Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
Hi, On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 05:35 -0700, ext Andy Mulhearn wrote: Apart from shutting off the sound thing thsi looks like a N770 cover on mode. Is that about right? Even if it's not, it's one I would like to have as well - as a put away for a while mode, I understand the need, but there are so many different (and rightful) opinions that rather than changing the standard interface, I'd like to have a cusomisation interface for system-level features plus let applications have their own local settings for certain standard dbus events. Then everyone can configure things to his heart content and we don't impose our opinion on anybody. -- Cheers, Igor Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nokia Multimedia - CP - OSSO / Helsinki, Finland) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 10:21 -0400, ext Brian Waite wrote: [snip] What I am asking for is a setup like my laptop where I have a complete power profile for the system. [snip] I see no technical problem in maemo providing the means to implement it. AFAIK there might be legal and IP related isses on us just shipping the feature, as Nokia has a patent on phone profiles and it seems that it's one of the family jewels :-/ It beats me why there isn't any issue with laptops doing basically the same thing. I leave it to someone more versed in legal/IP issues. -- Cheers, Igor Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nokia Multimedia - CP - OSSO / Helsinki, Finland) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
On Wednesday 11 July 2007, Igor Stoppa wrote: On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 16:26 +0300, ext David Weinehall wrote: On ons, 2007-07-11 at 15:16 +0200, ext Visti Andresen wrote: [snip] I could suggest using a double click on the power button First click opens the Device mode dialogue. Second click suspends the device. The idea is great, IMHO, but I doubt that Nokia's UI-team would agree; on a Nokia phone, pressing the power button when the device menu is open acts as cursor down. On our device it just ignores the press completely, which was an acceptable behaviour too. Adding a totally different behaviour would probably be regarded as too complicated for the user, or something =) We are doing open software, right? So let's provide a good mechanism that supports more advanced interactions and even if we have to officially ship with a lame set of choices for the average user, others can implement more advanced features. From the discussion so far, I'm getting the impression that what people are actually asking for is a way to create very customised extra profiles. Example: Create Night mode and associate it with the shortcut (double press on the power button): -disable chat/presence -leave only VOIP with a subset of users actually able to generate rings -kill all the led signalling - All these actions should be (are they already?) commands to be sent to the interested application/daemon through DBUS, so a simple script, paired with a command line dbus interface would be sufficient. So I have another request, Can we possibly have different profiles for battery/powered? I think it is really important to be able to say if I am plugged in do not go offline because I want to get my VOIP calls, but if I am on battery do something more miserly. Again, we have the profiles already, I would just like to be able to use different profies for different power conditions. Thanks Brian ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 08:48 -0400, ext Brian Waite wrote: [snip] So I have another request, Can we possibly have different profiles for battery/powered? I think it is really important to be able to say if I am plugged in do not go offline because I want to get my VOIP calls, but if I am on battery do something more miserly. Again, we have the profiles already, I would just like to be able to use different profies for different power conditions. We are shipting in the metaphisical field of centralised vs. distributed control. What you are asking for is certainly doable for a device meant to run few well known applications, like a phone. On a tablet it seems cleaner to just broadcast the plugged/unplugged event and let the apps deal with it by themselves. You are proposing something similar to screen timeout on a laptop, that can be set separately depending on presence of external power. -- Cheers, Igor Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nokia Multimedia - CP - OSSO / Helsinki, Finland) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
