Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 8:20 PM, Ian Stirling maemo-de...@mauve.plus.com wrote: Robin Burchell wrote: On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Ian Stirling maemo-de...@mauve.plus.com wrote: It's pretty hard to find out what's eating the battery on N900. First you have decide that the battery is being consumed too fast. The default charge meter occasionally realizes it's very wrong, and rapidly readjusts itself, giving potential misreadings there. bq27200 certainly helps there, though there's no production quality software available to use it yet. Nokia Energy Profiler still shines with its absence ;) I'm trying to develop something like this. An energy profiler. The ideal would be 'top' - sorted by power use. But this is hard. :) You mean, like, powertop? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerTOP No, fairly unlike powertop. Powertop sorts by wakeups, which is not useless. Consider a compute intensive task that uses 99.95% of the CPU. At the same time, you've got a lightweight task that polls some descriptor 10 times a second. This will appear above the application that's really causing most battery drain. Powertops metric - wakeups per second - is arguably for some loads better than top, but it can be horribly misleading for a number of reasons. Ideally we'd have a few of the profilers each one for its metric or combine the logic into one process (to be as lightweight) so we'd get all the metrics in one profiling run. Sivan ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
Doesn't the userland carry some sort of process monitoring, killing malignant processes ? If not, we should develop something like this for MeeGo. It's pretty hard to find out what's eating the battery on N900. First you have decide that the battery is being consumed too fast. The default charge meter occasionally realizes it's very wrong, and rapidly readjusts itself, giving potential misreadings there. bq27200 certainly helps there, though there's no production quality software available to use it yet. Nokia Energy Profiler still shines with its absence ;) After that, running powertop (oh, oops, removed from the firmware images early on) is nice for finding processes that consume too much CPU /in idle/. Normal top can only find processes that just eat too much CPU alltogether. If 3G internet connection is active, then it's a good idea to monitor it for traffic. If there's traffic moving occasionally (one packet every 5-10 seconds seems to be enough to keep the power usage high enough to die in 6 hours), tcpdump can help find out what kind of traffic is moving and to where. Finding out what app is responsible almost needs lsof or similar. Then the driver bugs, wlan can often wedge itself into consuming enormous amounts of power, /especially/ when it's /not/ used/active. 'ifconfig wlan0 down' often helps with the runaway wlan issue. Personally the most common causes for runaway power consumption is when someone tries to bruteforce my ssh password on the phone (which excercises the internet connection and also the cpu heavily), and the wlan bug. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
Jan Knutar wrote: Doesn't the userland carry some sort of process monitoring, killing malignant processes ? If not, we should develop something like this for MeeGo. It's pretty hard to find out what's eating the battery on N900. First you have decide that the battery is being consumed too fast. The default charge meter occasionally realizes it's very wrong, and rapidly readjusts itself, giving potential misreadings there. bq27200 certainly helps there, though there's no production quality software available to use it yet. Nokia Energy Profiler still shines with its absence ;) I'm trying to develop something like this. An energy profiler. The ideal would be 'top' - sorted by power use. But this is hard. :) Initial stages are looking like something rather more modest. Basically porportion out to every job that ran in a measured period a best guess at a 'fair' proportion of the power use during that period. Further break this down by subsystem. It's not 'fair' for example to count the power usage of xterm as very high, due to the backlight/display being on, when that's the users fault. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Ian Stirling maemo-de...@mauve.plus.com wrote: It's pretty hard to find out what's eating the battery on N900. First you have decide that the battery is being consumed too fast. The default charge meter occasionally realizes it's very wrong, and rapidly readjusts itself, giving potential misreadings there. bq27200 certainly helps there, though there's no production quality software available to use it yet. Nokia Energy Profiler still shines with its absence ;) I'm trying to develop something like this. An energy profiler. The ideal would be 'top' - sorted by power use. But this is hard. :) You mean, like, powertop? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerTOP Robin Burchell mob: +447702671419 msn: m...@viroteck.net irc: w00t @ irc.freenode.net twr: http://twitter.com/w00teh lac: http://identi.ca/w00t ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
