Re: [Mailman-Users] query re message has implicit destination (devils advocate!)
At 9:06 AM +0200 2006-08-31, Bretton Vine wrote: Well a lot has been generated in this discussion already, now it's just a case of summarising it and having someone edit. I like writing, and would happily contribute but I can drag on a bit so need a good editor :-P Yeah, I have that problem too. That's why what was supposed to be a one-off article on spam-fighting for the LOPSA.org website has turned into a six-part series. I put in everything I could think of, and it was just too damn bloody long to make a single post. There wasn't a very solid connection between the source, the documentation and patches. Lots of information, but no index (metaphorically). Lots of pointers and usefool tools for searching, but no real start here to do it differently to the default approach. The problem is that we have our suggested method for handling virtual domains, but we cannot possibly know all the different other methods that might be out there that people might want to use, and how they might want to apply (or mis-apply) those methods to Mailman. So, it's kind of hard for us to develop a guide to answer all those possible questions. We can tell you how it is done in the current code, and we can give you pointers to alternative methods, but I don't see how we can realistically be expected to go beyond that. I understand Mailman is superior to Majordomo in this respect, or is this configuration dependant? I think that Mailman is at least somewhat more resistant to mail loops, but all bets are off when messages are passing through gateways from Internet e-mail to proprietary internal e-mail systems, and then possibly going back out again. Most gateway systems like that will strip off all the ugly additional header information that we need in order to be able to do our job of trying to avoid loops, etc No disagreement. But safeguards are merely insurance when you have proper education in how to use tools no? As opposed to a necessity due to gaps in the knowledge chain. (i.e. the safety line is not intended to be used as a hand rail) No, the safety line is not intended to be used as a hand rail, but if you're installing something without any prior specific knowledge of the groups that will be using it, but you might have a reasonable expectation that some of them might use whatever you install as a handrail regardless of whether or not you intended for them to do that, then what do you choose to install? Do you install a safety line and hope that all the users are going to be smart enough to not attempt to use it as a handrail? Or do you go ahead and install a handrail under the assumption that some users are going to be stupid/ignorant enough to use it as a handrail regardless, despite all possible warning signs that you might put up? If you know you have some users that would prefer not to have a safety line or handrail at all, and others who would need the handrail, what do you install? IMO, the only sane choice is to go ahead and install a handrail by default, but make it easy for the people operating the ride to easily switch out for a safety line or nothing at all, depending on their increased knowledge of their userbase. Actually, if you're in an environment with lots of people interaction, showing them a short-cut is like a good dead of the day, and in terms of user-interface spreads nicely. Trouble is all the arcane knowledge is locked up in the heads of people who spend more time in front of a pc than people :-) No good dead ever goes unpunished. ;) Ok, sounds fair. I'm a customer. I want to understand why things are done a certain way. I want to know why they're no done differently, and I'll be stubborn and even try it myself until it stops working. Which gets us back to the answer that the default is safer this way, and if you want to change it then you are given the option of doing so. If you want to further beat your head against that brick wall, you're welcome to do so. Just keep in mind that insanity is defined as doing the same action repeatedly while expecting different results. I'm not about to embark on learning Python just to understand Mailman (although it would be a useful exercise in a broader sense) but I do wish documentation had the same level of diligence and peer-review that the code gets (not specifically mailman -- software in general) In this case, there's not much to improve with regards to the documentation. There's just not much to document. There are lots of other areas where the documentation is known to be horribly weak, nonexistent, or wrong, and we would welcome any assistance from anyone who wants to help us fix that. But this is not one of those areas. I can point my users to documentation and URLs but I can't make them read :-) No, but you should be able to read, and if they are not able to do so
Re: [Mailman-Users] query re message has implicit destination (devils advocate!)