On Thursday 12 July 2007, Igor Stoppa wrote: On Thu, 2007-07-12 at 08:48 -0400, ext Brian Waite wrote: [snip] So I have another request, Can we possibly have different profiles for battery/powered? I think it is really important to be able to say if I am plugged in do not go offline because I want to get my VOIP calls, but if I am on battery do something more miserly. Again, we have the profiles already, I would just like to be able to use different profies for different power conditions. We are shipting in the metaphisical field of centralised vs. distributed control. What you are asking for is certainly doable for a device meant to run few well known applications, like a phone. On a tablet it seems cleaner to just broadcast the plugged/unplugged event and let the apps deal with it by themselves. You are proposing something similar to screen timeout on a laptop, that can be set separately depending on presence of external power. What I am asking for is a setup like my laptop where I have a complete power profile for the system. Let me give a few use cases Case 1: I carry my tablet in my pocket. (On battery) Basically I turn it on, look at something put it away. * Screen dim 15 sconds * Screen Off 30 seconds * Offline 30 minutes Case 2: I get to office, plug it in. I want to keep My Google chat and Voip active on the tablet. I use a personal calendar on the tablet I want to watch I retrieve my personal email to the tablet and want to monitor it. I use a BT keyboard to stay in touch via the tablet I stream internet radio thru it. * Screen dim 15 minutes * Screen off Never * Offline never Those are the ways I want to be able to configure my tablet to run. Right now I carry itr all the time and use it away from the computer, but I rarley use it at the office becuse I have to keep it alive I realize this might be a bit out of scope, but I am not really sure it neds to be. I have been mulling about this long enough I thghout I would semi hijack a thread related to PM. Thanks Brian ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
Brian Waite wrote: So I have another request, Can we possibly have different profiles for battery/powered? I think it is really important to be able to say if I am plugged in do not go offline because I want to get my VOIP calls, but if I am on battery do something more miserly. Again, we have the profiles already, I would just like to be able to use different profies for different power conditions. Thanks Brian Check RFE #1095[1] (Power Management Profiles) and vote for it if you agree it's the kind of thing you'd like to see in future and/or add comments clarifying how you think it should work etc. 1. https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1095 ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
Neil MacLeod wrote: Brian Waite wrote: So I have another request, Can we possibly have different profiles for battery/powered? I think it is really important to be able to say if I am plugged in do not go offline because I want to get my VOIP calls, but if I am on battery do something more miserly. Again, we have the profiles already, I would just like to be able to use different profies for different power conditions. Thanks Brian Check RFE #1095[1] (Power Management Profiles) and vote for it if you agree it's the kind of thing you'd like to see in future and/or add comments clarifying how you think it should work etc. 1. https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1095 Sorry, that should be bug #1046, https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1046 :) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
Igor Stoppa wrote: Hi, this is the presentation we gave last week in Ottawa at the pm summit. It is the first step in improving our communication process with the community and give a preview of what we are working on. http://maemo.org/midcom-permalink-0c828d202f2011dc9945e502835830f130f1 It contains a brief overview of what is already shipping in the 770 and the n800, but the main focus is about our work in progress. Comments and questions are welcomed. Thanks Igor, it is quite interesting. Maybe there is a bug on page 15 with DSP frequency for OP 0, shouldn't the 133 be 233 or 333 (unless you need to slow it down because of speeding up the arm core to meet some power requirement)? Does it mean the arm core in current N800 can run at 400Mhz? As for dynamic voltage and frequency scaling did I understood it correctly that even if lower voltage means considerable saving (even if task runs longer) it is almost not worth the hassle due to other issues (latency of voltage/frequency change, static power consumption of other parts, hard prediction of future)? Or how big savings do you expect overall from voltage/frequency scaling when the device is mostly idle (i.e being mostly waken up by inefficient system or apps waiting for something and not hogging the CPU). Or maybe the question is how efficient is the system currently, is there something like http://www.linuxpowertop.org/ for omap to see what can be improved or what cannot and could benefit from lower frequency/voltage? Do you plan to have user selectable power/speed profiles to let people choose whether they want slower system or shorter battery life? Or do you suppose there will be good enough cpufreq governor so it is not needed. Or do you consider some API so apps can suggest how fast system they want (i.e. media players, games, emulators vs book readers)? Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 10:08 +0200, ext Frantisek Dufka wrote: Thanks Igor, it is quite interesting. Maybe there is a bug on page 15 with DSP frequency for OP 0, shouldn't the 133 be 233 or 333 (unless you need to slow it down because of speeding up the arm core to meet some power requirement)? No, no bug unfortunately, simply TI doesn't support the combination with DSP @ 266 MHz (that would be the proper value). Of course ymmw and some chips probably can cope with it (actually there are also thermal issues so i bet that most OMAPs can do it at room temperature) but in order to provide a certain yield value, the constraints on the operating range are stricter. I certainly will run my tablet at higher speed and/or lower voltage; finland makes it unlikely to incur in heating problems ;-) Does it mean the arm core in current N800 can run at 400Mhz? Yes, the data is for stock N800 (we have this SpeedSorted OMAP2 that can run with ARM @ 400MHz). As for dynamic voltage and frequency scaling did I understood it correctly that even if lower voltage means considerable saving (even if task runs longer) it is almost not worth the hassle due to other issues (latency of voltage/frequency change, static power consumption of other parts, hard prediction of future)? It just means that the whole system must be considered, not only the processor. But we do have significant benefits at using the lower OP in many cases. It could be that there are benefits at using OP3 simply because of problems in the current implementation of the sw stack, so fixing them would make DVFS less attractive. But while we get all the issues fixed, DVFS seems to help, for example in reducing boot time and applications load time. Or how big savings do you expect overall from voltage/frequency scaling when the device is mostly idle (i.e being mostly waken up by inefficient system or apps waiting for something and not hogging the CPU). Or maybe the question is how efficient is the system currently, is there something like http://www.linuxpowertop.org/ for omap to see what can be improved or what cannot and could benefit from lower frequency/voltage? Yes, eventually our goal would also be to provide users with means to evaluate themselves 3rd party applications. I remember several times somebody complaining about battery life after installing some 3rd party application that had not gone through our validation process. Not that I'm really blaming the developers: one can do code review up to a certain point, but without proper tools it's hard to evaluate how pm friendly a caertain application is. Do you plan to have user selectable power/speed profiles to let people choose whether they want slower system or shorter battery life? My personal belief is that the user should not have to care about this: something is broken if the user has to be involved. The system should have all the info (and means) to run at good enough speed when needed. It's a similar case to sleep while idle vs user-controlled suspend: just because old devices were doing suspend that doesn't make it desirable. Or do you suppose there will be good enough cpufreq governor so it is not needed. On demand should fit the bill, with some fixes. Conservative is useles sfor every practical application, in our case. Or do you consider some API so apps can suggest how fast system they want (i.e. media players, games, emulators vs book readers)? You mean QoS. Yes, that seems to be the general understanding. Intel too is going in that direction and they have very serious problems when comparing their hw against OMAP, which is designed from ground up to be pm friendly. OMAP2 has retention mode and the transition to/from retention is much faster than any OP change, so race-to-idle is more important on OMAP than on x86 devices. I would expect Intel to get QoS usable before us because of a more urgent need. -- Cheers, Igor Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nokia Multimedia - CP - OSSO / Helsinki, Finland) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
On 7/11/07, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip lots of interesting stuff] It's a similar case to sleep while idle vs user-controlled suspend: just because old devices were doing suspend that doesn't make it desirable. This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did* want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to: * Shut off all network connections. * Stop any noise (except configured alarms) * Have the screen locked * Not have to save my position * Be able to resume quickly This isn't suspend in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the purpose is clear. Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bleb.org/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