Robin Burchell wrote: On Sun, Jun 6, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Ian Stirling maemo-de...@mauve.plus.com wrote: It's pretty hard to find out what's eating the battery on N900. First you have decide that the battery is being consumed too fast. The default charge meter occasionally realizes it's very wrong, and rapidly readjusts itself, giving potential misreadings there. bq27200 certainly helps there, though there's no production quality software available to use it yet. Nokia Energy Profiler still shines with its absence ;) I'm trying to develop something like this. An energy profiler. The ideal would be 'top' - sorted by power use. But this is hard. :) You mean, like, powertop? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerTOP No, fairly unlike powertop. Powertop sorts by wakeups, which is not useless. Consider a compute intensive task that uses 99.95% of the CPU. At the same time, you've got a lightweight task that polls some descriptor 10 times a second. This will appear above the application that's really causing most battery drain. Powertops metric - wakeups per second - is arguably for some loads better than top, but it can be horribly misleading for a number of reasons. ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
On Sun, 2010-05-30 at 10:30 +0200, ext Sivan Greenberg wrote: Stuck could be deduced for example when the process is in more then 90% CPU for more than a threshold duration that we will predetermine and being idle on its I/O streams. But that would prevent running s...@home ;) Browser could easily take 90% CPU in a legal case when flash is involved. -Kimmo Sivan On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Daniil Ivanov daniil.iva...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Sivian! How do you define the stuck? It's Ok for the process to consume 90% of CPU time for short period of time. Thanks, Daniil. On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: Hey Daniil, If a process is stuck in and awakened , and consumes more then a $PERDEFINED % of cpu, and it's output and input streams are idle, then I'd say we need to seriously consider killing it. Sivan On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Daniil Ivanov daniil.iva...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Silvan! In these terms GPS and WiFi are also maligant. How kernel or anything else could know what is reasonable power consumption for a process? Thanks, Daniil. On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: Actually, I would think the kernel should already do something like that... On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: Doesn't the userland carry some sort of process monitoring, killing malignant processes ? If not, we should develop something like this for MeeGo. Sivan On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Aniello Del Sorbo ani...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2010 10:03, Andrea Grandi a.gra...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On 29 May 2010 19:02, Ian v...@riseup.net wrote: Hi I went to sleep at 3:00, I wake up few minutes ago with the N900 powered off. There was not any active connection when I went to sleep, so could anyone please explain me WHO drained my whole battery?! Bluetooth? I'd check that I never use it Is this a freshly flashed N900? Or did you restore from a backup? I had mine died yesterday in half a day because a process (I think intellisync or something like that) was stuck somehow somewhere. I have mine from a restored backup. Sure I wanted it to be stable after a restore, but sometimes old config files/settings/whatever cause unexpected (quite impossible to catch in testing) behaviors. -- anidel ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
Okay, so we could special case certain process or process groups that need that sort of CPU intensity (I wonder how Chrome is in that regard) . If N900 had a larger stronger battery and if my 3G data connection would have been free, I would not had any objections running s...@home on my N900! I'm quite sure we are not alone in this universe ;) Sivan 2010/5/31 Kimmo Hämäläinen kimmo.hamalai...@nokia.com: On Sun, 2010-05-30 at 10:30 +0200, ext Sivan Greenberg wrote: Stuck could be deduced for example when the process is in more then 90% CPU for more than a threshold duration that we will predetermine and being idle on its I/O streams. But that would prevent running s...@home ;) Browser could easily take 90% CPU in a legal case when flash is involved. -Kimmo Sivan On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Daniil Ivanov daniil.iva...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Sivian! How do you define the stuck? It's Ok for the process to consume 90% of CPU time for short period of time. Thanks, Daniil. On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: Hey Daniil, If a process is stuck in and awakened , and consumes more then a $PERDEFINED % of cpu, and it's output and input streams are idle, then I'd say we need to seriously consider killing it. Sivan On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Daniil Ivanov daniil.iva...