM'd programs and files from Nokia MeeBoo to Intel 
MeeToo?
* MeeGo GTK will not not compute on S60.

= code once, use every does not apply? Will it be necessary to port 
software from MeeGo to MeeGo to get it work on different devices? How 
these internal boundaries will be defined and made secure?


Two corporations make better cake than one?
* Does moblin really have community or just paid drones? Moblin-dev, 
the only mailing list they have had 3 mails today, yesterday 1, last 
friday 1. Didn't bother to check the irc channel.
* It might be more natural for maemo to swallow moblin, but it seems 
that as there is two corporation in helm, a third instance has to be created. 
(MeeGo even has a dictator duo, that is one benovolent dictator per company)

* How much there will be design by commitee?
* MeeGo, is it distribution or a platform? Add a lot of old software 
components and few new software components.. rpm faq entry on packaging 
sound more like a distribution than platform.

* Where is the nice and soft .org? Corporations say, community follows?


p.s. Meego is a short-lived American science fiction sitcom... 1997... 
was canceled half way through its first season.


--
VRe
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RPM vs. Deb (was Re: MeeGo)

2010-02-15 Thread Michael Cronenworth

Thomas Tanner wrote:

I don't want a platform that is merely a Qt runtime enviroment (Symbian
would be sufficient) but one which also offers me easy access to the
complete GNU/Linux software world.
Debian based distributions have offered working ARM ports for years
but Fedora does not. Porting Moblin/Fedora to ARM would be lots
of duplicated effort, using Maemo/Debian on X86 or ARM is for free.


Thomas, you're getting all upset over nothing. The fact that RPM will 
now be used is nothing more than politics. No features will be lost. No 
amount of whining to this list will change what is already in motion.



*cough* http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/ARM *cough*

I don't see any value in this continued discussion of RPM vs. Deb.
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Johan Helsingius
Max,

 Nokia N900 is still not available here in the phone povider houses.

And why does that matter? What's wrong with getting it from
the Nokia online store? Why do you feel the need to support
the old world phone channels?

 Open Source they know, but not marketing, they do not know.

I would argue the opposite :)

 Remember my words:  Google needs Phones, and Nokia provides them,
 So Nokia is a fish to eat!

You are of course entitled to your opinion.

 Users in the market wait for the N900.

If they want one, that can of course go an buy one.

 Any solution to send them one with phonehouse contract?

Phonehouse contract?

Julf
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Re: RPM vs. Deb (was Re: MeeGo)

2010-02-15 Thread Thomas Tanner
I have repeatedly stated this is not about the package format!
It is about the infrastructure and the available software.
I have no problem with commercial apps being installed as rpms (using
alien).
Why should we drop the efforts of the Maemo and Debian community on ARM
devices? Where is the Moblin community anway?
compare
http://arm.koji.fedoraproject.org/packages_to_be_fixed.html
with http://www.ubuntu.com/products/whatisubuntu/arm

On 15.02.10 19:07, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
 Thomas, you're getting all upset over nothing. The fact that RPM will
 now be used is nothing more than politics. No features will be lost. No
 amount of whining to this list will change what is already in motion.
 
 *cough* http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/ARM *cough*
 
 I don't see any value in this continued discussion of RPM vs. Deb.