Igor Stoppa wrote: I certainly will run my tablet at higher speed and/or lower voltage; finland makes it unlikely to incur in heating problems ;-) CPU temperature sensor might be useful to guess the limit and cut the speed down in case one is not in Finland :-) Is there one? Does it mean the arm core in current N800 can run at 400Mhz? Yes, the data is for stock N800 (we have this SpeedSorted OMAP2 that can run with ARM @ 400MHz). Cool :-) Well, maybe 'Hot' actually :-) Do you plan to have user selectable power/speed profiles to let people choose whether they want slower system or shorter battery life? My personal belief is that the user should not have to care about this: something is broken if the user has to be involved. The system should have all the info (and means) to run at good enough speed when needed. Well, I'm not sure but maybe when being conservative with power saving and when some hints are applied (i.e some API) it could work. I'm mainly thinking about CPU spikes when applications are starting. I fear the system will not react quickly enough with 'overclocking' when application starts since otherwise the device does nothing before and after. But this specific problem could be solved with some hints done from application launcher or maybe kernel or libc (exec/fork call) itself. I'm not sure how linux currently does it on x86 (shame on me, using XP on laptop and linux only in vmware) but my experience with RMClock on XP (http://cpu.rightmark.org/products/rmclock.shtml) is that it is hard/impossible to tune it in such way that application startup is not slower and you still save some power. It's a similar case to sleep while idle vs user-controlled suspend: just because old devices were doing suspend that doesn't make it desirable. Yes, this is old discussion. I still think proper suspend is useful. While current implementation is great and is mostly what users expect or can tolerate, sometimes you simply want to 'pause' or 'hibernate' the device no matter what, throw it in the bag and 8 hours (or 10 days) later resume exactly where you left off with minimum energy lost. Without stopping applications or thinking about anything. This is what proper suspend can give you. This is how notebooks and PDAs work. This is what would be sometimes useful even on internet tablets (no matter how 'always connected' they are supposed to be). But I agree current power management on Nokia tablets is great so this is not critical. Still I can't resist when this is brought up :-) I'm not saying this needs to be definitely implemented by freezing everything in user and/or kernel space. I'm saying that apart from current power saving when idle there should be easy way of telling the device to go to sleep completely (pausing audio, disconecting from network,...) Or do you consider some API so apps can suggest how fast system they want (i.e. media players, games, emulators vs book readers)? You mean QoS. Yes, that seems to be the general understanding. Yes that's it. Didn't know this term is used also in power management, though. Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
Apart from shutting off the sound thing thsi looks like a N770 cover on mode. Is that about right? Even if it's not, it's one I would like to have as well - as a put away for a while mode, Andy On Wednesday, July 11, 2007, at 01:29PM, Andrew Flegg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 7/11/07, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip lots of interesting stuff] It's a similar case to sleep while idle vs user-controlled suspend: just because old devices were doing suspend that doesn't make it desirable. This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did* want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to: * Shut off all network connections. * Stop any noise (except configured alarms) * Have the screen locked * Not have to save my position * Be able to resume quickly This isn't suspend in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the purpose is clear. Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bleb.org/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 13:28 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: On 7/11/07, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip lots of interesting stuff] It's a similar case to sleep while idle vs user-controlled suspend: just because old devices were doing suspend that doesn't make it desirable. This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did* want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to: * Shut off all network connections. * Stop any noise (except configured alarms) * Have the screen locked * Not have to save my position * Be able to resume quickly This isn't suspend in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the purpose is clear. Why not just put it in offline mode and lock the screen and keys? That's what i do and it simply works. The only drawback is that with sane applications you would get only 12 days with a full battery. I do admit that in some extreme case it might not be enough, but on OMAP2 it doesn't justify the hassle. I'd rather spend time and resources in fixing kernel and applications to make sleep while idle as close as possible to suspend to ram. Plain suspend to ram (or disk), imho, sucks, because it produces a useless brick till it is forcibly resumed. I think it would be much better to simply let wakeup events happen, but make sure that only the _useful_ ones happen. The user should be able to configure wakeup sources, certainly, even up to the point of saying: wake up only for power button, but the system should manage itself automatically. -- Cheers, Igor Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nokia Multimedia - CP - OSSO / Helsinki, Finland) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
