[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Barry Warsaw]

I admit I haven’t been following this thread very closely, and don’t intend to 
do so.  (There’s a reason I turned over project management a few years ago :).

Just a couple of points.

> On Sep 15, 2020, at 18:11, Brian Carpenter  wrote:
> 
> When you say py3, are you talking about python 3? Are you trying to make mm2 
> python 3 compatible?

I think that will be pretty challenging actually.  At least, it was when I did 
it years ago.  And unless you’re *really* careful to avoid the temptation to 
“fix" things along the way, you’ll probably end up with something not too far 
away from Mailman 3. ;)   But hey, it’ll definitely be fun.

The only other point to make is to remember that Mailman is “GNU Mailman”.  2 
or 3, it’s still a GNU project, which means more than just being covered under 
some flavor of the GPL.  Just saying that if responsibility for MM2 is 
transferred, you’ll need to coordinate with the GNU project.

Cheers, and good luck!
-Barry




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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM3 book in the works

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jan 13, 2018, at 09:38, Rich Kulawiec  wrote:

> I've been working on a book about mailing list management and usage --
> including MTAs, MLMs (such as Mailman), processes, best practices, etc.
> The MM material to this point has been MM2-centric, but I've been running
> various instances of MM3 and accumulating experience with it.
> 
> This is intended -- somewhat -- as a modern version of "Managing
> Mailing Lists" by Schwartz, which is now 20 years old.  Obviously
> the landscape has changed quite a bit since then; I don't think
> we need to worry much about UUCP-style addresses any more, but we
> do need to worry about DMARC.  And so on.
> 
> I can't see leaving out MM2 at this point, because a LOT of people are
> running and are going to be running it for years.  But it would seem
> a disservice not to cover MM3.  So I suspect, at the risk of some
> duplication, both with have to make the cut.

Very cool, Rich.  And I think you’ve got exactly the right focus.  Best of luck 
and do let us know when you’ve got something you need reviewed, or if you have 
any questions at all (esp. regarding MM3).

-Barry



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[Mailman-Users] Time Stand Still

[Barry Warsaw]

Somewhen in the dark recesses of intarweb history, I found myself as the 
project leader for both Jython (née JPython) and GNU Mailman.  I'd been 
involved with Jython since it was invented by Jim Hugunin around the time he 
came to work with us at Pythonlabs.  I'd been contributing to Mailman since we 
inherited John Viega's Python-based Dave Matthews Band list server, and put it 
to use replacing python.org's Majordomo installation.

I'd enjoyed both projects, but knew I could not lead both, so I had to make a 
choice.  I chose to turn over Jython to a team that's done a much better job 
over the years than I ever could have.  Something about email, and especially 
the communication and collaboration patterns that it facilitates, really 
fascinated me.  I know, I know, but we all have our lapses of sanity.  Mine has 
lasted almost 20 years, a bit more than "momentary" perhaps.

I've rarely gotten paid to work on Mailman, but it did provide me some great 
opportunities.  Most notably it led to my 10 year stint at Canonical.  I was 
originally hired on there to integrate mailing lists with Launchpad, and 
Mailman was the obvious choice.  I learned a ton doing that project, and 
working within the constraints of integrating the two Python-based systems, 
especially since Launchpad was originally not free software and Mailman was 
GPL'd.  Later, the Zope-based Launchpad source code was released under the 
AGPL, making much of the monkeypatching unnecessary, but by then the system was 
solid and reliable, and you don't fix what's not broken.

Except, I guess I did.  I took a lot of the lessons from that work, along with 
a good hard look at all the problems with Mailman 2, and began to break another 
cardinal rule of software development: second system syndrome.  The result is 
Mailman 3.  It took forever, and we're still not at complete feature parity 
with Mailman 2, but at least it's Real Enough to be used at many Real Sites, 
including python.org and lists.fedoraprojects.org.

It would be ridiculous for me to take significant credit for this.  I have to 
acknowledge the amazing user community -- you! -- for all the support, patches, 
suggestions, feedback, patience, criticism, donations, and contributions that 
you've given to the project, and to me personally over the years.  And my 
deepest gratitude goes to all the core developers that have stayed or come and 
gone, but most especially the current Cabal: Abhilash Raj, Aurelien Bompard, 
Florian Fuchs, Mark Sapiro, Stephen J. Turnbull, Terri Oda. You should know 
that each and every one of them is truly awesome, both in what they contribute 
technically, and in their amazing friendships.  Mailman is infinitely better 
because of their involvement, and I've loved spending time with them over the 
years at the Pycon sprints, making releases and sharing teas and meals.

My blog is called We Fear Change, and that's humorously taken from a 90's bit 
in Mike Myer's excellent Wayne's World movie (a phrase actually uttered by the 
brilliant Dana Carvey as Garth).  The irony of course is that while we all may 
fear change, it's the one constant thing we can count on.  And in fact, we 
*require* change to thrive, because if you aren't changing, you aren't alive. 
Time, and being engaged with life's vagaries, means there's no alternative to 
change; it must be embraced.

And so, with a vague reference to the many (good!) changes in my personal and 
professional life, I'm announcing that I'm stepping down from the project 
leadership role of GNU Mailman, effective... nowish!  And it's with unanimous 
agreement among the GNU Mailman Steering Committee (a.k.a. the Mailman Cabal), 
that we are announcing Abhilash Raj as the new project leader.

If you don't recognize Abhilash's name, you probably aren't paying attention, 
at least to Mailman 3.  Abhilash came to us in 2013 as a Google Summer of Code 
student, and he's become one of the project's most valuable contributors.  His 
list of accomplishments is long, and it includes everything from redesigning 
the website, to integrating CI with our GitLab build system, porting our code 
to the SQLAlchemy ORM, adding MySQL support, revving up adoption through his 
Docker images, along with his great coding work on Core, Postorius, HyperKitty, 
and mailmanclient.

This transition is good for the project too.  Email, its defining protocols and 
standards, and its role in our daily lives, has changed profoundly since the 
early days of Mailman.  A fresh perspective and enthusiasm will help keep 
Mailman relevant to the changing ways we -- especially the FLOSS and tech 
communities -- communicate.

Please join me in supporting Abhilash in every way possible as he takes over in 
this new role as project leader.  I'll be here when and if needed, even as I 
create space in my "spare" time for... Something Else.  I look forward to the 
vision that Abhilash will bring to the project, and I know that he will do a 
great job.  To 

Re: [Mailman-Users] Django

[Barry Warsaw]

On Oct 3, 2017, at 07:41, Ruben Safir  wrote:
> 
> I'm not sure why you decided to add Django as a dependency of Mailman
> but it is a losey idea to add an additional entire operational
> development platform in order to just get a mailing list up and running.

You must be talking about Mailman 3, where the web ui and archiver are 
implemented as Django applications.

Please note that neither Postorius (web ui) nor HyperKitty (archiver) are 
*required* components so if you don’t like them, you don’t need to deploy them. 
 Core is the only required piece and if you’re comfortable to write your own 
clients against Core’s REST API, you can do so using whatever technology you 
want, since it’s just HTTP+JSON.  You can augment the functionality currently 
available via REST with shell access.

Cheers,
-Barry



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Authenticated Received Chain in Mailman?

[Barry Warsaw]

On May 30, 2017, at 08:05 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>Steve will probably have more to say on this, but we had a GSOC project last
>year on this and there is a Mailman 3 branch at
> that is a work in
>progress on ARC.

Steve did briefly mention at Pycon that ARC was getting turned on at various
large providers.  I'd like to target ARC support for Mailman 3.2.

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] ANNOUNCE: Mailman 3.1.0 final!

[Barry Warsaw]

On May 27, 2017, at 08:35 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>If anyone is interested in helping with packaging for specific distros,
>we would love to have your help.

There was some early work on Debian packaging, which was put on hold until 3.1
was released.  Now that Stretch's release has also been announced, I think
we'll see Debian packages soon.

-Barry
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[Mailman-Users] ANNOUNCE: Mailman 3.1.0 final!

[Barry Warsaw]

Hello Mailpeople!

On behalf of the entire team and all our wonderful contributors, I'm happy to
announce the release of GNU Mailman 3.1 final.  My deep thanks go to all the
Mailman project sprinters at Pycon 2017 for getting us over the line!

Two years after the original release of Mailman 3.0, this version contains a
huge number of improvements across the entire stack.  Many bugs have been
fixed and new features added in the Core, Postorius (web u/i), and HyperKitty
(archiver).  Upgrading from Mailman 2.1 should be better too.  We are seeing
more production sites adopt Mailman 3, and we've been getting great feedback
as these have rolled out.

Important: mailman-bundler, our previous recommended way of deploying Mailman
3, has been deprecated.  Abhilash Raj is putting the finishing touches on
Docker images to deploy everything, and he'll have a further announcement in a
week or two.

Feedback is welcome:
https://github.com/maxking/docker-mailman

What is GNU Mailman?

GNU Mailman is free software for managing electronic mail discussion and
e-newsletter lists.  Mailman is integrated with the web, making it easy for
users to manage their accounts and for list owners to administer their lists.
Mailman supports built-in archiving, automatic bounce processing, content
filtering, digest delivery, and more.  Mailman 3 is released under the terms
of the GNU General Public License, version 3.

The best places to start for all things related to this release:

http://docs.mailman3.org/
http://www.list.org/
https://gitlab.com/mailman

(Note: due to timezone skew, some of the tarballs may not be available on PyPI
until tomorrow.)

Happy Mailman Day,
-Your friendly neighborhood cabal

An overview of what's new in Mailman 3.1


Feature parity with Mailman 2.1
---
* You should be able to do just about everything that you could do in Mailman
  2.1 *except* for topics and sibling/umbrella lists.

Core

* Added support for Python 3.5 and 3.6
* MySQL is now an officially supported database
* Many improvements with importing Mailman 2.1 lists
* DMARC mitigations have been added, based on, but different than the same
  feature in Mailman 2.1
* The REST API requires HTTP/1.1
* A new REST API version (3.1) has been added which changes how UUIDs are
  interpreted, fixing the problem for some JavaScript libraries
* Many new REST resources and methods have been added
* Individual mailing lists can augment the system's header matching rules
* `mailman create` now creates missing domains by default
* `mailman digests` now has `--verbose` and `--dry-run` options
* `mailman shell` now supports readline history
* `mailman members` can filter members based on their subscription roles
* A new template system has been added for all messages originating from
  inside Mailman.
* The Message-ID-Hash header replaces X-Message-ID-Hash
* New placeholders have been added for headers and footers
* Unsubscriptions can now be confirmed and/or moderated

Postorius/HyperKitty

* General U/I and U/X improvements
* Many more features from the Core's have been plumbed through
* We've adopted Django social auth logins and dropped Persona (since it's no
  longer supported upstream).  You can now log in via Facebook, Google,
  GitHub, and GitLab.

Backward incompatibilities
--
* Core/REST: Held message resources now have an `original_subject` key that is
  not RFC 2047 decoded.  `subject` is now RFC 2047 decoded.
* Core/REST: If you've run pre-release versions from git head, and stored
  welcome and goodbye templates via REST, the template key names have changed
  backward incompatibility.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Unsubscriptions after DMARC fix

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 05, 2017, at 11:36 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

>Barry encourages participation by musicians!
>
>Not official Barry-spokesman, but reasonably good at channeling :-)

Don't forget the secret bassplayer.py handler!  You email it a drum pattern
and it replybots you a funky groove in E.

-B
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2 and 3

[Barry Warsaw]

On Mar 30, 2017, at 08:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:

>Interesting.  I know there's a pretty clear division between components in 3;
>can the web interface run on a separate machine and point to a remote
>instance of Mailman?

Yep!  It's somewhat important to keep in mind that the REST API of Core is a
fully administrative API.  It can be protected by some basic auth secrets, but
nothing more than that, so just make sure that the Core REST API isn't
published on some public IP address and you should be fine.