Brad Knowles writes: At 2:07 AM +0200 2006-08-31, Bretton Vine wrote: (locally) it's been referred to as a be strict in what you send, relaxed in what you receive approach but not everyone adheres to (or is aware of) this way of looking at things and it seems antiquated to some. It's called the Postel Principle, and some of us are old enough to remember when the term was first coined. While there are cases where it is not always appropriate to apply the Postel Principle, there are still plenty of us around that firmly believe that using safe defaults is a better way to go. IMHO, it's the *same way to go.* AIUI (I seem to be missing a post or two) Mailman accepted the mail, Mailman did not drop it on the floor, Mailman *could* have sent it---but the Postel Principle doesn't imply that it should have done so. We have good reason (by default, which default doesn't apply to Bretton's shop, it seems) to believe that that post should be looked at (strictly ;-) by a human before sending. Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
[Mailman-Users] Need install help
Need professional help finishing the installation of Mailman on my Fedora Core 5 server. I have completed the install steps up to chapter 6 with no errors. Also have Postfix installed and working. -- Rob Robson Chillicothe, Ohio PGP (See Headers) http://www.rob-robson.com -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] working on an insanely huge moderation requestlist
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: cd to Mailman's home, run bin/show_qfiles dir_of_queue_in_question/* Actually, in this case it would be bin/show_qfiles data/heldmsg* -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] query re message has implicit destination
Bretton Vine wrote: Mark Sapiro said the following on 2006/08/31 02:55 AM: Do you have an actual message? Yes Where did this message come from? A list-member, cc'd to non-list member (subsequently subbed) It occurred to me that if the list has archives, the raw message as sent to the list members will be in archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox. This message will not be the exact message received by Mailman and held for implict destination because Mailman does manipulate headers a bit, but as long as the list is not fully personalized, the To: and Cc: headers should be intact. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] working on an insanely huge moderation requestlist
At 8:25 AM -0700 2006-08-31, Mark Sapiro quoted [EMAIL PROTECTED]: cd to Mailman's home, run bin/show_qfiles dir_of_queue_in_question/* Actually, in this case it would be bin/show_qfiles data/heldmsg* To be pedantic, if the moderation queue is that large, then wildcard expansion on the command-line is not likely to work correctly. Therefore, you'd need to use a find piped to xargs in order to make sure that you can fully process all the appropriate files in question. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA. See http://www.lopsa.org/. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
[Mailman-Users] Mailman Additional Tables
Is there a way to add additional fields for the subscribers? I would like to also have the subscribers include their address and phone numbers. Is there a way to add these fields? -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] query re message has implicit destination(devils advocate!)
John W. Baxter said the following on 2006/08/31 06:58 PM: And, unfortunately, were I preparing a list of options for a You really ought to look at these options and check that they are set appropriately paragraph, I probably wouldn't include this one. There are so many which are more important for such a thing. Perhaps a list of you /really/ should set these settings to X would be useful to people short on time :-) Of course you could just bundle the product that way in the first place but where's the fun in that? -- | Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc | I think that's how Chicago got started. A bunch of people in New York said, 'Gee, I'm enjoying the crime and the poverty, but it just isn't cold enough. Let's go west.' - Richard Jeni -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
[Mailman-Users] View Subscriber list format
Hello, Currently View subscribers list displays members in the following format: first.last at my.domain.com Is it possible to change the format to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks Tom -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] query re message has implicit destination(devils advocate!)