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Silvan! In these terms GPS and WiFi are also maligant. How kernel or anything else could know what is reasonable power consumption for a process? Thanks, Daniil. On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: Actually, I would think the kernel should already do something like that... On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: Doesn't the userland carry some sort of process monitoring, killing malignant processes ? If not, we should develop something like this for MeeGo. Sivan On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Aniello Del Sorbo ani...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2010 10:03, Andrea Grandi a.gra...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On 29 May 2010 19:02, Ian v...@riseup.net wrote: Hi I went to sleep at 3:00, I wake up few minutes ago with the N900 powered off. There was not any active connection when I went to sleep, so could anyone please explain me WHO drained my whole battery?! Bluetooth? I'd check that I never use it Is this a freshly flashed N900? Or did you restore from a backup? I had mine died yesterday in half a day because a process (I think intellisync or something like that) was stuck somehow somewhere. I have mine from a restored backup. Sure I wanted it to be stable after a restore, but sometimes old config files/settings/whatever cause unexpected (quite impossible to catch in testing) behaviors. -- anidel ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
Hi Silvan! In these terms GPS and WiFi are also maligant. How kernel or anything else could know what is reasonable power consumption for a process? Thanks, Daniil. On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: Actually, I would think the kernel should already do something like that... On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: Doesn't the userland carry some sort of process monitoring, killing malignant processes ? If not, we should develop something like this for MeeGo. Sivan On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Aniello Del Sorbo ani...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2010 10:03, Andrea Grandi a.gra...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On 29 May 2010 19:02, Ian v...@riseup.net wrote: Hi I went to sleep at 3:00, I wake up few minutes ago with the N900 powered off. There was not any active connection when I went to sleep, so could anyone please explain me WHO drained my whole battery?! Bluetooth? I'd check that I never use it Is this a freshly flashed N900? Or did you restore from a backup? I had mine died yesterday in half a day because a process (I think intellisync or something like that) was stuck somehow somewhere. I have mine from a restored backup. Sure I wanted it to be stable after a restore, but sometimes old config files/settings/whatever cause unexpected (quite impossible to catch in testing) behaviors. -- anidel ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
Hey Daniil, If a process is stuck in and awakened , and consumes more then a $PERDEFINED % of cpu, and it's output and input streams are idle, then I'd say we need to seriously consider killing it. Sivan On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Daniil Ivanov daniil.iva...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Silvan! In these terms GPS and WiFi are also maligant. How kernel or anything else could know what is reasonable power consumption for a process? Thanks, Daniil. On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: Actually, I would think the kernel should already do something like that... On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: Doesn't the userland carry some sort of process monitoring, killing malignant processes ? If not, we should develop something like this for MeeGo. Sivan On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Aniello Del Sorbo ani...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2010 10:03, Andrea Grandi a.gra...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On 29 May 2010 19:02, Ian v...@riseup.net wrote: Hi I went to sleep at 3:00, I wake up few minutes ago with the N900 powered off. There was not any active connection when I went to sleep, so could anyone please explain me WHO drained my whole battery?! Bluetooth? I'd check that I never use it Is this a freshly flashed N900? Or did you restore from a backup? I had mine died yesterday in half a day because a process (I think intellisync or something like that) was stuck somehow somewhere. I have mine from a restored backup. Sure I wanted it to be stable after a restore, but sometimes old config files/settings/whatever cause unexpected (quite impossible to catch in testing) behaviors. -- anidel ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