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2 and 3

[Barry Warsaw]

On Mar 30, 2017, at 04:11 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>I'm afraid Node.js is still a requirement.

Of the web interface of course.  Technically those are optional components,
but practically speaking if you want to control Mailman 3 via the web, that's
the only option.

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 The Definitive Mailman Suite - Download error

[Barry Warsaw]

On Mar 30, 2017, at 11:29 AM, Henrik Rasmussen wrote:

>Both in the Mailman Suite Setup Guide section "Set up and run Mailman Core"
>the code is supposed to be downloaded using the command "git clone
>g...@gitlab.com:mailman/mailman.git", but I get a Permission Denied

I'll fix that to use the https URLs.

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent trouble with DMARC Munging

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jan 19, 2017, at 09:17 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

>As far as I can tell nobody in the Mailman crew has ever had a problem
>with hosting services that support their customers using cPanel.  It's
>a great idea for that!

cPanel also donated a VM for us to use in our CI process on GitLab, and we're
very grateful for that too!

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] A quick question about slicing outgoing qrunner

[Barry Warsaw]

On Sep 08, 2016, at 08:15 AM, Jim Popovitch wrote:

>> ('OutgoingRunner', 3), # outgoing messages to the smtpd (change to three
>> '3' queues)

Slices must be a power of 2.

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Hire consultant to install Mailman 3 on Dreamhost

[Barry Warsaw]

On Aug 26, 2016, at 11:53 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>Still, most users considering MM 3 would probably do best by waiting for
>the official MM 3.1 release.

Which I am hoping will happen in the latter half of September, early October.
Although HyperKitty isn't tracking milestones yet, core and Postorius are, and
here's what's left:

https://gitlab.com/dashboard/milestones/31?title=3.1

For core, all the big stuff is in except the unsub workflow, and I have a
branch in progress for that.

Cheers,
-Barry
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[Mailman-Users] Mailman 2's future (was Re: Filtering out Digest replies)

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jul 12, 2016, at 12:22 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

>It depends on how you define "end of life". Granted there will be MM 2.1
>lists in use for a very long time. There may still even be Mailman 2.0
>lists in active use.
>
>The real question is not how long there will be users, but how long will
>Mailman 2.1 be actively supported and maintained, and whether it makes
>sense for new installations to use a package with little or no further
>development in sight vs. one with an active and growing development and
>support community.

Like all FLOSS software, future development and support is highly dependent on
finding volunteers interested enough to donate their time to work on it.  It's
rare to be paid to work on FLOSS, and I can only say that *I* am not paid to
work on Mailman.

Mark is my hero, for long ago having taken over the task of maintaining
Mailman 2.1 and allowing me to concentrate on Mailman 3.  I greatly appreciate
Steve and all of you who continue to dedicate your time to help each other,
solve problems, and keep the Mailman community thriving.

I have no interest or time to devote to Mailman 2.  The code is 20 years old,
and like Python 2, I find it very hard to get motivated to wade into it.  Mark
knows way more about it than I remember at this point anyway.  I am spending
my free time trying to make Mailman 3 a compelling and stable upgrade path,
with code that's a joy to work in, an architecture that is clean, flexible,
and robust, and a universe of tools and subprojects that bring the Mailman we
love forward to modern practices, and which integrate better with all the
other outlets people have for online communication.

Just like with Python 2, Mailman 2.1 will continue to be actively and happily
used for many years to come.  If and when Mark decides to spend more time on
Mailman 3 (\o/) others in this community can rise to the challenge of
continuing to support Mailman 2.  That's what a volunteer community is all
about.

There is lots of fun stuff to do, and I call on you to find areas of interest
to get involved in.  Almost anything you *want* to do *needs* to be done, and
we developers are a nice bunch of people, so please join us!

Cheers,
-Barry


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[Mailman-Users] Command line access to Mailman 3 (was Re: Filtering out Digest replies)

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jul 12, 2016, at 04:04 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

>Thomas Gramstad writes:
>
> > There is also the issue of listadmin, the script for command line 
> > processing of list moderation requests. I'm not sure this script 
> > is being updated currently, and so probably does not work with 
> > Mailman 3(?).  
>
>I don't know if it's been integrated yet, but mailmanclient has a nice
>command interpreter that a GSoC student built for us.  Even if your
>particular use case isn't supported yet, it will be easy to do so.
>
>I think you'll also find Postorius much more efficient than the
>current web interface.  That may not be enough since you say managing
>moderation with the current interface is out of the question, but
>since moderation is an activity that needs human input, and UI changes
>(ie, use of command line) were enough to make it feasible, Postorius
>is something you should look at before deciding to stay with a product
>after end-of-line.

Mailman 3 has a very rich REST API which can control and administer the core
system.  In fact, this is exactly how Postorius and HyperKitty work, via
mailmanclient, the official Python bindings for the REST API.  Being
HTTP+JSON, you can in fact talk to Core's REST API using any language you want
(even curl for example).

However, it's also important to understand that Core's REST API is an
administrative API with full access and no authentication (other than Basic
AUTH).  It is intended to be exposed on localhost only.

It's long been discussed to create an "authenticating proxy" which could be
exposed on any public IP, and which would allow site admins, list admins,
moderators, and users to script the Core, performing any operations that their
authorization level permits.  Andrew Stuart wrote a project called mailmania
(available on GitLab) which implements one take on this.  At Pycon 2016, the
Mailman sprinters discussed how to move forward on an official proxy, taking
inspiration from mailmania.  I think we fleshed out a good approach which will
be much richer than any MM2 scripting facility, and could be one of the killer
apps for MM3 (including IMHO HyperKitty's ability to post from the web, and
Postorius's vastly better U/I).

We even have name for the project, Lemme and a project page:
https://gitlab.com/mailman/lemme/tree/master

Several of us are going to start working on this after the MM3.1 release goes
out (hopefully in the next month or so).  It will take work in the Core as
well as work on Lemme, so we invite anybody interested in helping out to join
us over in mailman-developers.

Cheers,
-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 2.1.22 release

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 18, 2016, at 08:57 AM, Jim Popovitch wrote:

>Mark, Thank You for your hard work and dedication to providing the
>worlds best mailinglist manager, it is much appreciated by many
>people.

Indeed!  Mark has my deepest gratitude for his ongoing care of Mailman 2.1.

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Start a new thread" button doesn't work - Mailman3.0.2 Panel

[Barry Warsaw]

On Mar 16, 2016, at 06:50 AM, scorpio 2005 via Mailman-Users wrote:

>Thanks for your reply. We are running mailman 3.0.2 using bundler and we are
>facing couple of issue with this version. We are stuck with this issues.  We
>are not sure which one is stable version in mailman to use it.

I suspect you will get better results running Mailman Core from the git master
branch.  While I am backporting fixes to the 3.0.x branch and releasing that
semi-regularly (e.g. 3.0.2) all new development, including the addition of new
features previously missing, happen only on master.  I expect that we'll
release 3.1 by Pycon 2016.

I know that bundler provides 3.0.2 right now, but it shouldn't be too
difficult to switch.  The few folks I know running Mailman 3 in production are
running Core off the git master branch.

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 list description - non-ASCII characters?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Feb 24, 2016, at 02:51 PM, Igor Maly wrote:

>I'd like to use non-ASCII characters  in list description.
>To keep it simple, let's assume I want the list description to be single
>character "á" (Unicode: \u00e1, UTF-8: C3 A1).
>I can enter such a description in list identity page
>(http://MYHOST:8000/mailman3/lists/MYLIST/settings/list_identity, field
>Description).
>After hitting Save changes the description still reads "á", but reloading
>the settings page yields a single question mark "?" there.
>Lists overview (http://MYHOST:8000/mailman3/lists/) shows "?" too in
>Description column.

I don't know whether that's a problem in Postorius, core, or both.  You'd have
to inspect the database entry or the ORM MailingList object to see what's
stored in the core.  There are several ways to do this; if you're using
SQLite, you could dump out the database table directly.  Or you can use
`mailman shell` to get a prompt, load the mailing list, and print its
description.  Or you can use e.g. the curl command line to query the REST API.

If the value is correct in the core, then it's a display problem in Postorius.

You can also file a bug for the core and Postorius and let us sort it out. :)

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3 mass subscribe

[Barry Warsaw]

On Feb 24, 2016, at 03:50 PM, Igor Maly wrote:

>(1)Recipient of the welcome mail is "None ", which yields
>"None" as recipient name in my mail client (Outlook 2010).

That's clearly a bug.  Please file that:

https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/issues

>(2)In the welcome mail there are some links customized with maillist
>name and such. The link "General information about the mailing list is at:"
>is fine, reading "https://MYHOST/listinfo/MYLIST;. However, the following
>link "If you ever want to .. subscription page at" points to
>"http://example.com/MYADDRESS;, which is clearly wrong. Instead of
>example.com there should be MYHOST, and perhaps something more before
>MYADDRESS.

That's a known deficiency in the templating system for MM3.  There are bugs
and branches in progress to address this, but it won't happen before 3.1.

Cheers,
-Barry
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[Mailman-Users] ANNOUNCING: GNU Mailman 3.0.1

[Barry Warsaw]

I'm happy to announce the first maintenance release of GNU Mailman 3.  This
version 3.0.1 release includes updates to the core, Postorius, HyperKitty, and
mailman.client.  The release matrix of versions is available here:

http://wiki.list.org/Mailman3

You can find more information about the changes in each component by following
the version links in that overview page.

Enjoy,
-Barry (on behalf of the entire Mailman development team)


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Re: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-Developers] Mailman 3 status

[Barry Warsaw]

[resend w/proper address]

On Jul 13, 2015, at 10:47 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

- Performance measurements.  There are theoretical reasons to believe
  that under certain circumstances a large Mailman 3 under heavy
  use *might* suffer bottlenecks, but we just don't know yet.

Note that the message delivery subsystem, while modernized and ported to
Python 3, is largely inherited from Mailman 2, which means that reliability
and performance *of message delivery* should be about the same.

Over in mailman-developers we've had some discussion about performance of the
REST server, which by default gets vended by Python 3's stdlib wsgiref module
and probably would be improved by a better wsgi application server such as
gunicorn.  Follow ups to -developers on that topic please.

The information provided above is accurate to the best of my ability,
but it has not been checked by the responsible developers.  It is
provided in hope of may be of use to those considering installation of
Mailman 3.  If you're still on the fence after reading this post,
please do get more accurate information from the responsible
developers on the Mailman Developers list.

You did good, Steve! :)

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman 3: Uncaught runner exception: 'ascii' codec can't encode character

[Barry Warsaw]

On May 29, 2015, at 01:49 AM, casi.pw wrote:

I'm trying to run mailman 3 in production on a shared server. Mailman
gets its mail from exim via LMTP. First it appeared to work fine, but I
got a problem:

According to my mailman.log, mails with special characters (in this case
€, but also Germanic umlauts as ö) in their bodies are shunted and
not delivered. (Mails with special characters only in their subjects but
not in their bodies are not affected by this error.)

This looks like a legitimate bug.  Would you mind reporting it at:

https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman

Cheers,
-Barry
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[Mailman-Users] Please consider donating to the GNU Mailman project

[Barry Warsaw]

I should have included this in our release announcement.

I'd like to remind everyone that GNU Mailman has a directed donation fund set
up at the Free Software Foundation.  Please consider donating!

http://wiki.list.org/x/4816967

This year, we used a portion of our fund to sponsor Abhilash coming to PyCon
2015.  Abhilash has been a core developer since his participation in GSoC, and
has proven himself to be indispensable across a wide range of the project.  We
were beyond happy to be able to meet him in person and work with him over the
course of the sprints, and we reached the 3.0 release in large part because of
his participation at the sprints.

Your donations can help with future sprints, user testing, hosting, and more.
We're a small team of volunteers and every dollar can help.  A portion of your
donation also goes to the Free Software Foundation, so you can help two great
organizations with one donation.