Bretton Vine sent the message below at 10:08 8/31/2006: John W. Baxter said the following on 2006/08/31 06:58 PM: And, unfortunately, were I preparing a list of options for a You really ought to look at these options and check that they are set appropriately paragraph, I probably wouldn't include this one. There are so many which are more important for such a thing. Perhaps a list of you /really/ should set these settings to X would be useful to people short on time :-) Of course you could just bundle the product that way in the first place but where's the fun in that? End original message. - That is what the Defaults.py file is for. The defaults as shipped were chosen by the developers. We should assume that they were chosen for good, logical reasons that apply to the majority of installations. But if you don't like the defaults or have a reason to choose a different setting, you can change them at your own risk either through configuring each list or by overriding the setting in mm_cfg.py Open source projects are never going to have documentation to the standard you want. Unless you or somebody else is willing to take on that large project, continuing to harp on the subject is only going to serve to annoy people. The fact that this software is made available to the community free of charge is a gift to the community. The fact that people like Brad and Mark and others are willing to expend large amounts of their time responding to queries here should be taken as what it is, another gift to the community. I think they have gone above and beyond the call of duty in this discussion and I am amazed at the restraint they have shown. Dragon ~~~ Venimus, Saltavimus, Bibimus (et naribus canium capti sumus) ~~~ -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] query re message has implicit destination(devils advocate!)
--On August 31, 2006 7:08:22 PM +0200 Bretton Vine [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps a list of you /really/ should set these settings to X would be useful to people short on time :-) Of course you could just bundle the product that way in the first place but where's the fun in that? To which I reply: Could we maybe leave this poor dead horse to rest in peace? Apparently, many of the posters to this list believe (with some justification, imho) that it should take explicit action to undo safe defaults, rather than requiring explicit action to set safe values. You disagree. You've made that abundantly clear. Fine. We believe that you disagree. But based on my (rather more than I care to contemplate) years in this business, I think you're wrong. -- Steve Burlingmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] University of Michigan, ICPSRVoice: +1 734 615.3779 330 Packard Street FAX: +1 734 647.8700 Ann Arbor, MI 48104-2910 -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] query re message has implicit destination(devils advocate!)
Dragon said the following on 2006/08/31 07:44 PM: But if you don't like the defaults or have a reason to choose a different setting, you can change them at your own risk either through configuring each list or by overriding the setting in mm_cfg.py I'm not criticising, and I'm more than willing to put in some effort. What useful settings apply? The default 'legacy' antispam measures are merely an example (for example). Open source projects are never going to have documentation to the standard you want. Unless you or somebody else is willing to take on that large project, continuing to harp on the subject is only going to serve to annoy people. That's the trouble with email - tone is lost, along with intention ;-) I think they have gone above and beyond the call of duty in this discussion and I am amazed at the restraint they have shown. The teacher learns more from the student than the student learns from the teacher. It would be wise not to forget that. big grin -- | Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc | It is important that students bring a certain ragamuffin, barefoot, irreverence to their studies; they are not here to worship what is known, but to question it. - Jacob Chanowski -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] query re message has implicit destination(devils advocate!)
Dragon said the following on 2006/08/31 07:44 PM: The fact that people like Brad and Mark and others are willing to expend large amounts of their time responding to queries here should be taken as what it is, another gift to the community. I think they have gone above and beyond the call of duty in this discussion and I am amazed at the restraint they have shown. (on a more serious note) I view it differently. I have had great feedback and I highly doubt either of the parties mentioned viewed a response as a restraining, difficult exercise. I /really/ use lists to their full advantage and with some in particular have never felt my input or response was an exercise in patience or restraint. It's a labour of love. You do it because it's what you do. That's not to say I don't appreciate a response (some time after the fact) with another avenue to explore (thanks Mark) but compare the difference between you're harping on about nothing to have you tried this?. The latter (in hindsight) is blindingly obvious -- and yet no-one else let their sub-conscious ponder the problem a while longer. Lists are communities. And community isn't about 'gifts' from the elders or sticking to sensible rules. It's about invigorating the elders so they feel like children in a toy-store again. (and no I'm not being ageist or condescending or merely rebellious here) -- | Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc | This is a test designed to provoke an emotional response: The water supply IS tainted -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] query re message has implicit destination(devils advocate!)