Hi Sivian! How do you define the stuck? It's Ok for the process to consume 90% of CPU time for short period of time. Thanks, Daniil. On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: Hey Daniil, If a process is stuck in and awakened , and consumes more then a $PERDEFINED % of cpu, and it's output and input streams are idle, then I'd say we need to seriously consider killing it. Sivan On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Daniil Ivanov daniil.iva...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Silvan! In these terms GPS and WiFi are also maligant. How kernel or anything else could know what is reasonable power consumption for a process? Thanks, Daniil. On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: Actually, I would think the kernel should already do something like that... On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: Doesn't the userland carry some sort of process monitoring, killing malignant processes ? If not, we should develop something like this for MeeGo. Sivan On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Aniello Del Sorbo ani...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2010 10:03, Andrea Grandi a.gra...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On 29 May 2010 19:02, Ian v...@riseup.net wrote: Hi I went to sleep at 3:00, I wake up few minutes ago with the N900 powered off. There was not any active connection when I went to sleep, so could anyone please explain me WHO drained my whole battery?! Bluetooth? I'd check that I never use it Is this a freshly flashed N900? Or did you restore from a backup? I had mine died yesterday in half a day because a process (I think intellisync or something like that) was stuck somehow somewhere. I have mine from a restored backup. Sure I wanted it to be stable after a restore, but sometimes old config files/settings/whatever cause unexpected (quite impossible to catch in testing) behaviors. -- anidel ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
Stuck could be deduced for example when the process is in more then 90% CPU for more than a threshold duration that we will predetermine and being idle on its I/O streams. Sivan On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Daniil Ivanov daniil.iva...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Sivian! How do you define the stuck? It's Ok for the process to consume 90% of CPU time for short period of time. Thanks, Daniil. On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 11:20 AM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: Hey Daniil, If a process is stuck in and awakened , and consumes more then a $PERDEFINED % of cpu, and it's output and input streams are idle, then I'd say we need to seriously consider killing it. Sivan On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 11:07 AM, Daniil Ivanov daniil.iva...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Silvan! In these terms GPS and WiFi are also maligant. How kernel or anything else could know what is reasonable power consumption for a process? Thanks, Daniil. On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:49 PM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: Actually, I would think the kernel should already do something like that... On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: Doesn't the userland carry some sort of process monitoring, killing malignant processes ? If not, we should develop something like this for MeeGo. Sivan On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Aniello Del Sorbo ani...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2010 10:03, Andrea Grandi a.gra...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On 29 May 2010 19:02, Ian v...@riseup.net wrote: Hi I went to sleep at 3:00, I wake up few minutes ago with the N900 powered off. There was not any active connection when I went to sleep, so could anyone please explain me WHO drained my whole battery?! Bluetooth? I'd check that I never use it Is this a freshly flashed N900? Or did you restore from a backup? I had mine died yesterday in half a day because a process (I think intellisync or something like that) was stuck somehow somewhere. I have mine from a restored backup. Sure I wanted it to be stable after a restore, but sometimes old config files/settings/whatever cause unexpected (quite impossible to catch in testing) behaviors. -- anidel ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
QA Proposals (was Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours)