Cheers,
-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman 3.0 and exim

[Barry Warsaw]

On May 01, 2015, at 08:13 PM, Thomas Stein wrote:

In $home_mailman/var/etc/mailman.cfg i have this setting:

Did you restart Mailman after changing this configuration?

Make sure `mailman info` confirms you're using the configuration file you
think you are.

Make sure `mailman conf` confirms the settings.

Cheers,
-Barry
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[Mailman-Users] ANNOUNCING: GNU Mailman 3.0

[Barry Warsaw]

Twenty years ago, I attended the first Python Workshop at NIST with about 20
other old school Pythonistas.  Earlier this month I attended PyCon 2015 in
Montreal.  PyCon is always exhilarating, but this one was incredibly special
for me personally, because my son was on spring break and joined me for the
first half of the conference.

Both the Python language and its community have grown a little bit wink in
the intervening years, but what hasn't changed is our love of the language,
and the truly amazing people we share that love with.  The Python community
really is one of the very best open source communities on the planet.

The best community inside that great Python family has to be the GNU Mailman
team.  They're all smart and cool, fun to hang out with, and fun to hack with.
With diverse backgrounds, each and every one are good friends and valued
technical peers.  As has been the case for the last few years, we've sprinted
on Mailman 3, getting lots of great work done, but never quite getting
something we were satisfied enough with to release.  The first alpha of
Mailman 3 was released a little over 7 years ago.

And so I'm here --and on behalf of Abhilash, Aurélien, Florian, John, Mark,
Stephen, Sumana, Terri, our GSoC students, and all the great people who have
contributed over the years-- to proudly announce the official release of GNU
Mailman 3.0, code named Show Don't Tell.

Mailman 3 is really a suite of 5 tools:

 * The core, which provides the mail delivery engine, the unified user model,
   moderation and modification of email messages, and interfaces to external
   archivers;

 * Postorius, our new Django-based web user interface for users and list
   administrators;

 * HyperKitty, our new Django-based web archiver, providing rich access to the
   historical record of mailing list traffic;

 * mailman.client, the official Python bindings to the core's REST API;

 * mailman-bundler, a set of scripts to make it easy to deploy the full
   suite inside Python virtual environments.

What's new about Mailman 3?  Well, lots!  Some highlights include:

 * Backed by a relational database;

 * True support for multiple domains, with no cross-domain mailing list naming
   restrictions;

 * One user account to manage all your subscriptions on a site;

 * The core's functionality exposed through an administrative REST+JSON API;

 * All passwords hashed by default, and no monthly password reminders!

 * Users can post to lists via the web interface;

 * Built-in archive searching!

and more.  Tons more.

There will be things you love about Mailman 3, and things you don't like.
You'll glimpse great possibilities and glaring holes.  You'll be excited and
frustrated.  Such is life with an all-volunteer free software project.

For the things you like, and the exciting possibilities, we encourage you to
experiment, to do wacky things we haven't thought of, integrate it with your
own tools, or just carefully go about deploying a Mailman 3 system.  Tell us
how you're using it!

For the things you don't like, we invite you to join us.  Come to the mailing
list mailman-develop...@python.org and talk with us.  Submit bug reports and
pull requests.  Help us close the gaps and make Mailman 3 better.

Whether your interests are for Internet RFCs, web site development,
operations, or you just want to find a fun Python project to hack on with cool
people, as they say, contributions are welcome.

See the release notes, as well as links to download each component:

http://wiki.list.org/Mailman3

You probably want to start with the bundler and let it grab and install all
the other parts.

More information is available at:

http://www.list.org
http://wiki.list.org
http://launchpad.net/mailman
#mailman on freenode
mailman-develop...@python.org

Happy Mailman Day,
-Barry  the Mailman Cabal


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Will slices ever become permanent?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 07, 2015, at 02:15 PM, Jeff Taylor wrote:

Well that's a shame that there hasn't been any more interest.  I have a file
documenting the changes needed, which are pretty simple, so if any interest
is expressed in this thread I'll share the details.

Any chance you could file a bug (tagged 'mailman3') and try to port your
changes to the Mailman 3 trunk?  No promises, but I'd like to look at your
work.

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list

[Barry Warsaw]

On Mar 20, 2015, at 09:52 AM, Tanstaafl wrote:

I'd really like to know which email user agents really do this.

In my experience, none of the ones used by 99+% of the worlds population
actually use do this.

I'm sure I'm proudly in the minority, but I use Claws Mail almost exclusively
and it has very good reply-to-list support.

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] The right way to reply to a mailing list

[Barry Warsaw]

On Mar 20, 2015, at 08:19 AM, Andrew Stuart wrote:

When I reply to a message on a mailing list, what is the “right” way to do it?
Should I be deleting previous thread text from my response?
Should I be adding anything in?

Of course, Wikipedia is the font of all human knowledge and truth:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Top_post

This is an interesting question for me because I think the netiquette rules
I've been using for decades may be changing.

I've always found it proper and useful to include the quoted material of the
original message, but trim the quotes to just the bit you are responding to.
I'd call this interleaved-with-trimming.

Top posting has always been a serious breach of netiquette.

What I've found interesting is that some of my correspondents (off-list)
actually *want* top posting, and find anything else confusing.  I think I
understand why in at least some cases; Apple Mail top posts by default, and
some folks just don't like to go digging around in the email to find the
answer they're looking for.  I've actually tried to accommodate that when
sending email to them.

I see more and more mailing list and group emails not doing any trimming.  I
find that incredibly hard to parse because if they *are* interleaving
responses, you have to hunt through a huge amount of text.  To make things
worse, almost the entire conversation is retained so responses to responses to
responses just clutter things up and make more noise.  I wonder if webmail
u/is like gmail (which I don't use) encourage this style.

And don't get me started on HTML-only email or some reply styles that make no
distinction between the quoted original text and the reply.  I can barely read
those.

As the article mentions, there are enough different styles in widespread use
that it's best to conform to the norms of the community.  My own feeling is
that interleaved-with-trimming is the most conducive to mailing list
discussions.

Cheers,
-Barry
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[Mailman-Users] Announcing the new wiki.list.org

[Barry Warsaw]

I am very happy to announce our new wiki!

If you go to wiki.list.org you will see our shiny new Moin-based wiki.  We are
retiring the old Confluence-based wiki at the end of February.  Until then,
you can access it at old-wiki.list.org.

Our very huge thanks go to Paul Boddie who did the amazing conversion work,
almost single-handedly reverse engineering the Confluence dump through several
iterations.  Of course, our thanks also go to John Viega, owner of the
list.org domain and Mailman's inventor for helping us get the DNS flipped
over.  Thanks too to everyone who gave feedback on the new wiki, contributed
to the old wiki, and continue to help edit this important resource for the
Mailman community.

Our thanks also go to the Python Software Foundation and the PSF
infrastructure team for providing us with the virtual machine hosting our
new wiki.

If you had write access to the old wiki and want it again for the new wiki,
you will have to re-submit a request to mailman-ca...@python.org.  Please be
sure to register with wiki.list.org and provide us with your user name.

With this conversion, I am happy to say that GNU Mailman is finally fully
hosted on free software.  While we appreciate the years of service donated to
us by Atlassian and Contegix, it's important that we set an example by
utilizing an entirely free software stack for our development and outreach.
The wiki was our last remaining non-free bits.

Let the gardening begin!

Cheers,
-Barry
(On behalf of the GNU Mailman steering committee)

P.S. We are working on the SSL certificate for the new wiki.  Stay tuned.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-Announce] Announcing the new wiki.list.org

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jan 26, 2015, at 10:10 AM, Barry Warsaw wrote:

If you had write access to the old wiki and want it again for the new wiki,
you will have to re-submit a request to mailman-ca...@python.org.  Please be
sure to register with wiki.list.org and provide us with your user name.

Paul reminds me that we did copy over the user accounts from the old wiki, but
obviously not the passwords.  You should be able to do a password reset on the
new wiki to recover your account.  Do let us know if you have any problems
with this.

Sumana and I also talked about theming recently.  Both the web site and wiki
could use an update (and I have thoughts about that) but in the meantime it
would be nice if the wiki were themed closer to the website.  If you have an
interest in this, please contact mailman-develop...@python.org.

Cheers,
-Barry


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[Mailman-Users] RELEASED: GNU Mailman (core) 3.0b5

[Barry Warsaw]

Hello friends of Mailman, and Happy New Year!

You can roll that stone
To the top of the hill
Drag your ball and chain behind you

Once again, it's time for the traditional avoid the copyright year bump
release.  I'm happy to announce the fifth beta release of Mailman 3.0 core,
code named Carve Away The Stone.

We're really quite close now, but this release is a little different.  Those
of you who follow the proceedings on the mailman-developers mailing list will
note that I have ported the core engine to Python 3.4.  While it is my intent
to release Mailman 3.0 core[*] final as a Python 3 application, some of the
details are still be hashed out on the mailing list, and in the code base.
For this reason, I am releasing two flavors of 3.0b5:

 * A release, which remains on Python 2.7
 * B release, which is only compatible with Python 3.4

The A and B releases are functionally equivalent.  There may be different bugs
in them, but they both implement the exact same feature set, with the only
difference being the version of Python they are compatible with.  Some time
early in 2015, I will be merging the Python 3 branch back into trunk, and
dropping Python 2 support.

I would encourage you to download the B release and try it out.  If you do
try both, please submit bugs for any functional differences you encounter.

You can download GNU Mailman 3.0b5 core (both A and B releases) from the
Python Cheeseshop:

https://pypi.python.org/pypi/mailman/3.0.0b5

The documentation is available online at:

http://pythonhosted.org/mailman

Mailman 3.0 is released under the terms of the GNU General Public License
version 3 or later.

Detailed changes in 3.0b5 are available here:

http://tinyurl.com/p9fpgrh

Bugs can be reported here:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman

Special thanks go to Abhilash Raj and Aurélien Bompard, who implemented the
conversion of the ORM layer from Storm to SQLAlchemy and Alembic.  Thanks also
to Kurt Griffiths for his excellent Falcon Framework package, which now
replaces restish as our WSGI-compatible REST layer.  Both of these changes
were critical in allowing me to port the core to Python 3.

Enjoy, and Happy New Year.
-Barry

[*] Postorious and HyperKitty will port to Python 3 on their own time
schedule, and may remain Python 2 applications for the final release of the
GNU Mailman Suite.  mailman.client, the standalone REST client will be a
bilingual library, supporting both Python 2 and Python 3.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman keeps creating var directories

[Barry Warsaw]

On Dec 03, 2014, at 08:15 AM, Andrew Stuart wrote:

If I run the mailman command it keeps creating “var” directories in whatever
the current directory is.

Is that intentional?

Mailman 2 or 3?  If Mailman 3, please discuss on the mailman-developers list
for now.

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Is cron used in Mailman 3?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Dec 03, 2014, at 08:14 AM, Andrew Stuart wrote:

Where can I find the documentation that explains the required configuration
for cron in Mailman 3?

Mailman 3 is best discussed on mailman-developers.  There isn't much existing
documentation on running any cron scripts for MM3.

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM3/Delivery Problem

[Barry Warsaw]

On Oct 31, 2014, at 07:47 PM, Guillaume Libersat wrote:

The problem is now fixed... I don't really know what happened but it
seems it was related to sqlite3 and database locking.

Thanks for helping, if I manage to find what really happened, I'll file
a bug report.

Very soon (perhaps this weekend) I will land the port to SQLAlchemy as our ORM
layer for MM3 in the trunk.  This is based on great work by Abhilash and
Aurelien.  There have been some reports of SQLite locking problems in MM3 and
it will be interesting to see whether the port from Storm to SA will fix that.

Cheers,
-Barry
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[Mailman-Users] Changes coming to the GNU Mailman wiki

[Barry Warsaw]

Hi folks.