Steve Burling said the following on 2006/08/31 07:55 PM: Could we maybe leave this poor dead horse to rest in peace? Only if I get a last word in edgewise :-) Apparently, many of the posters to this list believe (with some justification, imho) that it should take explicit action to undo safe defaults, rather than requiring explicit action to set safe values. You disagree. You've made that abundantly clear. Fine. We believe that you disagree. Then you've misunderstood me. I don't disagree, and since turning the setting off have seen an immediate *and* significant increase in the amount of spam getting to open lists which answers a question I raised earlier. The point I was illustrating is that if you have to justify the rationale behind a default setting to a third-party-decision-maker -- what is the most appropriate and concise response? But based on my (rather more than I care to contemplate) years in this business, I think you're wrong. I may well be. However I dispute the reasoning that things are done a certain way 'just because that's the way they're done'. This thread has resulted in far more knowledge than I need convey on to my boss/clients, but it has been immensely useful too. Both in terms of my learning, and proposing alternate perspectives. Just because I present a point-of-view doesn't mean I agree with it. Nor does it invalidate it. I've heard arguments from developers critical of third parties modifying the software in a particular way and then failing to support it accordingly. I've heard arguments that the developers know what's best. I've questioned whether these approaches are based on developer-need, user-input or pure reasoning. I don't believe I've done anything a curious individual could be faulted for, nor do I see any evidence that people willing to take a moment's pause for a reasoned response reacting uncomfortably or being unwilling to share their experience or philosophy-of-approach. In closing, I needed a simple answer. I couldn't find one myself, so I asked. In return I learned far more than I requested, and developed an immediate respect for those who understood where I was coming from. In time perhaps those who endured irritation will understand. :-) -- | Bretton Vine | 083 633 8475 | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | GPG: http://bretton.hivemind.net/bretton_vine.asc | All progress is based upon a universal innate desire on the part of every organism to live beyond its income. — Samuel Butler (1835-1902),British writer. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] View Subscriber list format
That workes! Thanks folks. On 8/31/06, Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom Kavanaugh wrote: Currently View subscribers list displays members in the following format: first.last at my.domain.com Is it possible to change the format to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] in the list admin intervace set Privacy options...-Subscription rules-obscure_addresses to No. This will display the email address with '@' instead of ' at '. The 'local part' of the address will be unchanged. If it is of form first.last, it will be shown that way, but if it is of some other form, it will be shown as whatever it is. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
[Mailman-Users] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
Hello,
I installed and configured mailman on Debian Sarge running apache2 and exim4.
I set up a list and the list adminstrator / owner can post to the list from a
remote client. I am pretty sure that the mailman config is right and that
there is a problem with the exim4 config. Non local subscribers cannot post
to the list. The Exim4 log always says that relay is not permitted.
/var/log/exim4/mainlog:
2006-09-01 00:00:52 H=mailout01.sul.t-online.com [194.25.134.80]
F=[EMAIL PROTECTED] rejected RCPT [EMAIL PROTECTED]: relay
not permitted
Here are parts of my exim4 config:
[..]
# On Debian systems, the main binary is installed as exim4 to avoid
# conflicts with the exim 3 packages.
exim_path = /usr/sbin/exim4
# Macro defining the main configuration directory.
# We do not use absolute paths.
.ifndef CONFDIR
CONFDIR = /etc/exim4
.endif
# This sets a macro DC_minimaldns if dc_minimaldns=true. If
# dc_minimaldns=false, this expands to an empty line.
.ifndef DC_minimaldns
DEBCONFminimaldnsDEBCONF
.endif
# Create other macros from Debconf. Macros created here are used in
# other places in exim config.
.ifndef DC_visiblename
DC_visiblename=DEBCONFvisiblenameDEBCONF
.endif
# Create domain and host lists for relay control
# '@' refers to 'the name of the local host'
.ifndef MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS
MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS = DEBCONFlocal_domainsDEBCONF
.endif
domainlist local_domains = MAIN_LOCAL_DOMAINS
.ifndef MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS
MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS = DEBCONFrelay_domainsDEBCONF