On 29/05/10 17:52, Sivan Greenberg wrote: Yes, I am working on this :) Real life and bills paying can sometimes get in the way but I'm slowly going back to being fully active with MeeGo. I will send a notification to go over and review [0] once it is finished, as so far I outlined the tools that will enable us better QA but have not expanded them and elaborated. Then I would ask the TSG to approve the team creation, which would also attempt to engage users in QA and specific niche testing of the software we deliver. Hi Sivan Just checking : [0]: http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Quality_Assurance_working_group and maemo-developers mailing list So we should really take (or at least cc) the QAWG to meego-dev (but see later) However could you look at: http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Repository_working_group Having spent quite a lot of time pushing for *something* to be done in this area I'd like to suggest that the successor to the RWG encompases this kind of QA activity. Personally, I'd also suggest that you forget about Working Groups the powers that be don't seem interested in setting up WGs for much other than product direction at the moment; certainly they won't (AFAIUI) set one up for just QA; it would be expected to fall under a larger umbrella. See the various TSG logs for the past few months for my (lbt) attempts and more useful URLs. Of course there's also the Meeting call for Community application support that you responded to on the -community ml. Lets follow up in that meeting. Right... now the see later: I actually don't think there's much point in doing MeeGo QA policy right now anyway; I think we'd be *far* better off working on Maemo QA for Fremantle ... and Harmattan. We have an established community and real devices to work with. We're also working on moving the build and QA infrastructure in Maemo towards the same basic shape that I think we'll see in MeeGo (ie an OBS driven approach). FYI I'm also working on workflow automation and integration with image and test systems internally for Nokia and we expect those solutions to be OSS and deployed on maemo.org meego.com(munity) So if we work on a decent solution for Maemo and ensure it's suitable for MeeGo then we solve a lot of real-world issues. David -- Don't worry, you'll be fine; I saw it work in a cartoon once... ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: QA Proposals (was Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours)
On Sun, May 30, 2010 at 10:20 PM, David Greaves da...@dgreaves.com wrote: Hi Sivan Just checking : [0]: http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Quality_Assurance_working_group and maemo-developers mailing list So we should really take (or at least cc) the QAWG to meego-dev (but see later) Agreed. I was sure I was cc'ing meego-dev, but I responded while busy with a load of other things so this slipped me. However could you look at: http://wiki.meego.com/Proposal_for_a_Repository_working_group Having spent quite a lot of time pushing for *something* to be done in this area I'd like to suggest that the successor to the RWG encompases this kind of QA activity. I will, many thanks for re-pointing at it. I was not aware it would be so relevant to this subject, as I got the impression this is very much related to app development and not the core, but if we have access to the core packages that setup the very base system (minus the kernel, I'm not a kernel dev and not claiming to be) that this is probably where it belongs. Personally, I'd also suggest that you forget about Working Groups the powers that be don't seem interested in setting up WGs for much other than product direction at the moment; certainly they won't (AFAIUI) set one up for just QA; it would be expected to fall under a larger umbrella. See the various TSG logs for the past few months for my (lbt) attempts and more useful URLs. Will do. What would be the larger umbrella ? (-for the impatient ;)) Of course there's also the Meeting call for Community application support that you responded to on the -community ml. Lets follow up in that meeting. Are you referring to the next TSG meeting? Right... now the see later: I actually don't think there's much point in doing MeeGo QA policy right now anyway; I think we'd be *far* better off working on Maemo QA for Fremantle ... and Harmattan. We have an established community and real devices to work with. Is there a policy in place for Maemo? We're also working on moving the build and QA infrastructure in Maemo towards the same basic shape that I think we'll see in MeeGo (ie an OBS driven approach). FYI I'm also working on workflow automation and integration with image and test systems internally for Nokia and we expect those solutions to be OSS and deployed on maemo.org meego.com(munity) Great. What is the prospect of wiring those systems with system-wide integrative tests? So if we work on a decent solution for Maemo and ensure it's suitable for MeeGo then we solve a lot of real-world issues. Is there anyting out there to work on? How can we make it suitable for MeeGo if there are not real devices out there yet? You just mentioned those internal stuff , which would be released as OSS , but then wouldn't things be more set in stone? How can I now influence or contribute as a non technical user to that QA process? Important note: I'm not bashing, just sincerely interested in the true state of things and try to see where we can improve. Given all the QA Maemo had been given so far (which I admit I have no detailed knowledge of) the OS and device combination is till something very much for the tech savy and hackers and rough on the edges. As a sad personal example for me, in Israel no operator would sell N900, but *all of them* carry iPhones in its multitude of versions and makes. Sivan ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
