Re: SDK, sources Re: On the problem of Nokia bugs substituting changelogs
Frantisek Dufka wrote: So will we get updated SDK release with sources for latest Diablo update (and any further one too)? No answer, looks like people responsible are busy with more important stuff. Just an additional info - old SDK also hurts people when doing development directly on tablet, see this one http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=220639#post220639 The 4.2008.30-2 update was released 08-11-2008 so it is more than 3 weeks now. Also can this whole firmware and SDK release procedure be changed so building and releasing sources is integral part of building and releasing any binary (firmware or SSU) as it is 'suggested' by GPL licence? Does it make sense to report this as separate bug in bugzilla? Or is it in wiki 2010/100days agenda somewhere? Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: SDK, sources Re: On the problem of Nokia bugs substituting changelogs
Hi. I opened the last week the bug 3648 about this problem. There is a comment explaining why the sources aren't in the repository yet. Sorry for the top posting, I am writing this in a small mobile client. 2008/9/4, Frantisek Dufka [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Frantisek Dufka wrote: So will we get updated SDK release with sources for latest Diablo update (and any further one too)? No answer, looks like people responsible are busy with more important stuff. Just an additional info - old SDK also hurts people when doing development directly on tablet, see this one http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=220639#post220639 The 4.2008.30-2 update was released 08-11-2008 so it is more than 3 weeks now. Also can this whole firmware and SDK release procedure be changed so building and releasing sources is integral part of building and releasing any binary (firmware or SSU) as it is 'suggested' by GPL licence? Does it make sense to report this as separate bug in bugzilla? Or is it in wiki 2010/100days agenda somewhere? Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers -- Daniel Martín Yerga http://yerga.net ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: SDK, sources Re: On the problem of Nokia bugs substituting changelogs
Hi there, ext Frantisek Dufka wrote: Frantisek Dufka wrote: So will we get updated SDK release with sources for latest Diablo update (and any further one too)? No answer, looks like people responsible are busy with more important stuff. http://repository.maemo.org/pool/maemo4.1/free/k/kernel-source-diablo/ Sorry for the delay. People responsible were waiting for some events needed to publish the sources. Now they are available. The _only_ difference is the WiMAX related code that is not used by the devices all you have. Just an additional info - old SDK also hurts people when doing development directly on tablet, see this one http://www.internettablettalk.com/forums/showthread.php?p=220639#post220639 (It is discouraged to install SDK packages in the devices. If someone wants to do this fine but as the own post you link says it might be *hazardous*. The 4.2008.30-2 update was released 08-11-2008 so it is more than 3 weeks now. Also can this whole firmware and SDK release procedure be changed so building and releasing sources is integral part of building and releasing any binary (firmware or SSU) as it is 'suggested' by GPL licence? This is how the process works. This time there was one exception because the mentioned events related to this WiMAX code - see also https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3648#c3 Our apologies and hopefully this won't happen again. -- Quim Gil marketing manager, open source Maemo Software @ Nokia ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: SDK, sources Re: On the problem of Nokia bugs substituting changelogs
Quim Gil wrote: (It is discouraged to install SDK packages in the devices. If someone wants to do this fine but as the own post you link says it might be *hazardous*. OK. We are also discouraged from having root access on the device ;-) The hazardous part here was mainly installing old packages to new system because of old -dev packages in current SDK. Otherwise having SDK repository configured on device is pretty sensible thing to do for any competent developer just like root access (discouraged or not). This is how the process works. This time there was one exception because the mentioned events related to this WiMAX code - see also https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3648#c3 Our apologies and hopefully this won't happen again. Thank you and apology for missing bug 3648. I should better check bugzilla next time. Sorry for creating too much noise too late. Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: On the problem of Nokia bugs substituting changelogs