On 7/11/07, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 13:28 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did* want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to: * Shut off all network connections. * Stop any noise (except configured alarms) * Have the screen locked * Not have to save my position * Be able to resume quickly This isn't suspend in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the purpose is clear. Why not just put it in offline mode and lock the screen and keys? That's what i do and it simply works. Well, that doesn't block sound so if the battery starts going down in the night, or similar, I could be awoken by a noise. It's also clumsy as the sequence is: 1) Press power button 2) Select offline mode 3) Press OK 4) Press power button 5) Press OK Unlocking is a simlar number. That's not exactly a simple sequence, as say the 770's cover was (as Andy Mulhearn points out). Now, if it was possible to hook into the power menu to define my own sequence of actions I could set up a turn off volume, go offline, lock screen keys function and map that to the top-most item. Is that possible? I've not seen any documentation on /etc/systemui/systemui.xml except for hacking it to re-enable soft-poweroff and reboot. The only drawback is that with sane applications you would get only 12 days with a full battery. As you point out elsewhere though, the only sane applications we can be sure of are the IT OS built-in ones, at the moment :-( I do admit that in some extreme case it might not be enough, but on OMAP2 it doesn't justify the hassle. As I said, when users say suspend they mean the kind of thing I describe above, what that maps to under the covers is not important. I'd rather spend time and resources in fixing kernel and applications to make sleep while idle as close as possible to suspend to ram. Agreed. But hopefully the system is open enough to allow third parties to hook into the infrastructure (e.g. power menu). Plain suspend to ram (or disk), imho, sucks, because it produces a useless brick till it is forcibly resumed. I think it would be much better to simply let wakeup events happen, but make sure that only the _useful_ ones happen. Absolutely. FSVO useful. The user should be able to configure wakeup sources, certainly, even up to the point of saying: wake up only for power button, but the system should manage itself automatically. Agreed, remember I'm talking about use-case for users, not if it's an *actual* system suspend under the covers. Cheers, Andrew -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bleb.org/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
On ons, 2007-07-11 at 13:28 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: On 7/11/07, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip lots of interesting stuff] It's a similar case to sleep while idle vs user-controlled suspend: just because old devices were doing suspend that doesn't make it desirable. This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did* want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to: * Shut off all network connections. * Stop any noise (except configured alarms) * Have the screen locked * Not have to save my position * Be able to resume quickly This isn't suspend in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the purpose is clear. So what you want is basically the Soft Poweroff option that's available to you with a simple: vim /etc/systemui/systemui.conf but with some minor tweaks? I guess that can be arranged =) Regards: David ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
On Wed, Jul 11, 2007 at 01:44:58PM +0100, Andrew Flegg wrote: On 7/11/07, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 13:28 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did* want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to: * Shut off all network connections. * Stop any noise (except configured alarms) * Have the screen locked * Not have to save my position * Be able to resume quickly This isn't suspend in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the purpose is clear. Why not just put it in offline mode and lock the screen and keys? That's what i do and it simply works. Well, that doesn't block sound so if the battery starts going down in the night, or similar, I could be awoken by a noise. It's also clumsy as the sequence is: 1) Press power button 2) Select offline mode 3) Press OK 4) Press power button 5) Press OK Unlocking is a simlar number. That's not exactly a simple sequence, as say the 770's cover was (as Andy Mulhearn points out). Right. Palm had a simple sequence: 1) Press power button There's also the popular story about a guy at Palm whose job was to count the taps needed to do something. (If it takes more than three taps, the user interface needs to be fixed, or something like that.) As a user, I noticed that immediately when I exchanged my old Palm to a 770. (It's getting better in newer software versions: copy paste moved one level up in the virtual keyboard menu.) Marius Gedminas -- If con is the opposite of pro, then what is the opposite of progress? signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