I'm happy to announce some changes to the GNU Mailman infrastructure that has
been a long time coming.  For many years, our wiki hosted at wiki.list.org has
been running on a donated instance of Atlassian Confluence.  We are extremely
grateful to both Atlassian and the hosting provider Contegix for their support
over the years.

However, Confluence is not free software and because Mailman is a GNU project,
it is incumbent on the project to utilize free software throughout our
infrastructure.  Thus I am here to announce the imminent switch of our wiki to
a new Moin server.

Huge, huge thanks go to Paul Boddie for the incredible amount of work he's put
into the conversion process.  Paul has been able to import most if not all of
the content, along with most of the account names, into the new wiki.  Because
of the difference in organizing principles between Confluence and Moin, some
post conversion gardening will be needed, and eventually we'd like to improve
the style, but the conversion has really been done masterfully.

Of course, passwords have not been imported into the new wiki, so if you were
an approved author of the old wiki, you'll need to do a password reset to gain
control of your new wiki account.  However, the group permissions have been
imported, so if you were able to edit the old wiki, you should be able to edit
the new wiki.  As always, contact mailman-ca...@python.org if you need
assistance.

We're doing the last few fiddly bits of the conversion, so you may see some
down time while things fall into place.  We still need to set up the SSL
certificates and twiddle the DNS, so please be aware of this.  I'll make
another announcement when everything should be settled.

In the meantime, I've disabled write permissions to the Confluence wiki.

Huge thanks also go out to the Python Software Foundation and the PSF
infrastructure team for donating the resources that the new wiki is running
on.  Thanks too to the other Mailpersons who have helped review the moin
conversion process.

Cheers,
-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman equivalent of Yahoo Special Announcements?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Sep 19, 2014, at 02:50 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

I'm about to migrate a Yahoo Groups mailing list to mailman. Yahoo 
Groups offers four delivery modes:

- individual emails
- daily digests
- no mail
- special announcements only

The closest thing to the latter is the Urgent header, but IIRC, that only
bypasses digesting rules.  I.e. digest members will get an immediate
delivery.

It would be an interesting feature for MM3.

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Add PayPal to DNs publishing DMARC p=reject

[Barry Warsaw]

On May 06, 2014, at 02:15 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

No, the point is that a phishing mail with

From: Chase Bank Customer Service serv...@chase.com.invalid

will sail right past DMARC, as currently set up.

So too will serv...@chase.com.ru without Mailman ever getting involved, and I
bet that will be just as effective at phishing as .invalid.

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] DMARC and Reply-To lines with from_is_list munging.

[Barry Warsaw]

On May 06, 2014, at 05:17 PM, Glenn Sieb wrote:

Fair enough. So, basically I'm fsck'd. Set the lists to be
anonymous_list or set an explicit reply-to to be the lists and hope
that strips out the extraneous reply-to entry.

Yes, and sadly it's forced on us by external policies.

I must admit that I'm sympathetic to John Levine's solution over in
mailman-developers.  His implementation adds `.invalid` to the domain in the
From header.  Yes it breaks the standards and you'd still have to explicitly
modify the headers in the reply (the ease of which depends on your MUA), but
it avoids tricky interactions with the already fragile and overloaded Reply-To
header munging, and points the finger in the direction of the original problem.

I need to read that whole thread and think about it some more.  It's painfully
clear that DMARC as defined and implemented today is poison to mailing lists,
and it's a shame that you, our dear users, are the canaries.  I hope we can
have some constructive discussions with the DMARC advocates about how to
restore usability to mailing lists in a DMARC pervasive world.

Cheers,
-Barry


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[Mailman-Users] ANNOUNCE: The GNU Mailman 3 suite, beta 1 preview

[Barry Warsaw]

Hello Mailman enthusiasts!

Time and motion
Wind and sun and rain
Days connect like boxcars in a train

Another Pycon has come and gone and with it, another fantastic sprint among
the core developers.  We accomplished quite a bit, and now we'd like to share
the results with you.  On behalf of the Mailman development team, I am happy
to announce the first beta release of the full Mailman 3 suite.

This release includes:

 * Postorius 1.0.0b1 (Year of the Parrot), our new Django-based web user
   interface for list owners and list members.

 * HyperKitty 1.0.0b1, the fantastic new Django-based archiver.

 * Mailman Core 3.0b4 (Time and Motion), the mailing list engine and
   administrative REST API.

 * The mailman-bundler package 3.0b1, a helpful buildout-based tool for
   putting it all together.

We're very excited to finally be able to announce this preview of the entire
suite of tools, and we hope you'll give it a try.  As with any beta software,
we give a word of caution should you be adventurous enough to want to try it
in production.  There are surely bugs and missing features, but we feel
confident enough to encourage you to play with the system and provide us with
feedback, bug reports, suggestions, and above all, contributions!

Each project is separately downloadable from the Python Cheeseshop, and links
are provided below.  Perhaps the best way to begin is to grab the bundler,
unpack it and, follow the directions included in the bundle.  It should work
on most modern *nixes with Python 2.7.

You can download the bundler tarball from:

https://pypi.python.org/pypi/mailman-bundler/3.0b1

See below for links to the individual project pages, bug report packages, and
package documentation.  The best place to discuss Mailman 3 is on the
mailman-developers mailing list, or on IRC via the freenode #mailman channel.

Enjoy!
-Barry
(On behalf of the entire GNU Mailman development team)

P.S. My personal, deepest thanks to Florian, Terri, Aurélien, Mark, John, and
Piotr for coming to Pycon, working hard and joyfully at the sprints, sharing
friendly meals and tea shop excursions, and to Steve who wasn't able to make
it in person, and also to all the contributors to the project who make the
code better and the community an honor to be a part of.

Postorius
project  - https://launchpad.net/postorius
bugs - https://bugs.launchpad.net/postorius
download - https://pypi.python.org/pypi/postorius/1.0.0b1
docs - http://pythonhosted.org//postorius/

HyperKitty
project  - https://fedorahosted.org/hyperkitty/
bugs - https://fedorahosted.org/hyperkitty/report
download - https://pypi.python.org/pypi/HyperKitty/1.0
docs - https://hyperkitty.readthedocs.org/en/latest/

Core
project  - https://launchpad.net/mailman
bugs - https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bugs?field.tag=mailman3
download - https://pypi.python.org/pypi/mailman/3.0.0b4
docs - http://pythonhosted.org/mailman/

Bundler
project  - https://launchpad.net/mailman-bundler
bugs - https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman-bundler
download - https://pypi.python.org/pypi/mailman-bundler/3.0b1
docs - README.rst (in the unpacked tarball)


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Re: [Mailman-Users] #Mailman

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 24, 2014, at 04:37 PM, Sylvain Viart wrote:

What the hashtag #mailman stand for?

That's the channel name on the freenode IRC network we use.

https://www.freenode.net/

If you don't have a dedicated IRC client, this is a good web-based one I've
used often:

https://kiwiirc.com/

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Trying to understand charset encoding in mailman

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 17, 2014, at 03:54 PM, Laura Creighton wrote:

Now that my problem has gone from 'getting the EP footers to work' to
'understanding what exactly is going on here'.  And right now I do not
see why the charset for the lists' language has to be hard coded in
mm_cfg.py, nor why there has to be exactly one value for any given language
which mailman supports.

The big problem is that you can't have multilingual footers.  I'm hoping to
fix this in MM3 by supporting a lookup scheme that would allow different
footers (and other decorations, templates, and messages) per language.

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mirror mailing list with web forum

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 17, 2014, at 04:27 AM, Jon 1234 wrote:

When is Mailman 3 expected to be released, very approximately?

We *are* going to do a beta release of the full suite after Pycon.  I expect
there will be bugs and missing features, but we're hoping people will bang on
it and help us get to a good, stable, final release.

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Trying to understand charset encoding in mailman

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 18, 2014, at 03:07 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Getting it right by design ... well, that's why we need Mailman 3.

And really, Python 3.  The email package in Python 3.4 rocks.

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] DMARC and Gmail

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 17, 2014, at 04:34 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Sure, but that's the tradeoff that DMARC explicitly makes.  DMARC
thinks that rejecting spam and phishing is sometimes more important
than delivering legitimate mail, and that the provider of a mailbox is
the appropriate entity to make that decision.

Of course, it really doesn't help with phishing because with a slight tweak of
the domain (or even a similar enough non-ascii domain), you can still put
phishing links in the body and I'll bet you'll still fool most people who
would be tricked anyway.

It's not limited to mailing lists, either.  Anybody who has a
forwarding mailbox is at some risk (in a personal .forward this is a
simple pass-through preserving the DKIM signature so it should be OK,

Yeah that sucks too.  I sure hope none of the FLOSS projects I work on never
publish a DMARC reject.

Sigh.
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] DMARC issues

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 13, 2014, at 08:48 PM, Jim Popovitch wrote:

Launchpad is not my forte, so I'm not even sure how to push only my
modifications to LP without the upstream branch changes.  And yes,
I'll be the first to say it's a bit confusing in it's current branch.

The best way to do it is to submit a merge proposal against the lp:mailman/2.1
branch (it would be against lp:mailman if it were for 3.0).  Then Launchpad
will create an easily displayable diff, e.g.

https://code.launchpad.net/~jimpop/mailman/dmarc-reject/+merge/215591

Cheers,
-Barry

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Best solution to fix the yahoo problem?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 14, 2014, at 11:03 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Given that the whole site is at risk, should it be an option for list
owners at all?

This is a good point.  It may make sense for the site admin to select whether
some general DMARC mitigation approach is enabled for their lists or not, and
then allow the list admins to select the approach that is least unpalatable
for their users.

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] DMARC issues

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 10, 2014, at 03:09 PM, Siniša Burina wrote:

I believe there's no need to elaborate on the problems recently introduced by
Yahoo, changing their DMARC DNS record and rendering many mailman lists
unusable for Yahoo mail users.

It *is* a shame that these anti-spam defenses knowingly break mailing lists.
I say knowingly but not maliciously because their specs usually describe
the adverse affects on mailing lists, along with some mitigation approaches
(which may not have a positive effect on list usability wink).  The spec
authors are not hostile to mailing lists and would rather not break them, but
there does seem to be a fundamental conflict between mailing lists and
anti-spam approaches.

That said, DMARC was discussed in great detail last year on the -developers
list, so if you want all the gory details, check out those archives.

Mark will probably follow up in more detail, but MM2.1 implemented a feature
in 2.1.16 called from_is_list which is a ternary option for addressing the
effects of DMARC.  It has to be enabled by the site admin, and then list
admins can opt-in.  It's disabled by default for backward compatibility
reasons.  From Defaults.py:

# The following is a three way setting.
# 0 - Do not rewrite the From: or wrap the message.
# 1 - Rewrite the From: header of posts replacing the posters address with
#  that of the list.  Also see REMOVE_DKIM_HEADERS above.
# 2 - Do not modify the From: of the message, but wrap the message in an outer
#  message From the list address.
DEFAULT_FROM_IS_LIST = 0

So as you can see, two approaches are available, From: rewriting or outer
message wrapping.  Both are suboptimal for usability, but it seems like we
have no other viable option.  This is not yet implemented in MM3 because I
don't really like having to do it.  We might have no choice though.

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] DMARC issues

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 11, 2014, at 02:57 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

The straightforward thing for Mailman to do is to wrap mail from yahoo
addresses in a multipart/mixed with a text part explaining that Yahoo
is knowingly interfering with the mail service of their users, and
the mail itself in a message/rfc822 part.  As far as I know, no
component of DMARC allows digging into a message and trying to DMARC
the MIME parts.

That's what I mean by we can fix it if we make the user experience
horrible.  See all the complaints about the MIME-proper way we add footers in
some cases.

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] building a new mailman server

[Barry Warsaw]

On Mar 27, 2014, at 05:26 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Exim and Postfix both have recipes for working with Mailman 3.  It
seems likely to me that it won't be hard to get Mailman 3 and
Sendmail to work and play well together -- but nobody has done it yet.