-- 
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GnuPG: 1024/5924D4DD
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Max
Nokia was the leader with the communicator phone, everyone wanted
since the smartphone age, nokia knows, selling hardware has gone and
acquired Qt.
the N 900 is a relaunch of the communicator. but no phone house gets it.
In the meantime we have
- Motorola Milstone and
- sony ericson x-peria 10
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/MWC-Was-Kleines-von-Sony-Ericsson-930178.html?view=zoom;zoom=1
Nokia knows, that the linux app store is sooo small and buggy, not
comparable with Iphone,
Furthermore maemo5 is not allowing to install Qt, the overslept to
bring mamemo 06 on the nokai N 900.
Then Symbian was made open source, so no meamo is needed anymore.
The rest is to merge maemo and pull off the ground for the N900, as
app developers can make apps open for symbian.
The result is a delay again and again no selling of phones, esp., the N900
The mass market buys phone in a phonehouse, not because linux is on
it. that would be a side effect to bring linux to the masses.
We need good selling phones, then this list makes sense.
Which consumer wil buy a N900 , while Qt is not installed on maemo 5,
they wait for a upgrade to mamemo 06 and now they wait 2 years for
N900 with meego.
That is the left hand pulling of the ground for the right hand. Either
nokia is a hadware manufacturer or a software geek, merging nerd
groups. Here the software developers stopped the selling succes of the
Nokia N900.
No customer will buy a N 900 with outdated mameo 05 or outdated maemo
06, and a N900 with mee Go is a pure vaporware.
Look at apple, they know product cylcus with Ipad: first without wifi
and with added 64 MB, then a G3 one, and then a size bigger and
brighter..

Nokia N900 is exactly the opposite. Each step shows : Dont buy a N900
it is not ready, we just made the website frames to fill something in.
And really, what do you suggest from intel? They are strong in
automotive, but not in the phone world. Moblin is good, but linux
phone kernel closed source? so which geeks do you want to enthusiast?
Google will buy Nokia and will show us, how a product cyclus of a
chrome-phone is scheduled..

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 7:15 PM, Johan Helsingius j...@julf.com wrote:
 Max,

 Nokia N900 is still not available here in the phone povider houses.

 And why does that matter? What's wrong with getting it from
 the Nokia online store? Why do you feel the need to support
 the old world phone channels?

 Users in the market wait for the N900.

 If they want one, that can of course go an buy one.

 Any solution to send them one with phonehouse contract?

 Phonehouse contract?

        Julf

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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Andre Klapper
Am Montag, den 15.02.2010, 19:15 +0100 schrieb Johan Helsingius:
 And why does that matter?

Don't feed the trolls, just ignore them, I'd propose here... :-)

andre
-- 
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RE: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread kate.alhola


From: maemo-developers-boun...@maemo.org [maemo-developers-boun...@maemo.org] 
On Behalf Of ext Max [petersonm...@googlemail.com]
Sent: Monday, February 15, 2010 8:30 PM
To: Johan Helsingius
Cc: maemo-developers@maemo.org
Subject: Re: MeeGo

Nokia was the leader with the communicator phone, everyone wanted
since the smartphone age, nokia knows, selling hardware has gone and
acquired Qt.
the N 900 is a relaunch of the communicator. but no phone house gets it.
In the meantime we have
- Motorola Milstone and
- sony ericson x-peria 10
http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/MWC-Was-Kleines-von-Sony-Ericsson-930178.html?view=zoom;zoom=1
Nokia knows, that the linux app store is sooo small and buggy, not
comparable with Iphone,

OVI Store for Maemo has just opened, it will grow. Think how big was Apple
appstore half of year after iPhone was published ? I think that it was
not existing at all. 

Furthermore maemo5 is not allowing to install Qt, the overslept to
bring mamemo 06 on the nokai N 900.

There has been Qt for Maemo 5 lot before even N900 was released. 
Qt for Maemo5 was releaste together with SDK beta about one year ago.

Qt has been instalable from repositories and now in MWC, we also annouced
that final Qt4.6 port for Maemo 5 is there
http://qt.nokia.com/products/qt-news-from-mwc


Then Symbian was made open source, so no meamo is needed anymore.

Maemo is Open Source but it is also targeted to diferent device category than 
Symbian.

The rest is to merge maemo and pull off the ground for the N900, as
app developers can make apps open for symbian.
The result is a delay again and again no selling of phones, esp., the N900
The mass market buys phone in a phonehouse, not because linux is on
it. that would be a side effect to bring linux to the masses.

It depends a lot of market area how end users buy their device.
In some markets, like in North America most ones buy subsidized 
phone from Operators. In many others markets, they buy device
from shop and then SIM from operator.