On 7/11/07, David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On ons, 2007-07-11 at 13:28 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did* want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to: * Shut off all network connections. * Stop any noise (except configured alarms) * Have the screen locked * Not have to save my position * Be able to resume quickly This isn't suspend in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the purpose is clear. So what you want is basically the Soft Poweroff option that's available [...] but with some minor tweaks? Yes, exactly :-) I guess that can be arranged =) Cool. Is it anything I could do straight off (I can also imagine a control panel applet to allow users to customise[1] this suspended state as Igor describes), or does it still dependent on some relatively closed/unhookable infrastructure? Cheers, Andrew [1] Sound on/off, network on/off being the obvious ones -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.bleb.org/ ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
On ons, 2007-07-11 at 13:53 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: On 7/11/07, David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On ons, 2007-07-11 at 13:28 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did* want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to: * Shut off all network connections. * Stop any noise (except configured alarms) * Have the screen locked * Not have to save my position * Be able to resume quickly This isn't suspend in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the purpose is clear. So what you want is basically the Soft Poweroff option that's available [...] but with some minor tweaks? Yes, exactly :-) I guess that can be arranged =) Cool. Is it anything I could do straight off (I can also imagine a control panel applet to allow users to customise[1] this suspended state as Igor describes), or does it still dependent on some relatively closed/unhookable infrastructure? systemui.xml (sorry, not conf as I wrote in my previous e-mail) file supports callbacks, to get customised behaviour. [1] Sound on/off, network on/off being the obvious ones I can make that configurable through /etc/mce/mce.ini Regards: David ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 16:01 +0300, David Weinehall wrote: On ons, 2007-07-11 at 13:53 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: On 7/11/07, David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On ons, 2007-07-11 at 13:28 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did* want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to: * Shut off all network connections. * Stop any noise (except configured alarms) * Have the screen locked * Not have to save my position * Be able to resume quickly This isn't suspend in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the purpose is clear. So what you want is basically the Soft Poweroff option that's available [...] but with some minor tweaks? Yes, exactly :-) I guess that can be arranged =) Cool. Is it anything I could do straight off (I can also imagine a control panel applet to allow users to customise[1] this suspended state as Igor describes), or does it still dependent on some relatively closed/unhookable infrastructure? systemui.xml (sorry, not conf as I wrote in my previous e-mail) file supports callbacks, to get customised behaviour. [1] Sound on/off, network on/off being the obvious ones I can make that configurable through /etc/mce/mce.ini Sorry to ruin the party, but as Mike Baker wrote some time ago (RFC: n800 suspend to ram) the suspend wouldn't be forever anyway: Mike's script or something similar should be used. So there _would_ be anyway some activity. -- Cheers, Igor Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nokia Multimedia - CP - OSSO / Helsinki, Finland) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
On Wed, 11 Jul 2007 15:52:10 +0300 Marius Gedminas [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Jul 11, 2007 at 01:44:58PM +0100, Andrew Flegg wrote: On 7/11/07, Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 13:28 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: This being reraised made me think about why, the other day, I *did* want user suspend. Sometimes I just want a quick way to: * Shut off all network connections. * Stop any noise (except configured alarms) * Have the screen locked * Not have to save my position * Be able to resume quickly This isn't suspend in a power sense, but in a use-case sense the purpose is clear. Why not just put it in offline mode and lock the screen and keys? That's what i do and it simply works. Well, that doesn't block sound so if the battery starts going down in the night, or similar, I could be awoken by a noise. It's also clumsy as the sequence is: 1) Press power button 2) Select offline mode 3) Press OK 4) Press power button 5) Press OK Unlocking is a simlar number. That's not exactly a simple sequence, as say the 770's cover was (as Andy