It's certainly the intent of the project to interoperate with any FLOSS MTA.

It should be rather trivial to integrate MM3 with any MTA that supports LMTP
delivery (currently the only supported method) which includes Postfix and
Exim, and should include Sendmail afaik.  For the most part, not much needs to
be done on the Mailman side, so it's mostly getting your MTA configured
correctly.  Contributions welcome of course!

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] 'Dynamic' footer

[Barry Warsaw]

On Mar 13, 2014, at 09:40 AM, Rodti MacLeary wrote:

If there's no current solution or workaround to this is it something that
could be considered for Mailman 3?

This is planned for Mailman 3, and most of the infrastructure is there.  The
one bit that's missing is the ability to interpolate custom data into a custom
footer (we can handle retrieving a custom footer).

I've thought about how to handle the retrieval of data, but just haven't
gotten around to implementing it yet.  My thoughts would be to do an HTTP GET
call and require that to return JSON key/value data.

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-Developers] MM3 Test Hangs

[Barry Warsaw]

On Feb 26, 2014, at 02:45 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

  I have no idea what to do next,

This is clearly a bug, although I think it's relatively recent, so it might be
worth seeing if earlier revisions avoid the problem.  Yes, I can reproduce it.

The interesting thing is that the test is in rest/docs/membership.rst so these
are multiprocess related bugs.  Typically when this happens (and it will only
be with the default SQLite database, as observed by others), it's a bug in the
test, not necessarily a bug in the core.

Tests which involve multiple processes, as the REST tests do (i.e. the
foreground testing process and a background runner process) have to be careful
to release the database lock when they expect background processes to access
the database.  Releasing the lock means calling .commit() or .abort() at the
appropriate time.  The thing to keep in mind is that with Storm, even doing an
operation that results in a database query opens a transaction and thus
acquires the lock.

In the context of membership.rst, what this probably means is that somewhere
in the doctest there's a database query with a missing explicit .commit() or
.abort() before the background REST runner process executes.  Tracing through
the doctest to find out exactly where it hangs usually helps isolate where the
missing commit/abort should go.

Of course, it's possible that there's a missing commit/abort in the core, but
I rather doubt it, since that's pretty well tied into the REST runner's HTTP
transaction machinery, and other REST tests don't exhibit the hang.

Tom, if you're up for debugging it, that would be great.  If not, no worries.
The test suite hangs for me, so I'll find some time this weekend to take a
look.

-Barry
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[Mailman-Users] GNU Mailman sprinting at Pycon 2014

[Barry Warsaw]

Hello sprinters!

Once again, the GNU Mailman project will be sprinting at Pycon, this time the
2014 conference in Montreal.  I've created a placeholder page for adding ideas
about what you would like to work on, as well as our priorities.  We'll be
filling out details over the next few weeks, but feel free to start discussing
ideas here.

http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/PyCon+2014+Sprint

Cheers,
-Barry



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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM 3 and OSCON 2014

[Barry Warsaw]

On Feb 21, 2014, at 08:15 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

 2.  Is MM going to have a presence at O'reilly's OSCON 2014 in July?

I don't plan to be there, but others may. There will be a number of us
at PyCon in April https://us.pycon.org/2014/.

I won't be at OSCON either.  We'll be sprinting on Mailman 3.0 at Pycon.  I
want to emphasize two things at the sprint: working on Postorius and
Hyperkitty, and porting MM3 to Python 3.  But we can work on other things if
you have an interest.

AFAICT, the sprint page is not up yet though.

Please come and join us!
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-Developers] Kernel update breaks Mailman!!

[Barry Warsaw]

On Feb 20, 2014, at 12:07 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

I'm running Mailman 2.1.15 on a Ubuntu server, feeding into Courier MTA,
running Python 2.7.3.  I track security updates and install them
promptly when they're issued by Ubuntu.  Yesterday I updated the Linux
kernel from 3.2.0-58-generic (x86_64) to 3.2.0-59-generic and Mailman
quit working.  List posts made it through to the archives, and were
apparently queued within Mailman, but wouldn't go out.  The mail server
was working OK for non-list email. Today I backed out the kernel update
and posts to lists sent yesterday and today are going out without
problems.

I'm really quite surprised about this.  From the kernel version numbers, I'm
guessing you're running Ubuntu 12.04 LTS?  I have my personal Mailman server
running on that OS, and just performed a kernel update.  I'm about to reboot
it into the new kernel, so I'll send a test message out and see if it works.
Very odd that a kernel update alone would cause the problem.  Can you send
mail normally (i.e. outside of Mailman) and connect to your port 25?  I guess
the one difference between our setups is that I use Postfix.

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is rewriting Message-Id

[Barry Warsaw]

On Nov 13, 2013, at 02:53 PM, Roel Wagenaar wrote:

Seems to work fine, unfortunatily mailman is rewriting the Message-Id of the
injected emails.

From info on the web I was led to believe this should not happen, however I
can not find a config option to overrule this behaviour.

Is it save to alter /usr/lib/mailman/Mailman/Message.py so that the section:

if not self.has_key('message-id'):
self['Message-ID'] = Utils.unique_message_id(mlist)

is changed into:

if not self.has_key('message-id'):
self['List-Message-ID'] = Utils.unique_message_id(mlist)

That code will only add a Message-ID if the inject message is missing that
header.  It can't be involved in rewriting it.

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id, leads to duplicate message suppression

[Barry Warsaw]

On Nov 06, 2013, at 09:05 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

For lists hosted by the same Mailman, Mailman 3 might be able to
handle this by adding *both* List-Ids to the header, and only adding
the (other) RFC 2369 headers for the list(s) the user is subscribed
to.  Of course this requires personalization, but that seems to be
less and less a problem these days.

MM2.1 adds X-BeenThere headers for every list the message flows through; these
are to prevent loops.  However MM3 got rid of this header in favor of the RFC
2919 List-ID headers.  I took a quick look at that RFC just now and I didn't
see anything about how many List-Id headers a message could have, but from the
discussion it seems to assume there'd only be one header per message.

If that solution is interesting to anybody, please let me know, and
I'll check the relevant RFCs to see if multiple values are permissible
for List-* headers (and for which ones).  Code of course will depend
on Barry's permission, but I suppose he wouldn't object to providing
it as an option.

Best to file a bug so we can explore the issue and solutions.  You can then
attach a branch to the bug.

Cheers,
-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id, leads to duplicate message suppression

[Barry Warsaw]

On Nov 06, 2013, at 09:51 AM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:

 I believe that according to RFC 5322 (and predecessors) Mailman SHOULD
 add a Resent-Message-ID to indicate that it handled the message, but I
 doubt this would change the duplicate-suppression behavior of Gmail
 and MS Exchange.

This probably makes sense, so please submit a bug.

 Footnotes: 
 [1]  It's surprisingly difficult to handle duplicates truly gracefully.

Ohhh yes.

I've found 'd' in my MUA works about as well as anything. :)

 For example, I personally consider the mailing list copy to be the
 canonical copy of a post, but direct CCs often arrive more quickly.

Same here. Happens all the time.

Indeed.  It would be great if you could suppress the direct CC, but of course,
that's impossible since Mailman never sees them.  The best you can do is
suppress the list copy, but that isn't a great solution either if your MUA
knows how to do sane things based on the List-* headers.

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman reusing message-id, leads to duplicate message suppression

[Barry Warsaw]

On Nov 05, 2013, at 02:46 PM, Ralf Hildebrandt wrote:

There's not way of turning this off on Exchange

Sounds like the same bit of helpfulness that Gmail performs.

http://wiki.list.org/x/2IA9

It's a tough problem, but I think Mailman's retention of the original
Message-Ids is the right-er approach.

Cheers,
-Barry


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[Mailman-Users] ANN: wiki.list.org migrations

[Barry Warsaw]

Hello everyone,

I want to mention a few things related to wiki.list.org.

First and most immediately, our currently wiki hosting provider Contegix, is
in the process of a major infrastructure update which will cause some downtime
for wiki.list.org.  Contegix has been hosting our wiki gratis for several
years, for which we are very grateful.  Their support over the years has been
superb.

Unfortunately, the infrastructure our wiki is hosted on is quite legacy, and
in fact, we are the last organization to be hosted on it.  The time has come
to for them to retire it, but they have again graciously offered to continue
hosting our wiki gratis on their new infrastructure.  The migration process is
tricky, since we have to coordinate with Contegix's timing and our DNS changes
with John Viega (Mailman's original author and owner of the list.org domain).
Please be aware that the wiki may experience some downtime as both DNS and the
instance get shuffled around.

As some of you know, Paul Boddie has been working diligently on migrating our
current Atlassian Confluence wiki to Moin.  While Confluence has served us
well over the years, we recognize that it is inappropriate for a GNU project
such as Mailman to utilize a non-free wiki.  Moin is our current choice for a
free software wiki hosting platform, and Paul has done an amazing job on the
migration, as anyone who reads mailman-developers can see.  That work is
close, but not quite ready for production.  Stay tuned for more announcements
on that front, or join mailman-developers for more information, or if you'd
like to pitch in to help.

We will send another announcement when the Contegix transfer is complete.  In
the meantime, if you see outages for wiki.list.org, please be patient.  I hope
there won't be too much of a disruption of service.

Cheers,
-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] MM3 [was: Re: Custom Pages]

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jun 06, 2013, at 02:52 PM, Jan Lausch wrote:

What's up with MM3? 
Is there any indication on when it will be ready?

Yes, although most of the conversation happens on mailman-developers these
days.  I expect we'll see a lot of great progress on Postorius (the new web
ui) during this year's Google Summer of Code, which should bring that
component much closer to release.  We'll do a join release of the core + ui
after that.

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Is Mailman 2.1 not plushack aware?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jun 02, 2013, at 02:45 PM, Bill Cole wrote:

 There is no reason that Mailman couldn't be enhanced with a  configurable
 *option* that would allow the domain Admin to *tell* it  which
 character(s) (there was recent talk on the postfix list of  postfix being
 enhanced to allow multiple characters to be defined as  this delimiter)
 were to be used as delimiters.

There's no reason MM *couldn't* be enhanced in many ways that it never
*should* be. It's reasonably well-structured open source Python after all...

Mailman can't really trust any email address it can't verify, even on an
admin's say so.  But it will be easier to manage multiple specific addresses
in Mailman 3 so you should be able to register (and verify) any number of
extended addresses you want.

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Making a Mailman legacy archive searchable?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 12, 2013, at 01:06 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

FreeWAIS (oldie but still goodie), Namazu, and Xapian come to mind.
They all require some effort on the part of the user, though.  I don't
know of anything that you can trivially install (eg, from RPM or
.deb).

Whoosh is technology I'm looking at for Mailman 3.

https://pypi.python.org/pypi/Whoosh/2.4.1

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] nntp solution

[Barry Warsaw]

I love Gmane too, and would love for NNTP access to be pretty much an
out-of-the-box available feature for Mailman 3.  We've talked about it over in
mailman-developers, and if you're interested in working on this, please join
us over there.

On Mar 06, 2013, at 09:15 AM, jdd wrote:

I manage it myself on my server. INN is pretty hard to manage thougth, but
interface very nicely with mailman

Are there any documents available on the web for the best way to do this?

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Testing STEALTH_MODE = 1

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jan 11, 2013, at 01:14 PM, Tom Skelley wrote:

Out of interested, is there an ETA on a production release of Mailman 3.x ?

At this point, we're mostly trying to get the web ui (Postorius) feature
compatible with Mailman 2.1.  We're also working on the new archiver
(Hyperkitty).  I think the core engine is pretty stable and would invite
interested users to give it a go, but understand that it has to be managed
from the command line for now.

We will be sprinting on these components again at Pycon 2013.

