Re: Best format for SD ?
On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 20:27 +0300, ext Marius Vollmer wrote: ext Klaus Rotter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Charles Werbick wrote: [...] ARM simply cannot compete with a Pentium III CPU at 1.5 GHz and 12 watts total dissipation. I predict that the n900 series, should it reach production, will run Intel and not TI silicon. The N8xxs have a 1,5Ah x 3,7V = 5,5 Wh accu. A 12 W design will run out of power in less than half an hour. Charles is missing a dot: The chips have a thermal design power (TDP) specification in 0.6-2.5 watt range and scale to 1.8GHz [...] http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20080302comp.htm Anyway that's still insanely high: 0.6-2.5 watt is for a pocket stove, not an handheld device. According to Wikipedia it can idle in the 0.01 W to 0.1 W range. But this is still just for the processor core, chipset peripherals not included... Are there similar estimations for power consumption of OMAP35x processors produced in 45nm? cheers Philipp ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Best format for SD ?
On Wed, 2008-04-02 at 18:47 +0200, ext pHilipp Zabel wrote: On Wed, Apr 2, 2008 at 8:45 AM, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 2008-04-01 at 20:27 +0300, ext Marius Vollmer wrote: ext Klaus Rotter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Charles Werbick wrote: [...] ARM simply cannot compete with a Pentium III CPU at 1.5 GHz and 12 watts total dissipation. I predict that the n900 series, should it reach production, will run Intel and not TI silicon. The N8xxs have a 1,5Ah x 3,7V = 5,5 Wh accu. A 12 W design will run out of power in less than half an hour. Charles is missing a dot: The chips have a thermal design power (TDP) specification in 0.6-2.5 watt range and scale to 1.8GHz [...] http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20080302comp.htm Anyway that's still insanely high: 0.6-2.5 watt is for a pocket stove, not an handheld device. According to Wikipedia it can idle in the 0.01 W to 0.1 W range. But this is still just for the processor core, chipset peripherals not included... Are there similar estimations for power consumption of OMAP35x processors produced in 45nm? Sure, but i don't know how many are those that are also public. You should check the TI website. -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Next Generation Software Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Best format for SD ?
Charles Werbick wrote: series far before the flash wears out. The Intel Atom processors are due out this spring and will kill ARM on tablets period. ARM simply cannot compete with a Pentium III CPU at 1.5 GHz and 12 watts total dissipation. I predict that the n900 series, should it reach production, will run Intel and not TI silicon. The N8xxs have a 1,5Ah x 3,7V = 5,5 Wh accu. A 12 W design will run out of power in less than half an hour. You really don't know what you are talking about! You can't compare the ARM and the Intel Atom cpu's, because they are meant for totally different products. -- Klaus Rotter * klaus at rotters dot de * www.rotters.de ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Best format for SD ?
ext Klaus Rotter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Charles Werbick wrote: [...] ARM simply cannot compete with a Pentium III CPU at 1.5 GHz and 12 watts total dissipation. I predict that the n900 series, should it reach production, will run Intel and not TI silicon. The N8xxs have a 1,5Ah x 3,7V = 5,5 Wh accu. A 12 W design will run out of power in less than half an hour. Charles is missing a dot: The chips have a thermal design power (TDP) specification in 0.6-2.5 watt range and scale to 1.8GHz [...] http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20080302comp.htm ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Best format for SD ?
Charles is missing a dot: The chips have a thermal design power (TDP) specification in 0.6-2.5 watt range and scale to 1.8GHz [...] http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20080302comp.htm Sorry rented fingers... I am missing a dot. (Probably more than 1 but the rest were missing from my dice ;-) Cheers, Charles Werbick ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Best format for SD ?
By default, SD cards come preformatted as VFAT, as does the internal SD on the N810. If you want to mount them on Windows, they have to stay that way. But you can also reformat them with a Linux file system, or create multiple partitions. One problem with leaving the card as VFAT is that you cannot create symlinks from the root filesystem. Also VFAT does not support attributes such as ownership or execute bits. The default mount is /dev/mmcblk0p1 /media/mmc1 vfat rw,noauto,nodev,noexec,nosuid,utf8,uid=2 0 0 i.e. belonging to user and you can't execute programs. The kernel on the N810 (OS2008) supports ext2 and ext3 file systems. I just reformatted both my internal and removable SDs as ext3 (also created a swap partition on /dev/mmcblk1p2) and it seems to work as far as I can see. What is the best available F/S for flash ? And what options ? I have set noatime as Nokia has on / (don't write the access time) I saw an interesting webcast by Mentor Graphics where they were talking about designing a new filesystem especially for flash, which would be 100% fault tolerant to loss of power and would minimize write cycles etc. They mentioned problems with FAT as not being fault tolerant and not supporting large files. Also that flash may have a limited number of write cycles per bit (around a hundred). (so maybe I should use ext2 not ext3 to minimize journal writes, or put the journal on / (whataver technology that is... it's mounted jffs2.) -- Andrew Daviel, TRIUMF, Canada Tel. +1 (604) 222-7376 (Pacific Time) Network Security Manager ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Best format for SD ?