.endif
domainlist relay_to_domains = MAIN_RELAY_TO_DOMAINS
.ifndef MAIN_RELAY_NETS
MAIN_RELAY_NETS = DEBCONFrelay_netsDEBCONF
.endif
hostlist relay_from_hosts = 127.0.0.1 : 1 : MAIN_RELAY_NETS
# Specify the domain you want to be added to all unqualified addresses
# here. Unqualified addresses are accepted only from local callers by
# default. The recipient_unqualified_hosts option can be used to permit
# unqualified addresses from remote sources.
# If qualify_domain is not set, the primary_hostname value is used for
# qualification.
# The ifdef bracket makes sure that an empty debconf value is correctly
# translated to unset.
.ifdef DC_visiblename
qualify_domain = DC_visiblename
.endif
[..]
# Home dir for your Mailman installation -- aka Mailman's prefix
# directory.
# By default this is set to /usr/local/mailman
# On a Red Hat/Fedora system using the RPM use /var/mailman
# On Debian using the deb package use /var/lib/mailman
# This is normally the same as ~mailman
MAILMAN_HOME=/var/lib/mailman
#
# User and group for Mailman, should match your --with-mail-gid
# switch to Mailman's configure script.
# Value is normally mailman
MAILMAN_USER=list
MAILMAN_GROUP=daemon
#
# Domains that your lists are in - colon separated list
# you may wish to add these into local_domains as well
domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS=news.server.windfinder.com
#
# -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
#
# These values are derived from the ones above and should not need
# editing unless you have munged your mailman installation
#
# The path of the Mailman mail wrapper script
MAILMAN_WRAP=MAILMAN_HOME/mail/mailman
#
# The path of the list config file (used as a required file when
# verifying list addresses)
MAILMAN_LISTCHK=MAILMAN_HOME/lists/${lc::$local_part}/config.pck
[..]
begin routers
mailman_router:
driver = accept
require_files = MAILMAN_HOME/lists/$local_part/config.pck
local_part_suffix_optional
local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \
-confirm+* : -join : -leave : \
-owner : -request : -admin
transport = mailman_transport
[..]
begin transports
mailman_transport:
driver = pipe
command = MAILMAN_WRAP \
'${if def:local_part_suffix \
{${sg{$local_part_suffix}{-(\\w+)(\\+.*)?}{\$1}}} \
{post}}' \
$local_part
current_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
home_directory = MAILMAN_HOME
user = MAILMAN_USER
group = MAILMAN_GROUP
Any idea how to configure Exim4 to allow posting to mailing list for
subscribers like [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
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http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] View Subscriber list format
Is there a way to incorporate this change across all exisitng mail lists? I looked at commands in mailman/bin but did not find any command that could do this for me. Or, am I missing something? Later, Tom On 8/31/06, Tom Kavanaugh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That workes! Thanks folks. On 8/31/06, Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tom Kavanaugh wrote: Currently View subscribers list displays members in the following format: first.last at my.domain.com Is it possible to change the format to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] in the list admin intervace set Privacy options...-Subscription rules-obscure_addresses to No. This will display the email address with '@' instead of ' at '. The 'local part' of the address will be unchanged. If it is of form first.last, it will be shown that way, but if it is of some other form, it will be shown as whatever it is. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman with exim4 on Debian Sarge
Oliver König wrote: I am pretty sure that the mailman config is right and that there is a problem with the exim4 config. Non local subscribers cannot post to the list. The Exim4 log always says that relay is not permitted. Yes, that would be an Exim config problem. Here are parts of my exim4 config: snip # Domains that your lists are in - colon separated list # you may wish to add these into local_domains as well domainlist MAILMAN_DOMAINS=news.server.windfinder.com And what about server.windfinder.com? And did you add it to local_domains? snip mailman_router: driver = accept require_files = MAILMAN_HOME/lists/$local_part/config.pck local_part_suffix_optional local_part_suffix = -bounces : -bounces+* : \ -confirm+* : -join : -leave : \ -owner : -request : -admin transport = mailman_transport The above is incomplete. It is not the cause of your problem, but see http://www.exim.org/howto/mailman21.html#roconf for what the mailman_router: should be. In particular, the above is missing -confirm, -subscribe and -unsubscribe in local_part_suffix and is missing domains = +MAILMAN_DOMAINS to prevent mail to an address that looks like a list but in another domain from being delivered to the list. -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] View Subscriber list format
Tom Kavanaugh wrote: Is there a way to incorporate this change across all exisitng mail lists? I looked at commands in mailman/bin but did not find any command that could do this for me. Or, am I missing something? First, you want to put DEFAULT_OBSCURE_ADDRESSES = No in mm_cfg.py so new lists will be created with obscure_address = No. Then you have two choices for existing lists, bin/withlist and bin/config_list. config_list is easier to describe so, put the following 1 line in a file obscure_addresses = 0 and run a shell script like #!/bin/sh for list in `bin/list_lists --bare` do bin/config_list -i file $list done -- Mark Sapiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] The highway is for gamblers, San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] query re message has implicit destination(devils advocate!)