Mulhearn points out). Right. Palm had a simple sequence: 1) Press power button I could suggest using a double click on the power button First click opens the Device mode dialogue. Second click suspends the device. Apply a timeout after the dialogue appears, if the power button click happens after this, the dialogue just closes (to prevent accidental suspends) There's also the popular story about a guy at Palm whose job was to count the taps needed to do something. (If it takes more than three taps, the user interface needs to be fixed, or something like that.) As a user, I noticed that immediately when I exchanged my old Palm to a 770. (It's getting better in newer software versions: copy paste moved one level up in the virtual keyboard menu.) Marius Gedminas -- If con is the opposite of pro, then what is the opposite of progress? ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
On ons, 2007-07-11 at 16:14 +0300, Igor Stoppa wrote: On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 16:01 +0300, David Weinehall wrote: On ons, 2007-07-11 at 13:53 +0100, ext Andrew Flegg wrote: systemui.xml (sorry, not conf as I wrote in my previous e-mail) file supports callbacks, to get customised behaviour. [1] Sound on/off, network on/off being the obvious ones I can make that configurable through /etc/mce/mce.ini Sorry to ruin the party, but as Mike Baker wrote some time ago (RFC: n800 suspend to ram) the suspend wouldn't be forever anyway: Mike's script or something similar should be used. So there _would_ be anyway some activity. Uhm? What's that got to do with anything? The standard soft-off in mce only relies on the excellent dynamic sleep of the device (but with display turned off, power off behaviour of the power button, touchscreen/keypad lock enabled, etc). Of course, if anyone wants to use suspend too, that's their choice, but really, Soft Poweroff doesn't rely on it. Regards: David ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
* Shut off all network connections. * Stop any noise (except configured alarms) * Have the screen locked * Not have to save my position * Be able to resume quickly a special softpoweroff mode combined with muted sound and offline mode sounds really useful to me. I could suggest using a double click on the power button First click opens the Device mode dialogue. Second click suspends the device. Apply a timeout after the dialogue appears, if the power button click happens after this, the dialogue just closes (to prevent accidental suspends) I think adding a PowerKeyDoubleAction and PowerKeyDoubleTimeout (or PowerKeyDoubleDelay) to mce.ini and making this all configurable would be the best approach. -- Kemal ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 14:29 +0200, ext Frantisek Dufka wrote: Igor Stoppa wrote: I certainly will run my tablet at higher speed and/or lower voltage; finland makes it unlikely to incur in heating problems ;-) CPU temperature sensor might be useful to guess the limit and cut the speed down in case one is not in Finland :-) Is there one? There is one between omap and the combo chip memory, but it is quite sucky. Not that we haven't thought about it. If there is some spare time (yeah, right) we could try to use it, but TI is unlikely to support it and therefore i'm quite confident it will ever ship (albeit it would be quite interesting since it would allow much more aggressive trimming down of the voltage). Well, I'm not sure but maybe when being conservative with power saving and when some hints are applied (i.e some API) it could work. I'm mainly thinking about CPU spikes when applications are starting. I fear the system will not react quickly enough with 'overclocking' when application starts since otherwise the device does nothing before and after. But this specific problem could be solved with some hints done from application launcher or maybe kernel or libc (exec/fork call) itself. Ondemand starts by cranking up to the max the frequency. It cannot be beaten. I'm not sure how linux currently does it on x86 (shame on me, using XP on laptop and linux only in vmware) but my experience with RMClock on XP (http://cpu.rightmark.org/products/rmclock.shtml) is that it is hard/impossible to tune it in such way that application startup is not slower and you still save some power. OMAP has retention so it's not that critical to fine tune. x86 otoh doesn't, afaik, so it would require more aggressive tuning [snip] You mean QoS. Yes, that seems to be the general understanding. Yes that's it. Didn't know this term is used also in power management, though. I use it :-P others are more shy about it, but when asked they admit that it is what they have on their mind. -- Cheers, Igor Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nokia Multimedia - CP - OSSO / Helsinki, Finland) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