We need good selling phones, then this list makes sense.
Which consumer wil buy a N900 , while Qt is not installed on maemo 5,
they wait for a upgrade to mamemo 06 and now they wait 2 years for
N900 with meego.

End user does not even know what is Qt or GTK. When end user installs 
applications, they does not even know is it Qt or GTK application.
many of OVI store applivations for Maemo 5 are already Qt apps.

Kate
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Re: RPM vs. Deb (was Re: MeeGo)

2010-02-15 Thread Jean-Christian de Rivaz

Michael Cronenworth a écrit :

Thomas Tanner wrote:

I don't want a platform that is merely a Qt runtime enviroment (Symbian
would be sufficient) but one which also offers me easy access to the
complete GNU/Linux software world.
Debian based distributions have offered working ARM ports for years
but Fedora does not. Porting Moblin/Fedora to ARM would be lots
of duplicated effort, using Maemo/Debian on X86 or ARM is for free.


Thomas, you're getting all upset over nothing. The fact that RPM will 
now be used is nothing more than politics. No features will be lost. No 
amount of whining to this list will change what is already in motion.



*cough* http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/ARM *cough*

I don't see any value in this continued discussion of RPM vs. Deb.


Because you don't see any value into the hug advance Debian have in both 
infrastructure and quality to manage multiple architectures. There is no 
comparable effort in others distributions like Debian have proved to 
develop a multiarch distribution. Multiarch will probably start to be 
usable sometime after the next Debian release and this will greatly 
impact the way embedded systems will be build.


Using obscure politic decision vs recognize the technical merit and 
effort should be added on top of the How to destroy a community list.


Regards,

Jean-Christian de Rivaz
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Johan Helsingius
Andre,

 Don't feed the trolls, just ignore them, I'd propose here... :-)

I think you are right... :)

Julf
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Christopher Intemann
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 7:30 PM, Max petersonm...@googlemail.com wrote:

 the N 900 is a relaunch of the communicator. but no phone house gets it.


By the way: What is phonehouse? Were'nt they a provider which did eventually
merge into Mobilcom or sth.? In which country do they still exist? I haven't
seen a store for ages. And, finally: Does it matter at all?
Just saw the N900 at several stores, including Saturn, so I would claim it
applicable.
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Re: confusion about koffice viewer

2010-02-15 Thread Christopher Intemann
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 8:59 AM, Boudewijn Rempt b...@valdyas.org wrote:

 On Sunday 14 February 2010, Christopher Intemann wrote:


  I'm really confused now. Can the koffice viewer only display documents,
 or
  is editing and creation of new documents possible eventually?

 The viewer can only view presentation and word processor documents, with
 spreadsheets coming and has a specialized interface for Maemo. I use it
 read
 documnets on the go, and it works for my needs. There also exists a
 complete
 port of an older beta of KOffice2 to Maemo. That includes all applications,
 but does not have a specialized interface and really is no more than a
 proof
 of concept.


Ah, ok, great. Thanks for clarification!
Chris
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Attila Csipa
On Monday 15 February 2010 18:44:26 Christopher Intemann wrote:
   software applicable to date is either binary or rpm, but not deb. It is
   probably easier to convince developers to port their linux tools to
   MeeGo if they're already familiar with the package management.
 
  Which third party software are you referring to ? Not trying to get into
  the packaging format fight, just being curious...

 Linux binaries, like... flash, silverlight (mono package), several google
 apps like chrome, google desktop/gadgets/earth/picasa...
 I'm currently installing all my stuff via the repositories, but after
 having used as well Debian, SuSE and Fedora for several years, I have the
 impression that, if there is a binary package available for download, it
 would be an RPM. I've barely seen Debs for download.

For the record, Adobe's Flash, Google's Chrome and Picasa officially offer 
DEBs. 
Moonlight is distributed as a firefox plugin, so it does not really relate to 
this question. Google Earth provides only a binary blob install (good luck 
getting rid of it or fighting through it's dependency/64bit hell). 