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Automated Subscription Bots Inundating List Owners With Subscription Requests

[Barry Warsaw]

On Oct 29, 2012, at 02:14 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

Such an enhancement would obviously not help anyone using a currently
older Mailman package, but going forward, say into MM3, it might be a
good idea to make this information available in some such way.  I use
courier as a MTA, and courier has a courier-config executable
in /usr/bin which spits out all sorts of useful build information,
including the package creator's build-time configure args.

Mailman 3 should be much more FHS friendly out of the box.  Of course, one
important change is that we have actual ini-file configuration and not the
crazy mm_cfg.py stuff.

The ini-file contains a [mailman]layout configuration variable which names a
[paths.*] section from your configuration file.  These sections are used to
locate all the directories Mailman puts things.  By default, it uses the
[paths.dev] layout which puts everything under a local, relative 'var'
directory.  It comes with a [paths.fhs] section so switching to FHS layout
(which of course distro versions of Mailman 3 should do), you would add the
following to your mailman.cfg file:

-snip snip-
[mailman]
layout: fhs
-snip snip-

Here are the values it uses in FHS layout:

[paths.fhs]
# Filesystem Hiearchy Standard 2.3
# http://www.pathname.com/fhs/pub/fhs-2.3.html
bin_dir: /sbin
var_dir: /var/lib/mailman
queue_dir: /var/spool/mailman
log_dir: /var/log/mailman
lock_dir: /var/lock/mailman
etc_dir: /etc
ext_dir: /etc/mailman.d
pid_file: /var/run/mailman/master.pid

Of course, if you wanted to e.g. put the master.pid file in /run instead of
/var/run, you could do something like this:

-snip snip-
[mailman]
layout: slashrun

[paths.slashrun]
bin_dir: /sbin
var_dir: /var/lib/mailman
queue_dir: /var/spool/mailman
log_dir: /var/log/mailman
lock_dir: /var/lock/mailman
etc_dir: /etc
ext_dir: /etc/mailman.d
pid_file: /run/mailman/master.pid
-snip snip-

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman running very slow

[Barry Warsaw]

On Oct 24, 2012, at 11:14 PM, Adam McGreggor wrote:

On Wed, Oct 24, 2012 at 11:06:28AM -0700, Brad Knowles wrote:
 On Oct 24, 2012, at 9:52 AM, Lindsay Haisley fmouse-mail...@fmp.com wrote:
  Another very useful tool for analyzing mail issues is swaks.
 
 Now that's a tool I had not heard of before.  I'm assuming you mean the tool 
 at http://www.jetmore.org/john/code/swaks/?

swaks truly is a lovely tool.

`apt-get install swaks`

Wow, indeed.  Very cool.  That'll make a nice Mailman 3 testing tool.

Cheers,
-Barry
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[Mailman-Users] RELEASED: GNU Mailman 3.0 beta 2

[Barry Warsaw]

Hello friends of Mailman!

Sometimes we freeze until the light comes
Sometimes we're wrong and sometimes we're right

I'm happy to announce the second beta release of Mailman 3.0, code named
Freeze.  I expect the code name to appropriately reflect the stability of
the database schema and REST API.  From here on out, there should be no more
major changes or new features, just bug fixes leading to the 3.0 final
release.

You can download GNU Mailman 3.0b2 from Launchpad or the Python Cheeseshop:

https://launchpad.net/mailman
http://pypi.python.org/pypi/mailman

The GNU Mailman documentation is available online at:

http://packages.python.org/mailman/

Don't forget that alpha releases of Postorious, our new web ui are also
available:

https://launchpad.net/postorius
http://pypi.python.org/pypi/postorius

You can submit bug reports to GNU Mailman and Postorius at:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman
https://bugs.launchpad.net/postorius

GNU Mailman and Postorius are released under the GNU General Public License
version 3 or later.

Detailed changes in Mailman 3.0b2 are available here:

http://tinyurl.com/93xlt5m

Here's a summary of the most user and developer visible change:

 * The link between members and mailing lists is now the list-id, not the
   mailing list's posting address.  This is reflected in changes to the REST
   API for members, and other internal APIs.

 * Many other database schema changes have been made, compatible with both the
   SQLite3 and PostgreSQL backends, and with fully tested automatic migration.

 * passlib is now used for password hashing instead of flufl.password.  There
   is a separate configuration file for controlling the hash used, with the
   default being sha512_crypt.

 * Internally, all datetimes are interpreted in UTC, but stored in naive
   format.

 * The `news` runner is now called the `nntp` runner.  Beta testers can safely
   remove $var_dir/queue/news.

 * Many internal events have been added and renamed.

 * Archiving policies are now controlled by a single enumeration.  This change
   is also reflected in the REST API.

 * Many configuration file changes have been made, including the addition of
   the new [antispam] section.

 * The usual slew of bug fixes have been applied.

Enjoy,
-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Trying to install mm 3.0.0b1

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jun 20, 2012, at 07:45 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

I sent this to the dev list and didn't get any answers.  It's probably
more appropriate on this list anyway.

Sorry, that message came in too late in my otherwise busy day to respond on
the developers list.  I don't mind mm3 discussions on the users list, but
please be aware that I pay *much* more attention to the developers list these
days (sadly, while I still perfect my clone army), so that's probably the best
place to discuss it for now.

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Ubuntu release of Mailman

[Barry Warsaw]

On May 11, 2012, at 02:15 PM, Lindsay Haisley wrote:

I just installed, and just as promptly un-installed mailman on Ubuntu
server 10.04.4 LTS.  The offered pacakge version of mailman for this
release, which I used, is 2.1.13-1.

I have a few questions which perhaps someone could answer, if anyone
knows the thinking behind Canonical's (and the package maintainer's)
motives/reasons for what was done.

Unfortunately I can't provide any insight into the rationale, since (perhaps
ironically ;) I don't participate in the maintenance of the Mailman package.
I would just like to point out a few things that might be useful:

 - Canonical, or for that matter Ubuntu, isn't responsible for this change,
   since it comes straight from Debian.  AFAICT, we carry no Ubuntu-specific
   deltas to the Debian package. I.e. it's a straight sync from Debian in
   Precise (12.04 LTS).  AFAICT, Lucid (10.04.4 LTS) carries a couple of
   additional security updates, but this doesn't seem like the kind of change
   that would be made in a security update.

 - Probably the best way to get authoritative answers is to contact the Debian
   Mailman packaging team:

   pkg-mailman-hack...@lists.alioth.debian.org

   I don't know whether anyone from that team is on this list, or
   mailman-developers.

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-Developers] RELEASED: GNU Mailman 3.0 beta 1 and Postorius 1.0 alpha 1

[Barry Warsaw]

On Mar 26, 2012, at 04:11 PM, Andrea Crotti wrote:

Great news Barry, but just one thing, I checked now on list.org and the GNU
Mailman website and there is no mention of this release.. is that on purpose?

Not really.  The server moved recently and my keys hadn't been installed.
Looks like they still aren't, so let me ping the admins.

-Barry


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[Mailman-Users] RELEASED: GNU Mailman 3.0 beta 1 and Postorius 1.0 alpha 1

[Barry Warsaw]

Hello Mailman enthusiasts!

Use the key, unlock the door
See what your fate might have in store...

Building on the excitement and amazing progress at our sprints at Pycon 2012,
I am very happy to announce the availability of GNU Mailman 3.0 beta 1, code
named The Twilight Zone.

After nearly four years of design, discussion, and development, we can now see
a clear path to a final release.  I thank everyone who has helped us get here,
by participating on the mailman-developers mailing list, the bug tracker, in
private conversations, and code contributions, both to Mailman itself and all
the great projects it builds on.  Special thanks go to our recent sprinters,
Andrea Crotti, Florian Fuchs, Toshio Kuratomi, Daniel Mizyrycki, Terri Oda,
Mark Sapiro, and Stephen Turnbull.

While you do want to be careful using 3.0b1 in production, I hope that you
will get a copy of the code and run it through its paces.  Several people are
known to be running real mailing lists using the code base.  At this point,
the feature set is frozen, as is the database schema.  We'll use the schema
migration machinery to do any schema changes from here to the final release.

I'm also ecstatic to announce the first alpha release of Postorius, our new
official name for the Django-based Mailman 3 web user interface.  The name was
suggested by core developer Florian Fuchs in honor of a bass hero of both of
ours, Jaco Pastorius.  Postorius 1.0 alpha 1 is code named Space Farm.

Postorius is in large part based on the great work of Anna Senarclens de
Grancy and Benedict Stein who worked on a new Mailman web ui during their
Google Summer of Code projects in 2010 and 2011.  This alpha version connects
to Mailman 3.0's REST API to add and edit lists and domains, as well as to
moderate messages.  It uses Django's auth app and Mozilla's BrowserID for
authentication (a list of the current features is contained in the NEWS file
of the package).  Apart from the current state there are many more ideas left
for the upcoming releases.  There is a great team working on the web ui as
well as on a new archiver, so stay tuned, and come join us!

You can download GNU Mailman 3.0b1 from Launchpad or the Python Cheeseshop:

https://launchpad.net/mailman
http://pypi.python.org/pypi/mailman

Postorius 1.0a1 is available from Launchpad and Cheeseshop as well:

https://launchpad.net/postorius
http://pypi.python.org/pypi/postorius

The GNU Mailman documentation is available online at:

http://packages.python.org/mailman/

You can submit bug reports to GNU Mailman and Postorius at:

https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman
https://bugs.launchpad.net/postorius

GNU Mailman and Postorius are released under the GNU General Public License
version 3 or later.

Enjoy!
-Barry
(On behalf of the entire GNU Mailman development team)


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Re: [Mailman-Users] iPhone App for moderating mails

[Barry Warsaw]

On Feb 08, 2012, at 07:27 PM, Manuel Weiel wrote:

The other app wasn't updated for a long time, so I decided to start over and
make an alternative.

Wow, this is really cool.  I'm going to buy it and play with it.

-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] CSRF prevention in mailman3

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jan 29, 2012, at 06:57 PM, Anil Jangity wrote:

Will mailman3 have any security measures in the form submissions to prevent
CSRF?  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross-site_request_forgery

Mailman 3 has quite a different architecture than Mailman 2.  Specifically,
the web UI is a separate project from the core engine, and the two talk to
each other over REST+JSON.

The impact of this on the above question is two part.  First, yes there is an
official web UI being developed in Django.  Florian Fuchs and Terri Oda are
leading that work, and we will be sprinting on integration of this with the
core at Pycon 2012.  Everybody is welcome to join us of course, but please do
sign up here if you are going to attend:

https://us.pycon.org/2012/community/sprints/projects/

What this means is that CSRFs and other exploits must be addressed within the
context of Django, but none of the web vulnerabilities that still exist in the
MM2 web UI (if any) will have any impact on this.  I do suggest contacting
mailman-secur...@list.org if you have any known issues.  Mark has been
fantastic at fixing these when they're brought to our attention.

The second part of the story is that with Mailman 3, you aren't limited to the
official Django-based web UI.  Anything that speaks HTTP and JSON (or iow, the
whole freakin' web :) can be integrated with the core engine.  So if you have
your own web site, or want to build a web UI from PHP, you can integrate it
with the core engine just as easily as the official Django web UI.  We're not
using any hidden, magical, or special APIs to do this, so anything we can do,
you can do.

We welcome further discussion and participation, but
mailman-develop...@python.org is the better mailing list to use for that.

Cheers,
-Barry
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[Mailman-Users] GNU Mailman sprint at Pycon 2012

[Barry Warsaw]

Hey folks, it looks like we're going to have a quorum of core developers at
Pycon 2012 in Santa Clara, so we will definitely be sprinting on Mailman 3.
We'll be primarily working on the integration of the core engine with the
official Django-based web ui.  If you want to participate, kibbitz, or just
learn more about MM3, I highly encourage you to join us.