On Tue, 2008-09-02 at 17:16 +0200, Andre Klapper wrote: Am Dienstag, den 02.09.2008, 16:41 +0300 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -Original Message- From: Dave Neary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ext Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would it be possible for the Modest team to exclusively use the external bugzilla, given that it's a free software project? It would be very nice from the community perspective, very much so, and of course it would make open development much easier as well. But, internally, the development process is highly regulated, and tools like bugzilla play different roles than they do outside -- trust me on that one. Modest has to satisfy both of its natures, with the internal one getting the most emphasis, for very pedestrian reasons... So, while I agree that it would be nice to have one open bugzilla, I do not see that happening anytime soon. I also do not see this happening very soon, but it is definitely a long-term target of mine. Developers want one central place to track software issues. This currently is Nokia's internal bug tracker, this should become bugs.maemo.org for Maemo open source projects. I'm not confident that this will happen even for open source parts because the work on open source parts is often secret. Nokia are just too afraid of leaking future product features and schedules. But maybe you can persuade them to do this for _some_ modules, such as GTK+, if not for others, such as hildon-libs. I don't speak for Nokia, of course. But that shouldn't be a blocker to getting some human-readable text for release notes or NEWS files (ChangeLogs are something else, traditionally). Once a release is published, I don't see how Nokia could object to publishing the changes. Hopefully Andre can be the guy to extract the bug titles for those internal bug numbers. It might would need advance planning. The task is to work out those issues that currently block managing Modest, MicroB, etc. completely in public and find solutions for each issue, most probably quite often with the input of lawyers, sigh... So adopting/using Nokia's current internal processes and workflows in public (bugs.maemo.org) requires having a policy about those pieces of information that a commercial company does not want to be accessed by its competitors, such as policy plans, product and hardware information, information about the internal testing infrastructure or especially copyright related issues. (Half of this email copied from a blog entry I was just writing on.) andre -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.murrayc.com www.openismus.com ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: On the problem of Nokia bugs substituting changelogs
Hi Ryan, -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ext Quim Gil ext Ryan Abel wrote: itT user free was kind enough to compile what basically amounts to a changelog for 4.2008.30-2[1] [2]Actually, let me take this opportunity to CALL OUT the Modest developers for very poor communication with the community for a supposedly open source project. Their component on Bugzilla seems to be virtually barren of real Modest-developer participation, and one only seems to be able to elicit a response from any of them when they're practically cornered on significant bugs. This is very unfortunate for what I hope will become a very cool, lightweight, and open source email client. . . . :( An explanation here could be a coincidence of factors: Dirk was the project manager and was quite open about the development, blogging and stuff - but he changed his role at Nokia and now is elsewhere. Most of the core development was/is done out of Nokia. Philip can answer for any tinymail related stuff since he is public upstream but the Modest implementation is upstream itself and open source, but developed through traditional contractual relations. Another lesson to learn here. If any Modest developer (or any Nokia subcontractor) reading this has ideas for improvement please let us/me know. Thanks again. Thanks Quim -- to add to that; I still keep an eye on Modest development, applying the occasional parch (as I did this morning). Anyhow, regarding Bugzilla - we do look at it, but as Quim explains, it takes quite some acrobatics to take care of both internal and external worlds. The Modest development team is very busy with feature development and bug fixes, and admittedly, after that there's not s much time left for interacting with the community. That's a sad fact. But, in the end, we are really trying to produce the best possible e-mail client, no matter what. We really appreciate the feedback through bugzilla and elsewhere. And if you have any specific issue, please mail me directly, let's see what we can do. Best wishes, Dirk. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
SDK, sources Re: On the problem of Nokia bugs substituting changelogs
Hi Quim, nice to see you back :-) Quim Gil wrote: but there are others that are about as bad as they could get. Let's list them too, and we will show them the previous list for reference on how a Nokia team can do things right. Another bad example here is the kernel, search the http://p.quinput.eu/debfarm/changelog.html file for 'kernel-diablo'. We can see only '* Updated kernel version XXX' instead of real info. So basically we are completely in the dark if new kernel actually fixes something or not. This is yet another annoyance to the fact that we still don't have updated sources in http://repository.maemo.org/pool/diablo/free for GPLed stuff updated in latest 4.2008.30-2 Diablo update. This is of course bad for any GPLed package but it causes practical problems especially for linux kernel source. There are a lot of kernel hacks in the wild and after each firmware people must choose between older customized kernel and new (possibly fixed? how can we know?) one. So will we get updated SDK release with sources for latest Diablo update (and any further one too)? Also can this whole firmware and SDK release procedure be changed so building and releasing sources is integral part of building and releasing any binary (firmware or SSU) as it is 'suggested' by GPL licence? We discussed this topic many times here with no visible change so far. Random pointers to previous discussion: http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2008-January/031424.html http://lists.maemo.org/pipermail/maemo-developers/2008-January/031426.html Frantisek ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: On the problem of Nokia bugs substituting changelogs