So, again, which software are we talking about that has issues with packaging 
formats (either way) ? People seem to be missing the point - it's not whether 
DEBs or RPMs are better - the question here was why change your existing 
package architecture (whichever it is), i.e. what's the big thing we're (as in 
developer community, Maemo, or MeeGo or whatever) winning by this change ? 
Moblin was citing better developer and community acceptance as the reasons for 
the switch (I don't buy the license talk for a second), but that is 
theoretically exactly what Maemo brings to the table. That's why I'm puzzled 
why this choice went the Moblin side in the end.

Regards,
Attila



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MeeGarage ?

2010-02-15 Thread Attila Csipa
The meego.com site is announcing being in the process of merging moblin and 
maemo garages. As someone who has a few projects on garage.maemo.org, it would 
be nice to have a few general remarks from the Maemo side of this merger as to 
what the future holds, should we mentally prepare to pack our bags, VCS', etc.


Regards,
Attila
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Re: MeeGo, unity or fragmentation?

2010-02-15 Thread Christopher Intemann
I would rather see the benefits from the merge.
The different package format does not really matter, since developer tools
allow to create packages automatically and it won't need much efforts for
developers to provide both a deb and a rpm release.
Having a OS which is not bound to a single device such as the N900 but
available on several platforms is a great benefit for both endusers -
imaging having both a netbook and a phone running virtually the same OS,
allowing to use the same applications (and even packages) on both devices -
and developers, which can then provide applications for a far bigger
community.
Since Maemo is already more mature than Moblin (IMHO) and does already
provide a telephony interface, I guess the first MeeGo release will be
widely based on Maemo but use rpm as packaging format.
I don't see a cross platform/hardware (ARM vs. Intel) issue as well, since
the package format is absolutely independent from the platform (and I
personal have had no issues with using SuSE on Sparc a while ago, which was
rpm based).
Finally, Moblin utilizes yum, which is very similar to apt-get / apt-cache,
and IMHO far better than SuSE Yast, as it is more handy and easier to use
from the prompt. It's probably very likely that MeeGo will come with yum as
well, great news for Fedora users!
Regards,
 Chris

On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Ville Reijonen vi...@cs.tut.fi wrote:


 Just analyzing the news..

 Many devices - Tablets, cars, phones, televisions:
 * Different screen sizes require different UI designs, and often more.
 * On small mobile devices energy consumption is more acute problem than on
 tablet, tv or car. Software originating from other device family might suck
 phone battery dry..
 * The devices won't have the same input devices, there might be devices
 without any touch screen or hardware keys.
 * Software for one device can not be guaranteed to be ok on another device.
 What will the QA be like, can there even be a single QA? It it hard to
 develop for a device which one does not have. Additionally, who even cares
 about some devices they do not have?
 * GTK and QT need to learn to live together even better than before.
 * Single software stack will help to convince developers seeking a market.
 * Ovi Store and Intel AppUp Center, already two separate places for
 software, what if one more store comes out? How about Repositories?
 * Will I be able to move my DRM'd programs and files from Nokia MeeBoo to
 Intel MeeToo?
 * MeeGo GTK will not not compute on S60.

 = code once, use every does not apply? Will it be necessary to port
 software from MeeGo to MeeGo to get it work on different devices? How these
 internal boundaries will be defined and made secure?

 Two corporations make better cake than one?
 * Does moblin really have community or just paid drones? Moblin-dev, the
 only mailing list they have had 3 mails today, yesterday 1, last friday 1.
 Didn't bother to check the irc channel.
 * It might be more natural for maemo to swallow moblin, but it seems that
 as there is two corporation in helm, a third instance has to be created.
 (MeeGo even has a dictator duo, that is one benovolent dictator per
 company)
 * How much there will be design by commitee?
 * MeeGo, is it distribution or a platform? Add a lot of old software
 components and few new software components.. rpm faq entry on packaging
 sound more like a distribution than platform.
 * Where is the nice and soft .org? Corporations say, community follows?


 p.s. Meego is a short-lived American science fiction sitcom... 1997... was
 canceled half way through its first season.