Remember, the Pycon sprints are free and you do not need to register for the
conference to attend.  Please do sign up on this page if you're going to join
us though, so we can plan sprint room sizes and such:

https://us.pycon.org/2012/community/sprints/projects/

If you haven't been to a Pycon before though, I highly recommend it.  There
are tons of great speakers and presentations, some great tutorials before the
conference starts, and always excellent BoFs and other events.  Attendance is
capped at 1500 though, so if you're thinking about it, JFDI already! :)

-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Thoughts about migrating to Mailman instead of Sympa (from Majordomo)

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jan 19, 2012, at 06:32 PM, Geoff Mayes wrote:

 Mailman is more mature (the max bug ID for mailman in its issue-tracking
 system is ~913,400; the max bug ID for Sympa is 8,117 and there is still no
 bug category for Sympa's latest version -- 6.1.7 -- even though it has been
 out for over 4 months)

I'm not sure bug numbers are a good indication.  Launchpad has one namespace
for all bugs, so the maximum number reflects bugs reported across all hosted
upstream projects *and* all Ubuntu bugs.

OTOH, Mailman has been around since the mid-90's.  That's good because the key
parts of the code are heavily battle-tested and (IMO) very stable.  It's bad
because some things like the web ui really need  a good updating (and this is
going on in the web-ui project for Mailman 3).

 Mailman has greater branch stability and code reliability (I noticed that
 Barry ran a pre-checkin acceptance suite for the Postgres patch for Mailman
 3 before he checked it in)

Yep.  I have a strict testing policy for mm3 code.

 Mailman has a bright and well-documented future (Mailman 3 and its bug
 tracker, source code, milestones, etc)

I think so too!

 Mailman has a more active and supportive community, which is very important
 in resolving future issues (Mailman had 150 list postings in December and
 through mid-January while Sympa had 44; I've been impressed with Mark
 Sapiro's responsiveness on this list)

Mark is *awesome*.

Does anyone know a way around the emailed passwords issue in Mailman, clever
hacks, certain plugins, or a timeline for Mailman 3's release?

As I think others have pointed out, individual users can disable password
reminders, list admins can disable them for their lists, and site admins can
disable them for the entire site (by turning off the cron job).

As for mm3 release, well, I think now that I'll be giving a talk at Pycon 2012
on it, I *have* to release it before then!  There are two blockers, that I am
attempting to solve before going into beta.  1) the REST API needs an
authentication/authorization framework; 2) we need some kind of schema
migration approach.  Come on over to mailman-developers@ if you want to
participate.

I know there is at least one site using mm3 in production today.  I have some
patches that need to be applied to improve the API performance, but I'm
confident the core engine is pretty solid.

I've written a number of Django apps using my own LDAP module, so I was also
wondering if folks think now is a mature-enough time to perhaps grab Mailman
3, its Django front-end, and hack together what I'm after?

Yes, I think now is a great time to do that.  The API is fleshed out enough
that you should be able to build a web-ui to communicate with it, or you can
help Florian and Terri drive the official web-ui toward release.

A final, random question: Mailman 3 is still in alpha, but is it stable given
that it's almost been in alpha for 4 years?

Nothing can replace actual field testing under real world conditions, but I'm
pretty confident about the core engine.  As I mentioned above, one way or
another it has to go to beta before Pycon. :)

-Barry
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[Mailman-Users] Fw: About Tokio Kikuchi

[Barry Warsaw]

I'm sorry to forward some very sad news about one of our own from the Mailman
community.  If you've ever looked at the ACKNOWLEDGMENTS file you will see
this entry in the core contributors section:

Tokio Kikuchi, Mailman's weatherman

Tokio Kikuchi was instrumental in our early internationalization efforts.  I
remember testing out one of his early patches which enabled Japanese support
in Mailman.  At a Python conference years ago, I started the branch and was
delighted to see the familiar Mailman admin pages come up in Japanese.  Of
course, I could not read it, but I happened to be sitting next to a native
speaker who confirmed that it was indeed correct Japanese.  That made me very
happy, and I'm proud of his ongoing contributions to Mailman in general and
internationalization in particular.  He will be missed.

If you would like to leave a note of your own, please see this page:

http://wiki.list.org/display/COM/TokioKikuchi

The following is forwarded with permission.

-Barry

Begin forwarded message:

Date: Mon, 16 Jan 2012 14:22:43 +0900
From: Atsuo Ishimoto ishim...@gembook.org
To: ba...@python.org
Subject: About Tokio Kikuchi


Hello,

I'm Japanese Python developer. You can see my name as an anuthor of
Python's PEP 3138.

Now, please let me inform you that Mr. Tokio Kikuchi, famous open
source developer and one of Mailman contributor, died at 14, Jan by
cancer.

http://www.kochinews.co.jp/?nwSrl=284270nwIW=1nwVt=knd

Regards,

-- 
Atsuo Ishimoto
Mail: ishim...@gembook.org
Blog: http://d.hatena.ne.jp/atsuoishimoto/
Twitter: atsuoishimoto


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[Mailman-Users] Mailman lists now available on Gmane

[Barry Warsaw]

I'm very happy to announce that at long last, the main GNU Mailman mailing
lists hosted at python.org are now available on Gmane.  This includes:

mailman-announce
mailman-developers
mailman-users
mailman-i18n

All of the archives for these lists have been imported as well.

If you're not familiar with Gmane, I strongly encourage you to take a look.
It's an amazing service for the free software and open source community.

http://gmane.org/

While web archives are available, for me, the NNTP access is the really cool
thing.  If your mail reader can speak NNTP (the good and still useful part of
Usenet :), then you just need to subscribe to the newsgroups and you can read
entire threads of discussion from the past.  After the first email
verification dance, you can even post to the newsgroup and it will show up on
the mailing list.

I'm on a personal mission to stop archiving any publicly available mailing
lists, and what this means to me is that I can just about halve my inbox!
Here are some links:

http://gmane.org/find.php?list=mailman-announce
http://gmane.org/find.php?list=mailman-developers
http://gmane.org/find.php?list=mailman-users
http://gmane.org/find.php?list=mailman-i18n

The NNTP interface is also a model of what I'd love to see Mailman 3
eventually provide by default (not to steal any thunder from Gmane).

My thanks to Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen who runs Gmame, and to the python.org
postmasters for all their help in getting this set up.

Enjoy,
-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman violates RFC 1153?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Nov 07, 2011, at 07:24 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

And if you looked at the source, you should have seen the following
comment immediately preceding the adding of the footer.

# BAW: This is not strictly conformant RFC 1153.  The trailer is only
# supposed to contain two lines, i.e. the End of ... Digest line and
# the row of asterisks.  If this screws up MUAs, the solution is to
# add the footer as the last message in the RFC 1153 digest.  I just
# hate the way that VM does that and I think it's confusing to users,
# so don't do it unless there's a clamor.

Just to mention, I haven't used VM in a bajillion years, and in fact I very
rarely use digests at all these days.  So while this was very definitely a
case of I get to make my playground work for me, I have no problem with this
code getting fixed to actually support the RFC, and not allowing a workaround
for an obscure MUA break things for everyone else.

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman violates RFC 1153?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Nov 07, 2011, at 10:39 PM, Jonathan Kamens wrote:

I have raised as much of a clamor as I intended to. I just hate the way that
VM does that is not in my mind a legitimate reason to violate the RFC. If
you agree, then you can create your own bug report and fix it. If you
disagree, then there's no point in my creating one.

https://bugs.launchpad.net/mailman/+bug/887610

Right now it's milestoned to MM3.0beta1, and I'll leave it up to Mark to add a
bug task for MM2.1.

Cheers,
-Barry
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Footer as attachment in Outlook problem.

[Barry Warsaw]

On Oct 20, 2011, at 12:13 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

I don't think Mailman 3 will be any different in this respect. The
issue is as presented in the FAQ at http://wiki.list.org/x/84A9.

Mailman 3 will work exactly the same way, for all the reasons Mark described.
AFAICT, there's really no better alternative.

-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Are Mailman's files sparse?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Aug 14, 2011, at 10:12 PM, Ivan Fetch wrote:

As part of copying our Mailman data from one box to another, I wanted to
verify: are any of Mailman's data files, sparse, E.G the .pck files and
other files in the data directory?

It looks to me like the answer to this is no.

Correct.
-Barry
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[Mailman-Users] wiki.list.org license has been renewed

[Barry Warsaw]

I think I've managed to get our Confluence license renewed, so those of you
with write privileges to wiki.list.org should be able to save pages again.  If
not, please let me know.

I haven't heard much about the Moin conversion lately, but hopefully that will
happen before the next time our license runs out.

-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-Announce] wiki.list.org license has been renewed

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jul 29, 2011, at 09:23 AM, Bradley Dean wrote:

On 29/07/11 04:56, Barry Warsaw wrote:
 I haven't heard much about the Moin conversion lately, but hopefully that 
 will
 happen before the next time our license runs out.

Still working through it - sorry it's taking longer than hoped but the 
confluence XML is, well, interesting:

  * http://lists.bjdean.id.au/pipermail/mmwiki/2011q3/67.html
  * http://lists.bjdean.id.au/pipermail/mmwiki/2011q3/68.html
  * 
 http://moinmo.in/ConfluenceConverter/DevelopmentNotes/TransformProcess#Confluence_Dump_XML

We've also had a little less input from members of the assembled team. Now 
that I think I've got the XML structure pinned down I'll get stuck in to the 
content extraction and transformation.

Thanks for the update!
-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman NameError: global name '_' is not defined

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jun 07, 2011, at 07:53 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

It appears that Red Hat has implemented a  Mailman.i18n.C_ function that
is not in standard GNU Mailman and are using it here instead of the
standard Mailman.i18n._ function.

Does anyone know why they would do that?

-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] PHP front-end for Mailman?

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jun 01, 2011, at 01:54 PM, Glenn Sieb wrote:

But it would *seriously* be awesome if Mailman could have, I dunno, plugins
for the lack of a better word, where you *could* extend Mailman into more of
a YG arena if you choose to.

I agree that this would be very cool.  I'd love to see MM3 as part of an open
source {Yahoo!,Google}Groups alternative.  I kind of see it as MM3 being the
mailing list + archiving component of a bigger system, rather than pulling
calendaring into Mailman, but I think there could some interesting discussions
about this (probably best on the -developers list though).

-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Detecting mail with multiple From: lines

[Barry Warsaw]

On May 24, 2011, at 11:29 AM, Stephen J. Turnbull wrote:

Barry Warsaw writes:

  What's the legitimate use case for multiple From headers?

Technically, there is none.  RFC 5322 requires exactly one From field,
and that's that.  http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc5322.txt, table in
section 3.6.  (Resent-From, of course, is a different kettle of fish.)

However, presumably multiple addresses in the From field (same URL,
section 3.6.2) would have the same effect on Mailman's (current)
filtering strategy.

Actually, I think MM3 could handle either case:

field_values = self.get_all(header, [])
senders.extend(address.lower() for (real_name, address)
   in email.utils.getaddresses(field_values))

-Barry



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Detecting mail with multiple From: lines

[Barry Warsaw]

On May 23, 2011, at 10:57 AM, Jay A. Sekora wrote:

However, that means that as more spammers use this technique, either
sites are going to have to start blocking mail with multiple From:
addresses at SMTP time -- and I discovered to my surprise that we *do*
have legitimate senders using that feature -- or Mailman's sender
filters are going to become somewhat less useful.

What's the legitimate use case for multiple From headers?

In MM2 it's somewhat configurable -- I just worked with someone who wanted to
remove looking at the Reply-To header -- but yes, it's not as easily
configurable as you might like (well, without modifying the source).  I'd like
to make this easier to configure in Mailman 3, but I want to understand the
use cases first.

-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Tangent: Exporting information from Mailman to the MTA

[Barry Warsaw]

On May 23, 2011, at 11:18 AM, Jay A. Sekora wrote:

That reminds me of something I've sort of been wishing for for a bit,
which would be the ability to expose arbitrary new list-specific
variables to list admins which would be stored in the list pickle.