Hi all, this is my situation: - N900 with PR 1.2 flashed - full charged battery - extras-devel and extras-testing disabled - 2 installed and running widget: facebook (pre-installed by default) and Twitter (available on OVI store) I expect this software to be STABLE. I went to sleep at 3:00, I wake up few minutes ago with the N900 powered off. There was not any active connection when I went to sleep, so could anyone please explain me WHO drained my whole battery?! Thanks, -- Andrea Grandi email: a.grandi [AT] gmail [DOT] com website: http://www.andreagrandi.it PGP Key: http://www.andreagrandi.it/pgp_key.asc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Andrea Grandi a.gra...@gmail.com wrote: I went to sleep at 3:00, I wake up few minutes ago with the N900 powered off. There was not any active connection when I went to sleep, so could anyone please explain me WHO drained my whole battery?! Can you ensure that your phone doesn't create connections automatically? -- Ville M. Vainio http://tinyurl.com/vainio ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
Hi Andrea! What is your settings for internet connections (Settings-Internet Connection). It's good idea to change it to Always ask. Thanks, Daniil On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Andrea Grandi a.gra...@gmail.com wrote: Hi all, this is my situation: - N900 with PR 1.2 flashed - full charged battery - extras-devel and extras-testing disabled - 2 installed and running widget: facebook (pre-installed by default) and Twitter (available on OVI store) I expect this software to be STABLE. I went to sleep at 3:00, I wake up few minutes ago with the N900 powered off. There was not any active connection when I went to sleep, so could anyone please explain me WHO drained my whole battery?! Thanks, -- Andrea Grandi email: a.grandi [AT] gmail [DOT] com website: http://www.andreagrandi.it PGP Key: http://www.andreagrandi.it/pgp_key.asc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
Hi, On 29 May 2010 12:11, Ville M. Vainio vivai...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Andrea Grandi a.gra...@gmail.com wrote: I went to sleep at 3:00, I wake up few minutes ago with the N900 powered off. There was not any active connection when I went to sleep, so could anyone please explain me WHO drained my whole battery?! Can you ensure that your phone doesn't create connections automatically? yes I'm sure. I never let it connect automatically. And just for you to notice: once I really forgot to disconnect before going to sleep: when I wake up I still had more than half of the battery, but this is of course not the case. So my suspects are: - the Twitter widget available in OVI (if it's this, congratulation to people who publish software in OVI store without let testers to test it in extras-devel / extras-testing) - the facebook widget (very strange since it's available from the beginning, someone should have noticed this bug) - something really weird introduced with PR 1.2 (no comment). Regards, -- Andrea Grandi email: a.grandi [AT] gmail [DOT] com website: http://www.andreagrandi.it PGP Key: http://www.andreagrandi.it/pgp_key.asc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
Hi Andrea! On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Andrea Grandi a.gra...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On 29 May 2010 12:11, Ville M. Vainio vivai...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Andrea Grandi a.gra...@gmail.com wrote: I went to sleep at 3:00, I wake up few minutes ago with the N900 powered off. There was not any active connection when I went to sleep, so could anyone please explain me WHO drained my whole battery?! Can you ensure that your phone doesn't create connections automatically? yes I'm sure. I never let it connect automatically. And just for you to notice: once I really forgot to disconnect before going to sleep: when I wake up I still had more than half of the battery, but this is of course not the case. So my suspects are: - the Twitter widget available in OVI (if it's this, congratulation to people who publish software in OVI store without let testers to test it in extras-devel / extras-testing) The key word in phrase Ovi Store is a Store. Nobody will upload commercial applications to extras-devel or extras-testing. This is the way Ovi Store works. You can save battery info log with the commands: lshal | grep battery.reporting.current battery.log date battery.log try to use facebook widget separately, twitter widget separately and maybe both of widgets disabled and see how battery life is affected. Thanks, Daniil - the facebook widget (very strange since it's available from the beginning, someone should have noticed this bug) - something really weird introduced with PR 1.2 (no comment). Regards, -- Andrea Grandi email: a.grandi [AT] gmail [DOT] com website: http://www.andreagrandi.it PGP Key: http://www.andreagrandi.it/pgp_key.asc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