 --
 VRe
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Thomas Waelti
These two statements together make it clear for me as a hobby developer on this 
platform that there is nothing to worry about, topic closed :-)
OTOH, I've clearly seen the limits of the App Manager (speed/performance) from 
a user perspective and hope that the switch to .rpm could improve that.

Even if I have to repack my measly apps (after finally having mastered 
debbing after years...), I'm glad to see Maemo getting a strong partner.

Happy hacking
-Tom



 Tor wrote:
 This is very bad news IMO. I work a lot with both formats and I know
 which one is less painful.

 Completely subjective. I work with both, and I can tell you the opposite.

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Re: MeeGo, unity or fragmentation?

2010-02-15 Thread Christopher Intemann
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 9:49 PM, Pavel Rojtberg li...@rojtberg.net wrote:

  Am 15.02.2010 21:32, schrieb Christopher Intemann:

  Since Maemo is already more mature than Moblin (IMHO) and does already
 provide a telephony interface, I guess the first MeeGo release will be
 widely based on Maemo but use rpm as packaging format.

 this is kind of a cotradiction - if Maemo is more mature, why should one
 change the package management of the less mature solution?

 In general I think the package format needs more discussion as it also
 implies a rebase of the distribution. Up to now Maemo was happily syncing
 from Debian, which obviously wont work with rpm any more.

 So there must be at least a HUGE advantage coming with RPM to justify the
 efford to switch.


Well, I'm using Fedora on my desktop, so rpm is just fine for me...
There seems to be an Fedora/ARM port available:
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/ARM
However, since I'm not very familiar with that architecture, I can't say
anything about the status compared to Debian/ARM. I have, however, always
had the impression, that Fedora/RedHat/SuSE (the rpm-based distros) were
rather targeting business users, while Debian was ment for personal users or
kernel hackers in the first line. And, I wasn't very amused when I had to
compile several security updates and do the patches on some Debian boxes by
myself when those Debian maintainers were having arguments and were not
updating the repositories some time ago. However, I'm aware that the Debian
community is probably the biggest contributor to Linux. You're right, even
if it does not bother me very much, Maemo merging into MeeGo implies a
change from Debian to Fedora, if you want to say it that way. This will
probably a big loss for the Debian/ARM project. By the way: Which, if at
all, package management does Android use?
Regards,
 Chris
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Christopher Intemann
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 8:59 PM, Attila Csipa ma...@csipa.in.rs wrote:


 For the record, Adobe's Flash, Google's Chrome and Picasa officially offer
 DEBs. Moonlight is distributed as a firefox plugin, so it does not really
 relate to this question. Google Earth provides only a binary blob install
 (good luck getting rid of it or fighting through it's dependency/64bit
 hell).


 So, again, which software are we talking about that has issues with
 packaging formats (either way) ? People seem to be missing the point - it's
 not whether DEBs or RPMs are better - the question here was why change your
 existing package architecture (whichever it is), i.e. what's the big thing
 we're (as in developer community, Maemo, or MeeGo or whatever) winning by
 this change ? Moblin was citing better developer and community acceptance as
 the reasons for the switch (I don't buy the license talk for a second), but
 that is theoretically exactly what Maemo brings to the table. That's why I'm
 puzzled why this choice went the Moblin side in the end.



Is that so?
I have not been using Debian for three or four years, but those times I
found it always annoying that I could only find rpm's but not deb's of
unfree/third-party software. However, since Ubuntu became a mayor linux
distro in the recent years, it's very well conceivable that companies are
now offering deb's as well.
Sorry for any confusion if I was wrong.
Regards,
 Chris
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Marc Bantle
Hi all,

Henry Bilby - HMMB schrieb:
 MeeGO will support opengl?


From what I understand from [1], the
the thing I'll miss most will be X11.