In MM3, there are no pickles.  Everything lives in a database (SQLite3 by
default), and the intent (if currently incompletely implemented) is that the
Mailman core engine is entirely controllable and inspectable over
HTTP/REST/JSON.  So presumably, the MTA could query Mailman about anything,
and get a JSON response that should be easily parsed.  Your MTA could of
course query the database directly, but I am not currently making any claims
about the stability of the database schema, while I do intend to support a
stable REST API.

-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] RELEASED: Mailman 3.0 alpha 7

[Barry Warsaw]

On Apr 30, 2011, at 11:15 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:

Now, on my FreeBSD 8.2 Server, I am eager to try this version out.

I am following the steps.

#bin/test -vv
[snip]
test_simple_wrap (mailman.utilities.tests.test_wrap.TestWrap)
 test_two_paragraphs (mailman.utilities.tests.test_wrap.TestWrap)
  Ran 134 tests with 0 failures and 0 errors in 0.581 seconds.
Tearing down left over layers:
  Tear down zope.testrunner.layer.UnitTests in 0.000 seconds.

Tests with errors:
   Layer: mailman.testing.layers.ConfigLayer
   Layer: mailman.testing.layers.SMTPLayer
   Layer: mailman.testing.layers.RESTLayer
Total: 134 tests, 0 failures, 3 errors in 0.831 seconds.

I'm seeing the same failure in a FreeBSD VM, but I don't understand it.  I
needed to install the Python sqlite3 port, and then

$ python -c 'import sqlite3'

works fine.  But this still fails:

$ bin/py
 import sqlite3

It doesn't make much sense to me and my FreeBSD VM is pretty bare bones so I'm
having a hard time figuring it out.  My best advice would be to file a bug on
Launchpad and we'll have to see if a FreeBSD expert can help us out.

mail# bin/docs
building docs for mailman --- sphinx-build -q -c
/usr/local/mailman-3.0.0a7/parts/docs/mailman
/usr/local/mailman-3.0.0a7/src/mailman /usr/local
/mailman-3.0.0a7/parts/docs/mailman/build/mailman

Extension error:
Could not import extension sphinxconf (exception: No module named
sphinxconf)
mail#

What might be missing?

Sorry, I don't know this one either, but I can reproduce it. :(

-Barry


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[Mailman-Users] Call for volunteers: convert wiki to Moin

[Barry Warsaw]

For many years, Atlassian has provided the GNU Mailman project with free (as
in beer) wiki hosting on their proprietary platform.  This has included a free
license, free hosting, and free support.  We are very grateful to them for
this, as our wiki contains lots of useful information that help you, the
members of our Mailman community.

The current wiki was offered to us at a time when we didn't really have any
other options.  However, GNU Mailman is free software and a GNU project, so it
is not appropriate for us to be hosting our wiki on non-free software.  We
have offers for hosting a new wiki on Moin http://moinmo.in/ a very
excellent free wiki engine written in Python.

The major hurdle is actually finding the resources to do a high-fidelity
conversion from the current wiki to Moin, retaining as much of the current
feature set, layout, and history as possible during the migration.  None of
the core Mailman developers has time to do this, though we will support the
effort.  We tried, but were unable to get a slot in this year's Google Summer
of Code for the conversion work.

Now the FSF has put out a call for volunteers:

http://tinyurl.com/3gnaurt

If you'd like to help GNU Mailman in this way, please contact the FSF at
i...@fsf.org.

We will provide as full a data dump from the current wiki as possible, and
guidance for requirements, etc., and the Moin developers have graciously made
themselves available to help with the technical details.  Your conversion work
will of course be free software itself, so it will help Moin and other free
software projects wanting to do similar conversions.  I hope you'll consider
help us out with this.

Cheers,
-Barry


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[Mailman-Users] RELEASED: Mailman 3.0 alpha 7

[Barry Warsaw]

I am very happy to announce the release of the seventh alpha for Mailman 3.0,
code named Mission.  Here are some of the highlights of a release with lots
of new stuff (a more detailed NEWS.txt file excerpt is below).

* Significant improvements to the subscription model.  Users can now subscribe
  to mailing lists with either an explicit address or a preferred address.
  When a user changes her preferred address, all of her subscriptions
  automatically track this change.  All this and more have also all been
  exposed to the REST API.
* New rules for member and non-member moderation.  This effectively ports and
  updates Mailman 2's moderation rules to the Mailman 3 framework.
* Support for SMTP AUTH added.
* The default password encryption scheme can be defined in the configuration
  file, and all passwords are by default encrypted (using SSHA1).
* 'bin/mailman status' command added to provide command line status of the
  master queue runner process.
* 'bin/mailman info' now prints the REST API root url and credentials.
* Basic Auth support for the REST API was added. (thanks Jimmy Bergman)
* Python 2.7 is supported.

I'm really excited about this release because it will provide a great baseline
for our Google Summer of Code students.  If you've been putting off taking a
look at Mailman 3, I encourage you to download it and play with it.  My goal
is for a final release on 11.11.11 so there will not be too many more alphas.
Now is the best time to influence our design decisions.

The tarball can be downloaded from Launchpad or the Cheeseshop:

https://launchpad.net/mailman
http://pypi.python.org/pypi/mailman

The full documentation is also online:

http://packages.python.org/mailman/docs/README.html

Enjoy,
-Barry

3.0 alpha 7 -- Mission

(2011-04-29)

Architecture

 * Significant updates to the subscription model.  Members can now subscribe
   with a preferred address, and changes to that will be immediately reflected
   in mailing list subscriptions.  Users who subscribe with an explicit
   address can easily change to a different address, as long as that address
   is verified.  (LP: #643949)
 * IUsers and IMembers are now assigned a unique, random, immutable id.
 * IUsers now have created_on and .preferred_address properties.
 * IMembers now have a .user attribute for easy access to the subscribed user.
 * When created with add_member(), passwords are always stored encrypted.
 * In all interfaces, email refers to the textual email address while
   address refers to the `IAddress` object.
 * mailman.chains.base.Chain no longer self registers.
 * New member and nonmember moderation rules and chains.  This effectively
   ports moderation rules from Mailman 2 and replaces attributes such as
   member_moderation_action, default_member_moderation, and
   generic_nonmember_action.  Now, nonmembers exist as subscriptions on a
   mailing list and members have a moderation_action attribute which describes
   the disposition for postings from that address.
 * Member.is_moderated was removed because of the above change.
 * default_member_action and default_nonmember_action were added to mailing
   lists.
 * All sender addresses are registered (unverified) with the user manager by
   the incoming queue runner.  This way, nonmember moderation rules will
   always have an IAddress that they can subscribe to the list (as
   MemberRole.nonmember).
 * Support for SMTP AUTH added via smtp_user and smtp_pass configuration
   variables in the [mta] section.  (LP: #490044)
 * IEmailValidator interface for pluggable validation of email addresses.
 * .subscribe() is moved from the IAddress to the IMailingList
 * IAddresses get their registered_on attribute set when the object is created.

Configuration
-
 * [devmode] section gets a new 'testing' variable.
 * Added password_scheme and password_length settings  for defining the
   default password encryption scheme.
 * creator_pw_file and site_pw_file are removed.

Commands

 * 'bin/mailman start' does a better job of producing an error when Mailman is
   already running.
 * 'bin/mailman status' added for providing command line status on the master
   queue runner watcher process.
 * 'bin/mailman info' now prints the REST root url and credentials.
 * mmsitepass removed; there is no more site password.

REST

 * Add Basic Auth support for REST API security.  (Jimmy Bergman)
 * Include the fqdn_listname and email address in the member JSON
   representation.
 * Added reply_goes_to_list, send_welcome_msg, welcome_msg,
   default_member_moderation to the mailing list's writable attributes in the
   REST service.  (Jimmy Bergman)
 * Expose the new membership model to the REST API.  Canonical member resource
   URLs are now much shorter and live in their own top-level namespace instead
   of within the mailing list's namespace.
 * /addresses/email/memberships gets all the memberships for a given email
   

[Mailman-Users] GNU Mailman in the 2011 Google Summer of Code

[Barry Warsaw]

Hi everyone,

We're going to be participating in the Google Summer of Code again this year,
but this time, under the Python Software Foundation's banner.  Here's our wiki
page for GSoC ideas, mentors, and students:

http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Google+Summer+of+Code+2011

and the PSF page with more details for signing up, etc.

Application deadline for students is Friday, April 8, so please hurry!  I
believe student registration opened up today.  Feel free contact us in
mailman-develop...@python.org, or #mailman on freenode IRC.

-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] python 3 and mailman 2.1.12

[Barry Warsaw]

On Mar 17, 2011, at 04:23 PM, Hal Huntley wrote:

Or is 2.1.14 compatible with python 3?

No.  Mailman 3 will be ported to Python 3 when its dependency stack has been
ported.  Right now, some of the Zope packages are blockers.

Cheers,
-Barry



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[Mailman-Users] Wiki downtime

[Barry Warsaw]

Our hosting provider is going to upgrade our wiki instance.  There may be a
short amount of downtime.  Apologies for any inconvenience.

-Barry



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Does mailman support the Archived-At header (RFC-5064)

[Barry Warsaw]

On Dec 15, 2010, at 09:39 AM, Randy Kramer wrote:

I'm asking if mailman can be set up so it will calculate the required 
header (hash of the message ID or whatever) and insert it in a post 
before distributing the post to the list?  

I've tried googling and searching things like the NEWS file for mailman 
(at least for version 2.2x), with no luck.

I had seen words that Mailman will (i.e., plans to) support RFC-5064, 
but maybe it hasn't been implemented yet?

It's in the Mailman 3 alphas:

http://wiki.list.org/display/DEV/Stable+URLs

Cheers,
-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] mailman 2.1.14 new features

[Barry Warsaw]

On Oct 20, 2010, at 01:53 PM, Adam McGreggor wrote:

It appears that 'official' Mailman packages for lenny are a wee bit
behind upstream. 

I believe others on this list use the Umbungo packages on lenny
(Debian 5), without too many difficulties. YMMV.

(I don't really have the time to take on debian package maint, at the
moment.)

Sadly, I do not either, but I am willing to help anyone who steps forward to
do so.

-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] [Mailman-Developers] [Mailman-Announce] Mailman security patch.

[Barry Warsaw]

On Sep 09, 2010, at 06:46 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

The patch is attached. Since it only affects the web CGIs, it can be
applied and will be effective without restarting Mailman, although
since it includes a patch to Utils.py which is imported by the
qrunners, a restart of Mailman is advisable as soon as convenient
after applying the patch.

Thanks Mark!
-Barry


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Icons

[Barry Warsaw]

On Jul 17, 2010, at 02:40 PM, Adam McGreggor wrote:

# Logos:
Alias /images/mailman/ /usr/share/images/mailman/

For Ubuntu 10.04 (haven't checked Debian), it looks like this is a better
alias:

Alias /doc/mailman/images/ /usr/share/images/mailman/

-Barry


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[Mailman-Users] We have a winner!

[Barry Warsaw]

I am very pleased to announce the winner of the 2010 GNU Mailman logo
contest.  By an almost 2-to-1 margin, you voted for this logo:

http://www.list.org/images/logo2010.jpg

Congratulations Andrija Arsic!  A little bit about Andrija: originally from
Trstenik, Serbia and now studying IT technology in Belgrade, Andrija is a
self-employed, part-time graphic designer, specialising in the fields of
corporate identity (logo) design, web design, print design and branding with
the majority of his time spent designing and implementing marketing promotions
for businesses such as logos, websites, letterhead, business cards, packaging
and more. I'm glad that he also contributes to free software, as I think his
winning logo is spectacular.

My thanks and appreciation to all the artists who contributed logos to the
contest.  All the designs are very nice, and in their own way, capture the
spirit of GNU Mailman.  Thanks also to all of you who voted!

Cheers,
-Barry

Full announcement: http://www.wefearchange.org/2010/05/we-have-winner.html


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