Andrew Daviel wrote: By default, SD cards come preformatted as VFAT, as does the internal SD on the N810. If you want to mount them on Windows, they have to stay that way. But you can also reformat them with a Linux file system, or create multiple partitions. One problem with leaving the card as VFAT is that you cannot create symlinks from the root filesystem. Also VFAT does not support attributes such as ownership or execute bits. The default mount is /dev/mmcblk0p1 /media/mmc1 vfat rw,noauto,nodev,noexec,nosuid,utf8,uid=2 0 0 i.e. belonging to user and you can't execute programs. The kernel on the N810 (OS2008) supports ext2 and ext3 file systems. I just reformatted both my internal and removable SDs as ext3 (also created a swap partition on /dev/mmcblk1p2) and it seems to work as far as I can see. What is the best available F/S for flash ? And what options ? I have set noatime as Nokia has on / (don't write the access time) I saw an interesting webcast by Mentor Graphics where they were talking about designing a new filesystem especially for flash, which would be 100% fault tolerant to loss of power and would minimize write cycles etc. They mentioned problems with FAT as not being fault tolerant and not supporting large files. Also that flash may have a limited number of write cycles per bit (around a hundred). (so maybe I should use ext2 not ext3 to minimize journal writes, or put the journal on / (whataver technology that is... it's mounted jffs2.) With regard to limited write cycles, SD cards automatically and internally do wear leveling (that is, writing to place 0 on the drive might never be the same place) to counter that effect, so that's why FAT works without burning out cards writing the FAT every time you change something. When you have a memory technology device - aka, just a flash chip directly attached some how, not through SD (think the internal 256), then a file system like JFFS (which the Nokia devices use) does compression and wear levelling at the FS level. RYan -- Ryan Pavlik www.cleardefinition.com #282 + (442) - [X] A programmer started to cuss Because getting to sleep was a fuss As he lay there in bed Looping 'round in his head was: while(!asleep()) sheep++; ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Best format for SD ?
On Sun, 30 Mar 2008, Ryan Pavlik wrote: What is the best available F/S for flash ? And what options ? I saw an interesting webcast by Mentor Graphics where they were talking about designing a new filesystem especially for flash, which would be With regard to limited write cycles, SD cards automatically and internally do wear leveling (that is, writing to place 0 on the drive might never be the same place) to counter that effect, so that's why FAT works without burning out cards writing the FAT every time you change something. When you have a memory technology device - aka, just a flash chip directly attached some how, not through SD (think the internal 256), then a file system like JFFS (which the Nokia devices use) does compression and wear levelling at the FS level. I was just looking at JFFS2. As you say, it's designed for direct access to flash rather than over SCSI emulation. When I re-read my notes on the Mentor talk (they are big in electronic circuit design, and would be providing hardware libraries for ASIC and (F)PGA design) they do mention JFFS and YAFFS and say that their Mentor Safe File System would be an improvement with 100% power fail safety and with various optimization for NOR (fast read) NAND (fast write) hybrids etc. I think NAND support was a relatively recent addition to JFFS2. I'm still interested in which of the various f/s (ext2/3, xfs, jfs, reiser ...) might be better on SD (mounted over USB via SCSI emulation) if I don't care about Windows compatability. Then there's the extended attributes (used by Apple's calendar server), not that I have immediate plans for that... -- Andrew Daviel, TRIUMF, Canada Tel. +1 (604) 222-7376 (Pacific Time) Network Security Manager ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Best format for SD ?
Hello All, I've been using ext2 on the principle that journalling increases the writes to the drive, in general. Internal wear levelling probably negates that paradigm as the memory is likely to outlive the device. A dozen years before failure? I'll have upgraded by then, unless we're in 'I Am Legend' land... Anyway, ext2 or ext3 both work well. I've been using, and booting to ext2 on the external MMC (with swap also on MMC) as I'm hacking a ton, so I don't want to fry anything non-replaceable. I figure, If I jack out the MMC I can still boot to flash and buy a new card. If you're worried about fault tolerance use ext3. The worst that'll happen is your flash will last 10 years instead of 12. Honestly, no matter what file system you use, the CPU speed and power consumption (plus increased flash capacities) will obsolete the n8xx series far before the flash wears out. The Intel Atom processors are due out this spring and will kill ARM on tablets period. ARM simply cannot compete with a Pentium III CPU at 1.5 GHz and 12 watts total dissipation. I predict that the n900 series, should it reach production, will run Intel and not TI silicon. (I realize that I'm setting myself up here should I be wrong. But Intel has increased the speed of their CPU while decreasing cost, power consumption and size. I don't see TI keeping up... Just my 2 cents.) Cheers, Charles Werbick On Sun, Mar 30, 2008 at 3:08 PM, Andrew Daviel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 30 Mar 2008, Ryan Pavlik wrote: What is the best available F/S for flash ? And what options ? I saw an interesting webcast by Mentor Graphics where they were talking about designing a new filesystem especially for flash, which would be With regard to limited write cycles, SD cards automatically and internally do wear leveling (that is, writing to place 0 on the drive might never be the same place) to counter that effect, so that's why FAT works without burning out cards writing the FAT every time you change something. When you have a memory technology device - aka, just a flash chip directly attached some how, not through SD (think the internal 256), then a file system like JFFS (which the Nokia devices use) does compression and wear levelling at the FS level. I was just looking at JFFS2. As you say, it's designed for direct access to flash rather than over SCSI emulation. When I re-read my notes on the Mentor talk (they are big in electronic circuit design, and would be providing hardware libraries for ASIC and (F)PGA design) they do mention JFFS and YAFFS and say that their Mentor Safe File System would be an improvement with 100% power fail safety and with various optimization for NOR (fast read) NAND (fast write) hybrids etc. I think NAND support was a relatively recent addition to JFFS2. I'm still interested in which of the various f/s (ext2/3, xfs, jfs, reiser ...) might be better on SD (mounted over USB via SCSI emulation) if I don't care about Windows compatability. Then there's the extended attributes (used by Apple's calendar server), not that I have immediate plans for that... -- Andrew Daviel, TRIUMF, Canada Tel. +1 (604) 222-7376 (Pacific Time) Network Security Manager ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