I hope someone can disprove :-(


Cheers,
Marc


[1]
http://qt.nokia.com/products/platform/qt-for-embedded-linux#compact-efficient-windowing-system



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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Robin Burchell
On Mon, Feb 15, 2010 at 11:13 PM, Marc Bantle mar...@ntle.de wrote:
 From what I understand from [1], the
 the thing I'll miss most will be X11.

 [1]
 http://qt.nokia.com/products/platform/qt-for-embedded-linux#compact-efficient-windowing-system

You misunderstand, or rather, you jump to conclusions.

QWS is (or was?) part of Qtopia[1] which is no longer included with Qt as such.

It still lives on over at http://qtopia.net/ - but it isn't used in
either Moblin or Maemo, nor is it at all intended for Meego as far as
I know. It is still perfectly usable on top of a Linux stack, though,
yes.

[1]: http://doc.trolltech.com/4.3/qtopiacore.html



 Cheers,
 Marc

BR,

Robin Burchell
mob: +447702671419
msn: m...@viroteck.net
irc: w00t @ irc.freenode.net
twr: http://twitter.com/w00teh
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Sarah Newman



Marc Bantle wrote:

 From what I understand from [1], the
the thing I'll miss most will be X11.

I hope someone can disprove :-(


Given GTK and clutter are supposed to still be available, won't there be X?
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Thomas Tanner
On 16.02.10 00:13, Marc Bantle wrote:
 From what I understand from [1], the
 the thing I'll miss most will be X11.
 
 I hope someone can disprove :-(

http://meego.com/developers/hardware-enabling-process
lopers


-- 
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email: tan...@gmx.de
GnuPG: 1024/5924D4DD
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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Marc Bantle
Hi,

Thomas Tanner schrieb:
 On 16.02.10 00:13, Marc Bantle wrote:
   
 From what I understand from [1], the
 the thing I'll miss most will be X11.

 I hope someone can disprove :-(
 
 http://meego.com/developers/hardware-enabling-process
   
Reads encouraging :-) I'll stay tuned.

Marc





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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Yves-Alexis Perez
On 15/02/2010 17:29, Luca De Cicco wrote:
 I would stay away of packaging holy wars (packaging is boooring) :).
 It is true that packaging has some technical implications, however
 I would focus more on the scenario we are going to experience.

But packaging is a whole part of a good user experience. Bad packaging
means *bad* user experience, trust me.

Cheers,
-- 
Yves-Alexis



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Re: MeeGo, unity or fragmentation?

2010-02-15 Thread Yves-Alexis Perez
On 15/02/2010 22:26, Christopher Intemann wrote:

 Well, I'm using Fedora on my desktop, so rpm is just fine for me...
 There seems to be an Fedora/ARM port available:
 http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Architectures/ARM
 However, since I'm not very familiar with that architecture, I can't say
 anything about the status compared to Debian/ARM.

That's not really the point. Maemo 5 uses (outdated) sources from Debian
Etch, but they are rebuilt anyway (debian armel is built for armv4t to
retain compatibility, dropping speed improvements from armv7)

 I have, however,
 always had the impression, that Fedora/RedHat/SuSE (the rpm-based
 distros) were rather targeting business users, while Debian was ment for
 personal users or kernel hackers in the first line.

Imho that's just an impression, because Suse/Redhat are commercial
players and you use RHEL/SLES with support.

 And, I wasn't very
 amused when I had to compile several security updates and do the patches
 on some Debian boxes by myself when those Debian maintainers were having
 arguments and were not updating the repositories some time ago.

What exactly are you talking about? (though it's not the correct place
to troll distro, we were talking packaging format). In other news, I'm
still not sure how those “security updates” are handled in maemo (they
seem not be). Don't know at all for Moblin.

 However,
 I'm aware that the Debian community is probably the biggest contributor
 to Linux. You're right, even if it does not bother me very much, Maemo
 merging into MeeGo implies a change from Debian to Fedora, if you want
 to say it that way. This will probably a big loss for the Debian/ARM
 project.

Like I said above, Maemo doesn't use directly Debian armel. They do use
Debian package but with huge modifications and rebuilt.