On ons, 2007-07-11 at 15:16 +0200, ext Visti Andresen wrote: [snip] I could suggest using a double click on the power button First click opens the Device mode dialogue. Second click suspends the device. The idea is great, IMHO, but I doubt that Nokia's UI-team would agree; on a Nokia phone, pressing the power button when the device menu is open acts as cursor down. On our device it just ignores the press completely, which was an acceptable behaviour too. Adding a totally different behaviour would probably be regarded as too complicated for the user, or something =) [snip] Regards: David ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
On 7/11/07, Frantisek Dufka [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Igor Stoppa wrote: I certainly will run my tablet at higher speed and/or lower voltage; finland makes it unlikely to incur in heating problems ;-) CPU temperature sensor might be useful to guess the limit and cut the speed down in case one is not in Finland :-) Is there one? I noticed something that looked like a pseudofile for a temperature sensor somewhere under the /sys awhile back, can't remember the exact path right now, though. Neither do I have any idea whether the values there are useful; they looked a bit like temperature in Centigrades * 1000 or something and did change, but that doesn't mean that they're accurate, change in linear fashion etc. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
Marius Gedminas schrieb: Palm had a simple sequence: 1) Press power button Something like that had been suggested through https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1246 and was rejected as WONTFIX by the Nokia team. Regards, Hanno ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
ola https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1246 for me this gives There is a problem with this website's security certificate. on windows vista []'s ian -- http://ianlawrence.info ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
David Weinehall wrote: On ons, 2007-07-11 at 15:16 +0200, ext Visti Andresen wrote: [snip] I could suggest using a double click on the power button First click opens the Device mode dialogue. Second click suspends the device. The idea is great, IMHO, but I doubt that Nokia's UI-team would agree; on a Nokia phone, pressing the power button when the device menu is open acts as cursor down. On our device it just ignores the press completely, which was an acceptable behaviour too. Adding a totally different behaviour would probably be regarded as too complicated for the user, or something =) [snip] Regards: David Sounds similar to RFE https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=943 Vote it up if there's to be any hope of a change of heart on Nokia's part! :) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
On Wed, 2007-07-11 at 16:26 +0300, ext David Weinehall wrote: On ons, 2007-07-11 at 15:16 +0200, ext Visti Andresen wrote: [snip] I could suggest using a double click on the power button First click opens the Device mode dialogue. Second click suspends the device. The idea is great, IMHO, but I doubt that Nokia's UI-team would agree; on a Nokia phone, pressing the power button when the device menu is open acts as cursor down. On our device it just ignores the press completely, which was an acceptable behaviour too. Adding a totally different behaviour would probably be regarded as too complicated for the user, or something =) We are doing open software, right? So let's provide a good mechanism that supports more advanced interactions and even if we have to officially ship with a lame set of choices for the average user, others can implement more advanced features. From the discussion so far, I'm getting the impression that what people are actually asking for is a way to create very customised extra profiles. Example: Create Night mode and associate it with the shortcut (double press on the power button): -disable chat/presence -leave only VOIP with a subset of users actually able to generate rings -kill all the led signalling - All these actions should be (are they already?) commands to be sent to the interested application/daemon through DBUS, so a simple script, paired with a command line dbus interface would be sufficient. It's just a matter of having available the list of commands/requests supported by every application over DBUS. -- Cheers, Igor Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nokia Multimedia - CP - OSSO / Helsinki, Finland) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Internet Tablet Power Management presentation from linux-pm summit 2007
Hi, this is the presentation we gave last week in Ottawa at the pm summit. It is the first step in improving our communication process with the community and give a preview of what we are working on. http://maemo.org/midcom-permalink-0c828d202f2011dc9945e502835830f130f1 It contains a brief overview of what is already shipping in the 770 and the n800, but the main focus is about our work in progress. Comments and questions are welcomed. However, please understand that intentionally there is no reference to dates or future products: being wip it is under development and evaluation, therefore we cannot make any commitment till the job is completed. -- Cheers, Igor Igor Stoppa [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Nokia Multimedia - CP - OSSO / Helsinki, Finland) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