At 10:06 AM -0700 2006-08-31, John W. Baxter quoted Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED]: We're not a commercial environment, and we've actually had pretty bad experiences with people/companies that are in commercial environments taking our software and making unapproved modifications to it, or providing the software to their customers but *not* providing adequate support to those customers. unapproved may be a bit strong. Perhaps un-vetted would be closer? Actually, I think either unapproved or unauthorized are the most appropriate terms. After all, the code is released under the GPL, and anyone who is making modifications to that code and then making their modified version available to their customers (or otherwise benefiting from those modifications) are supposed to contribute the source to their changes back to the community. But CPanel has not done this, neither has Plesk, nor Apple. Now, in a way, Apple gives back to the project more than they probably realize, but that's not the same thing. So, while we don't make that big a deal of this issue, I think I'm actually being reasonably lenient on these companies. I just recently wrote a FAQ entry on this subject -- see FAQ 1.32. Quite nicely done! Thanks! -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA. See http://www.lopsa.org/. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] query re message has implicit destination(devils advocate!)
At 8:44 PM +0200 2006-08-31, Bretton Vine wrote: The point I was illustrating is that if you have to justify the rationale behind a default setting to a third-party-decision-maker -- what is the most appropriate and concise response? This is the key point that was not coming across to me, at least not until much later in the exchange. Speaking only for myself, I seriously misunderstood what you were asking and why, which greatly colored my responses. I'm still not certain that we've given you the best answer to this question, but I'm hoping that you'll be able to synthesize something that you will then be able to contribute back to the community, and we will hopefully be able to avoid these kinds of problems in the future -- at least with respect to this one particular issue. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA. See http://www.lopsa.org/. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] query re message has implicit destination(devils advocate!)