Hi, I hope this doesn't get taken too badly... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Modest development team is very busy with feature development and bug fixes, and admittedly, after that there's not s much time left for interacting with the community. That's a sad fact. The problem I have seen in the past is that when developers and project managers think of interacting with the community as a separate task, it doesn't get done. Open development is interacting with the community already, surely? If developers of a free software program are using a public mailing list to discuss features, a public bugzilla to handle bug reports, and perhaps an IRC channel or Jabber chat room for real-time interaction, then interacting with the commuinity is not a task to do, it is a side effect of product development. Would it be possible for the Modest team to exclusively use the external bugzilla, given that it's a free software project? Cheers, Dave. -- maemo.org docsmaster Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: On the problem of Nokia bugs substituting changelogs
Hi Dave, -Original Message- From: Dave Neary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ext Dave Neary I hope this doesn't get taken too badly... no worries... [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Modest development team is very busy with feature development and bug fixes, and admittedly, after that there's not s much time left for interacting with the community. That's a sad fact. The problem I have seen in the past is that when developers and project managers think of interacting with the community as a separate task, it doesn't get done. Open development is interacting with the community already, surely? If developers of a free software program are using a public mailing list to discuss features, a public bugzilla to handle bug reports, and perhaps an IRC channel or Jabber chat room for real-time interaction, then interacting with the commuinity is not a task to do, it is a side effect of product development. Would it be possible for the Modest team to exclusively use the external bugzilla, given that it's a free software project? It would be very nice from the community perspective, very much so, and of course it would make open development much easier as well. But, internally, the development process is highly regulated, and tools like bugzilla play different roles than they do outside -- trust me on that one. Modest has to satisfy both of its natures, with the internal one getting the most emphasis, for very pedestrian reasons... So, while I agree that it would be nice to have one open bugzilla, I do not see that happening anytime soon. Best wishes, Dirk. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: On the problem of Nokia bugs substituting changelogs
Am Montag, den 25.08.2008, 10:42 +0300 schrieb Eero Tamminen: As to linking internal and external bugs, I think more interesting would be how many of the public bugs (which aren't enhancements or unconfirmed) don't have a corresponding internal bug alias... the quota for the last month should be around 60%. I'm currently conservative about transfering maemo.org bug reports to Nokia's internal bug tracker because it's lots of work to keep them in sync (been working on some scripts to save me some time, but you cannot automatize this because of the noise ratio. This is another debate I won't start in this thread), and I normally wait until maemo.org bug reports have enough valuable information. Many reports are in moreinfo state or cannot be reproduced easily, hence the quota will never be 100%. andre -- Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
RE: On the problem of Nokia bugs substituting changelogs
Am Dienstag, den 02.09.2008, 16:41 +0300 schrieb [EMAIL PROTECTED]: -Original Message- From: Dave Neary [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of ext Dave Neary [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would it be possible for the Modest team to exclusively use the external bugzilla, given that it's a free software project? It would be very nice from the community perspective, very much so, and of course it would make open development much easier as well. But, internally, the development process is highly regulated, and tools like bugzilla play different roles than they do outside -- trust me on that one. Modest has to satisfy both of its natures, with the internal one getting the most emphasis, for very pedestrian reasons... So, while I agree that it would be nice to have one open bugzilla, I do not see that happening anytime soon. I also do not see this happening very soon, but it is definitely a long-term target of mine. Developers want one central place to track software issues. This currently is Nokia's internal bug tracker, this should become bugs.maemo.org for Maemo open source projects. The task is to work out those issues that currently block managing Modest, MicroB, etc. completely in public and find solutions for each issue, most probably quite often with the input of lawyers, sigh... So adopting/using Nokia's current internal processes and workflows in public (bugs.maemo.org) requires having a policy about those pieces of information that a commercial company does not want to be accessed by its competitors, such as policy plans, product and hardware information, information about the internal testing infrastructure or especially copyright related issues. (Half of this email copied from a blog entry I was just writing on.) andre -- Andre Klapper (maemo.org bugmaster) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: On the problem of Nokia bugs substituting changelogs