 By the way: Which, if at all, package management does Android use?

Jar stuff, I guess.

Cheers,
-- 
Yves-Alexis



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Re: MeeGo, unity or fragmentation?

2010-02-15 Thread Marcin Juszkiewicz
On pon 15 lut 2010 21:49:14 CET, Pavel Rojtberg li...@rojtberg.net wrote:

  I guess the first MeeGo release will be
  widely based on Maemo but use rpm as packaging format.

Maemo maybe is longer on a market but will rather not be a base - will rather 
provide applications and phone stuff.

 In general I think the package format needs more discussion as it also
 implies a rebase of the distribution. 

There is no space for discussion - we are community not company. Moblin already 
has OBS working for building software and they decided about using Fedora as 
base over 18 months ago (used Ubuntu before).

 Up to now Maemo was happily
 syncing from Debian, which obviously wont work with rpm any more.

Please... Maemo was not syncing with Debian. It just took few updated 
components from it.

 So there must be at least a HUGE advantage coming with RPM to justify
 the efford to switch.

Less work for nokia on base system as Moblin provides nice working, maintained 
one instead of bunch of random versions used in Maemo5.


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Re: MeeGo, unity or fragmentation?

2010-02-15 Thread Christopher Intemann
Marcin,
that sounds reasonable!
Chris

2010/2/16, Marcin Juszkiewicz mar...@juszkiewicz.com.pl:
 On pon 15 lut 2010 21:49:14 CET, Pavel Rojtberg li...@rojtberg.net wrote:

  I guess the first MeeGo release will be
  widely based on Maemo but use rpm as packaging format.

 Maemo maybe is longer on a market but will rather not be a base - will
 rather provide applications and phone stuff.

 In general I think the package format needs more discussion as it also
 implies a rebase of the distribution.

 There is no space for discussion - we are community not company. Moblin
 already has OBS working for building software and they decided about using
 Fedora as base over 18 months ago (used Ubuntu before).

 Up to now Maemo was happily
 syncing from Debian, which obviously wont work with rpm any more.

 Please... Maemo was not syncing with Debian. It just took few updated
 components from it.

 So there must be at least a HUGE advantage coming with RPM to justify
 the efford to switch.

 Less work for nokia on base system as Moblin provides nice working,
 maintained one instead of bunch of random versions used in Maemo5.


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Re: MeeGo

2010-02-15 Thread Martin Grimme
Hi,

 But packaging is a whole part of a good user experience. Bad packaging
 means *bad* user experience, trust me.

I think this is the real problem about rpm here. Technically, I think
rpm is superior to deb but Debian's apt is still unmatched as a
package manager and the packagers do a better job (maybe because deb
is easier to create?). I haven't used yum for years, so it might be
better today, but back then (2004/2005), badly packaged stuff with bad
dependencies and the utter slowness of yum drove me away from Redhat.

I was involved in a project creating a Linux LiveCD builder based on
Fedora for customer-customisable CDs. The user selects the
applications she wants on the CD and the CD builder automatically
resolves the package dependencies to build the CD. While in theory
this idea was great and should easily be doable, we faced a lot of
dependency-resolving problems with the original Fedora packages.
Eeventually, we gave up on using yum for dependency-resolving and
tried to implement our own algorithms (or should I say heuristics?)
for resolving dependencies.
rpm is very complex and allows for a lot of things that deb simply
doesn't have. This makes it very hard to handle correctly.

I have also ported Redhat's Anaconda installer to work with gentoo's
emerge system for VidaLinux OS a few years ago. It's really hard stuff
as rpm is so complex and badly documented. There are magic numbers and
flags everywhere and this stuff is used. Redhat has a tradition of
making simple things very complex (I would call it obfuscated open
source, open source yes, but you rather don't dare touch it). Working
with Redhat's code is a tedious task.

OTOH, any maybe MeeGo will positively surprise me, rpm can be as
simple and reliable as deb.

Just my 2¢


Martin
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