At 8:25 PM +0200 2006-08-31, Bretton Vine wrote: I view it differently. I have had great feedback and I highly doubt either of the parties mentioned viewed a response as a restraining, difficult exercise. I /really/ use lists to their full advantage and with some in particular have never felt my input or response was an exercise in patience or restraint. It's a labour of love. You do it because it's what you do. Maybe I'm getting better at this process than I have been in the past, but I most definitely held back quite a bit in my responses. I did allow myself to get a bit testy, but that's about it. It took me a while to realize that you were more playing devil's advocate (on behalf of your boss) as opposed to actually believing in some of the things you were saying. And yes, a great deal of context is lost in e-mail. Remember that about 90% of all human communication is not verbalized, and of the remainder about 90% is more in the tone of how you respond as opposed to the actual words that are chosen. Pretty much all of that is lost in e-mail, leaving only the words -- and about 1% of what would normally be conveyed in a natural human conversation. That's not to say I don't appreciate a response (some time after the fact) with another avenue to explore (thanks Mark) but compare the difference between you're harping on about nothing to have you tried this?. The latter (in hindsight) is blindingly obvious -- and yet no-one else let their sub-conscious ponder the problem a while longer. A lot of my responses were defensive in nature, responding to the way I felt that our entire community was being attacked, and I took that pretty personally. As such, there really wasn't any time available for me to ponder the question in any more depth. If I'd had that time, I might have been able to find a better way to convey what it was I was trying to get across. Now, I may have managed to moderate my response quite a bit, but that doesn't change the fundamental nature of the situation as it occurred. Lists are communities. And community isn't about 'gifts' from the elders or sticking to sensible rules. It's about invigorating the elders so they feel like children in a toy-store again. It should be about enabling people to contribute something and allow them to feel useful, in whatever way that they find that they are best able to do. We don't always succeed in that goal, however. But as we work towards that goal, we should find that when everyone helps everyone else, we all benefit from the combined strength, and the result is much greater than the sum of its parts. The big problem comes when a new person comes in, or a new situation occurs, and one or more members of the community feels like they are being attacked, and how they respond. The result can either strengthen the enlarged community, or be extremely destructive. -- Brad Knowles, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. -- Benjamin Franklin (1706-1790), reply of the Pennsylvania Assembly to the Governor, November 11, 1755 Founding Individual Sponsor of LOPSA. See http://www.lopsa.org/. -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
Re: [Mailman-Users] query re message has implicit destination(devils advocate!)
Brad Knowles writes: At 10:06 AM -0700 2006-08-31, John W. Baxter quoted Brad Knowles [EMAIL PROTECTED]: We're not a commercial environment, and we've actually had pretty bad experiences with people/companies that are in commercial environments taking our software and making unapproved modifications to it, or providing the software to their customers but *not* providing adequate support to those customers. unapproved may be a bit strong. Perhaps un-vetted would be closer? Actually, I think either unapproved or unauthorized are the most appropriate terms. After all, the code is released under the GPL, Excuse me? The GPL *explicitly* approves and authorizes (not to mention implicitly encourages) modification and redistribution without conditions other than providing source. That's exactly what license means. Has anybody at Mailman asked CPanel, Plesk, or Apple for source and been refused? Or one of their customers, and been refused because they were under NDA? If we haven't asked, how can we bitch? and anyone who is making modifications to that code and then making their modified version available to their customers (or otherwise benefiting from those modifications) are supposed to contribute the source to their changes back to the community. But CPanel has not done this, neither has Plesk, nor Apple. C'mon, Brad, you know what the GPL actually says. They're supposed to give the source to their customers. That's all it says. It is quite possible to write a license that says you *must* give your modifications back to some entity. You could argue that the reason the GPL doesn't do that is that the community is the only appropriate beneficiary, but it's impossible to legally define the community in a satisfactory way. But I don't think that's what Richard Stallman has in mind when he declares licenses containing such clauses unfree. Nor do they satisfy the DFSG or the OSD. I believe it's that the whole idea of demanding payment of any kind is unfree. So, while we don't make that big a deal of this issue, I think I'm actually being reasonably lenient on these companies. I would say we're not trying to accomplish by jawbone what we refuse to put in the license. And that's very important to me. It's one of the things I like best about this community. Of course you're certainly welcome to consider that you're being lenient; I'm simply explaining that I very much appreciate your lenience, but I rationalize it differently. Once again, has anybody simply *asked* these companies for their code, and maybe for some contribution of labor toward integrating it? If so, how recently? I realize that we probably dislike some of their changes, so they wouldn't make it into the mainline (at least not as defaults), but it could exist on more or less deprecated branches. Surely there are CPanel- or Plesk-using ISPs who would like to have Mailman project support available to their customers; we should be able to get moral, if not financial, support from them. Sincere regards, Steve -- Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users Mailman FAQ: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/ Unsubscribe: http://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-users/archive%40jab.org Security Policy: http://www.python.org/cgi-bin/faqw-mm.py?req=showamp;file=faq01.027.htp