ext Ryan Abel [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Modest, in fact, seems to ENTIRELY substitute NB#'s for real changelogs[2]. Quoting a recent Modest changelog: modest (1.0-2008.26-1) hardy; urgency=low * Fixes: NB#83920, NB#86372, NB#86116, NB#84538, NB#84757, NB#85343 * Fixes: NB#85344, NB#85034, NB#83892, NB#84808, NB#84791, NB#82137 * Fixes: NB#83135, NB#85622, NB#86097, NB#86176, NB#85201, NB#84348 * Fixes: NB#81798, NB#85873, NB#85743, NB#84605, NB#81429 -- Dirk-Jan C. Binnema [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:01:57 +0300 I am guilty of this practice, too, (with the hildon-application-manager) but I think I have a semi-sane explanation: I use two files with change information: a GNU-style ChangeLog file in the top directory (or multiple of these in sub-directories), and Debian-style debian/changelog file. I use the GNU-style ChangeLog for detailed descriptions of changes to the source code (including bug numbers from both the internal and the maemo Bugzilla as background information), and I use debian/changelog for changes to the packaging bits in debian/. I also use debian/changelog for the magic Fixes: NB#x. entries that are required by our development process to drive the internal Bugzilla. What I don't do, but should, is to maintain release notes in a GNU-style NEWS file. (I would not write individual release notes for the dozens of snapshots it takes until the OS is released, I would just write a single one describing the user visible changes since the last OS release.) ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
On the problem of Nokia bugs substituting changelogs
itT user free was kind enough to compile what basically amounts to a changelog for 4.2008.30-2[1] (something Nokia has been promising to do for 2 years now with zero results). What I've noticed about these changelogs is that many of them mention Nokia bug numbers in lieu of actually providing real information on changes. Though typical of Nokia, this is _NOT_ acceptable. This practice limits deciphering of these changelogs to people who have access to Nokia's internal tracker. While this is great for Nokia employees and contractors, this is not an OK thing to hoist upon the community. Now, there are a few projects that aren't so bad (rtcomm, in particular, seems consistent about using the Nokia bug #'s more as backgrounds references rather than substitutions for real changelogs), but there are others that are about as bad as they could get. Modest, in fact, seems to ENTIRELY substitute NB#'s for real changelogs[2]. Quoting a recent Modest changelog: modest (1.0-2008.26-1) hardy; urgency=low * Fixes: NB#83920, NB#86372, NB#86116, NB#84538, NB#84757, NB#85343 * Fixes: NB#85344, NB#85034, NB#83892, NB#84808, NB#84791, NB#82137 * Fixes: NB#83135, NB#85622, NB#86097, NB#86176, NB#85201, NB#84348 * Fixes: NB#81798, NB#85873, NB#85743, NB#84605, NB#81429 -- Dirk-Jan C. Binnema [EMAIL PROTECTED] Mon, 23 Jun 2008 11:01:57 +0300 I was considering how I might go about filing a bug in Bugzilla about this, but the problem is too widespread and I don't feel like filling a bug for each individual project that allows this practice (they'll just be ignored anyway https://bugs.maemo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=3442 :\), and a wiki page about it wont accomplish anything. So I'm appealing to this list and any Nokia developers on it responsible for creating changelogs, or who have any influence over their creation. Please, try not to exclude the community even more from Nokia's development process, and please stop degrading Nokia's image in the community. It's bad enough as-is. Now, I realize some things are confidential, and can't be mentioned in public changelogs, but this exception doesn't apply to open source packages. At the very least, you could at least provide a bug summary to go with the bug number (this can be scripted, so too much work isn't a valid excuse), or go the extra mile and provide real changelogs (perhaps with maemo.org bugzilla bug numbers when relevant?). I thank you for your time and consideration. Remember: the community wants to help, and excluding it is bad for you and bad for Nokia. :) [1]http://p.quinput.eu/debfarm/changelog.html [2]Actually, let me take this opportunity to CALL OUT the Modest developers for very poor communication with the community for a supposedly open source project. Their component on Bugzilla seems to be virtually barren of real Modest-developer participation, and one only seems to be able to elicit a response from any of them when they're practically cornered on significant bugs. This is very unfortunate for what I hope will become a very cool, lightweight, and open source email client. . . . :( ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: On the problem of Nokia bugs substituting changelogs
On Sun, 2008-08-24 at 14:15 -0400, ext Ryan Abel wrote: While this is great for Nokia employees and contractors, this is not an OK thing to hoist upon the community. Even for internals it's not so nice to constantly refer to bugzilla and certainly very few bugs are known by heart by developers - and even then not _that_many_ developers. -- Cheers, Igor --- Igor Stoppa Maemo Software - Nokia Devices RD - Helsinki ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