I also experienced that with the Facebook widget alone, but the battery performance is also very poor without any active widgets or connections (6 hours max!). I am also curious what sort of QA procedures the OVI store publishing process carries, but this is what I think only one sign of a greater problem with quality assurance that I think is lacking across projects. I hope we can change this in MeeGo, and ASAP. Sivan On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Daniil Ivanov daniil.iva...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Andrea! On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Andrea Grandi a.gra...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On 29 May 2010 12:11, Ville M. Vainio vivai...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Andrea Grandi a.gra...@gmail.com wrote: I went to sleep at 3:00, I wake up few minutes ago with the N900 powered off. There was not any active connection when I went to sleep, so could anyone please explain me WHO drained my whole battery?! Can you ensure that your phone doesn't create connections automatically? yes I'm sure. I never let it connect automatically. And just for you to notice: once I really forgot to disconnect before going to sleep: when I wake up I still had more than half of the battery, but this is of course not the case. So my suspects are: - the Twitter widget available in OVI (if it's this, congratulation to people who publish software in OVI store without let testers to test it in extras-devel / extras-testing) The key word in phrase Ovi Store is a Store. Nobody will upload commercial applications to extras-devel or extras-testing. This is the way Ovi Store works. You can save battery info log with the commands: lshal | grep battery.reporting.current battery.log date battery.log try to use facebook widget separately, twitter widget separately and maybe both of widgets disabled and see how battery life is affected. Thanks, Daniil - the facebook widget (very strange since it's available from the beginning, someone should have noticed this bug) - something really weird introduced with PR 1.2 (no comment). Regards, -- Andrea Grandi email: a.grandi [AT] gmail [DOT] com website: http://www.andreagrandi.it PGP Key: http://www.andreagrandi.it/pgp_key.asc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
Sivan, If you have suggestions for the QA that we can control (i.e. that of maemo.org Extras) please share them. Also, examples of problems with Ovi's QA (such as obvious battery drainers) will help Nokia see that crowdsourced QA can be better than their in-house stuff (though our 10 day process is apparently a bit longer than theirs). Cheers, Andrew On 29/05/2010, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: I also experienced that with the Facebook widget alone, but the battery performance is also very poor without any active widgets or connections (6 hours max!). I am also curious what sort of QA procedures the OVI store publishing process carries, but this is what I think only one sign of a greater problem with quality assurance that I think is lacking across projects. I hope we can change this in MeeGo, and ASAP. Sivan On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Daniil Ivanov daniil.iva...@gmail.com wrote: Hi Andrea! On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 1:18 PM, Andrea Grandi a.gra...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On 29 May 2010 12:11, Ville M. Vainio vivai...@gmail.com wrote: On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Andrea Grandi a.gra...@gmail.com wrote: I went to sleep at 3:00, I wake up few minutes ago with the N900 powered off. There was not any active connection when I went to sleep, so could anyone please explain me WHO drained my whole battery?! Can you ensure that your phone doesn't create connections automatically? yes I'm sure. I never let it connect automatically. And just for you to notice: once I really forgot to disconnect before going to sleep: when I wake up I still had more than half of the battery, but this is of course not the case. So my suspects are: - the Twitter widget available in OVI (if it's this, congratulation to people who publish software in OVI store without let testers to test it in extras-devel / extras-testing) The key word in phrase Ovi Store is a Store. Nobody will upload commercial applications to extras-devel or extras-testing. This is the way Ovi Store works. You can save battery info log with the commands: lshal | grep battery.reporting.current battery.log date battery.log try to use facebook widget separately, twitter widget separately and maybe both of widgets disabled and see how battery life is affected. Thanks, Daniil - the facebook widget (very strange since it's available from the beginning, someone should have noticed this bug) - something really weird introduced with PR 1.2 (no comment). Regards, -- Andrea Grandi email: a.grandi [AT] gmail [DOT] com website: http://www.andreagrandi.it PGP Key: http://www.andreagrandi.it/pgp_key.asc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers -- Andrew Flegg -- mailto:and...@bleb.org | http://www.bleb.org/ Maemo Community Council chair ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 6:09 PM, Andrew Flegg and...@bleb.org wrote: Ovi's QA (such as obvious battery drainers) will help Nokia see that crowdsourced QA can be better than their in-house stuff (though our 10 day process is apparently a bit longer than theirs). I think that we better sacrifice time-to-delivery than sacrifice the user experience. And yes, I think that OVI could use some more help by crowd source, there's the champions. I'm sure we could use them to get better coverage and at least some more widespread usage of an OVI app before it is published, as is done with other interesting new revamps with OVI. I as a champion would be delighted to give feedback and do proactive testing of new apps on the OVI store before they are released to the wild, once asked to through the FN contact. Sivan ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
Hi, On 29 May 2010 19:02, Ian v...@riseup.net wrote: Hi I went to sleep at 3:00, I wake up few minutes ago with the N900 powered off. There was not any active connection when I went to sleep, so could anyone please explain me WHO drained my whole battery?! Bluetooth? I'd check that I never use it -- Andrea Grandi email: a.grandi [AT] gmail [DOT] com website: http://www.andreagrandi.it PGP Key: http://www.andreagrandi.it/pgp_key.asc ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
On 29 May 2010 10:03, Andrea Grandi a.gra...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On 29 May 2010 19:02, Ian v...@riseup.net wrote: Hi I went to sleep at 3:00, I wake up few minutes ago with the N900 powered off. There was not any active connection when I went to sleep, so could anyone please explain me WHO drained my whole battery?! Bluetooth? I'd check that I never use it Is this a freshly flashed N900? Or did you restore from a backup? I had mine died yesterday in half a day because a process (I think intellisync or something like that) was stuck somehow somewhere. I have mine from a restored backup. Sure I wanted it to be stable after a restore, but sometimes old config files/settings/whatever cause unexpected (quite impossible to catch in testing) behaviors. -- anidel ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
Doesn't the userland carry some sort of process monitoring, killing malignant processes ? If not, we should develop something like this for MeeGo. Sivan On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Aniello Del Sorbo ani...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2010 10:03, Andrea Grandi a.gra...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On 29 May 2010 19:02, Ian v...@riseup.net wrote: Hi I went to sleep at 3:00, I wake up few minutes ago with the N900 powered off. There was not any active connection when I went to sleep, so could anyone please explain me WHO drained my whole battery?! Bluetooth? I'd check that I never use it Is this a freshly flashed N900? Or did you restore from a backup? I had mine died yesterday in half a day because a process (I think intellisync or something like that) was stuck somehow somewhere. I have mine from a restored backup. Sure I wanted it to be stable after a restore, but sometimes old config files/settings/whatever cause unexpected (quite impossible to catch in testing) behaviors. -- anidel ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
Re: Quality assurance of stable software: my battery drained in few hours
Actually, I would think the kernel should already do something like that... On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:48 PM, Sivan Greenberg si...@omniqueue.com wrote: Doesn't the userland carry some sort of process monitoring, killing malignant processes ? If not, we should develop something like this for MeeGo. Sivan On Sat, May 29, 2010 at 10:44 PM, Aniello Del Sorbo ani...@gmail.com wrote: On 29 May 2010 10:03, Andrea Grandi a.gra...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On 29 May 2010 19:02, Ian v...@riseup.net wrote: Hi I went to sleep at 3:00, I wake up few minutes ago with the N900 powered off. There was not any active connection when I went to sleep, so could anyone please explain me WHO drained my whole battery?! Bluetooth? I'd check that I never use it Is this a freshly flashed N900? Or did you restore from a backup? I had mine died yesterday in half a day because a process (I think intellisync or something like that) was stuck somehow somewhere. I have mine from a restored backup. Sure I wanted it to be stable after a restore, but sometimes old config files/settings/whatever cause unexpected (quite impossible to catch in testing) behaviors. -- anidel ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers ___ maemo-developers mailing list maemo-developers@maemo.org https://lists.maemo.org/mailman/listinfo/maemo-developers
